If the Gazan's want to be left alone to go on with their lives, the only thing they have to do is STOP SHOOTING ROCKETS. Of course this is an unreasonable demand...........
If the Gazan's want to be left alone to go on with their lives, the only thing they have to do is STOP SHOOTING ROCKETS. Of course this is an unreasonable demand...........
Farzullah, can you make up your mind:
1 The palestinians are shooting rockets in revenge for their houses being demolished
2. The rockets are fired by jews posing as palestinians
Sorry, I missed that too, because it was posted below my post. I know it is silly to respond to someone who is looking only for points to criticize. There is anger amongst the Palestinians and they would believe in anyone who tells them: yes let us hurl the rockets towards Israel. Human situations are complicated and you cannot clobber someone for trying to show both ends of the spectrum. (The Palestinians are angry and there is a chance that their anger can be misused.) Let me put it this way. I have said in an earlier post that millions of Jews perished in concentration camps. Now let me give you another fact that some Jews actually spied against their brethren, to save their hides or for other purposes. Now let a critic mangle me for not making up my mind, whether they perished or spied on each other. Human situations are complicated.
Muhammad
PS. Now here???s a thought! You accused me of being inconsistent, and somehow your post appeared at a place where I could not see it easily! I will not say more.
To Nikanor: Not at all. This is a very legitimate demand and I would support that. But there is a problem. Can you really tell a Palestinian from a Jew and vice versa? It is hard, I tell you. The reason is that there is so much Israeli blood in the Palestinians that some ???pure Palestinians" might be more Jewish than some European Jews. You might even see Jewish facial features in a Palestinian, if you look carefully. So, are you sure that all the rockets are being fired by the Palestinians, and not by some fake Palestinians who do not want a Palestinian state?
In any case it is a very reasonable demand and I will support it just let me know what will the Israeli government do to solve the legitimate problems the Palestinians have. Their lands have been usurped; some of them have been thrown out of their homes. Some of their relatives are in Jail. Every now and then the Israeli army comes and demolishes whatever meager houses they have. If these problems are solved and there are still those fire-crackers being fired, I would join you in condemning the Palestinians.
Muhammad
zafrullah, any "fake Palestinians" who are in fact Jewish are figments of your demagogic mind. If there were such fake palestinians in Gaza they would have been dead by now. The Hamas don't hesitate to kill palestinian Fatah supporters, let alone jews.
As for the palestinians thrown out of their homes- Can you imagine that you will put 300 thousands jews in a refugee camp and when you come 60 years later, they will still be in the camp sitting on their asses and living off the sacks of rice UNRWA doles out?
Off course not, they would get a job, build a house and get on with it.
It takes a unique skillset to make "refugee" a profession.
BTW the israeli army only comes and "destroys homes" when these homes are used for rocket launching.
To Nikanor: By some odd coincidence your rebuttal of my comments appeared below my post. So, forgive me if I missed it and then I went to sleep and got busy in other things. At least you agree that it is often hard to tell a Jew from a Palestinian and vice versa. In a mob situation all you have to do is start something and disappear. Of course you could get caught at times, but that is a price you have to pay. (Muslim Ummah has been hurt a lot, in the past, by Jews posing as Mullahs.)
Yes I can imagine Jews as well living in refugee camps, if all the doors were closed on them. After all they lived for such a long time, in ghettos, in Europe. Some times they even had the means but they were forced to live in squalid conditions because no gentile would imagine having a Jew as a neighbor. Because of the lack of opportunity, some had turned to crime, read Oliver Twist by Charles Dickens; fiction has a way of mimicking the fact. They were despised for their greed and when thanks to the opportunity provided by industrialization they did come into money they were, at least in Germany herded into concentration camps. Thanks to the sacrifices of those Jews who perished in concentration camps, the Jews finally had the chance of coming out of ghettos. Give the Palestinians that kind of time, making sure that Israeli army does not come disrupting their lives periodically, they would prosper.
Muhammad
PS. Come now, destroying homes roads and bridges, is Israeli army's speciality. Look what they have done in Lebanon. I think they do it to cripple the opponent financially, and may be for future construction contracts.
I'm not at all surprised. Clinton believed that we couldn't have too many friends. Bush believes that we can;t have enough enemies. This same attitude is echoed in every member of the Republican party. Bush and his neo-con crowd have worked overtime and then some to make America the most hated country in the world, particularly in the Middle East. Incidentally, the longer we occupy Iraq, the more hatred we are generating. From Morocco to Indonesia, fundamentalist Muslims are having a field day recruiting new members and new terrorists. If we value our security, we'll need a total regime change. Trying Bush and Company for war crimes would help. According to recent findings of an investigation conducted by the Center for Public Integrity, Bush lied to Congress approximately 953 times. That's a federal crime. If that's not an impeachable offense, what is? We can re-establish our integrity as a nation only when we hold those who destroyed our country and vandalized our reputation accountable for their crimes
"While Jewish-only settlements in Gaza were dismantled under Ariel Sharon's 2005 disengagement plan, Gaza remains under Israeli control and is regularly subjected to Israeli military incursions. Of the over 1,100 Palestinians that have been killed by Israeli security forces since the August 2005 disengagement, the majority were residents of Gaza. Over the same period, a total of 28 Israelis were killed in attacks by Palestinian militants
Calculated based on statistics from B'tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. See http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties.asp for a detailed person by person breakdown."
Cited by Leila Mouammar 2008
How long must a people be disspossed before they lose the right of return? The Jews did inhabit the this region in the past. They where focibly removed from the land. Of course they also evicted the cannanites when they first came to the area. Could the Jews also claim a right to return? What about the Cannanites, are there any of them left? My point is that no one is going to move out completly. Both sides have been disigenuous at times. They must work together to find a solution or both peoples will be doomed to many more years of tragedy. I think both sides spend to much time on blame and revenge. What they need is reconciliation. If the leaders where responsible individuals they would put aside their grievences and work towards peace instead of reparations.
The international community needs to condemn Israel's occupation, enforce sanctions until their settlement policy is reversed and they have provided appropriate compensation to the Palestinians then negotiations can happen. How can two parties negotiate when one holds a gun to the other parties head. Comparing the capacity for violence we have what is equivalent of a man with a gun (Israel) threatening a man with a stick (the Palestinians) and we are blaming the man with the stick for the violence. You can't have peace without justice and you can't have justice without reparations.
Tim,
The violence is the product of the west. US arms and oil corporations benefit so much from all the wars there. The west planted this state in a region that did not want it and it did not belong in. I don't believe in religious books and whatever the bible says about the Jews and the "promise land" is irrelevant to me. If the Europeans truly wanted to compensate the Jews for the hardship they gave them, why not give them part of Germany? Europe wanted to rid itself of the the Jews and at the same time use the Jews as a canon fodder to interfere in the lives and future of the Arabs in order to steal their oil. This all started when Churchill decided to switch from coal to oil for his army during WWI. He needed a constant presence in the region to access oil and he used the Jews by claiming that he wanted to protect them as did France with the Lebanese Maronites and Russia with the Orthodox Christians. The Palestinians were never asked if they would accept having the Jews live among them and they feared that the Jews would replace them and that was what actually happened. Don't ask about the 6-day war because the history of the conflict does not start there as the US media tries to claim. More than 700,000 Palestinians were driven out of their homes and lands in 1948 and massacres were committed against them. Even if it were true that some of the Arab countries "attacked" israel, that is not an attack. If someone steals the house of your brother and you try to kick out the thief and regain your brother's house, no one should claim that you were the attacker.
Jafra all that you say may be true maybe a little one sided but true none the less. Does any of that matter now? The Isaraelies are not going to move to Germany anymore than the Palistinians are going to move to Jordan. Most peoples on the earth today live in a land that they took from somone else. I am not saying it is right or fair. It just is. What do we do now to end the violence? What does the average Palistinian really care about? Me I just want to be able to work and provide for my family an enjoy life. Is this not the same for everyone? Is this what the Palistinians want or do they need to some sort of revenge? My questions are sincere. I don't believe that western media accuatly portrays their point of view. I don't really understand what they want. I am also unsure of the Israelies. I really do believe that extremists have taken control and until the average people stand up to them there is little hope. I also believe religion is a big part of the problem. I must admit that while Christianity has much blood on it's hands, the Muslim faith appears to be going through a violent stage in it's history. What can we do to reconcile? Can Muslims live side by side with people that are immodest, that drink and are immoral by the standards of the Koran? If Muslim contries insist foreigners wear the veil in their contries, would it be approreate for other contries to fobid the veil in their contry?
Tim,
The violence is the product of the west. US arms and oil corporations benefit so much from all the wars there. The west planted this state in a region that did not want it and it did not belong in. I don't believe in religious books and whatever the bible says about the Jews and the "promise land" is irrelevant to me. If the Europeans truly wanted to compensate the Jews for the hardship they gave them, why not give them part of Germany? Europe wanted to rid itself of the the Jews and at the same time use the Jews as a canon fodder to interfere in the lives and future of the Arabs in order to steal their oil. This all started when Churchill decided to switch from coal to oil for his army during WWI. He needed a constant presence in the region to access oil and he used the Jews by claiming that he wanted to protect them as did France with the Lebanese Maronites and Russia with the Orthodox Christians. The Palestinians were never asked if they would accept having the Jews live among them and they feared that the Jews would replace them and that was what actually happened. Don't ask about the 6-day war because the history of the conflict does not start there as the US media tries to claim. More than 700,000 Palestinians were driven out of their homes and lands in 1948 and massacres were committed against them. Even if it were true that some of the Arab countries "attacked" israel, that is not an attack. If someone steals the house of your brother and you try to kick out the thief and regain your brother's house, no one should claim that you were the attacker.
Hahahahahaha!!! You've obviously never even stepped foot into the Middle East! Either that or you're in serious need of mental aid. There are plenty of churches in the Middle East and synagogues. Sheesh, you're absolutely insane and I therefore can no longer be bothered to justify your absolutely ludicrous statements with a reply.
And for your information, I'm actually British, I've just decided to live in the Middle East as it's such a warm and welcoming place.
The biblical fanatics (like you) fuel the terrorist state that is Israel. Israel needs to do ONE thing; accept just peace, and not want the small "piece" of land that is left over the Palestinians.
As soon as Israel stops it's reign of terror, destruction, and killing of innocent civilians, violence will stop. But it is unreasonable to expect humans beings to "bend-over" and let Israel do what is wishes to them, attempt to annihilate them, as the Nazis tried to do to the Jews.
Justice brings peace, terror begets terror!
ReeRee i would like to hear your suggestions to resolve the current situation. You appear to be Palistinian or someone sympathetic to their cause. The reading I have done is contridictory as to who is at fault. As near as i can tell both side have behaved rather badly. What is your pont of view on 6 day war? Where the Arab contries working together to destroy Israel? Or was it just Israeli aggression? Most of that really does not matter now. The violence needs to stop. I believe that most of the people in the region just want to work and live a normal life. Is it possible for Israelis and Palistinians to live side by side? HEY DIENNA!! JEWS AND ARABS COME FROM ABRAHAM. SO THEY ARE BROTHERS. My personal belief is that the violence in the mid East is the product of extremeist on all sides, including the USA.
This whole page is dumb. Palestinians do not want democracy.
Jordanians and Egyptians do not want Palestinians.
Israelis do not want Kassams fired at them.
Palestinians do not want shitty lives, but prefer them to a life without land they lived in 60 or so years ago.
SOLUTION?
Build bigger fences, and wait a while.
(What is not a solution? Allowing 9 million people- inc. grandchildren of those who walked away or were driven out- to re-enter theland at present known as Israel as citizens, and expect the place to function. Think civil war, think 'de-stabilisation' (i hate that word so much), think blood soaked streets. No, THAT is not a solution).
To Jafra,
Stop been judmental.....I am not jewish nor intend to be...yet i do think they are far more civilized than most of us but specially and certainly more civilized then the muslims. We must accept reality as it is and the reality is no matter where you turn to, the truth is christianity is a distorted copy of Judaism teachings and Islam is a bastardized copy of jewish-teachings...if these two would just stop so badly wanting to surpasse the ORIGINAL douctrine we all would certainly be better off. One difference though...christianity doesnt go by the sword ! as islam do. And as for your scientific mind...brush, brush it a lot and you may get there! a long long way to go. Good luck!
Ah, REFLECTIONs, i used the word, not you, and it means: All that what you say about others is what you are! so there you go...back and read all you wrote, and that is what you are! .....if u didnt know...that! learn...
diena, I never used the word "reflections" in my comments. Have you lost your mind? I'm a scientific woman and I don't believe in myths that were made up by old fools who wanted to entertain little kids in cold winter nights. I really don't want to follow any religion because religions are made by men to serve them. Why do you think it would be great for all of us to be Jews? Do you think women would accept to be forced to say in the morning, "thank you god for creating me what I am," while a Jewish man says, "thank you god for creating me a man?" Religion is not for me and especially yours that is misogynist and carries hatred for the followers of other religions. Don't you Jews say, "thank you god for being a better god than theirs?" and you say that after you put down your torah and turn to the side? I have a friend who abandoned Judaism just for that phrase. You are separatists and haughty and think that you are better than everyone else because you believe that your god and your religion are better than the others'. ReeRee is right. Spew all the ignorance you want and don't expect an answer from me. Your comments have no substance or value in any intellectual debate.
To ReeRee,
good luck with your life in middle east, and be sure to become a muslim! one less stupid british in britain and one less suicider-bomb...in the world, when finally the MAD MAD MAN ......arrives to turn this dread middle east place into ashes! Only Jews will be saved. That is as certain as are all Stars in Heaven....and the Sun that shines day and night, tireless! Stay in middle east, please, that's what you deserve!
To Jafra,
REFLECTIONS??? read about reflections to understand yourself....my goodness! Look who's talking...but i refuse to believe that i serve as a mirrow to you. And, one more time: a reminder only: ISRAEL HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED WITH IT's CAPITAL JERUSALEM and all it's Jewish Kings, and It's TEMPLE and..and..and...the list is limiteless. All that was long long LONG BEFORE Islam or you came along. So, be reasanable and accept it that Israel the land of the Jews has been there before christianity, before islamism or any other religion as matter of fact....Jews are not Arabs...has never been...even their language is not the same. Jews are hebrew people not semite people...many semite people converted or became followers of the hebrews faith...but that doesnt mean...Jews originally are semites, they are not, they are hebrews...as Abraham was. And for your knowledge i am not a jew-hater. I am not a muslim much less a german. In fact, i tell you: wasn't for Jesus we would all be jews. How wonderful that would be. How wonderful this world would be! ...if half of the peoples in this world be Jew...leastly we would have less people envy them/us ! and that would make it easier for all of mankind. For envy is the evil that is!
There is a lot you are missing rnmisrahi, targeted killing are extra-judicial killings (it is an illegal activity according to international law and laws in most - if not all - countries) you can't just go around murdering people no matter how well targetted. AND Israel doesn't recognised Hamas, AND Israel has been systematically killing Palestinians at at a far greater number than the other way around. I am no apologist for Hamas or anyother non-secular regime, but let's be honest, Israel's clear intention is to continue to move Palestinians off their land to have a racially pure Israel. The only reason Israel supplies anything to the Palestinians is because they have isolated and impoverished and control Palestine. They have stolen the productive land, monopolised water and bulldozed orchards and homes. Israel may have pulled out some troops out of some parts of occupied Palestinian territory - but they are continuing to expand. Apartheid South Africa remains a good analogy for present day Israel, but Israel is probably worse.
And if you want to talk about the responsibility of Democracy, how responsible were the Israelis in electing Ariel Sharon who was in charge of the militia that massacred over 17000 people in Lebanon in the early eighties. The Israel government is absolutely a terrorist state.
There are so many inaccuracies in your reply I don't know where to start.
Palestinians are the ONLY refugees that:
1. Needed to claim having lived in the land for 2 (TWO) years to be considered refugees.
2. Their descendants are considered refugees as well.
Regarding "productive land," you probably mean the land left by the 8,000 expelled Jews from Gaza, which was destroyed by Palestinians. Read a bit more about what that "productive land" was like before Jewish settler bought (yes bought) it.
Racially pure? What does that mean? I'm not white and I'm Jewish. Jews have been persecuted for 2,000 years because we don't have any links with other nations. This is reflected in the UN... and in forums like this one.
If you're really interested in understanding what goes on in the ME, read Michael B Oren, Efraim Kirsch, any honest historian. See what children are being taught in Hamas-run schools.
What is Israel expected to do with people that lost 4 wars trying to destroy it (clear intentions voiced by their leaders in (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973). Is there a historic precedent to this? Is Israel expected to ask for forgiveness for not loosing a war (that one would be the last one) and capitulate?
The 1948 vote to create Israel and Palestine was rejected by the Arabs. Transjordan became Jordan when it took over the West Bank. The majority of Jordan's population is Palestinians. Why they don't claim being refugees? Because Jordan is Palestine. If all they want is the land lost in 1967. Why were there terrorists acts from 1948 to 1967?
Can we be confident that giving away that land they will be peaceful? Or will we have another Gaza all along Israel with Tel Aviv and Jerusalem at close range?
Would the US consider rockets from Tijuana a minor problem?
And these are only just a few arguments people miss. But truly, the only solution is in education. As long as Arab maps don't include Israel and we're treated as the Zionist enemy and mindless people who think they are righteous keep condemning Israel. The violence will stop, because make no mistake, the Jews now days are not the lambs that the world knew 100 years ago, and that may be what many people cannot stomach: a fighting Jew.
I don't understand, Hamas doesn't recognize Israel. Its clear intention is to destroy it. It backs this up by firing Kassam rockets to civilians. Israel tries to pinpoint the terrorists that fire such rockets and it is obligated to supply electricity, fuel and good to the same entity that actively wants to destroy it. And all this is after Israel pulled out of Gaza, leaving 8,000 of its own citizens homeless. Am I missing something here? What is this babble about SApartheid?
There are so many inaccuracies in your reply I don't know where to start.
Palestinians are the ONLY refugees that:
1. Needed to claim having lived in the land for 2 (TWO) years to be considered refugees.
2. Their descendants are considered refugees as well.
Regarding "productive land," you probably mean the land left by the 8,000 expelled Jews from Gaza, which was destroyed by Palestinians. Read a bit more about what that "productive land" was like before Jewish settler bought (yes bought) it.
Racially pure? What does that mean? I'm not white and I'm Jewish. Jews have been persecuted for 2,000 years because we don't have any links with other nations. This is reflected in the UN... and in forums like this one.
If you're really interested in understanding what goes on in the ME, read Michael B Oren, Efraim Kirsch, any honest historian. See what children are being taught in Hamas-run schools.
What is Israel expected to do with people that lost 4 wars trying to destroy it (clear intentions voiced by their leaders in (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973). Is there a historic precedent to this? Is Israel expected to ask for forgiveness for not loosing a war (that one would be the last one) and capitulate?
The 1948 vote to create Israel and Palestine was rejected by the Arabs. Transjordan became Jordan when it took over the West Bank. The majority of Jordan's population is Palestinians. Why they don't claim being refugees? Because Jordan is Palestine. If all they want is the land lost in 1967. Why were there terrorists acts from 1948 to 1967?
Can we be confident that giving away that land they will be peaceful? Or will we have another Gaza all along Israel with Tel Aviv and Jerusalem at close range?
Would the US consider rockets from Tijuana a minor problem?
And these are only just a few arguments people miss. But truly, the only solution is in education. As long as Arab maps don't include Israel and we're treated as the Zionist enemy and mindless people who think they are righteous keep condemning Israel. The violence will stop, because make no mistake, the Jews now days are not the lambs that the world knew 100 years ago, and that may be what many people cannot stomach: a fighting Jew.
diena, I guess that I was drugged when I attended two Christian weddings in two churches in Jerusalem and Bethlehem. Perhaps you are the one who is drugged because you forget that the Church of Nativity was attacked and raided by zionist troops and many mosques were either blown up or turned into bars like the Safad one that was later on turned into a movie theater and a bar. You jabber a lot and provide little evidence. Have you been to Jordan? Churches are constantly built there. Abu Mazen's spokesman, Nabil Abu Rdeineh is a Christian with so much power. Tareq Aziz, Saddam's closest aide and his foreign minister was a Christian. To your dismay, the first Iraqi government that was established after the fall of the monarchy, had a Jewish minister in it. Stop projecting on us and try to provide some proof instead of spewing hatred.
To: Miss,
Please, do not recomend evil reading to anyone! And, it is usuless arguing with islamics, they think they are always right...i repeat: In middle east it is not only forbiden for christians to worship their religion....all ancient churches have either been burnout, distroyed or converted into museums, moques or whatever! There will come the day that will happen to all your Mosques in the Western part of the world,,,but by then we wont be around...but the MAD MAD MAN, will ! Thank goodness!
nikanor, the refugees do not want to settle down anywhere but their original homes they were expelled from in 1948. I know that you hate this fact because it shows the savagery of the zionists who acted as bad as the nazis. You would want us to pack and leave and start somewhere else so that there wouldn't be any proof. You accuse us of being lazy when in fact, we are the most educated among all the Arabs. The US whites accused the enslaved Africans of being lazy meanwhile, the Africans were doing all the work while the lazy whites were sitting on their asses and shooting and torturing any enslaved African that refused to be enslaved. Your argument is the typical racist argument that was used many times before and was proven wrong a gazillion times. Say whatever you want, but history shall prove you wrong when all is over and that won't be long. The suicidal zionist state was born out of wrong and carries within it its own destruction at its own hands and that is why many israelis are now seeking other citizenships worldwide to escape when the *** hits the fan.
Targeted killing is wrong (whether it is the US, Israel, Australia etc) as is killing civilians (whether it is Israel, US or Hamas). As for "terrorism condoning language" - the only people on this site condoning terrorism have been the apologists for Israel. No one else is supporting target killings or any other form of aggression. I don't support suicide bombing or rocket attacks or any sort of violence against innocent civilians. And, if you also don???t support these activities, then you have to condemn Israel for the actions. Not in the past ??? Now, on a daily basis. Anything else is hypocrisy.
Sharon has never been cleared of his involvement and using Christian Arabs to assist in a slaughter doesn't absolve anyone of guilt (it would be like saying that the US isn't to blame for the contras in Nicaragua). The point is that Israel is occupying Palestine and until it withdraws its troops to the original boundaries set after WWII it is engaging in the occupation of another country, which is wrong ??? it???s that simple (and argueing that it is OK because the US does it, shows me that deep down you also know what Israel is doing is wrong). Why do the victims (of imperial aggression) have to acknowledge the legitimacy of their occupier? Yassir Arrafat did that and look what the results were.
""As for "terrorism condoning language" - the only people on this site condoning terrorism have been the apologists for Israel.""
NONSENSE.
You poor thing, diena! I truly feel sorry for you for the amount of hatred and ignorance that you exhibit here. People like you die from the hatred in their hearts and bad karma always comes back to haunt them. Your info stems from the legends in the bible that no decent historian recognizes as a historical document. The little scattered tribes that you claim were states that existed 2000 years ago were documented by israeli archeologists who found little evidence to prove that there were such Jewish kingdoms. Furthermore, you really don't know the history of the land of Palestine. I have no doubt that I have some Jewish blood in me as a Palestinian since many Jews who lived in Palestine converted to Islam after Palestine fell under Muslim rule. If there is anyone that is truly anti-semitic, it is the zionists who oppress the Palestinians who are semites as Arabs and Jews. My family has lived for hundreds of years in Palestine and we have such deep roots that you can never have since you must have come from some western country or Russia and are a Khazar convert and not a descendant of the true Jews who might be my ancestors. Whether I use the Palestinian argument or your argument that Jews have a right to the land, I win since both arguments suit my case. :-) You can demonize us all you want, but you really sound like anti-Jews who constantly blame the Jews for everything bad. People like you turned the Palestinians into the new Jews of the world and unfortunately for you, you make Hitler laugh in his grave because you make him succeed in what he failed to do. A physical death is not as bad as the moral one that you succeeded in doing on his behalf. What a shame!
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