In Defense of Secularism

by the way the comment written on 05/02/2008 4:15:22 Am is kinda not mine... i was trying out something.. so sorry johndavidprince... ^^

oh my goodness, i plagrise johndavidprince.. sry.. ^^ anyway i wanna comment on his comments.. the values of secularism is decided by man themselves. It changes with the society perception or what humanist likes to say "evolves" with time.. for example in the past abortions tend to be view as evil in the mainstream.. but now people think differently.. they feel that getting your unborn kid killed is just killing a bunch of cells.. perfectly alright.. and now there are laws that legalise abortion.. humans have a tendency to go deeper into immorality.. just like cooking a live frog, you won't cooked it with boiling water straight but you will boil it slowly alive.. thats the same as human beings.. we hardened ourselves to this "little stuff" such as abortion or homosexualism.. next we will consider suicides as a choice in the name of freedom.. finally we degrade ourselves further because what we considered right is wrong now.. Yes, i am a christian and i support the fact of a government that lets the Bible be their rulebook.. i wanna clarify certain stuff regarding having multiple wives... what God intended in the Bible is a man to a woman.. see Genesis which i believe u are very familiar since u can quote so many verses.. He created ONE man and ONE woman for the purpose of marriage and bind into a single entity.. it is never God's intention for a man to have multiple wifes... but u will say what about the jewish patriachs that have mutiple wives.. God never say a single word that he endorse mutiple relationships in his Bible.. although He remain silent towards for example Abraham mutiple wives.. that doesn't mean He approves it.. another example again Abraham lied to one of the pagan kings regarding Sarah his wife.. but God did not bellow his voice and condemn him immediately.. does that mean God promotes deception.. no obviously, the Bible clearly states deception is a sin.. i believe the way of you interpreting the Bible is not taking the entire thing into context.. which is why u are making such erroraneous statements.. i think i spell that error word wrongly ^^

This is not in any way an argument for atheism; rather it is an argument for true Liberty.
Christians, Muslims, and Orthodox Jewish religion love to toss around the words secular and atheist as if they are the same thing. This is the height of idiocracy and ignorance. Secularism is a style of government. Atheism is a system of thought or belief in the lack of belief in any higher power or God. Secularism is the separation of God and the State or God and government. Atheists do not separate anything; it is the absolute rejection of any belief in God. Secularism is a methodology, a system, or a form of governance. Secular government separates religion, church, or God from government in order to protect all thought, belief, and religion. The government must remain secular so that Christians can continue to believe as they see fit and the sane applies to Muslims Buddhists, Hindus, and Atheists or Agnostics, any belief. Secular government is not atheistic government; rather it is the removal of religion from government so that all the other rights that we enjoy may exist. Without secular government there would be no free speech, free thought, free expression, free belief (freedom of religion), or even the ability to have fair due process.
Without secular government and the protection of our separation of church and state we will eventually evolve into a Theocracy. When secular government goes the way of the Dinosaurs we loose religious freedom. (Many Christians feel that religious freedom means the freedom of Christianity and nothing else) The dominant religion will always take the positions of power and thus enforce its will or faith (theology) upon the entire population if the state gives up on the restriction in the constitution of government promotion of religion and the establishment of any state religion. Many Christians and Muslims or Jewish followers feel that all other religions are not real, true, or correct versions of faith, which denotes all other religions to the classification of non-religion. This is a sad reality when you converse with religious people you will find that the main three religions share this false religion dogma. The sick fact that all three use terms like heathen, apostate, blasphemer, and non-believer which is the same as infidel.

hi everyone i am new here.

This is for those who doubt the need for secular government in the US.
We do not consider that much of the covenants or Biblical law is not legal in our modern secular world. Christianity, Judaism, and Islamic religious beliefs have one thing in common, the Old Testament and many of the same prophets. Think about or read the Old Testament or New Testament and consider what verses are by modern legal standards, not legal. The list is long. If you do not believe me, please do the research for yourself. Here are some verses that are against the law in the U.S.A. and the modern secular world.
(Leviticus 20:13/24:16/24:10-15/25:44//27:29/, Numbers 15:35-36/31:31-40, Deuteronomy 22:28-29/21:15/21:18-21/22:13-24/13:6-18, Hosea 2:2-13/9:12-16, Exodus 35:2/21:7/22:18/22:20/22:19/31:14-16, Zechariah 13:3, Judges 11:30-40, Daniel 11:30-39, Jeremiah 12:14-17, Matthew 5:25, Samuel 15:3/10:21, 1st Samuel 15:3, 1st Timothy 2:12, Psalm 12:3/137:8-9 These are only a few examples. Concubines and multiple wives are illegal in the modern world yet are permitted within the Bible. I am thankful for secular, rational government otherwise we would live in a nation reminiscent of Afghanistan under the Taliban. Yet there are some people here in the U.S.A. that would be perfectly fine with Biblical Law becoming the Law of the Land. This is why we must defend the separation of Church and State by denying or refusing government Promotion of Religion. If we do not we loose our precious Liberty. Some Christians would argue that Christ would not enforce these verses. They would be incorrect due to the very fact that Christ was Jewish and held Moses Law in high regard. Christ mentions Old Testament Law many times through out the Bible. Jesus refers to Moses directly in verses (Matthew 5:17, John 5:45-47, Luke 24:44, John 6:19-23, and Hebrews 11:23-29). At any time Christians can revert to the now illegal aspects of the Bible. There is much in the Bible that is unethical, immoral, and despicable. Unfortunately it is the God of the Bible who is the one acting with such ugly behavior. This is the reason why religion and government must always be separated as our constitution has wonderfully provided for.

Hay Florida:
Thank any God you want for that.
There are many Biblical verses about the forbid the use of molten images, or any image bowed down to and worshiped like God, in the Old Testament and New Testament. Yet a license plate is a very molten image. Image worship seems to be the trend with many of the religious followers these days. Some people want everyone to see their cross, fish, or other image depicting that they are special due to their chosen label. This is their right, but it is not the proper or constitutionally acceptable place to display religion, your license plate. If Florida will be allowing religiously specific license plates, will they allow Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Satanic, Jewish, or whatever my personal God symbol happens to be on a State Issued, tax payer Funded, personalized license plate? Would the state of Florida allow a ? mark for the Agnostics? I doubt it. The excuse would be vast and wide for why, just as the lame excuses for why the state of Florida has no respect for the constitution and its ban of any state promotion of religion. The explanations will sound patriotic on the surface but in the end they will be only an excuse for why Florida does not have to enforce the constitution or respect for other differing individuals. Will Florida allow someone to put am ???I Hate God??? statement as their license plate? I doubt it. Would Florida have to make room for a ???My God is Better than Your God??? or ???Satan loves You??? statement on their plate? Now that would be constitutional.

Without secular government, Liberty would become extinct.
This is not in any way an argument for atheism; rather it is an argument for true Liberty.
Christians, Muslims, and Orthodox Jewish religion love to toss around the words secular and atheist as if they are the same thing. This is the height of idiocracy and ignorance. Secularism is a style of government. Atheism is a system of thought or belief in the lack of belief in any higher power or God. Secularism is the separation of God and the State or God and government. Atheists do not separate anything; it is the absolute rejection of any belief in God. Secularism is a methodology, a system, or a form of governance. Secular government separates religion, church, or God from government in order to protect all thought, belief, and religion. The government must remain secular so that Christians can continue to believe as they see fit and the sane applies to Muslims Buddhists, Hindus, and Atheists or Agnostics, any belief. Secular government is not atheistic government; rather it is the removal of religion from government so that all the other rights that we enjoy may exist. Without secular government there would be no free speech, free thought, free expression, free belief (freedom of religion), or even the ability to have fair due process.
Without secular government and the protection of our separation of church and state we will eventually evolve into a Theocracy. When secular government goes the way of the Dinosaurs we loose religious freedom. (Many Christians feel that religious freedom means the freedom of Christianity and nothing else) The dominant religion will always take the positions of power and thus enforce its will or faith (theology) upon the entire population if the state gives up on the restriction in the constitution of government promotion of religion and the establishment of any state religion. Many Christians and Muslims or Jewish followers feel that all other religions are not real, true, or correct versions of faith, which denotes all other religions to the classification of non-religion. This is a sad reality when you converse with religious people you will find that the main three religions share this false religion dogma. The sick fact that all three use terms like heathen, apostate, blasphemer, and non-believer which is the same as infidel.

The term Secular has been tainted by many in the US to mean Atheism with out thinking about why government is Secular. Secular government is the removal of religion from state, the removal of religion from reason, logic, and law while respecting its existence outside of government. Secular Government protects the freedom of religion by not including it in the laws that govern the nation. Steven Waldman (speaking of faith NPR) could not be more incorrect when he mentions the founding fathers personal belief as proof that religion or the church should fuse with government. State written prayers, church/religion, or state belief systems violate the individuals right to believe as they choose. Steven Waldman should realize that a secular government keeps any singular form of religion from taking control of the government. A secular system of democracy is the cornerstone to the foundation of the amendments that allow citizens the right to believe in any or no religious system. The separation of church and state or the anti-establishment clause of the constitution allows Christian religious conservatives to practice their faith as they see fit. As well it protects the Buddhist, Hindu, or any other religion, the freedom of religion does not mean that any one religion has a right to use the state as a tool for self-advancement. The argument that the separation is a gray area is a fallacy. A nation is either secular or theocratic. There is no gray area. The separation of church and state was not intended for the flourishing of any one religion. It was intended to keep all belief free by keeping the state out or belief. There is no mention of any sectarian definition of God used in any historical document of the US, nor should there be. Waldman should remember that there was no founding faith outlined in the declaration of independence or the constitution. I would ask Waldman who???s God does it refer to? Does religion truly make for improved civic or individual behavior patterns? Some of the worst elements of society have been devoutly religious, Hitler, the BTK killer, the leaders of the Christian and Muslim crusades, the witch hunters of Europe and early America, Bin Laden, and on and on it goes. Yes there was Stalin and Poll Pot but they pale in comparison to the religious violence perpetrated over the thousand of years. So I would argue that the founding fathers knew history well and that is why they created a secular government even while they may have been religious themselves. It is sad that many Christians hear the term religion and think only of themselves. How greedy and self-serving. We must realize that secularism rejects religion in government while recognizing its right to exist separate from government, in the privacy of your home and places of worship. It recognizes God given rights while not recognizing any particular organized religion.

Chris Hedges claims that some atheists want to eradicate religious fundamentalists. Christopher Hitchens may want terrorists dead bur I am sure he would rather see the fundamentalism die off and not the actual innocent population. Hedges plays with word context to suit his defense of faith, a faith that cannot be proven nor disproved. Hedges claims that loneliness, beauty, love, alienation, suffering, and death are outside of ???rational deduction.??? He must not have taken biochemistry, psychology, or much sociology otherwise he may realize that we have found many of the factors, chemical, or neurological processes of those aspects. I respect his writing skills and his abilities as a journalist, but he is missing the point of what most atheists believe. Atheists do not want to convert you they only want to be left alone by those who wish to convert them. He fails to give any breath to those atheists. Hedges violates his own disdain for fundamentalism by being fundamental about people like Dawkins for using their imaginations. Hedges is a non-fundamentalist absolutist attempting to rewrite history. Chris Hedges tries to place the blame for horrid events in history upon reason, logic, and science, while excusing human nature. If we truly used logic or reason humans would realize the folly of genocide, hate, and living in ignorance. Logic and reason are not theology or ideology, instead they are the only process that separate us form the earthworm. He maintains that the evil in human nature is something we should just accept. I postulate that Hedges exposure to war and injustice have left him without hope. Hedges should remember that reason or logic are not ideology, they are methods for which he owes his entire education and ability to create a complete sentence.

contin. hedges- He displays an ignorance of history, vocabulary and other aspects of psychology with many of his statements. I was most disturbed by his disrespect for education as indoctrination. The last time I checked 2 plus 2 equals 4 and there is no debate on that fact. Giving our youth facts is not indoctrination. Hedges should realize that science is a method not a religion. Science can be use for good or evil, rather it is mankind with preconceived notions forged by religions that try to misuse science to rebuff their set beliefs, science must remain neutral. Science is the use of reason and logic through methodology to reach or obtain truth and fact. Religion is theology. It does not even approach theory, for theory has some evidence to back it up. Religion is faith. Science is not a faith, as Hedges would claim. His book is a sly attempt to modernize religion while neutralizing those who dare question if there is a God or not. It is also an attempt to excuse religion of its role in modern society and shift the blame to science or reason. The Enlightenment was a major event in history without it we would all be living in theocracies. It was religious people who added some aspects of the Enlightenment to their tool belt of control, while sadly misinterpreting the real use of the scientific process.

-Logic and reason are not theology or ideology, instead they are the only process that separate us form the earthworm-
I do not care if God is real or not. It cannot be proven either way, instead I would like to concern myself with matters more pressing than an argument that cannot be argued. Weather or not the Bible is the word of a God can be argued, but that is not why I am challenging the convoluted logic of Chris Hedges. He has an interesting while disturbing comprehension of the Human condition. His book, I don???t believe in atheists: have only two things correct. 1.Humans can exhibit the best of behaviors and the worst of behaviors. 2. Fundamentalism is the root cause of much of societies suffering. Where he goes totally wrong is that he ignores the fact that Hitler was a believer in Divine Right or Divine Providence while proclaiming his and the German devotion to Christianity and God. It is proven history through the study of Hitler???s speeches that the basis of the supremacist utopia preached by the Nazi leader mention his devotion to his religion. Not his devotion to science. Hedges also attempts to blame the entire history of slavery on science or the Enlightenment of Europe, while denying the historical aspects of the use of Biblical verse to create the foundation for the despicable act of slavery. Chris Hedges also makes a stretch to include the plight of the Native Americans as the direct result of the Enlightenment, science or reason. Sorry, Religious bigotry was also a prime factor in the attempted extermination of the Native Americans. He tries to blame the British Imperialism on Darwin and the Enlightenment. Darwin was rejected by many of the social power structures of Britain at the time. The industrialists or supremacists of the time, taking advantage of Darwin???s insights and an innocent science, heralded eugenics as their tool of control. Hedges combines secularism with atheism with questionable motives. Hedges should remember that without secular government he would not have written some of his earlier books. Secularism is not the belief that God does not exist. It is the removal of God from government while respecting the belief of God outside of government.

As well it protects the Buddhist, Hindu, or any other religion, the freedom of religion does not mean that any one religion has a right to use the state as a tool for self-advancement. The argument that the separation is a gray area is a fallacy. A nation is either secular or theocratic. There is no gray area. The separation of church and state was not intended for the flourishing of any one religion. It was intended to keep all belief free by keeping the state out or belief. There is no mention of any sectarian definition of God used in any historical document of the US, nor should there be. Waldman should remember that there was no founding faith outlined in the declaration of independence or the constitution. I would ask Waldman who???s God does it refer to? Does religion truly make for improved civic or individual behavior patterns? Some of the worst elements of society have been devoutly religious, Hitler, the BTK killer, the leaders of the Christian and Muslim crusades, the witch hunters of Europe and early America, Bin Laden, and on and on it goes. Yes there was Stalin and Poll Pot but they pale in comparison to the religious violence perpetrated over the millennia. So I would argue that the founding fathers knew history well and that is why they created a secular government even while they may have been religious themselves. It is sad that many Christians hear the term religion and think only of themselves. How greedy and self-serving. We must realize that secularism rejects religion in government while recognizing its right to exist separate from government, in the privacy of your home and places of worship. It recognizes God given rights while not recognizing any particular organized religion.

The term Secular has been tainted by many in the US to mean Atheism with out thinking about why government is Secular. Secular government is the removal of religion from state, the removal of religion from reason, logic, and law while respecting its existence outside of government. Secular Government protects the freedom of religion by not including it in the laws that govern the nation. Steven Waldman (speaking of faith NPR) could not be more incorrect when he mentions the founding fathers personal belief as proof that religion or the church should fuse with government. State written prayers, church/religion, or state belief systems violate the individuals right to believe as they choose. Steven Waldman should realize that a secular government keeps any singular form of religion from taking control of the government. A secular system of democracy is the cornerstone to the foundation of the amendments that allow citizens the right to believe in any or no religious system. The separation of church and state or the anti-establishment clause of the constitution allows Christian religious conservatives to practice their faith as they see fit.

"Secular", as described by Ms. Miller's teacher, was not a neutral word if it was used to differentiate non-religious governments from those in which 'those speaking for God made the rules - rules that sometimes were corrupt and unfair". All governments sometimes make corrupt and unfair rules, including secular governments. The real advantage of some - not all - secular governments is that the government does not penalize any particular views on religion. There is no guarantee that they will not be corrupt and unfair, about religion or about anything else.

Moreover, countries that do have official state-recognized religions, like many of the European countries, also do not penalize religious belief (or lack of it) and some countries with secular government have penalized religious beliefs.

Describing secular vs religious government as in the article contributes to the use of 'secular' as a negative rather than a neutral term.

I enjoyed reading the article titled "In Defense of Secularism." I also learned the word "secular" as referring to something that has nothing to do with religion. In spite of having what many people would call secular leanings. I am in agreement with the last sentence of the next to last paragraph, preferring to call myself a humanist.

In her 25 February 2008 Newsweek ???Belief Watch??? editorial entitled ???In Defense of Secularism,??? author Lisa Miller laments the evolution of the definition of the word ???secularism??? as it is currently applied in describing our federal government. In alleging modern misuse of the word, she simultaneously neglects the reality that the word ???religion??? also has changed in meaning since its 18th century use in the First Amendment.

Then, unlike now, the phrase ???Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion??? meant that there was to be no establishment of ??? in 21st Century vernacular ??? any single Christian (or Jewish) ???denomination??? by our federal government. This can be seen in a plethora of primary documents written by our Founding Fathers, and in light of contemporary events relative to their lives.

The Establishment Clause certainly was not intended to mean government devoid of, antagonistic to, or apathetic toward ???Almightie God??? (The First Virginia Charter, 1606), who is the God ???of the Christian Faith??? (The Mayflower Compact, 1620). This is the same God that our Patriot Founders politically referred to as ???Creator,??? ???Supreme Judge of the world,??? and ???divine Providence??? (The Declaration of Independence, 1776).

The regular practice of Christian worship and celebrations by our Founders is widely documented by a multitude of sources. These men were Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists and Catholics who all respected the legal right to freely worship the God of the Bible and the Torah, as the following words of George Washington, written to a Jewish synagogue in Savannah, Georgia reflect: ???How blessed is the nation whose God is Jehovah.???

???Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion??? was understood to mean that, unlike the tradition in England and other parts of Europe in the 1700s, the recently formed federal government of the United States of America ??? created by a Constitution overtly reflecting Biblical principles ??? was lawfully forbidden from instituting the formation of a national Christian denomination.

Ronald S. Toth
Newton Falls, Ohio

When religion and politics are meshed, both are weakend.