ROUNDTABLE

‘A Good Anchor’

Turkey's top tycoons speak out on ties to Europe, headscarves, the military and other controversies.

NEWSWEEK
From the magazine issue dated Feb 18, 2008

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  • Posted By: intermedusa @ 02/16/2008 1:05:55 AM

    KORAN IS THE ETERNAL WORD/TEACHINGS OF GOD. THIS MEANS FOREVER AND EVER; PART 1

    By
    Larry Houle
    www.godofreason.com

    The first and MOST IMPORTANT CONCEPT that you must understand about Islam is the following:
    All Muslims believe the Koran is the Eternal divine word of God ??? the Eternal laws of God. All Muslims believe that God authored the Koran and a copy of the Koran is in heaven. The Koran remains for all Muslims, not just "fundamentalists," the uncreated word of God Himself. It is valid for all times and places forever; its ideas are absolutely true and beyond all criticism. To question it is to question the very word of God, and hence blasphemous. A Muslim's duty is to believe it and obey its divine commands without question.

    Muslims can be killed (beheaded) for doing any of the following:

    Reviling Allah or his Messenger; (2) being sarcastic about 'Allah's name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat'; (3) denying any verse of the Quran or 'anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it'; (4) holding that 'any of Allah's messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent'; (5) reviling the religion of Islam; (6) being sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law; (7) denying that Allah intended 'the Prophet's message . . . to be the religion followed by the entire world.'

    This means exactly what it says. ALL MUSLIMS BELIEVE that the Koran is the ETERNAL word/teachings of God to be followed without question. If a Muslim challenges or questions the Koran, HE IS NO LONGER A MUSLIM BUT AN APOSTATE OF ISLAM and can be killed.

    The Koran can never be changed not even one word. When you are reading teachings of the Koran, you are reading the word of God himself and you must OBEY. THERE IS NO CHOICE. There is no exercising free will, no employing logic, reason, rationality, morality. These teachings are for all time - FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER.

    This is the most important insanity that ALL Muslims believe ??? THAT MEANS ALL MUSLIMS. This belief in the KORNIC ETERNAL LAWS OF GOD is a disaster that has the potential to destroy humanity and civilization as we know it.

    2. The second most important concept concerning Islam is the Doctrine of Abrogation. You cannot comprehend Islam without a total and complete understanding of Abrogation.

    2:106 Whatever ayas We abrogate We bring better ones.

    16:101And when We change (one) communication for (another) communication, and Allah knows best what He reveals.

    The Verse of The Sword 9:50 (see Part 2 below) abolished 124 initial peace teachings of Koran including the famous verse: there is no compulsion in religion (Surah 2:256). There is NO PEACE in Islam..

    islam is a 7th century ideology of war, death and destruction. This war is PERMANENT until only Muslims are left and the world is made entirely for Islam and Allah.

  • Posted By: intermedusa @ 02/16/2008 1:01:53 AM

    MURDER AND EXTERMINATION OF THE INFIDELS : PART 2

    By
    Larry Houle
    www.godofreason.com
    E-mail: intermedusa@yahoo.com

    The ten commandments teach: ???Thou Shalt Not Kill.???

    In Islam - it is a holy religious duty to murder infidels. The Qur???an is written in the language of terrorism. It is filled with numerous verses urging the Muslims to terrorize the non Muslims, kill them, and take possession of their lands and properties. The important points to remember is that whatever Muhammad did to terrorize the infidels was actually the actions of God. Among the many verses which exhort Islamist terrorism, the following verses stand out as naked aggression of Allah/Muhammad on the unbelievers: 2:63, 3:151, 8:12, 8:60, 8:59, 9:29, 9:50 9:55, 11:102, and 17:59 These are the Eternal Laws of Allah authorizating murder and extermination as a holy duty.

    It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires [for you] the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty and Wise [Koran 8:67]
    When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)
    Verse 9:50 is the extermination of ALL INFIDELS from the face of the earth. It means exactly what it means. Kill ALL INFIDELS. This is an ETERNAL LAW OF GOD FOREVER.

    FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

    Verse 9:29 is the extermination of Christians and Jews from the face of the earth. They must either convert to Islam or pay a devastating submission tax and accept slavery as their future or be murdered if they refuse.

    Kill those who join other gods with Allah wherever you may find them. (9:5-6)

    So when you meet the infidels in battle, then cut off their heads, and after you have killed many of them by the sword, place [them] in shackles, and afterwards either set them free if you choose or let them ransom [themselves] until the war ends Koran 47:4

    Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods for theirs in return is the garden of Paradise they fight in his cause and slay and are slain a promise binding on him as truth 9.111
    For those Muslims who slay and are slain in fulfilling the above teachings ??? murdering Infidels ??? they are GUARANTEED accession to a sexual Paradise filled with full breasted, lustrous eyed eyes to sexually molest for all eternity.

    The above teachings are EVIL and only a small sample of 1000 teachings of hate, murder, extermination, terror that is the Koran.


  • Posted By: intermedusa @ 02/14/2008 5:44:56 AM

    THE 36th CHAPTER: EU DECLARATION DEMANDING REFORM OF ISLAM BEFORE TURKEY CAN JOIN: PART 1

    Larry Houle
    www.godofreason.com
    E-mail: intermedusa@yahoo.com

    It was Ronald Reagan who changed the course of history by declaring that the Soviet Union was an evil empire. Islam is a 7th century ideology whose prime directive is the extermination of ALL INFIDELS from face of the earth. The EU must demand the following reforms of Islam by Turkey:

    1. The end of the 1400 year old war of extermination against the Infidels.

    This means the renouncing, denouncing and removing from the Koran - the close to 1000 fascist teachings of violence, terror, war, death and destruction, - that call for the extermination of all infidels espically Christians and Jews who refuse to convert to Islam.

    2. Renouncing, denouncing and removing from the Koran all teachings of the oppression, subjugation and repression of women.

    The total and complete equality of women in a democratic society without equivocation is absolutely essential to the reform of Islam. Nothing less is acceptable.

    3. Renouncing, denouncing and removing from the Koran all teachings of raping infidel slaves.

    4. Renouncing, denouncing and removing from the Koran all teachings of slavery. Slavery is the most vile, evil institutions ever invented by man. Slavery is an immortal eternal divine LAW OF GOD in the Koran. There is no such LAW OF GOD.

    5. Renouncing, denouncing and removing from the Koran all teachings of looting and pillaging and sharing the profit received from selling looted property and slaves with God.


    6. Renouncing, denouncing and removing from the Koran all teachings of brutality.


    7. Renouncing, denouncing and removing from the Koran all teachings of hate and racism.

    8. Renouncing, denouncing and removing from the Koran all teachings of murdering Apostates of Islam. The total and complete right of Muslims to leave Islam.


    9. Renouncing, denouncing and removing from the Koran all teachings of polygamy.


    10. The total and complete destruction of the sexually depraved Islamic Paradise of virgins who are to service the Men of Allah for all eternity. This evil Paradise for murderers is an outrageous affront and sin against God. To turn God into a pimp
    makes a mockery of everything God stands for. Over 1400 years, upwards of 270,000,000 people have been murdered by Muslim men so they could fulfill Koran teaching 9:111 and ascend to this place of obscenity. You cannot ascend to Paradise by climbing on the corpses of the murdered. Those who kill in the name of and to the greater glory of God will ascend not to Paradise but descend into the fires of hell.

    11.The total and complete destruction of Sharia Law and its replacement by separation of religion and state and democracy and freedom.

    • Posted By: nawawimohamad @ 02/15/2008 2:51:01 AM

      All 11 points that you have put down are rather twisted and orientalist in nature. If Islam is as what you have listed out, the present scenario would be the other way round! The west would have been subjugated and at he mercy of the Muslims - but it has never been and even until now the Muslims have been the ones who are continuosly being intimidated, ridiculed, harrassed, invaded and colonised by the west! Muslims have never made fun of other religions, it is the secular western people themselves who have bee ridiculing Christianity and Judaism in all sorts of form form cartoons, theatre, movies, articles, books, films and so on. You are one of them - the orientalists who are infact the danger to the whole world, trying to instigate hatred between the Jews, Christians and Muslims!

  • Posted By: intermedusa @ 02/14/2008 5:45:50 AM

    THE 36th CHAPTER: EU DECLARATION DEMANDING REFORM OF ISLAM BEFORE TURKEY CAN JOIN: PART 2

    Larry Houle
    www.godofreason.com
    E-mail: intermedusa@yahoo.com


    WHY THESE 1000 TEACHINGS OF EVIL, TERROR, MURDER, VIOLENCE AND SUBROGATION OF WOMEN MUST BE REMOVED FROM THE KORAN AND A NEW KORAN PUBLISHED?

    By leaving these violent and abhorrent teachings in the Koran, Muslims are in effect saying that these teachings are NORMAL. They are basically acquiescing to evil. Once you accommodate evil, you lose your moral center and become willingly or unwillingly an accomplice to evil. You cannot call yourself a Good Muslim ??? pray 5 times a day etc ??? and ignore the evil ??? the moral black hole that lies at very the heart of Islam.
    We can no longer allow Muslims to declare Islam as a Religion of Peace and Love and tolerance etc while leaving in the Koran and Islamic texts evil teachings calling for the destruction of infidels. We can no longer allow these Muslims to live in a fantasy world of an ALLAH of all Goodness and Muhammad ??? The Prophet of Peace while the Koran contains teachings of a hateful, murderous ALLAH (the ANTI GOD). By demanding that Muslims prove that they are Truly Peace Loving ??? by removing these evil teachings from the Koran ??? and condemning their evil founder Muhammad will be a TRUE MOMENT OF CATHARSIS FOR ISLAM.




  • Posted By: nawawimohamad @ 02/10/2008 3:26:19 AM

    Turkey is only rich for those tycoons and the rest of Turkey is poor. Turkey won't be allowed to be a EU member simply because it is a predominantly Muslim country. That is a fact and please do not be naive about that! But why should Turkey be begging shamelessly to be a EU member all at the expense of its own capacity as a country with its own strength, culture, reigion and legacy? It can be what it like. What is so great about becoming a EU member? Is it really glamorous?

    • Posted By: Froggie76 @ 02/10/2008 10:52:27 AM

      dear nawawimohamad,

      I don't know if you are a bigot or just so blindly narrow-minded that you failed to see there are deeper reasons than just 2 millenia of wars and mistrust between the Christian and Muslim worlds, for a federation of sovereign states (the EU) and a laic state (Turkey) to decide to postpone or refuse further political integration.
      true, muslim populations are often struggling to integrate in EU countries, but not because they are muslims, but because they are very often low-skilled, illiterate migrants and unwilling to assimilate themselves in a new culture. Instead they tend to coalesce in closed communautarism.
      the second and third generation of those migrants often do not-so-good in comparison to migrants from others religions, not because they are muslims, but rather because they are arabs or africans in countries who despite strong immigration records, are still very much distrutful of them. that's where 2 millenia of warring history comes in !!

      but even this, pale in comparison to the intense bigotry, xenophobia and utmost intolerance found in arabs/muslims countries around the world. Not even mentioning the dubious fairness of Sharia law, whose edicts are based more on the whims on those stuying it, than on a transparent and accountable system like in the western world.
      Ask yourself, why are there so few immigrants from other religions willing to stay in arab countries ?

      The reasons for refusing immediate accession of Turkeuy within the EU, are well-founded economical, political and societal reasons. Turkey is just not ready. Neither are Georgia or Ukraine or Maghreb countries either.


      Best regards,

      • Posted By: nawawimohamad @ 02/10/2008 11:23:22 PM

        Europe needed the immigrants for cheap unskilled manual labour that the Euripoeans themselves are not willing to do.Why then should you complain or give a lousy excuse that they are "often low-skilled, illiterate".There was no intention to educate and prepare them for assimilation into the European communities. Then why must you complain or give another stupid excuse that they are " unwilling to assimilate themselves in a new culture"! They immigrant are infact a"third class citizens", and please don't pretend otherwise! Then how can they assimilate when the Europeans have already set their minds on that sort of "apartheid"!

        It is also this "apartheid" mentality that is preventing the EU from accepting Turkey into the EU.

        • Posted By: Froggie76 @ 02/11/2008 10:09:54 AM

          dear nawawimohamad,

          You most definitely have a twisted mind of sort. I wonder if you have any factual idea of how life is in Europe for immigrants. all immigrants.
          For starter, native populations have no duties to educate or help to assimilate migrant populations. It is migrant populations who have a duty to be law-abiding and insert themselves into their host country economc, societal and poilitical framework.
          I agree with you that this process is much faster, if both sides are cooperating to this end, rather than ignoring the other. And in every western european countries there are countless working schemes,training and language programs, cultural associations to help migrant blend in.
          But too many of them don't. They prefer to stay away from a culture and society that is so often alien to them. And this is not the responsibility of native populations, but the failing of the migrant's home countries to advance toward modernisation rather than religious obscurantism, social and gender discrimination, educational enlightment, rule of law, economical and political transparency ... that results in those migrants being so unaware/unprepared for what awaits them.

          that is the situation with first-wave migrants coming in Europe from Africa, Middle-east and Central Asia. And yes, all too often, they happen to be muslims. but the religion is not the cause, their countries failings are.

          For second and third generation migrant, that's a different story, where racial discrimination is but one of many reasons why muslims all too often fails to move up the social ladder in Europe.
          Eastern Asians or South Americans or Indians don't have the same problems. Is it because of religion, that most of them are not muslims ? ... that would be a pathetic reason, wouldn't you agree ?

          Best regards,

          • Posted By: nawawimohamad @ 02/12/2008 3:58:45 AM

            The US on the other hand is more liberal and infact have special programs to help the immigrants to start anew with their lives. There is no such Muslim community problems and they are as economically active as the other non-Muslim immigrants and as American as they can be! Although there are still pockets in the US population that are still racially conservative, they are non-existent compared to Europe.

            In the first place if people are living good lives in their own countries, they would not want to emigrate to other countries. Anyhow their countries of origin would not want to be wasting their money to provide training (which they can't afford anyway), so that the skilled workers can move out to another country! The host country should provide the training to fit the workers into each industry. In Europe when the immigrants ( no matter what generations they are) are made redundant and jobs become scares, tthey are not needed anymore. It would be a slap on their faces( the Europeans) if all the unwanted immigrants were to be shipped back to their countries of origin. Since the majority of the immigrants in Europe are from Africa (especially northern Africa, thus many Muslims) whose presence are very significant in number compared to the Asians, the Europeans feels that it is not only become a problem but also a potential threat to their own European race, culture, religion and identity. The next best thing is to deny them of many things as possible. Then harass them,stigmatise them and label them with all sorts of things negative and fearful until they have no choice but return back to their original countries. But believe me it will not work. Anyhow the Europeans are not ready to abandon the "apartheid mentality". So, Mr. Froggie76 please be more sincere to yourself.

            • Posted By: Froggie76 @ 02/12/2008 12:48:17 PM

              yeah ... right :)
              I guess that as long as you have a single muslim or colored-skin family in a sea of white christian they don't feel it odd ... ask again that question when they start making up 20%, 30%, 50%+ of a local community if they wouldn't feel "threatened" in hteir livestyle ?
              btw how many muslims in America relative to the population? 2%, 3% ... how many in western europe ? 12%, 13% ...
              geez, go tell Latinos communities if they would feel that racially or religiously conservative Americans are close to non-existent ... and they are mostly christians ...

              It's your opinion to believe that in the US, muslims or low-skilled immigrants have more opportunities and help to get inserted than in Europe. I can understand where you are coming from, but I believe you are misguided, and that's not just because of lack of understanding of realities in Europe, but also because of the structure of immmigration to Europe and to the US.
              In essence, around 60% of immigrants to the US are medium to high-skilled, compared to around 20% for Europe. And whereas most immmigrants in the US are non-muslims Eastern Asians and South/Central Americans, they are in majority muslims africans and asians (middle-east, central asia) to go in Europe.
              Why ? because it's easier and cheaper to get there by foot/roads than to fly away or cross over oceans to get in the US ... notwithstanding freer immigration policy and border controls contrary to widespread belief ("open america" ... what a joke !!)

              Finally, I don't believe that Europeans have an "apartheid" mentality, they are rather open-minded and tolerant of others. And certainly a lot more when compared to muslim countries ...
              In any case, both US and western Europeans, despite alien misgivings, are definitely willing to give chance to foreigners to get in and assimilate in their cultures, but they don't have THE MORAL DUTY to change themselves to accomodate those migrants as you claim.
              Since when do you have to shut up in your own house because an uninvited unknown guy want to be the only one to speak ???

              Best regards,

              • Posted By: nawawimohamad @ 02/12/2008 11:53:44 PM

                That is the point. The Europeans needed those type of labour force, the unskilled, uneducated, infact just peasants and they got them. Then when there are problems resulting indirectly due to their lack of skills and education why should the Europeans abandon them now? Can't you see that they lack all the relevant potentials and at the same time being treated as a "third class citizen" - how do you expect them to assimilate? They will definitely have to have their own community for them to feel save, comfortable and have their own dignity! Yes the host nations do not have a MORAL DUTY to assimilate into their other's culture but don't put the blame on the immigrants if them are not able to assimilate into the host nation's culture as the reason I have given.

                In the US as long as you are law abiding, you can be as American as you can. And some of them are more Americans then the Americans themselves! Yes, there are Latinos and other communities, but nobody make a fuss about it! Nobody feels threatened by them and infact adds to the American Culture as a whole.

                • Posted By: Froggie76 @ 02/13/2008 11:54:43 AM

                  Like I said before man, you seem to look at the world, the way you see things around you.
                  You say that comunities in the US don't feel threatened when they swarmed by coloed-skin or religiously different people ... well I beg to diffeer ... go ask pple in the South-West if they feel at ease with Latinos. ... tell me why WASP communities tend to leave their neighbourdhood wheen too many dark-skinned pple start settling in ...
                  You also said, that in Europe, foreign migrants from 40 or 60 years ago can't get assimilated. That's BS, with no relevant fact. Actually, they are the ones among the most integrated.
                  Those first-genereation migrants who are actually causing issue are those coming NOW, for the past 10-15 years. Not because they are criminal, net on destroying everything on their path. But simply because the economic situation is not the same anymore in Europe as it was after the WW2 ... and for political and social choices, why should host populations change their ways to accomodate unwanted migrants ? just because they are migrants or muslims ... that's just not right.

                  I don't want to sound too dismissive or arrogant, but hey, you definitely got a problem with your world view and intellectual honesty, when facts don't square up with your beliefs or illusions.

                  Best regards,

                  • Posted By: nawawimohamad @ 02/13/2008 11:07:42 PM

                    Okay Froggie76, have it your way. I'll have mine. Thank you for the discussion and join me on other issues when we meet again. Have a good day.

  • Posted By: vicphil @ 02/10/2008 8:15:45 AM

    The Christian-Muslim conflict will forever be an emotional issue. It is no different from White vs Black in the US which will forever be a conflict. People of any color or religion has the right to like or dislike anyone different from him/her. That is why it is very important that laws against racism and religious discrimination are strictly enforced. One reason why I consider USA the greatest nation on earth is because it enforces legal






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