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The True Turkish Believer

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  • Posted By: Frodo42 @ 02/24/2008 5:59:48 PM

    It may be that some circles in Turkey want to join the European Union, but a much more likely cause for Erdogan's course is that it will permit him to lodge the military from power and instill a permanent Islamist-friendly rule in Turkey, never to be reversed. Getting Gül as president was a masterly move in that direction, as is lifting the ban on the Islamic religious uniform, also known as the headscarf.

    Most likely, Erdogan doesn't care much about EU membership. He knows that we Europeans have no desire to let Turkey join, with opinion polls showing up to 70-80 % of the European citizens simply refusing the idea. The intransigence against non-Muslim minorities, the recurrent censorship of YouTube and WordPress, and now the invasion into Iraq all show that Turkey in practical life cares little about fulfilling even fundamental conditions for EU candidacy.

    But how come EU hasn't simply suspended the negotiations long ago, as the Union stated it would if the reforms were put on a back burner? This is a mystery wrapped in a riddle disguised as an enigma. The Eurocrats have invested much prestige in the project and hate to see it fail, regardless of supposedly 'strict' conditions or public opinion.

    US interference, one of the most dreaded events that can happen in European politics, have saved the day for the Turks every time the Europeans were about to tell the Turks that the project was hopeless.

    Finally, and probably most important, the European Union is full of well-paid specialists able to field nimble excuses and false hopes for just about every reform flaw, human rights breach or Copenhagen Criteria violation in Turkey. This well-paid army of lawyers, diplomats and rapporteurs is effectively shielding the EU Commission from public opinion on the matter, and further buys them excuses for inaction even on obvious issues such as the continuing occupation of Cyprus, the censorship events and now the invasion into Kurdistan.

    This, along with the adoption of the publicly rejected Constitution Treaty, seriously erodes public confidence in the entire EU project. But who actually cares? The Eurocrats have their pensions secured, the politicians get to drive limousines and participate in fancy dinners.

    Some day, however, all the fine people may wake up and find that the democratic legitimacy for the European Union has evaporated, along with public confidence and interest. Unless the politicians show more respect for public opinion and defense of fundamental European values - such as the Rule of law - they'd better brace for impact. It's gonna hurt.

    • Posted By: Coolstander @ 03/22/2008 6:36:59 AM

      Comment: I am writing this to Frodo42 . First of all, please dont act like you are giving us something pro bono. We dont need your endowment, your desire towards our EU join at all. Dont be deluded that our public craves to enter EU, opinion polls here are the same as yours. I am sure that if Turkey joins EU someday, it will be just because of the high interests of EU, not an instant sentimental decision of your diplomats you dont like. And in my opinion, if your diplomats would act according to your people???s desires, you would be somewhere else in the GDP scale. The Europe which I think is splitted in 2 or 3 must give an approval or disapproval decision for us anymore. It is not fair to be suspended for years and to be asked much more than other candidate members. We need to draw our line too.
      You are talking about the censorship of YouTube, the invasion of Iraq etc. in order to display our current situation. It is ludicrous to cite all these while many of our citizens are being burned alive in the midst of contemporary Europe. It is another paralogism to name a cross-border operation towards terrorists as an invasion, since we are having that operation on the strength of UN treaties. It is the salvation of a public from a longstanding anguish, not occupation of Cyprus. We have many people who seek protection there. Sorry but we dont need to ask anyone to proect our public from a carnage. And there is also no country recognized or an official place called Kurdistan. If you accept that name and the view of a terrorist group with ease then you are said to have tolerance for any terrorist movement anywhere and also you must be ready to admit a new independent region in your country requested by a terrorist group in future.
      If the democratic legitimacy of the EU is bound up with our join, then you better do something quickly for your union. You are using so many assertive statements most of which I can assure are totally wrong, and I think it is a pity such a wrong-informed guy can write comments to a magazine like Newsweek. I feel irritated about your prejudice and for your age, I would expect you to be more hip when commenting about a foreign country.

  • Posted By: Coolstander @ 03/13/2008 1:09:21 PM

    I am writing this to Frodo42 . First of all, please dont act like you are giving us something pro bono. We dont need your endowment, your desire towards our EU join at all. Dont be deluded that our public craves to enter EU, opinion polls here are the same as yours. I am sure that if Turkey joins EU someday, it will be just because of the high interests of EU, not an instant sentimental decision of your diplomats you dont like. And in my opinion, if your diplomats would act according to your people???s desires, you would be somewhere else in the GDP scale. The Europe which I think is splitted in 2 or 3 must give an approval or disapproval decision for us anymore. It is not fair to be suspended for years and to be asked much more than other candidate members. We need to draw our line too.
    You are talking about the censorship of YouTube, the invasion of Iraq etc. in order to display our current situation. It is ludicrous to cite all these while many of our citizens are being burned alive in the midst of contemporary Europe. It is another paralogism to name a cross-border operation towards terrorists as an invasion, since we are having that operation on the strength of UN treaties. It is the salvation of a public from a longstanding anguish, not occupation of Cyprus. We have many people who seek protection there. Sorry but we dont need to ask anyone to proect our public from a carnage. And there is also no country recognized or an official place called Kurdistan. If you accept that name and the view of a terrorist group with ease then you are said to have tolerance for any terrorist movement anywhere and also you must be ready to admit a new independent region in your country requested by a terrorist group in future.
    If the democratic legitimacy of the EU is bound up with our join, then you better do something quickly for your union. You are using so many assertive statements most of which I can assure are totally wrong, and I think it is a pity such a wrong-informed guy can write comments to a magazine like Newsweek. I feel irritated about your prejudice and for your age, I would expect you to be more hip when commenting about a foreign country.

  • Posted By: Coolstander @ 03/13/2008 1:08:56 PM

    I am writing this to Frodo42 . First of all, please dont act like you are giving us something pro bono. We dont need your endowment, your desire towards our EU join at all. Dont be deluded that our public craves to enter EU, opinion polls here are the same as yours. I am sure that if Turkey joins EU someday, it will be just because of the high interests of EU, not an instant sentimental decision of your diplomats you dont like. And in my opinion, if your diplomats would act according to your people???s desires, you would be somewhere else in the GDP scale. The Europe which I think is splitted in 2 or 3 must give an approval or disapproval decision for us anymore. It is not fair to be suspended for years and to be asked much more than other candidate members. We need to draw our line too.
    You are talking about the censorship of YouTube, the invasion of Iraq etc. in order to display our current situation. It is ludicrous to cite all these while many of our citizens are being burned alive in the midst of contemporary Europe. It is another paralogism to name a cross-border operation towards terrorists as an invasion, since we are having that operation on the strength of UN treaties. It is the salvation of a public from a longstanding anguish, not occupation of Cyprus. We have many people who seek protection there. Sorry but we dont need to ask anyone to proect our public from a carnage. And there is also no country recognized or an official place called Kurdistan. If you accept that name and the view of a terrorist group with ease then you are said to have tolerance for any terrorist movement anywhere and also you must be ready to admit a new independent region in your country requested by a terrorist group in future.
    If the democratic legitimacy of the EU is bound up with our join, then you better do something quickly for your union. You are using so many assertive statements most of which I can assure are totally wrong, and I think it is a pity such a wrong-informed guy can write comments to a magazine like Newsweek. I feel irritated about your prejudice and for your age, I would expect you to be more hip when commenting about a foreign country.

  • Posted By: andersgabriel @ 02/28/2008 6:52:43 AM

    Dear Newsweek staff,

    You seriously lost face with that article about Turkey, or are you all expecting to settle down at the Black Sea? Your journalist got everything wrong. It is the people of Europe and not their frequently immature politicians who ever less want Turkey in Europe.

  • Posted By: stuthkfl @ 02/16/2008 5:23:23 PM

    Don't you know that only insulting the government, Turkishness or whatever is banned; critisizing is complately free?

    Don't you know that in Germany 72, in Holland 419 and in Italy 107 people have been arrested from the same law that they have for their own countries?

    Don't you know that Turkey is one of the most church per capita percentage? Although they're presenting the 1 percent minority, near the all churches are operating wide free?

    Do you have any idea how many mosque is standing in Athens from the Ottomans and how many church is standing in Istanbul from the Greeks? Why opening the evangelist school in Heybeliada?

    • Posted By: Frodo42 @ 02/24/2008 6:26:54 PM

      Rubbish. Persecutions under article 301 is rising sharply, and other publishers, such as Hrant Dink or the three murdered Christians enjoy no protection in real life.

      If Turkey was to reopen the Halki priest seminary (closed in 1971), I would accept it as a step towards reinstating freedom of religion. But that has been discussed for years on end with no progress, all while the old priests in the Christians communities die from old age.

      The Turkish administration is cunning. Being a non-Muslim is difficult in Turkey, and downright dangerous if you teach others about your religion.

  • Posted By: benyunusum @ 02/17/2008 4:00:26 AM

    In the article it is said that Goverment should also take into considiration freedom for other religion's practicers.
    As we are not best in tolerancing other cultures and religions but most EU countries worst than Turkey.
    Turkish people burned to death in Gemany, Turkish people live minority problems in North Greece and so on.
    A commentor has asked that question "Do you have any idea how many mosque is standing in Athens from the Ottomans and how many church is standing in Istanbul from the Greeks?" The answer is none of the mosques from Ottoman Empire in Athens today and nearly all of the Churches from the Ottoman State and Byzhantines still exist in Istanbul.

  • Posted By: benyunusum @ 02/17/2008 3:59:54 AM

    In the article it is said that Goverment should also take into considiration freedom for other religion's practicers.
    As we are not best in tolerancing other cultures and religions but most EU countries worst than Turkey.
    Turkish people burned to death in Gemany, Turkish people live minority problems in North Greece and so on.
    A commentor has asked that question "Do you have any idea how many mosque is standing in Athens from the Ottomans and how many church is standing in Istanbul from the Greeks?" The answer is none of the mosques from Ottoman Empire in Athens today and nearly all of the Churches from the Ottoman State and Byzhantines still exist in Istanbul.

  • Posted By: gunes @ 02/16/2008 5:30:53 PM

    I personally like to see Article 301 removed all together. But, scrapping article 301 is a political trap for Erdogan as well as being a touchy issue for the Turkish nation. Scrapping it would be political suicide for him. His political enemies would use it to accuse him of allowing criticism of Ataturk, revered by all as the creator of modern Turkey, number one hero, and a strong secularist; and another step towards Islamization of modern Turkey. They are already accusing him of destroying Ataturk???s secular regime one stone at a time. Removing the Article all together, would allow Kurdish extremists to instigate hatred between Turks and Kurds by attacking Turkish nationalism. This can lead to ethnic clashes among Turks & Kurds. However, the article also prevents criticism of the government, the military, and the judiciary. There is no good reason to keep this portion of the article. It is anti-democratic. So, perhaps the Article the EU so much wants to be scrapped, in practicality of the Turkish politics, can only be modified at this time in our history.

  • Posted By: gunes @ 02/16/2008 5:29:47 PM

    I personally like to see Article 301 removed all together. But, scrapping article 301 is a political trap for Erdogan as well as being a touchy issue for the Turkish nation. Scrapping it would be political suicide for him. His political enemies would use it to accuse him of allowing criticism of Ataturk, revered by all as the creator of modern Turkey, number one hero, and a strong secularist; and another step towards Islamization of modern Turkey. They are already accusing him of destroying Ataturk???s secular regime one stone at a time. Removing the Article all together, would allow Kurdish extremists to instigate hatred between Turks and Kurds by attacking Turkish nationalism. This can lead to ethnic clashes among Turks & Kurds. However, the article also prevents criticism of the government, the military, and the judiciary. There is no good reason to keep this portion of the article. It is anti-democratic. So, perhaps the Article the EU so much wants to be scrapped, in practicality of the Turkish politics, can only be modified at this time in our history.

  • Posted By: fguneren @ 02/16/2008 5:11:48 PM

    COMMENT: SLANDEROUS MISQUOTATIONS
    Various comments made here by Larry Houle (posted by intermedusa) dated o2/16!2008, on Koran and Islam, are libellious, slanderous misquotations reflecting hatred and animosity, due to either personal or institutional (i.e. missionary organizations) zeal. Anybody who reads Koran, will easily see the gross distortions in those "comments"! Mehmet F. MD

  • Posted By: fguneren @ 02/16/2008 4:56:19 PM

    Various comments made here by Larry Houle (posted by intermedusa) dated o2/16!2008, on Koran and Islam, are libellious, slanderous misquotations reflecting hatred and animosity, due to either personal or institutional (i.e. missionary organizations) zeal. Anybody who reads Koran, will easily see the gross distortions in those "comments"! Mehmet F. MD

  • Posted By: fguneren @ 02/16/2008 4:55:29 PM

    Various comments made here by Larry Houle (posted by intermedusa) dated o2/16!2008, on Koran and Islam, are libellious, slanderous misquotations reflecting hatred and animosity, due to either personal or institutional (i.e. missionary organizations) zeal. Anybody who reads Koran, will easily see the gross distortions in those "comments"! Mehmet F. MD

  • Posted By: Mehmet @ 02/16/2008 10:10:02 AM

    I just realized that people are commenting about quran, Islam etc. This article is not about quran or Islam, it mostly about Turkey and her relation to Europe and the west. Instead, discuss about the created "Turkish hate" in Europe. People have been burning Turkish people Germany. On the other hand I can honestly say that I am a turkish Christian and Turkish people accept me as a Christian but since I have standard Turkish name, they think that I am a muslim and threat me differently than those who know that I am a christian. So, Muslim Turkey accepts me as a Christian but Christian Europe does not accept me as a muslim.(Becase they thin that I am) I am living in Europe as a practising Christian(even have Education from Norwegian Lutheran Collage)! But I feel like some people push me hard to question me their religion! By the way my fellow European friend, when did you read Bible last time?

  • Posted By: Mehmet @ 02/16/2008 10:06:14 AM

    I just realized that people are commenting about quran, Islam etc. This article is not about quran or Islam, it mostly about Turkey and her relation to Europe and the west. Instead, discuss about the created "Turkish hate" in Europe. People have been burning Turkish people Germany. On the other hand I can honestly say that I am a turkish Christian and Turkish people accept me as a Christian but since I have standard Turkish name, they think that I am a muslim and threat me differently than those who know that I am a christian. So, Muslim Turkey accepts me as a Christian but Christian Europe does not accept me as a muslim.(Becase they thin that I am) I am living in Europe as a practising Christian(even have Education from Norwegian Lutheran Collage)! But I feel like some people push me hard to question me their religion! By the way my fellow European friend, when did you read Bible last time?

  • Posted By: intermedusa @ 02/16/2008 5:47:04 AM

    KORAN IS THE ETERNAL WORD/TEACHINGS OF GOD. THIS MEANS FOREVER AND EVER; PART 1
    By
    Larry Houle
    www.godofreason.com

    The first and MOST IMPORTANT CONCEPT that you must understand about Islam is the following:
    All Muslims believe the Koran is the Eternal divine word of God, the Eternal laws of God. All Muslims believe that God authored the Koran and a copy of the Koran is in heaven. The Koran remains for all Muslims, not just fundamentalists, the uncreated word of God Himself. It is valid for all times and places forever; its ideas are absolutely true and beyond all criticism. To question it is to question the very word of God, and hence blasphemous. A Muslim's duty is to believe it and obey its divine commands without question.
    Muslims can be killed (beheaded) for doing any of the following:

    Reviling Allah or his Messenger; (2) being sarcastic about 'Allah's name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat; (3) denying any verse of the Quran or 'anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it; (4) holding that 'any of Allahs messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent; (5) reviling the religion of Islam; (6) being sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law; (7) denying that Allah intended 'the Prophet's message . . . to be the religion followed by the entire world.

    This means exactly what it says. ALL MUSLIMS BELIEVE that the Koran is the ETERNAL word/teachings of God to be followed without question. If a Muslim challenges or questions the Koran, HE IS NO LONGER A MUSLIM BUT AN APOSTATE OF ISLAM and can be killed.

    The Koran can never be changed not even one word. When you are reading teachings of the Koran, you are reading the word of God himself and you must OBEY. THERE IS NO CHOICE. There is no exercising free will, no employing logic, reason, rationality, morality. These teachings are for all time, FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER.

    This is the most important insanity that ALL Muslims believe, THAT MEANS ALL MUSLIMS. This belief in the KORNIC ETERNAL LAWS OF GOD is a disaster that has the potential to destroy humanity and civilization as we know it.

    2. The second most important concept concerning Islam is the Doctrine of Abrogation. You cannot comprehend Islam without a total and complete understanding of Abrogation.

    2:106 Whatever ayas We abrogate We bring better ones.

    16:101And when We change (one) communication for (another) communication, and Allah knows best what He reveals.

    The Verse of The Sword 9:50 (see Part 2 below) abolished 124 initial peace teachings of Koran including the famous verse: there is no compulsion in religion (Surah 2:256).

  • Posted By: intermedusa @ 02/16/2008 5:45:40 AM

    MURDER AND EXTERMINATION OF THE INFIDELS : PART 2

    By
    Larry Houle
    www.godofreason.com
    E-mail: intermedusa@yahoo.com

    The ten commandments teach: Thou Shalt Not Kill.

    In Islam, it is a holy religious duty to murder infidels. The Quran is written in the language of terrorism. It is filled with numerous verses urging the Muslims to terrorize the non Muslims, kill them, and take possession of their lands and properties. The important points to remember is that whatever Muhammad did to terrorize the infidels was actually the actions of God. Among the many verses which exhort Islamist terrorism, the following verses stand out as naked aggression of Allah/Muhammad on the unbelievers: 2:63, 3:151, 8:12, 8:60, 8:59, 9:29, 9:50 9:55, 11:102, and 17:59 These are the Eternal Laws of Allah authorizating murder and extermination as a holy duty.

    It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires [for you] the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty and Wise [Koran 8:67]
    When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)
    Verse 9:50 is the extermination of ALL INFIDELS from the face of the earth. It means exactly what it means. Kill ALL INFIDELS. This is an ETERNAL LAW OF GOD FOREVER.

    FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

    Verse 9:29 is the extermination of Christians and Jews from the face of the earth. They must either convert to Islam or pay a devastating submission tax and accept slavery as their future or be murdered if they refuse.

    Kill those who join other gods with Allah wherever you may find them. (9:5-6)
    So when you meet the infidels in battle, then cut off their heads, and after you have killed many of them by the sword, place [them] in shackles, and afterwards either set them free if you choose or let them ransom [themselves] until the war ends Koran 47:4

    Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods for theirs in return is the garden of Paradise they fight in his cause and slay and are slain a promise binding on him as truth 9.111
    For those Muslims who slay and are slain in fulfilling the above teachings, murdering Infidels, they are GUARANTEED accession to a sexual Paradise filled with full breasted, lustrous eyed eyes to sexually molest for all eternity.

    The above teachings are EVIL and only a small sample of 1000 teachings of hate, murder, extermination, terror that is the Koran.



  • Posted By: famulla @ 02/15/2008 9:59:02 PM

    The True Turkish Believer
    The true believers in Turkey are the Shias who have the mausoleum of the daughter of the Shia???s First Caliph Ali. She carried out the mission of the martyred Imam Hussein, her brother in Karbala and talked publicly of the atrocities on women by then the Shimr???s son of Yazid, the ardent follower of the breakers of the Islam religion. Imam Hussein incidentally saved the religion. The best mausoleums are of the twelve???s Imams. Check this out in Iran, Qum, Iraq, and Turkey. Why are they still preserved and the believers throng to go there on foot or at least once in life?
    Is that not enough economical value to Turkey? It is exactly like Hajj to Saudi. The money pours in via these visits. Cut this off, you have a bankrupt state of Turley. Industries are thriving I agree, but these are because of the brotherhoods that were bonded before the modern economy came in the picture
    Does that true Turkish believer hurl you, sir?

    I thank you.
    Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD
    P.O.Box 6044
    Dar-Es-Salaam
    Tanzania
    East Africa

  • Posted By: rightlyso @ 02/15/2008 2:03:22 PM

    I suggest that the Euopean Union use the Jew as the standard by which modern ethics is measured.
    The Jew has been ostracized from political and cultural influence since the reign of Abd al-Rahman in mid tenth century Cordoba, and even then only as a separate and inferior religious sect.
    When a small group is identified as racialy and religiously inferior it suggests that the political stability of a nation requires a scapegoat to blame for the the failures of cultural identity in the administration of religious and authoritarian politics.
    If the treatment of Jew is the acceptable standard, then there is reason to believe that there is equality for all in a nation desiring admission to a Union of Nations based on Human Rghts.

  • Posted By: Oblomov @ 02/13/2008 3:14:30 PM

    ??f you want to try keep western people on your side give them an example but Iran or Saudi Arabia must be in your comment. :) Its very cheap and pulp way. Please dont make drawnings about calamity and confusion scenarios on your mind. Everbody must look around and must see how many changes have been made by this administration and which one was bad thins?

  • Posted By: intermedusa @ 02/10/2008 9:25:50 AM

    EU DECLARATION DEMANDING REFORM OF ISLAM BEFORE TURKEY CAN JOIN: PART 1

    Larry Houle
    www.godofreason.com
    E-mail: intermedusa@yahoo.com

    It was Ronald Reagan who changed the course of history by declaring that the Soviet Union was an evil empire. The EU must demand the following reforms of Islamby Turkey:

    1. The end of the 1400 year old war against the Infidels.

    This means the renouncing, denouncing and removal from the Koran the close to 1000 fascist teachings of violence, terror, war, death and destruction, - that call for the extermination of all infidels espically Christians and Jews who refuse to convert to Islam.

    2. Renouncing, denouncing and removal from the Koran all teachings of the oppression, subjugation and repression of women.

    The total and complete equality of women in a democratic society without equivocation is absolutely essential to the reform of Islam. Nothing less is acceptable.

    3. Renouncing, denouncing and removal from the Koran all teachings of raping infidel slaves.

    4. Renouncing, denouncing and removal from the Koran all teachings of slavery. Slavery is the most vile, evil institutions ever invented by man. Slavery is a immortal eternal divine LAWS OF GOD in the Koran. There is no such LAWS OF GOD.

    5. Renouncing, denouncing and removal from the Koran all teachings of looting and pillaging and sharing the profit received from selling looted property and slaves with God.


    6. Renouncing, denouncing and removal from the Koran all teachings of brutality.


    7. Renouncing, denouncing and removal from the Koran all teachings of hate and racism.

    8. Renouncing, denouncing and removal from the Koran all teachings of murdering Apostates of Islam. The total and complete right of Muslims to leave Islam.


    9. Renouncing, denouncing and removal from the Koran all teachings of polygamy.


    • Posted By: erhantecim @ 02/12/2008 5:00:55 AM

      hello.. ?? couldnt understand which islam are you talking about.. what you written in here totally nonsense and barbarism. it is obvoius you dont know anything about islam religion. all your mind is fabrication. ?? m only laughing ::))

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