It's about time everyone takes another look at Abraham Lincoln and all the other anti-communists like Ronald Reagan and Joseph R. McCarthy. After all it was a Marxist Lee Harvey Oswald and a communist Sirhan Sirhan who knocked off the Kennedy Brothers. Now check out this awesome book I just read at Amazon.com!
The Epoch Point by Spencer Zimmerman is a religious historical conspiracy thriller that follows evil throughout the existence of mankind, revealing the constant conflict between God and the devil, good and evil. Robert Davis is a young Airman fresh out of Air Force basic training who, after being held captive in China, suddenly finds himself unraveling the most immense conspiracy in history. On duty during the 9/11 terrorist attacks, he soon uncovers hidden facts suggesting Russian and Iraqi involvement. While exploring abandoned military barracks at Kessler AFB in Mississippi, Davis and his friends discover the diary of Lee Harvey Oswald. Suddenly the Airmen find themselves the target of mysterious agents. As the clues surface, an evil emerges powerful enough to rewrite the entire history of humanity, not to mention kill two of his good friends. Before long the conspiracy takes on a supernatural form, marked by lightning, tornadoes, hurricanes, and volcanoes, the wrath of God. Davis finds himself torn by the unbelievable realization that God has a message for him. Nothing could prepare him for the final suspenseful twist the story takes, a Da Vinci style revelation that reaffirms his belief in Christ.
here's the link:
http://www.amazon.com/Epoch-Point-Spencer-Zimmerman/dp/1934248932/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210731193&sr=1-1
RELIGION
Into the Future
Mormons prepare to name a new prophet, and confront the challenges ahead
Jan 28, 2008 | Updated: 2:22 p.m. ET Jan 28, 2008
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Posted By: The_epoch_point @ 05/20/2008 10:43:43 PM
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Posted By: davmont @ 04/17/2008 3:15:39 PM
El es un profeta que realmente ha sido preparado. Dirigirá Los asuntos de la Iglesia muy bien, porque ES UN Profeta del Señor.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/28/2008 10:12:30 PM
Why do mormons change the fall of man into a "necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us"? Gospel principles p 33 Book of Mormon - 2 ne 2: 25; Doctrines of Salvation vol 1 pp 114-115.
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Posted By: LDSkid @ 03/04/2008 5:52:56 PM
If we didn't have the fall of man then we couldn't be saved by jesus. The fall of man set it all up that we would be born and then we would die. By us dying it set it up so when jesus came and died and was resurected we are able to do the same. We came here to prove that we accept gods plan and are willing to work to return to his presents. The devil temptes up so that we can prove that we are not like him and can over come evil actions, thoughts, or words. We are taught this in primary, young men and womens, sunday school and definetely in Aaronic and Melkizedek Priesthood. We receive great blessings when we obey gods commandments and if we truly return to him we will live with him for all of eternity.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 03/08/2008 10:35:07 PM
Bible said Levites were the priests are mormons from line of Levites ?
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Posted By: AH1986 @ 04/16/2008 6:04:51 PM
Some could be......was christ from the line of Levites? Nope. He was of Davidic decent, (and the rightful king of the Jews as a side note). Did Christ bring a new covenant with him to replace the doctrine of "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" along with the higher priesthood? Yes. was this higher priesthood authority passed onto the Apostles who in turn passed it down to others who were in the service of God? Yes. Now, I can't make you believe that the LDS history is true, but we claim and believe true that Joseph Smith recieved this higher priesthood, which held the keys of authority over the aaronic (levitical) priesthood, from the resurrected beings of Peter, James, and John. Joeph Smith in turn was commanded to bestow this priesthood to others who were called into the service of God as were the apostles and preachers of old. The fact is this is what I believe to be true. I can't prove it's true, and you can';t prove it untrue. Scream yell, whine till you're blue in the face, but know this. I've seen the good things that have come through my faith and belief in the resurrected Christ, and through heeding the coucil of those whom He has chosen to lead his church in his name. No one can take that belief from me, not you or anyone else.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 03/14/2008 10:04:42 PM
In conclusions Mormons have right to believe what they want but my question is why is there so much secrecy and coverup? Why believe a lie as proven as such ? If you try to dismiss anti mormon for just being anti mormon you are under mind control. Bottom line is Jesus died for mankind He reveals this to us in old testament and fulfills it in new testament with new covenant of grace not of works lest any man can boast see ephesians 2.
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Posted By: LDSkid @ 03/04/2008 5:42:19 PM
Because with out the fall of man we wouldn't die and there for we couldn't be saved. We also wouldn' t be tempted and there for couldn't prove that we have the ability to accept christ, god, or their gospel. so by way of the fall of man we are able to return to god knowing that we are truly Gods children have have the right to belong in the Celestral Kingdom with him and his son for all eternity.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 03/08/2008 10:33:23 PM
How many changes have their been in Joseph smiths History ? Why did Brigham Young have to revise it doezens of times ? And why wont the mormon church let everyone see the original manuscripts ?
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Posted By: LiberalMama @ 02/26/2008 12:49:16 PM
Wow - I thought there might actually be discussion on the actual article but instead its just a bunch of people bashing the Mormon Church and a bunch of Mormons trying to defend it. How typical. What I really hate is people who bring up that the church didn't allow blacks into the priesthood until 1978! Do those same people bring up the fact that other churches had segregated congregations or had pastors that were members of the KKK, that some "Christians" believed in White Supremacy or used their religion as an excuse to oppress and sometimes even use violence against blacks? No - of course not. Just the big bad mormons who wouldn't let them hold the priesthood, but allowed them to participate fully in every other way and never had segregation. I'm not even mormon anymore and this pisses me off!!!!
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Posted By: Zigzig @ 01/28/2008 4:50:31 PM
Hey nofail. I'm glad YOU think you have a loving Heavenly Father. Unfortunately you choose to turn a blind eye to the fact that until 1978 you loving HF did not look upon Black people with the same love. He did not allow them to "hold his power" until 1978. The loving God I believe in has never cared what color any of His children are.
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Posted By: LiberalMama @ 02/26/2008 12:42:53 PM
And at the same time that the LDS church didn't allow blacks to hold the priesthood, what were other churches doing? Oh, that's right, they had segregated congregations, some of their members belonged to the KKK - but we don't bring that up and through it in their faces because they're "true Christians" What a bunch of bs. I'm not even mormon anymore and these anti-mormon threads still piss me off!!!
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Posted By: Ribaudengo @ 01/28/2008 5:50:37 PM
In the Old Testament Jehovah restricted who held His power among the children of Israel and it was based on race. He only permitted the Levites to hold His power. It seems God did care who held His power long ago. Do you believe in that God? Nevertheless, just as Moses and Noah were prophets so was Gordon B. Hinckley. Isn't wonderful that God continues to send prophets today?
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Posted By: Ribaudengo @ 01/28/2008 5:41:47 PM
So why did Jehovah only give the Levites priesthood power in the Old Testament. If you believe in the OT then you know that God limited who could hold His power.
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Posted By: leinva @ 02/06/2008 1:12:40 AM
Wow. Typically an event of this nature leads to messages of condolence and respect for the departed. What is going on here is decidedly un-Christlike. Especially the posts from HolyRoller and SayItBoldly. I don't believe Jesus's message is to hate and cause discontent. Both of you are no better that Islamic extremists who kill people to conform with their beliefs. Pull out your New Testament and re-read it. All of it. When you find any passage that says Jesus advises anyone to do what you two are doing, please share it with the rest of us. There is something seriously missing in your lives if you harbor such hatred against a people and a religion that you so obviously know NOTHING about. You have taken everything regarding the Mormon faith out of context and you have interpreted the Bible to your own accord. For those of you who are engaging these two clowns and anyone else like them, sometimes the best thing to do is to just ignore them. You'll never win a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent and the more they ramble on about doctrine that they are completely ignorant of, the more foolish they look. Some posters have asked sincere questions and they deserve answers, but HolyRoller and SayItBoldy need to get some kind of outside interest because several days of posting here just for the sake of creating turmoil is ridiculous. Don't take their bait anymore. They aren't worth our time or our consideration. For those of you who admonish the Mormons for the belief that they can become Gods, I suggest you read A Course in Miracles, A Return to Love by Marianne Williamson, The Eurantia Book, and A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle - Oprah's newest Book Club selection. None of them are related in anyway to the Mormons or Mormon Doctrine, but all of them share that teaching.
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Posted By: truthsayer2 @ 02/10/2008 1:52:37 AM
Very well said! Here are some more intersting facts that these anti momrons might want to consider:
1. Christ organized the church - Eph. 4:11-14
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ Eph. 5:23
3. The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets. Eph. 2:19-20
4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church. Eph. 4:11-14
5. The true church must claim divine authority. Heb. 5:4-10
6. The true church must have no paid ministry. Isa. 45:13, 1 Peter 5:2
7.The true church must baptize by immersion. Matt. 3:13-16
8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Acts. 8:14-17
9. The true church must practice divine healing. Mark 3:14-15
10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct individuals. John 17:11 and John 20:17
11. The true church must teach that God & Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone. Luke 24:36-39 and Acts 1:9-11
12. The officers must be called by God. Heb. 5:4, Exodus 28:1, Exodus 40:13-16
13. The true church must claim revelation form God. Amos 3:7
14. The true church must be a missionary church. Matt. 28:19-20
15. The true church must be a restored church. Acts 3:19-20
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead. 1 Cor. 15:16 and 29
17. By their fruits ye shall know them. Matt. 7:20
Why are these things important? Hebrews 13:8
These are found in the Bible.
Jesus Christ was the example that we, everyone on this earth, need to learn to follow. He was treated horribly , yet was loved by many. Nothing seems to have changed since his time. But I do wish that people would be more tolerant & respectful of everyone, regardless of their religion. If people would be kinder to eachother, what a wonderful world we could have! God Bless.-
Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/10/2008 6:32:36 PM
1. Christ organized the church - Eph. 4:11-14 YES HE DID AND AS GOD HE SAID THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL MTHW 18 V 16- HE IS AUTHOR AND PERFECTOR OF OUR FAITH...HE IS THE CORNERSTONE OF THE CHURCH...SO THE CHURCH CANNOT FAIL BECAUSE HE IS GOD...IT DOESNT DEPEND ON MAN - JOSEPH SMITH IN PEARL OF GREAT PRICE SAID THEY WERE ALL AN ABOMINATION...AND EVERYONE CORRUPT. SOMEONE IS LYING HERE AND ITS NOT JESUS.
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Posted By: nyborn @ 02/11/2008 12:42:33 AM
Than please explain another verse to me, if the church was to never fall than what does 2nd Thess. Chapter 2:2-3 mean? What is it talking about? This falling away?
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/11/2008 1:35:50 AM
Well we need to be careful and not build doctrine aroudn one isolated scripture in a vacuum. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against his church in mtthw 16 18. This falling away doesnt prove mormonism is valid. Certainly during Joseph smiths time Charles Spurgeon rose up and preached the gospel to the world and many missions were established and continue today. Before Smith, Jonathon Edwards preached and started a revival in America. Joseph Smith has an entirely different concept of God and salvation plan. Its a new gospel not a restored one. The bible is trusted due to prophecy of old testament prophecies concerning Jesus. The old testament is proven to be valid because 300 yrs before Jesus, Alexander the Great conquered Judea and had everything translated to greek includintg the old testament which had 300 prophecies regarding Jesus. So we stand on irrefutable external evidence proving Jesus is supernatural God and only God can beat the grave which Jesus went on to do and then in turn said "'I am the Resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: AND whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." Real simple, really amazing...yet blinding to world who wants to be creditted with their own doing for their own glory due to their pride, our biggest sin.
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Posted By: nyborn @ 02/11/2008 5:31:04 PM
Well, I see what you are saying but this scripture saying that there has to be a falling away before Jesus returns, doesn't this point to an apostasy?
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/11/2008 7:37:58 PM
Well there has been a general apostacy due to liberal theology of churches that have gone from orthodoxy to denial of basic tenants of christian faith. This is the fruit of the higher criticism movement of bible which applies standards to bible that are unreasonable and are not applied to other works of antiquity yet are unquestionably authentic. God says he will send a delusion to fool the elect if that was possible so that could be coming down the pike.
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Posted By: nyborn @ 02/11/2008 10:09:14 PM
I would agree on the fact that both false prophets and teachings have appeared. (ex. David Koresh, Heaven's Gate) Those are extremes, but the idea is what I'm pointing to. I just don't think that God would purposedly attempt to mislead us. I think that still we must use the test of the Holy Ghost or Spirit, so when we are presented something study and prayer will lead us right. Thats our ability to choose to follow or not. You are saying up above that we're fallen once we are born. I don't think we are fallen until we've sinned, which we all do. The only way back to God is through his Son and the Atonement. I want to say it's nice to talk and not just argue.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/12/2008 7:36:31 PM
In response i would defer to bible which doctrine of Original Sin is gleaned from....all have sinned no one is good god looked down on earth....so its about can we trust the bible and what it says...the lds says no we cannot only where its translated correctly and jos smith made 600 "corrections" to kjv bible. So its a matter of whose report will you believe? Do i believe God can reveal to man his Word as however he wishes and since he is sovereign over man preserve it from corruption? I believe that is not outside of what God can do. Gods plan is right on track despite the chaos of mankind and evil of the world. Despite the rising of evil nations and evil kings even in Israel nothing has prevented God from sacrificing his son for whole world as he said he would in the old testament way way ahead of time. We knew where Jesus would be born and where is was from. How canthe old testament state that one man be from out of egypt, bethelehem galilea jerusalem and a nazarene..i could supply you with verses or you can google it? This is one example of how the old testament is trustworthy. We know it was in existence at least 300 yrs before christ due to Alex The Great helenzing palestine and having everything written into greek including new testament. Alex the Great is also predicted in bible...So its a matter of trusting what God said and how he defines atonement which is defined differently in Mormonism. Atonement in christianity means Jesus makes an exchange so that we can have his righteousness for our sin. That is how a christian pleases their heavenly father ...so when God sees the person he sees christs righteousness (romans 3). Its a settled issue...at moment of faith....supernaturally belief, a gift from God pierced into man by Gods word which will not return void. The great exchange. And its free. Our works will be judged as bible teaches but our salvation is settled. Mormonism teaching on Atonement is a general atonement for everyone which denies the existence of hell which of course is outside christian orthodoxy. There are counterfiet spirits in this world and mormonism was never checked because of the laws of america allow anyone to believe what they wants which is why America has been labelled kingdom of the cults. Applying pascals wager to the situation..worse case scenario if im wrong i still go to heaven but if you are wrong you are not. But the good thing is we can prove Christianity as fact independently objectively thru manuscrip archaelogical scientific and historical and prophet evidence we stand on shoulders of a church that has always had a remnant of believer so as Jesus said "the gates of hell will not prevail." So Jesus is either a liar or not God because he could not preserve his word over sinful man and man then would become sovereign.
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Posted By: nyborn @ 02/12/2008 8:43:28 PM
I find it strange that God hasn't given the gift of his son to all. I mean any country that doesn't have exposue to Christainity, people of that place are automatically eliminated from getting to heaven. This leaves a gapping hole in the plan for all having a chance at salvation. Why would God allow this? It would seem that God is biased if he doesn't allow all an equal chance.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/12/2008 9:28:07 PM
Well you are redefining what God did for your own means. Or in arguementation you are setting up a strawman then knocking it down. We are called to make disciples of all nations mttw 28. Its not a country by country thing. The usa has laws that protect religion so any body can say anything... . Look at the Jehova Witnesses who devised their own Bible in 1950 with hundreds of changes to suit their needs because they were exposed as abusing scripture and their founder C T Russell was shown to be a fraud saying he knew greek yet could not even read greak after saying he could while on the witness stand.
The gospel is good news to all who believe. The reason people dont believe as Jesus says is because they are not his sheep John ch 10..we are still called to preach the gospel to every living creature...and its being done in many ways missionaries, radio translations into 10/40 window, television, internet and bible translations. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoseover believes on Him would not perish but have everlasting live. So people will perish if thats whats behind your question. If this helps you also God says I will have mercy on who i will have mercy on and compassion on who i have compassion on and incredibly says upon this salvation point that "who are you to argue oh man."
Romans 9
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath???prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory??? 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]-
Posted By: nyborn @ 02/13/2008 10:36:26 PM
I'm not saying anything about country by coutry. All that I asked was if someone hasn't had a chance to hear the gospel then how will they be given a chance to make it to heaven?
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/14/2008 12:10:18 AM
Well according to the Bible in Romans 1 ...God has revealed himself to man through his creation...so that man is without excuse. How does that all shake out ...i dont have satisfying answer.. but i know now in part but will understand fully later as bible teaches. In years past before Jesus came people lived and died right ? Did they go to heaven or hell? Well both. Many looked forward to Jesus' day as bible teaches and they were justified by faith like abraham. Abraham became father of many who believed and Jesus said there are other sheep the gentiles who will believe so its clear not everyone is of the elect yet we as christians are still called to preach the good news to every creature not knowing who will believe. God has the right to give salvation to whomever he chooses predestined and eternally decreed before the foundation of the earth for his good pleasure.
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Posted By: nyborn @ 02/15/2008 7:18:09 AM
I would agree with you on this. Our motivation to ask others to seek the truth. We belive strongly in our purpose. See when we look at the idea of Christs' sacrifice for all, we can see that God doesn'tfavor one child over another because the Atonement applies for all of us. I think those that were born before Jesus are still awaiting for Jesus' day so thye can be judged.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/16/2008 3:12:59 PM
I would say atonement may be sufficient for all ...it is only a few that find it...as bible teaches. Gods purpose in election stands exactly what he says it is for his good pleasure. His ways are higher than my ways as bible teaches...for i wished all would be going to heaven but i defer to trusted scripture teaching which clearly says there are peoplei n heaven and hell...as decided by God from before creation.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/12/2008 8:33:31 PM
CORRECTION: Alexander the Great translated the old testament NOT the new testament into greek 300 yrs before Christ thereby validating the 50 + prophecies of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, who would suffer and pay for sins of world.
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Posted By: nyborn @ 02/11/2008 12:25:19 AM
I guess this reference was supposed to be Matthew Chapter 16 verse 18?
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/11/2008 1:36:17 AM
yes you are right sorry.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/10/2008 6:48:58 PM
15. The true church must be a restored church. Acts 3:19-20
19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
THIS SAYS NOTHIGN ABOUT A RESTORED CHURCH-
Posted By: nyborn @ 02/11/2008 12:35:43 AM
What is the time of refreshing and why is Jesus refered to in the future sense and his coming?
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/11/2008 1:23:06 AM
Thats a reference to the second coming of Jesus...i believe in thousand year reign where the lamb will lie down with the lion and child will play near the cobra....thats in revelation 19-21 and book of Isaiah. This world is eventually heading for armageddon first. Jesus gives refreshing to us by forgiving us our sins when we are born again John 3 16...and take our rest in Him Hebrews 4 from all the works salvation we were lead to believe was the way beforehand.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/10/2008 6:39:51 PM
13. The true church must claim revelation form God. Amos 3:7 BIBLE SAYS JESUS IS THE LAST PROPHET...
Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?-
Posted By: nyborn @ 02/11/2008 12:23:57 AM
Why would Jesus be the last prophet? If thats truly than how can any church claim to be led by God? I mean with no prophets that means we have been allowing men to lead EVERY CHURCH THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED SINCE THE DEATH OF CHRIST. (Capital letters aren't meant to shout, more to bring attention to the issue.) If we look back, no church today has any direct link back to Jesus and his aithority. Remember all the apostles were killed over time or passed away. So what I see that you are saying is Jesus is the last prophet and no church is lead by god anymore because we have no prophets since that time.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/11/2008 1:16:45 AM
Ok good question i didnt mean to shout by the way it was only way i could distinguish from you questions...sorry if i offended your senses i know what its like myself. I would say that churches are led by Jesus the cornerstone and he reveals himself to us in the Holy Scriptures where all scripture is given to us as an example as it says in bible i dont have verse handy...as well as correction training rebuking Every Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for convincing, for correction of error, and for instruction in right doing; 2 timothy 3 16. The bible also says power is given to the church and resides in elders of church to govern as according to bible. So who leads the church? Jesus because since he is sovereign and his will is done ...it will be done in the church body which incidentally is spiritual and one can only discern these things with spiritual heart and eyes. Jesus is God the only God.. Jesus is Lord he reveals himself to us through scripture and intervened in time and space. The bible teaches He is fully God and man and co creator with God the Father and God the Holy spirit as revealed to us in scripture. God revealed to us in scriptures as One God ( the Lord is one)..in three distinct persons. This we call monotheism not polytheism like mormonism which believes in more than one God thereby deviating from revealed doctrine from Holy Scriptures. So its really a big difference. We worship God our saviour and plan to worship him forever with new resurection bodies because of our God given faith as a free gift and mormons believe that all will be saved - denying hell which is clearly taught in scripture - but only mormons will enter celestial godhood with populating planets for those married in temples. We dont need another prophet because of what Jesus accomplished free heaven, free salvation at his high cost ...we just believe and receive forgiveness of sins - we are justified before God and saved by grace thru faith...notice how saved is in past tense ..its a done deal ..so we can now say its good news and enjoy spreading such to the world which is a command from God. His will is being done despite mans inabilities... look at the cross how many evil things happened before during and after Jesus was cxrucified yet nothing stopped Jesus from dying..the worst thing imaginable in the world yet it turned out to be ordained from the beginning of time before the world as the scripture says (Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world)." and the greatest things to ever happen. We look to the scriptures for direction Isaiah 46 10 God says he declares things from the beginning to the end and challenges anyone to disprove him
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Posted By: nyborn @ 02/11/2008 12:01:50 AM
So, according to what you say, no church is lead by a prophet all must be wrong? I mean if God doesn't have any leaders on the earth today than no one has the truth. Why would God not give us a path back to Him? Thats essentially what your saying by saying Jesus was the last prophet, but let me ask something more I thought he was part of the Godhead, isn't a prophet a man and imperfect? Just thinking outloud I guess.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/10/2008 6:37:31 PM
11. The true church must teach that God & Jesus Christ have
bodies of flesh and bone. Luke 24:36-39 and Acts 1:9-11 BOTH OF THESE SPEAK OF JESUS CHRIST GOD IN THE FLESH HAVING A BODY ...GOD THE FATHER IS SPIRIT SO YOU ARE MISLEADING PEOPLE WITH THIS POINT. -
Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/10/2008 6:35:44 PM
6. The true church must have no paid ministry. Isa. 45:13, 1 Peter
5:2 THE BIBLE SAYS A church should definitely provide for the financial needs of its pastor(s) and any other full-time ministers. 1 Timothy 5:17-18, ???The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, 'Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,' and 'The worker deserves his wages.'??? 1 Corinthians 9:14 declares, ???In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.??? If a church is not able to provide sufficient finances for a pastor, then a pastor would have no other choice but to work outside the church to bring in the needed income. This is a regrettable, but sometimes necessary situation. It would be best for a pastor to be full-time so he can fully dedicate himself to the Lord???s work of ministering to and shepherding the congregation.
SO YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/06/2008 8:35:59 PM
We are suppose to blindly accept LDS teaching? Shouldnt we test the spirits as bible says? Or like the Bereans did examined it in light of scripture? We still have no archaelogical evidence for any of the american cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon supposedly the most accurate book ever written. Certainly the Smithonian Institute does not think so. We know the Jesus said many false prophets will arise and deceive many. Jos Smith is such a one. We are called to defend the faith that was once and for all given to the saints. Your church depends on the veracity of one man who looked into a bag and supposedly translated his books one of which the book of abraham is now known being in existence prior ot Jos Smith. We are called to expose the deeds of the darkness, do you want the scripture verse ?
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Posted By: nyborn @ 02/10/2008 11:51:04 PM
You would never accept something on blind faith if you look into the Mormon Church it's expected that you question anything that you feel is out of place. Truly study it with no bias and pray and tell God what you feel and He will let you know through the Holy Ghost if it's the right choice or not. Based on that you can make choices. Oh and for that "mind control" crap, (Only using the term because that is what it is), free agency is the critical part of our Heavenly Father's plan. He allows us the freedom of choice. Joseph Smith is the given name please make sure and at least use the name of the one you choose to insult. He never looked into a bag to translate, rather the plates were covered by a cloth. Oh and you want something cut and dry. Jesus called seventy people in Luke Chapter 10 verse 4 and sent them two by two with no purse. Kinda blows that whole idea that they should get paid by the members of the church away.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/11/2008 1:39:54 AM
free will or free agency is condemned heresy...
Mans will is subject to his nature...its therefore fallen and not free... it needs an outside agency to free it...the outside agency is God's word it could be as simple as the word Jesus... which frees the mans heart and impacts the will to choose God. God gets glory not man and he is therefore author and perfector of our faith.-
Posted By: aad135 @ 02/11/2008 2:30:56 PM
This is a load... Yes, as mortal beings, we are subject to the flesh, and the "natural man is an enemy of God." But what you're saying is that we have no choice than to do evil, because it is our natue. That is a bleak point of view. I believe that, in the flesh we are weak, yet in the spirit we havethe light of Christ which all men are born with that gives us that agency to choose good or evil. Should we decide to put off the natural man, we will become spiritual beings, who love God. If we deny the light within us and choose evil, we become worldly and evil, as the adversary would have us. To speak of no choice, that is what the devil would have you believe, which is heretical. Where do you come up with this stuff..?
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/11/2008 7:53:51 PM
Where do i come up with this stuff ? This is orthodox position of predestination as demonstrated in bible and lives of easu and jacob talked about in Romans 9.
We can choose to do evil yes since we are fallen and in fallen state we can do evil. We in fallen state cannot do what is good in terms of satisfying requirements of God for salvation which is perfection if one lives by the law. If one lives by grace and salvation is graciously afforded one can only obtain it by a work of the holy spirit by Gods word allowing us to take our blinders off and see and believe which is what God says is what he requires...
The work of God is this believe in the one he sent. John 6 29
unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? -
Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/11/2008 7:45:22 PM
All have sinned and fall short of glory of God there is none righteous no not one. God looked down on the world to see if anyone was good but foudn they all strayed bible says...Im saying that as far as salvation is concerned we need Gods word which "does not return void and accomplishes what God has purposed for his good pleasure" to pierce our hearts and enliven the deadness there and give us life. This is consistent with Jesus saying "these words are life" John 6 and "Christ is life" We have free will to do good only after being born again supernaturally...since we dont have supernatural powers it has to be done by Gods mercy as shown in romans 9 where God has mercy on who he wants in election of man unto salvation
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/06/2008 11:47:00 PM
What did Elijah whose name means the Lord is God do to the 450 prophets of Baal after their god could not do anything ?
What did Jesus say when calling one of his disciples who was burying his father ? Let the dead bury the dead.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/09/2008 4:59:06 PM
By the way your defense is classic mind control technique. Obfuscation,diversions, change the subject, ad hominem attacks and straw man set up and knock downs... do anything but answer the questions. Ignorance is bliss they say.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/30/2008 10:44:10 PM
Grace and works are mutually exclusive grace cannot be grace if it includes works...you are in a works based salvation which means you are obligated to fulfill all of the law. No wonder there are so many pyschologists in utah - not to mention suicides.
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Posted By: AH1986 @ 01/31/2008 5:22:15 PM
So..............what you're saying is because you don't think its right, that the words of Christ and James , and all the other apostels and leaders in the era are wrong? JAMES said it not me.......take it up with God then man........I could give you the answers till I'm blue in the face, but if you don't want to hear them, then so be it. The words of Christ weren't accepted by the majority of the ancient Jews in his time either. Why? It's because he showed and taught them things that they weren't expecting......you're just like those that denied the Christ and His teachings. How dare you tell God what he can or can't do. I guess it really doesn't matter what you say because it happened.....and there are millions that believe it happened too. So continue with your unrelenting hate, bu7t let me tell you, it will only destroy you in the end.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/31/2008 5:46:20 PM
Mind control with punishment will not work with me...
Salvation is not by works James was talking about works before men which is how someone can show to man they have faith but its of no value to God God requires for salvation faith alone as detailed in romans 3 4 and 5...and dozens of other places .. so you are taking one scripture in a vacuum in James and building a doctrine around it and ignoring the portions of scripture where the subject is specifically dealt with. If works are necessary for salvation why did Jesus have to die we could just work ourselves in is one arguement against works based salvation. Another is who gets glorified? The person can boast ....but epesians 2 says it is by faith and not by works so that no one will boast...-
Posted By: jeffreyhunt @ 02/01/2008 5:43:48 PM
It's a good thing we have more scriptures that have been written on this Earth by prophets otherwise we might spin the scriptures in the bible to say what we want. But how conveinient and easy to beleive we say that we are saved in Christ and it is so. Then we can live how we want and not be punished!!!! You beleive that and I will continue to try to be more like Christ, which requires work!!!!!!
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/12/2008 9:34:49 PM
Romans 4 and 5 reference for the gaurantee also seen in other places in bible too if you want i ll dig out scripture .
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/12/2008 9:33:50 PM
Paul answers that little problem with Shall we continue to sin after we have been saved? Heaven forbid.
Paul says Jesus gives us his righteousness and that we are in fact seated with him in heaven already Eph 2...positionally and he is our advocate giving a defense for us against our accuser satan. Its no small thing that Christ accomplished. We stand under grace by faith so that it can be gauranteed...otherwise if its by works it cannot be gauranteed and in fact no one would ever make into heaven.
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Posted By: truthsayer2 @ 02/11/2008 12:08:33 AM
It is evident that sayitboldly & HolyRoller will argue any point tried to be made here. What I don't understand is why the vendetta agains the LDS church? What have they done to you? I guess you missed a couple of points that were made, "Love One Another, as I have loved you", "Judge Not that ye be not judged". The LDS Church does a LOT of good in the world, whether you want to admit it or not, they are doing one of the most important things what Jesus Christ taught - to help those in need. I feel sorry for you to carry such hatred & constantly blast this church. Too bad you don't let the LDS people just worship as they want - they aren't hurting anyone, just trying to do what Jesus Christ himself did & look what happened to him!
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/11/2008 1:45:08 AM
The LDS pretends to be nice and have family image but underneath is the statement that all other churches are "an abomination" all our creeds are corrupt and all members are corrupt from Joseph Smith in Pearl of Great Price. Where is the love there? We are called to speak the truth in love. If you knew someone was doing wrong and just led them go do you show your love? Mormons deny hell exists right ? As pascal might say applying pascals wager, said if you wrong thats a high price to pay and im just letting you know today in love.
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Posted By: truthsayer2 @ 02/11/2008 9:56:31 AM
No, the LDS church acknowledges that we have members that are not perfect - NO MAN IS PERFECT! This is why we are here on earth, to learn how to become perfect. And you are wrong about Hell because we do believe that there is a hell - don't know where you got that idea. But as much as I would like to keep trying to help you see, I can see that it is not doing me any good to try because you have obviously got your mind set at attacking the LDS church no matter what anyone says. You have interpreted the scriptures the way you want to, I have interpreted them the way I believe I am sorry. I will say that I have prayed, studied & discovered for myself that this church offers everything that I believe is right & good. I just want to say that I know that we really do a lot of good in the world, whether you want to believe that or not, it doesn't matter, because we are trying to do what our Savior, Jesus Christ would want us to do. Every church has its problems with their members, we are no exception. But most people try to live good lives & be good examples. I don't know what the LDS church ever did to you, but I am sorry you feel you have to carry this mission on to bash us. I wish you all the best. We will all know someday who is right or wrong. I have a life, I am going to move on. Good Luck & God Bless.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/11/2008 2:14:09 AM
You are taking a scripture "you should not judge" out of context.....Its insane to say that one cannot judge we are called to make a soudn judgement since many false prophets have gone into the world ...we are called to test the spirits ,,,, be wise etc...the facts are clear mormonisn is polytheism and biblical christianity is monotheism... i can make that judgement ...we need to use our minds to judge things every day. There is good and bad in this world. If my boss asks me to do somethign bad shuold i do it blindly or should i judge it soundly? If Jehovah witness tells me the world is going to end in 1975 or 1917 and it doesnt should i make a sound judgement or shuold i just follow them? If Joseph Smith speaking as the lords prophet of the only restored church in the world says Jesus will return by 1886 and he does not can i make a sound judgement? The mesuring stick is the bible which says in deuteronomy 18 Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
We are called to judge and not be afraid of false prophets....as the bible says many shall arise.
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Posted By: karenrose @ 02/05/2008 9:23:53 PM
'
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are mourning the death of their president, Gordon B. Hinckley, while their top leadership begins to assemble to name his successor-which will almost certainly be Thomas S. Monson, 80. Hinckley was the 15th president in the 177-year history of the church . . .
Of the anticipated change, she writes:
The transition to the new prophet is likely to be smooth. Monson has served for the last 43 years in the top tiers of church leadership and is deeply respected. . . . In Monson???s service as an apostle and counselor, he has served in roles that span the breadth of church life, including missionary work, welfare services, genealogy, education, and leadership training.
Describing the procedure for calling a new prophet, Newsweek reports:
Compared with the process of picking a pope, choosing a new Mormon prophet is fairly routine. . . .
After President Hinckley???s funeral, the 14 apostles will meet on the fourth floor of the Salt Lake temple in the room where they regularly conduct church business. The vote to make Monson the next prophet has to be unanimous. Then President Monson will sit in a chair and the remaining 13 apostles will stand in a circle and put their hands on his head. Boyd K. Packer, the next senior leader, will say a prayer ???setting him apart??? and blessing him in his new role. . . .
While it???s true, as the article purports, that compared with papal coronation, our outward display is simple; it???s spectacular to contemplate that the voice of the Lord directs the process through which a new Prophet of His is called to lead the Church and influence the world.
To those unfamiliar with the nuances of our faith, that divine intervention may be overlooked in its quietude. It may seem that a unanimous sustaining vote is a kind gesture of approval of someone called to be the next leader. A unanimous vote, in the case of the call of a new Prophet, is actually the result of a process that has taken place, rather than the means through which the Prophet is selected.
Through deliberation and prayer, each member of the Quorum of the Twelve receives revelation as to who the next Prophet will be. Once received, each raises their hand in recognition that they personally know of the divinity of the call, and will sustain the new Prophet.
Their vote is not the means of working into an office someone merely nominated, but rather an affirmation of their revelatory receipt of the Lord???s will. The distinction is important. It marks the very miracle of the Order of Succession, or change in mantle, of one Prophet to another.
In that sense, while it???s not as pomp-filled as coronation ceremonies, as Soukup rightly states, it is, in fact, divine and unique in the calling of Church leadership in the world.
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Posted By: theOtter @ 02/05/2008 8:56:20 AM
Great article, although it does further the common misconception that ???Until 1978 blacks were not permitted to hold the priesthood.??? Hundreds???perhaps even thousands???of blacks held the Priesthood before 1978; the 1978 Revelation extended the Priesthood to Canaanites, regardless of skin color. (Caucasians, Hispanics, and Native Americans of Canaanite descent were also unable to hold the Priesthood before that long-promised revelation was received.) It just so happens that most Canaanites are black (though many blacks are not Canaanites).
As I said, great article, but a correction would be greatly appreciated.
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Posted By: Mississippi @ 02/04/2008 6:23:09 PM
Interesting.
It would be great to have an article on the the book, "When Salt Lake City Calls" by Rocky Hulse. I'm interested in know how it lines up with the Church's view of staying out of politics.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/01/2008 7:39:51 PM
Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints taught,
???We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us??? (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.345; also cited in Gospel Principles, p.305).
In contrast to this, Psalm 90:2 states, ???Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you have formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.???-
Posted By: BornAgainthroughGraceOnly @ 02/03/2008 10:18:58 AM
Yeah, and IF you don't take this verse out of context - you will see that it's Moses talking to God - who has always been God and never a man!
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Posted By: SJ.commenting @ 02/02/2008 10:36:42 AM
For post by sayitboldly. Mormons do not believe they have to be 100% perfect. In fact it is by and through Christ's atonement that repentance comes to play. Christ is the foundation of the religion. Without Him the church would not be.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/02/2008 9:28:19 PM
Bible teaches that you are obligated to be 100% perfect to fulfill the whole law if you are not resting on Christ's finished work for salvation purposes...your good deeds are to be rewarded for sure but do not count in the salvation - Jesus took care of that thanks be to God.
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Posted By: josnat @ 02/02/2008 6:06:06 PM
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Posted By: josnat @ 02/02/2008 6:05:13 PM
I am sad and happy for the passing of President Gordon B Hinckley. Sad because I will miss his humor and christlike love for evereyone he meets. Happy because he will be reunited with his wife that he has so dearly missed for the last 4 years. I have been to Conferences and have the overpowering feelings of the spirit - love, joy, peace, warmth fill me when he has walked in the room. I see a lot of arguing over religion on these posts and I think that either side that argues are not of God. The spirit of contention is not of God. President Hinckley had great respect and love for people's of all faiths. There are several religious leaders in Salt Lake City of other religions that consider President HInckley a friend. He was an example of tremendous tolerance for all races and religions. I personally believe that any people or group that spend efforts to tear down any religion no matter what the religion are not doing any favors to anyone. They tear down but do not build up. They look for ffault and not good. They try to take away other's beleifs without giving that person something to believe in. They take away and leave with nothing. There is good in all religions and President HInckley was the best example I know of finding that good and builiiding up others no matter their beliefs. In tribute to President Hicnkley, I would ask anyone who loved President Hinckley to refrain from contending.
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Posted By: josnat @ 02/02/2008 6:03:59 PM
I am sad and happy for the passing of President Gordon B Hinckley. Sad because I will miss his humor and christlike love for evereyone he meets. Happy because he will be reunited with his wife that he has so dearly missed for the last 4 years. I have been to Conferences and have the overpowering feelings of the spirit - love, joy, peace, warmth fill me when he has walked in the room. I see a lot of arguing over religion on these posts and I think that either side that argues are not of God. The spirit of contention is not of God. President Hinckley had great respect and love for people's of all faiths. There are several religious leaders in Salt Lake City of other religions that consider President HInckley a friend. He was an example of tremendous tolerance for all races and religions. I personally believe that any people or group that spend efforts to tear down any religion no matter what the religion are not doing any favors to anyone. They tear down but do not build up. They look for ffault and not good. They try to take away other's beleifs without giving that person something to believe in. They take away and leave with nothing. There is good in all religions and President HInckley was the best example I know of finding that good and builiiding up others no matter their beliefs. In tribute to President Hicnkley, I would ask anyone who loved President Hinckley to refrain from contending.
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Posted By: Steve45 @ 02/02/2008 8:42:18 AM
Article author Elise Soukum forgot to mention that, at the next world conference (and all past and future world conferences), the entire church membership will sustain the president and prophet by vote.
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Posted By: choonzer @ 01/30/2008 11:57:22 AM
Blah, blah, blah, this is all getting so old. All you Mormon-haters out there, why are you so passionate about spreading hate and criticism? If you don't agree with LDS doctrine, don't live it. Do you really believe it's your responsibility to judge and/or punish people you don't agree with? Is that what Christ taught?
Mormons as a people try very hard to be good, honest, upstanding citizens. The church as an organization gives millions annually to the needy of their own church and many more millions for disaster relief and other humanitarian causes around the world. This money comes directly from the members - gladly. They encourage education, self-reliance, personal responsibility, valuing life, modesty, integrity, and on and on. But you people get so hung up on the temple rites and other theological differences, suddenly it's an evil and vicious cult. As a psychologist, I would suggest that you examine this rabid reaction in yourselves, and decide where it comes from.-
Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/30/2008 6:44:44 PM
Gently as possible as suggest to you that you are deceived and are too hooked socially and culturally to break out of your church. The bible says
1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile???the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" Romans 10 verse 3+
The mormons believe what they believe but are just deceived by satan! They along with catholics reject that faith in Jesus is enough as clearly demonstrated above. I gently suggest you reconsider who you have placed your eternal lot with.. you are depending on the veracity of one man... who failed the test of being a prophet when he said Jesus would return in 1891, as well as other prophecies and was jailed in Bainbridge New York in 1826 and 1830 trials that show Smith wanted to convert an under 18 yr old women from a church in area, was a glass looker promising riches for prophet and was in the gold book business using the same stone and occult religious practices influenced by the masons in order to strike it rich again. That is the truth,.-
Posted By: choonzer @ 01/30/2008 7:30:41 PM
I have plenty of Biblical examples for you that suggest good works are just as important to the Lord as faith on His name. But rather than get into a Bible bash with you, I would ask you to explain how so many people all over the world can pray sincerely, fervently, to our Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, about whether or not the Mormon message is true, and receive a spiritual confirmation that it is. They are so convinced, in fact, that many have endured hardship and death, not to mention endless ridicule of loud-mouthed predjudiced folks like HolyRoller, yet they remain steadfastly convinced, and many thousands more join every year. Are these people all brainwashed? How do 20-year-old young men "brainwash" intelligent, professional, experienced people all over the world? How do you have the marked cornered on Truth, and so many fervent seekers get left to "satan," as you say? Does God really work like that? Do you believe he even answers prayers at all? If you don't then you don't understand the Bible. And if you do, tell me why he would allow this.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/30/2008 7:45:46 PM
I gently say that the Bible simply doesnt say to check to see if you have burning in busom ...that is subjective and can be easily replicated by evil spirit. Not an objective test of veracity. We are to test the spirits the bible says. We are to be looking out for false prophets. We can trust bible as written because of proof of it being written 300 yrs before Christ came in the flesh due to Hellenization of Old Testament around 300 bc verifying old testament prophecies are accurate. Bible warns against taken on addtional testimony in revelation last chapter of bible and first chapter of galations where even if an angel gave testimony we are to reject it...with the lack of evidence supporting mormon claims of for one example a war 600 ad which left 200,000 dead in Manchester NY there should be archaelogical findings there like there are of life in palestine... but there are not... the silence is deafening.
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Posted By: choonzer @ 01/30/2008 8:01:15 PM
Where in the Bible does it suggest that satan can replicate the fruits of the Spirit in someone? Never heard of that. In fact, when the resurrected Lord left his apostles, he promised them "the Comforter" to lead them in his absence. Seems to me if evil spirits could mimic the Spirit, Christ would have warned them.
As for your need for scientific proof, since when is that important to Christians? Faith is the belief in things NOT SEEN, not belief in things proven. Can you prove that Christ was the Son of God, or even that he existed at all?
When John wrote about adding or taking away from his Revelation, he was talking about exactly that - his revelation. The Bible wasn't even compiled for centuries later - was that "adding to Revelation?" There's a similar verse in Deut. Same logic applies.
Now on a more personal level, I have experienced MANY miracles and direct answers to prayers in my own life which leave me no room for doubt as to where I stand. Is satan answering my prayers and guiding my life, filling it with such joy and peace?-
Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/30/2008 8:46:40 PM
Bible says to test the spirits right ?
You want to refer to bible but you dont believe its word of God if you did you would take heed of Galatians 1 which says if any man is preaching a gospel contrary to that which you recieved let him be accursed...or if we or an nagel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preachec to you let him be accursed...or revelation which says if any man adds to the words of this book etc...
So therefore it doesnt depend on a burning of busom because The BOM is another gospel another testimony and since it is another then its a false one...we have what we have "it was once and for all delivered to the saints." 1800 years before J Smith glasslooker treasure seeker peeped into a box and read books like the book of abraham which was a hoax and proven as not new revelation but a copy of an ancient egyptian book. Hinkly himself said mormons teach a different gospel...and as Apostle Paul said in bible if you still believe it ,,,which i know you cant at this point...that it has to be rejected as a false gospel.
Trying to establish a righteousness of your own you are stumbling over the stumbling block, Jesus, Our Lord Righteuosness.-
Posted By: choonzer @ 01/30/2008 10:09:01 PM
No, sayitboldly, the problem is that you interpret the Bible to mean what you want it to. So do I. Everyone does. That's why there are thousands of Christian churches. The way I interpret it, there is no contradiction between BofM or any other LDS scripture. The fact is, the Bible is decidedly vague on many topics. If it were as clear as you make it sound, everyone would agree with you. But everyone doesn't. There are plenty of very smart, very well-read individuals in lots of different Christian faiths. You brought up the faith vs. works issue (and there are countless others), I can show you lots of Christian denominations who are convinced of each side of that debate. You're obviously sure of what you believe, so good for you. But don't pretend that it's simply because you've read and understand the Bible better than me or thousands of others. You just have your own interpretation. That, by the way, is why God has revealed more scripture to the world. :-)
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/30/2008 11:17:02 PM
Comment: Grace and works are mutually exclusive grace cannot be grace if it includes works...you are in a works based salvation which means you are obligated to fulfill all of the law. No wonder there are so many pyschologists in utah - not to mention suicides.
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Posted By: choonzer @ 01/31/2008 12:09:51 AM
You don't understand the doctrine of grace at all. We're ALL saved by grace, because we're all imperfect. There's no way anybody can save themselves. That does not mean, nor has it EVER meant, that simple faith is all that's required. You SHOW your faith BY your works, or else it is DEAD. If the Savior was the perfect example for us to follow, are we to assume that he worked tirelessly his entire ministry just for fun? No, he was showing us how to live, not just what to believe. Did he send the apostles out to BELIEVE? No he sent them to preach the gospel, baptize, etc. Works, works, everywhere.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/31/2008 4:20:10 PM
WE are saved unto good works not by them which God created for us to do beforehand (ephesians 2) ....look at the theif on the cross for ex...he never did any good works but believed thanks be to God by Gods power ...and Jesus said unto him today you will be with me in paradise. Works are done after one is creditted with righteousness from gift of faith from God ...he is author and perfector of our faith...Yes a faith without works is dead and so is a faith with the wrong Jesus the mormon Jesus is not saviour He is not even God....Hinkley is so confused he doesnt even know but im sure he knows now.
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Posted By: AH1986 @ 02/01/2008 4:53:54 PM
How could you say such a thing............you have just as much of an idea about what's true and what isn't then the rest of us.....Gordon B Hinckley will be remembered for good and for bad depending on who speaks of him, but here is the point. He will be remembered...............as for you? What have you done to use your faith to help others, huh? How are you using your God given talents right now? Christ used the parable of the lord of the garden and his three servants. I think you remember this one. He gave them all money, (called talents in this case), and told them to keep steward over them and multiply them until he returned. The one with five went out, used them to make ten. The other with three went out and came back with 6. The servant with one for fear of his lord wrath buried it for safe keeping. When the Lord came back and asked about them, he saw the one with five, the one with 3, and he was pleased with them becasue they heeded his word. Of the one who buried it, he called his slothful servant. Why? Becasue he was given a commandment, told to go out and use what was given him to bring forth something better, and he didn't. he wasted it. How does this apply in this case? You have an obvious gift for being able to call forth scripture, and have the faith to speak out......but. I ask you this. To what end are you using your God given "talents"? For good and right, or to depress and nulify. Christ recognized the man on the cross this is true. He knew he was a theif, and yet he saw the good in him. The same is to be said in everyone.......even the President and prophet of the Lord, Gordon Bitner Hinckley. We never claim that we're perfect, we claim that we try as best we can to live by the laws of our Heavenly Father. when we fall, Christ is there to pick us up again. If we stumble, He is there to support us. If we were perfect we would have need of a church, becasue it's a perfect place for imperfect people.. A place to grow, and learn, and how to emulate our Lord Jesus Christ. THIS is what is taught. Not what passages of scripture can be used to ATTEMPT to try to defame other religions. Tell me why do you believe? What do you hope to accomplish here? Is it to build up, or destroy? Ask yourself that....
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 02/01/2008 7:22:18 PM
There is no good in anyman that will merit him salvation certainly not the thief on cross...again if you want to stand your own personal goodness then your are obligated to be 100% perfect 100 % of time which only Jesus was able to accomplish which is why he turns aroudn and makes it free for us by faith and since it is by faith it can be by grace so that it can be garaunteed to us all who believe (romans 4 v 16 and 17). "There is no one righteous no not one" ...the thiefs goodness was his faith that God had given him due to the fact that the man realized Jesus was sinless.
The whole point im making is mormons discredit Jesus accomplishment on the cross by saying its not good enough you need more than what Jesus did - so they are in effect denying the efficacy of Christs atonement and lure people into a system where they can be controlled by man instead of set free by God ..he who the son sets free is free indeed. Talents used here are brain eyes ears fingers lungs etc ...for your eternal benefit but for Gods glory alone amen!
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/30/2008 11:22:28 PM
God cannot lie right ? Well if he revealed more scripture he is a liar and not God at all. The Bible is confidentally however the world of God with God telling us what is going to happen in the world as he declares to us he is doing as seen in Isaiah 46 10 where he challenges man and says who is it that tells you from the end to the past all that is to come. The world is heading toward armageddon a battle aroudn jerusalem in the valley of meggido a place where even Napolean said is greatest battlefield in the world and is a key military staging area for three continents not to mention 80 of worlds oil. The church is to be raptured out before hand consistent with God in protecting his own as in flood times with noah and sodomand gomorra with Lot before his judgement falls. So i dont need any other revelation from BOM Mohammed or whoever. Thanks but no thanks.
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Posted By: choonzer @ 01/31/2008 12:13:33 AM
Funny you should say that, it's exactly what was prophesied in the Book of Mormon. I guess it must be true.
Incidentally, nowhere in the Bible does it say that God can never reveal anything else. That's something you've made up.-
Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/31/2008 4:34:15 PM
I would read Galatians chapter 1 i feel like im talking to a wall however....if even an angel would give you another gospel than the one you accepted dont believe it ( paraphrased)..also last chapter of Bible warns against adding to the book. God reveals himself to man through scripture as noted in peter and verified through prophecy which comprise 25% of the bible when it was written.
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Posted By: AH1986 @ 01/31/2008 5:33:20 PM
Do you know what the last thing to be written in the Bible was? The last thing written by the hand of John was not that if anyone add to, or remove something from the book of revelations and so forth. You want to know what is? I suggest YOU read the last chapter in the Book of John, in particular the last 5 verses. That my friend is what ssures us that God loves all of His children on this earth and revealed His will to them. I bet you won't read it thopugh. Why? Because you're scared that you might have to admit you don't know everything. Go ahead, try and deny God what He can or can't do. It doesn't matter. You know why? Because you're not interested in the truth. You're interested in pride and the need to be "right".......
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/31/2008 5:53:20 PM
The book of John was written before The book of Revelation. Should i bow down and say Joseph Smith was right ? A convicted glass looker ? a deceiver ? WE are called to make a sound judgement this is a divine commandment from God. We are called to defend our faith and expose the evil deeds of wrong doers like Joseph Smith.
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Posted By: AH1986 @ 01/31/2008 7:17:04 PM
I'm not telling you to "bow down" as you would put it. I brought up that point to illustrate that your ranting and ravings against the works that have come from the prophet Joseph Smith are of God, and that YOU DON"T KNOW EVERYTHING!. I belive this account to be true. I believe that Joespeh Smith WAS called of God to restore the church of Christ in our day once again. I beleive that God called prophets to His holy work, and becasue he is consistant, he has called them again. Why can't you accept that I'm entitled to believe what I will WITHOUT trying to break me down?! As far as your comment goes about your accusations on the valididty of Joseph Smiths first vision and everything after that......."judge not lest ye be judged". Ive NEVER read in the Bible where it says to , " Expose the evil deeds of wrong doers". Who are you to throw the first stone anyway? Who called you to "expose the truth" behind the Mormon church? Your pastor? Like I said before, and as illustrated in my comment to you before. you do it to be "right". You do it for pride. So rally against the Mormon CHurch if you want, rise up and try to disprove it. Try to smear our leaders and our members all yoou can. This is an invitation; But know this, you will never succeed. Why? because it's based upon FAITH. I can't prove its true , and you can't disprove it's truth either. Leave me what mine and go back and study the meaning of why Christ had to die again. Why there is so much suffering in the world. Why God gives us commandments and the blessings that come from obedience to them. Study the things that matter and use them to help your fellow man as Christ would have instead of breaking them down. That's all I have to say to you.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/31/2008 9:29:45 PM
Well i do appreciate engaging in dialogue i believe in free speach as im sure you do and i didnt intend to make you think im slandering your church but who threw the first stone ? J Smith said he talked to God and God told him all churches are lost and of satan correct? Do we just take what one man said and go with it as the mormons have ? Or do we look at bible look at the missions of the church the good works etc and make a sound judgement? Do we look at Jesus words who said the on this rock i build my church and the gates of hell will not overcome it? Did not jesus say many false prophets will arise and deceive many? Who is to say that J Smith is a not a false prophet ? Do i just take his word ? Or do i investigate him his life his character before he foudned church? How many times did he change his visatiation with God in the grove? Any one who has a solid foundation of faith based on the real Jesus will out of love try to show others that J Smith presents a false Jesus. But if your social and cultural and familial instincts will not let you take an objective look then you are truly in too deep and only God can break you free from the powerful mind controlling cult of mormonism.
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Posted By: MGoldhardt @ 02/01/2008 10:19:45 AM
I know that the Church of Jesus Christ is really His Church. Here is the deal.
Your Heavenly Father is the source of all truth. He loves you and wants to answer your questions. Therefore, He will help you recognize the truth as you sincerely seek it and ask Him for guidance. You can know if the things you are learning are true if you ask your Heavenly Father in prayer. He desires for you to know the truth, and you can receive an answer from Him through the Holy Ghost. As taught in the Bible, ???The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, [and] temperance??? (Galatians 5:22???23). These feelings from the Holy Ghost are personal revelation to you that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is true. You will then need to choose whether you will live in harmony with the knowledge you have received.
As the Savior taught in the Bible, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you ( Matthew 7:7). Feelings from the Holy Ghost are personal revelation to you that confirm the truth of the Book of Mormon and the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.
The last prophet of the Book of Mormon, a man named Moroni, gave this remarkable promise to anyone who wants to know whether the Book of Mormon is true: ???And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost???? ( Moroni 10:4).
You can discover for yourself if the book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, or the Church is true by:
Sincerely praying to your Heavenly Father and asking Him if what you are learning is true.
Continuing to study and give thoughtful consideration to what you are learning.
Listening with your heart for the Holy Ghost to whisper the truth to you.
Following God???s commandments so you can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost.
It has worked in my life, and I love it. I love knowing that God still gives us revelation today! It is so awesome. Many may disagree with what i know, and many may doubt my witness. But I can't prove to you that the Book of Mormon is true just as much as I can tell someone who has never tasted salt what salt tases like. You have to see for yourself and ask God.
If you want more info go to www.mormon.org
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Posted By: jeffreyhunt @ 02/01/2008 5:48:12 PM
With your lips you do honor Him but your heart is far from it! I am guessing you have never read the ancient scriptural text which is the Book of Mormon and as such may not speak of that which you do not know!
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Posted By: AH1986 @ 01/30/2008 7:23:33 PM
OK, the consiracy theory thing is getting old. You're absolutly right about through faith we are saved......but as Christ, James and all the prohets and apostel taought that Faith without works is dead. Was it not Christ who when asked by the apostels, "What would thou havest us do, Lord?" replied "keep my commandments". To keep the commandments we have to ACTIVELY live what we believe. I could shout hallahluiah all day, and say that I believe, but if I don't get out there and FOLLOW Christ then I'm not going anywhere. I wouldn't be able to use what I've been tought. You said it yourself, Blessed are the feet of those who procliam the Lord......but did the apostel and Christ Himself just stay in gallilee? They travesed the entire known world, and laid down their lives for what they beleived. We read in the first four books of the new testament about how Christ was baptised in the river Jordan. We know that baptism is a symbol for being "buried"under the water, and then rising again as a new peson, recommitted to following the commands of our Lord and Savior. So if we follow the reasoning behind baptism, ie. restoration to a sinless state, then why was Christ baptized? He was perfect. Without Sin. Yet he himself was baptzed to show us the way, and to ACTIVLY show that this is what the Lord requires of us to test our faith; and quite frankly withoput faith and authority baptism is only taking a bath. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that as stated in the Bible, "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD". It's also visa versa. So you cant say I believe in Christ and you're done. You have to Follow Him and emulate Him. Why? Unless you do this you will never truely KNOW Him and in my opinion that is what religion is all about. Coming to a greater knowledge of who we are, who Christ is, and how we emulate Him in order to find true Joy in this life, and iprepare to return to our loving Heavenly Father in the next.
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/30/2008 7:49:24 PM
Gently i say ...Where is the line of demarcation for salvation? Where is the mormon justified before God and how many good works gets him over the top... No the bible clearly says we are justified by faith ..we have a righteousness by faith...we are credited as righteous by the faith in what Jesus is all about... his atoning death and resurection...that is clear line of demarcation so that it can be by grace as romans 4 says otherwise it cannot be by grace, get it ?
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Posted By: AH1986 @ 01/31/2008 5:45:23 PM
So I guess with your reasoning the accounts of Christ telling the Ten lepers to go and wash themselves in the river to cleanse themselves, or the story of the centurion who was commanded to GO and wash in the river Jordan as well, and all the countless other accounts where Christ asked His followers to test their faith in Him by moving their faith unto action were all just mute points then.. if just through faith alone were saved according to your reasoning, then all the commandments mean nothing and are pointless right? The principle of faith AND works is throughout all of the Bible, you just choose to ommit those portions because they don't coincide with your core beliefs. What else you got?
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Posted By: sayitboldly @ 01/31/2008 6:03:42 PM
The 10 commandments do not nullify the promise of God that it is by faith that we are justified before God please read Galatians ch 3....We are creditted as fully righteous before "God do to our faith which is in itself a gift of God from the spirit and word of God which does not return void. Some faith is strong some weak but this is the line of demarcation for heaven and hell if you stand before God in your works you are obligated to fulfill all of the law....100 percent of the law 100 percent of the time ... thats why mormons are so stressed they know they cannot hold up to the law and are hoping for good works to bail themselves out but as soon as they try the works based salvation road they are helpless because their works are never enough to merit salvation. Jesus said the work of God is this believe in the one he sent. You can then take your rest from works in Him as far as salvation goes (Herbrews 4)...this is admittedly spiritually discerned and if you dont have the spirit of God you cannot see the kingdom of God.
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Posted By: AH1986 @ 02/01/2008 5:12:01 PM
I'm not perfect. I can openly admit that..... I'm probably the weakest willed person I know. But does that mean it's enough for me to say i believe, and then not even try? Beacause we're all imperfect that is why Christ laid down His Life and took it up again. If I followed what you jsut stated as fact about what I believe, then I wouldn';t have any hope.......except that there is this odd thing called repentance that Christ requires of us for forgiveness. When we sin, He doesn't expect us to be perfect becasue we just can't be. But he does expect us to feel the sorrow of our deeds, then to get up and try again. and again. for as many times as it takes us to learn how to resist temptation and follow Him. If we do this and commit ourselves to Him then he will always be there to support us and forgive us. THAT is what the atonement was for. to give us the ability to try again. If I follow your resoning, say I believe, and keep on breaking His commendment without regard, remorse, or the attempt to become better, then It would be as if we were spitting in His face saying that we didn't even care that we're the cause of His suffering. That we're not even willing to try to overcome our weaknesses. If somehow through me trying to become better than I was yesterday, would mean that was one less drop of blood of His shed for me, then by all means, I'm never giving up.
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Posted By: choonzer @ 01/30/2008 10:16:31 PM
We are saved by grace after doing all in our power to follow Him. Grace AND works. Belief in Christ is not enough. Even demons believe.
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