Without protection against lawsuits, are the telecoms less willing to cooperate with government spying efforts?
Comment: If the government has a legal warrant than lawsuit or no lawsuit they have to obey the law. What is so hard to understand about this issue?
Comment: If we Degrade the Bill of Rights so that corperations have no oversight when they have blatently broken the law we might as well erase the names of those buried at Arlington Nat. Cem. from the head stones. Just because a Corp. has a lawsuit against it does not preclude them from future Legal Surveillance programs. As well I believe the President is attempting to evade potential discovery of his program if the suits go foward.
Comment: Telecoms have to cooperate when a court issues a warrant. That is the law. The President has an argument that is not based in reality. How would any litigation from thier poss. lawsuits effect their participation if future FISA spying. The issue is, will we give a pass to warrantless wiretaps? If we do we errode the right of a redress of grievances and the right of Privacy. If we reliquish our sovereignty, our Liberty, we degrade the Bill of Rights.
Comment: We are a country ruled by law. We declared our independence from a Monarchy - where the King ruled as well as reigned. A Monarchy is a very personal form of government, centered around an individual. Ours is a constitutional government (it seems so silly to have to repeat that) - We are governed by law and that process has served the populace very well.....
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/02/28/the-personal-presidency-of-george-w-bush/
Comment: IN THIS ENVIORNMENT OF ECONOMIC FEUDALISM WHERE THE MIDDLE CLASS MUST SUFFER IN ORDER TO INCREASE THE pROFITS OF MULTINATIONAL CORpORATIONS, WHO BENEFIT FROM CHEAp LABOR, THE AMERICAN DREAM HAS BEEN LOST.
MULTINALTIONALS FROM INDIA HAVE BROUGHT THEIR CHEAp WAyS TO AMERICA. WE NOW HAVE AMERIANS GOING TO GET HEART SURGERy IN INDIA BEAUSE IT IS CHEApER. OUR INFORMATION TECHNOLy JOBS HAVE BEEN OUTSOURCED TO INDIA.
CHINA WAITS UNTIL WE INVENT IT AND THEN THEy STEAL IT. WHy REINVENT THE WHEEL.
ARABS FINANCIERS OWN OVER TWELVER pER CENT OF OUR ECONOMy AND IN RECENT MONTTHS HAVE "BAILED" OUT OUR BANKS. IN ADDITION, ARAB INTEREST FROM DUBAI AND KUWAIT HAVE FINANCED OUR pOLITICAL LEADERS ENDEVOURS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE pOLITICAL SpECTRUM.. IT IS TIME FOR A CHANGE.
We have been fooled by our own government and there is no way any Republican is going to win this election. THE Middle class has had it with all this Bin LADEN terrorist crap. WE are now scared of our own government more than we are of the terrorist because the decisions this government is making on our behalf is not in our best interests and it is killing us. The government is now dominating our civil liberties. They are giving the states millions for Real ID Cards. This is just the start of government intrusion. Combine this with the misuse of the Patriot Act and the future Plans of insurance comPanies and corporations to have full access to our personal records and we have a real crisis.
Credit Card companies have already started selling and sharing our personal information with the private sector. We really have to wake up and protect our constitution it is all we have to defend ourselves against interests that become too rich and powerful in this country. The government keeps expanding and is being predominantly controlled by special interest and lobbyist. The middle class is being weakened and our civil liberties are being threatened. Real ID Cards will not make "us safer" infacat terrorists can obtain fake ones and move about freely. The American people did not vote on Real ID Cards, we need a vote. Our constitution would have to be ammended in order for Real ID's to become legal. I do not know what has happened in Washington but it is getting out of hand. They know what they are doing is unconstitutional so they are trying to bribe the states by offering them money. I hope every state agrees with me and Prevents the federal govenment from imPosing THIS unconstitutional law. If the states allow the government to do this then they would have set a bad Precedent that could lead to further government violations.
WHy IS THERE A NEED TO WIRE TAp EVERy CITIZEN. ARE yOU KIDDING ME. yOU NEED A WARRANT. THIS IS MADNESS. GOVERNMENT IS USING TERRORISM AS AN EXCUSE TO INTRUDE ON OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES. THIS IS INSANE.
McCain will continue to implementt these misguided REpublian policies. McCain's ONE HUNDRED year agenda is not in AMERICA"s BEST INTEREST.
Comment: -since when did it become too much efffort to expect a third party, ie. a judge, to look over the reasons that the government wants this information, before a business which provides "privacy" simply turns over records to them without ANY fear of being taken to task (again, in a court of law) for doing so. Immunity is how the executive branch is trying to take the judicial branch, the part fo the government designed to protect the rights of the powerless, out of the equation. I have no problem with co operation, but get a warrant first, so I know exactly WHY I am cooperating, not just because the big powerful feds will reward me for doing so, or punish me for failing to volunteer something that is not mine to offer.
Comment: Listening In?
i just saw this news on this dating site ---------- Tallmeet.com --------before
Comment: Without protection i would not cooperate. That would be tantamount so setting msyslelf up for disaster. If i am asked to expose myself or my business to possible damaging litigation i am left with little choice not to go down that road to begin with.
Comment: How much privacy do we really have these days? Unless you have found a way to live totally "off the grid" as it were, if you brought a house, car, shopped on line or used a credit card, your on a list somewhere. The amount of information that has been collected on individuals by private companies and utilized by the government, or other individuals is staggering. For a price, anyone can find anything out everyone with just the click of a mouse. Our right to privacy ended with the advent of the information age. We demand anonymity, yet post our peccadilloes on every medium available guaranteeing our nortoriety for posterity. Yet we want privacy. If you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear. But, if your diabolical machinations interfere with my right to life and liberty, then I think that the government who has a mandate under the Constitution to provide for the common defense, step up and protect those rights that others have fought and continue to fight and die for.
Comment: Um...Im not disagreeing with you to a point..But...the government has always and will always be spying on little brother. Thats just how society works. Even when the constitution was drawn up the government kept tabs on ppl. Intercepting letters from Europe/ the King to certain troops or divisions, to find out what was happening. Now with all this technology, and the fact that ppl are so corrupt and want to do the governments in we have to keep tabs on ppl. Im sure the founding fathers had no idea that we would ever be at war with extreme fanatics half a world away....Or would even fathom the thought of the type of communications we would have today. This is considered war against terrorism and there elements, not against us. Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about. P.S. Looking a certain sites under law is freedom of speech, and expression...So an employer could be so nailed if did NOT hire someone under those circumstances. Depending on the job.
Comment: lets make it a little more simle. The government "aslks" the telecom companies to send a list of every web site that you or anyone in your family has ever visited on the web. the telecom "cooperates". three years later, you apply for a job, and are rejected because your employer has a report that someone in you rhouse once visited a porn website. Should you be allowed to sue the telecom company (whether the report is true or not), or should they be immune because the government "asked" them to cooperate?
It isn't about protecting terrorists, its about whether you trust YOUR government to take private information that they have no legal rights to and handle it correctly. If you trust your government, then good for you, you are not of the same belief as the people who created our constitution, becaue the founders, the ones the right wing always turns to, told us to never trust our government, and deliberately set up a system where the people were never required to.
Comment: LOL at Bushco comment...Well If some ppl want to get technical Clinton was at the helm when they actually had a local tribes cross hairs on Bin Ladens turbin covered head..Clinton cancelled the order to shoot...Why?...Probably cause the Lewensky scandal wasnt underway yet....If we were in the middle of that scandal, you can bet your moms backhair that he would have ordered the hit to commence to drive attention away from the IMPEACHMENT proceedings. But instead he lauched a couple of cruise missles at Iraq to draw our attetion away from Monicas blue dress, and the "Oral" office...Too bad it didnt work....9/11 was well in the works before Bush ever came to office. We need a network of international communications tapping for the safety of all nations who are against terrorism...Doesnt matter what any party of President says, the terrorists want to attack any, and all of us that are against there fanatical ways.... WE need to keep tabs as best we can on those clowns.....thats a fact.
Comment: Immunity is not what is needed. A duly issued warrant is all that Government needs to Compel "cooperation." Upholding our laws is not a game where ones cooperation is a requirement. The telecoms are not above the law nor should they ever be. A law granting a blanket immunity places them above it to the detriment of us all.
Comment: Any competent intelligence agent can collect sufficient data either overtly or covertly to predict and prevent disaters without the need for laws which, in effect, create a police state. And without violating the rights of law abiding citizens. The lazy, easy way is to use police state methods These methods ALWAYS recoil on their employers. Good riddance to the Tekom law. It was/is attempt to create the Soviet Union of America.
Comment: Even reading this article could cost lives ....
Comment: Bush has immunized the Pope against the law of the land when he should be acting in the interests of children. He has tried to immunize his own administration. He has tried to immunize the CIA. We pay taxes, we finance government and we do not condone the breaking of the law. Here the President has again acted against the interest of the American people, and punishment will follow, otherwise we are not a free and lawfull country at all. In fact this administration appears to be spending most of it's time (when working at all) in defending itself and others against the laws of the land. The message is Mr. President: don't break the law.
Comment: In a democratric society we need to sue companies and goverments for wrongdoing. This immunization of telecoms puts our goverment on par with the soviet state in the 50's and the german state in the 40's. Open goverment is one of our most sacred liberty's and under the Bush/Chaney regime it has suffered a far greater attack than the twin towers in NY on 9/11 . . . Frenchynh
Comment: In a democratric society we need to sue companies and goverments for wrongdoing. This immunization of telecoms puts our goverment on par with the soviet state in the 50's and the german state in the 40's. Open goverment is one of our most sacred liberty's and under the Bush/Chaney regime it has suffered a far greater attack than the twin towers in NY on 9/11 . . . Frenchynh
Comment: In a democratric society we need to sue companies and goverments for wrongdoing. This immunization of telecoms puts our goverment on par with the soviet state in the 50's and the german state in the 40's. Open goverment is one of our most sacred liberty's and under the Bush/Chaney regime it has suffered a far greater attack than the twin towers in NY on 9/11 . . . Frenchynh
Comment: If the Feds follow the FISA law the telecoms have nothing to fear. Simple.
Comment: AGAIN...
Comment: I'm still wating for someone to actually ANSWER these questions!
Comment: Why is it necessary to listen to the phone calls of "FELLOW AMERICANS" to stop Al-Queda?
What do the phone calls of Americans have to do with fighting foreign arab/muslum terrorists?
Did American citizens have anyting to do with 911? Was a single American citizen flying one of those planes?
Why is it necessary to wire-tap the American population to stop terrorists in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia?
Why is the old FISA law that let the government listen, then go to a judge "after" to explain why they listened to the phone call of a fellow American insufficient?
Why don't they just "wire-tap" foreign terrorists that plan to hurt us and leave the American people alone?
Who are they really listening too...and why? How are my tax dollars being stolen?
Is everyone asleep?
Comment: Please read the op-ed in today's Wall Street Journal about the FISA law. It should explain some things. What you have heard is a misrepresentation of the problem. We need the ability to listen to foreign to foreign correspondence that passes through the US. American citizens always have 4th amendment protections, even if they are overseas. Of course radicals could be talking to some U.S. citizens but that would be pretty rare. Even so, those Americans, innocent or hostile alike, would be subject to 4th amendment protections. It really is about the fact that so much of the world's communications pass through the states--that is a legal problem. But, politically, it is easier to just tell everyone that Bush wants to spy on Americans....
Comment: So let me get this shiit straight. An unnamed source tells us of an unnamed telecom company that says they may not be as willing to help violate the law. And the down side of this pussie fest is...?
Comment: Actually Jimbo, the reigning member of said Bush family was NOT on duty for the first 30 minutes or so of the attack on America - the first 6 minutes of which were spent on the reading of "My Pet Goat" ; while our leader could have, and should have, been addressing the issue of intercept and possible shootdown of hi-jacked airliners. A situation which was left to flounder and fail while our Commander in Chief stopped to "shoot the breeze" with local teachers for even another 20 minutes or so beyond the completion of his reading assignment! Why was he so unconcerned while Americans were jumping from the WTC to their deaths?? Sleep well fellow citizen.....
Comment: Actually Jimbo, the reigning member of said Bush family was NOT on duty for the first 30 minutes or so of the attack on America - the first 6 minutes of which were spent on the reading of "My Pet Goat" ; while our leader could have, and should have, been addressing the issue of intercept and possible shootdown of hi-jacked airliners. A situation which was left to flounder and fail while our Commander in Chief stopped to "shoot the breeze" with local teachers for even another 20 minutes or so after his reading assignment! Why was he so unconcerned while Americans were jumping from the WTC to their deaths?? Sleep well fellow citizen.....
Comment: We've had plenty of information on terrorist plans before 9/11. What we really needed was a president who didn't ignore it, like Bush did after he got a memo entitled "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the US" the month before 9/11. He was too busy clearing brush on his Crawford ranch. The only reason the Republicans want all these illegal powers is to keep track of dissidents -- not terrorists.
Comment: "The only reason the Republicans want all these illegal powers is to keep track of dissidents -- not terrorists." - Spacer.
The emperor has no clothes.
Comment: "The Bushco Crime Family was on duty when 9/11 happened" wow, what a deep and intellectual statement. Of course, following this stellar logic (from our self-professed legal scholar, no less), then FDR is responsible for WWII, Lincoln is reponsible for the Civil War, and on and on. Oh, and I know I'll sleep better tonight knowing that self-appointed guardians of the constitution such as yourself are on guard to protect my civil liberties. How can I thank you enough?
Be sure and check in with moveon.org so you can share more left winger tidbits like that pearl of wisdom!
Comment: Correct they were calls (expanded to emails, internet usage) to or from U.S. Citizens. Tat's the crux. U.S. Citizens cannot be spied upon with a warrant. The Crime Family and the Telecomms didn't have 'em, and spied anyway...damn a small thing like the law. If the wiretapping was not illegal, then why not let the Courts decide that? Why provide immunity to Corporations who have million dollar legal departments? Did they break the law or not?
Go rub one out to LiLo, like I said, put your head and the monkeys back in your butt and leave the protection of the Constitution to the adults.
Comment: If Bushco has its way, we'll never know if FISA is unconstitutional because they don't want it to go to Court!
The Church Commission created FISA - a bi-partisan commission created in response to that other terrific criminal Richard Nixon. The monkeys have already flown out of your butt. Did you read the information on the Greenwald site? Or just dismiss it as left wing? Figures, if it isn't on the Drudge Report or if Rush doesn't tell you what to think then it has no merit...always remember that is was the 'manly men' of the Bushco Crime Family who were on duty when 9/11 happened....
Comment: Its fun getting you self-righteous lefties all spun up and with your panties in a bunch.
OK genius, if F is for foreign, and the wiretapping took place on international calls (let me explain for you, that means to a foreign country), then what the heck is the problem? These were not calls from the US to the US. they were calls to outside the country. Ipso facto (I honestly don't know what that means but I love the sound of it), the wiretapping was not illegal.
I can't take you anti-American types anymore, I'm going to go do something more useful like look at nudie pics of Lindsey Lohan on the NY Magazine website. She's an all-American hottie - or maybe you'd like to argue that also? Oh, that's right, she's American and therefore inherently evil in your eyes, no?
Comment: I stand corrected, the F in FISA stands for FOREIGN...the I is for intelligence, of which this Administration and others are sorely lacking....
Comment: Yeah, I'll bet you are a veteran, just like I'll bet that our legal scholar here is a former Republican (extreme leftist love to make that claim..."I was blinded by the right wing, but now I see the light, blah, blah, blah). And maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt as well.
And just what "facts" have been quoted? A link to a left-wing web site that gives slanted opinions about FISA? Gee, there's balanced view of the world! FISA itself is a creation of Jimmy Carter (natch) and the democratic congress of the late 70's....could one find a more limp-wristed crowd than that? It's fun to watch you lefties get all twisted around the axle over FISA, which is probably unconstitutional anyway.
Comment: "And maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt as well." jimbo3800
Heh...enough said.
Comment: Hey Genius, the I in FISA stands for International and it requires a warrant. period. They spying law breakers can even get a warrant after they are done spying, to cover their butt. Again if these Companies didn't violate the law, then as you wingnuts are fond of saying, "they have nothing to worry about." The Electronic Frontier Foundation is hardly a for profit enterprise and they are the plaintiff in a number of these suits...they are about protecting the rule of law and even the internet that allows people like us have this thrilling debate....
Somewhere, deep down, you wingnuts are hoping for another attack to justify your characterizations of lefties and dems as 'weak', etc....that would 'prove' your point right? Your ignorance is appalling...criminal court, civil court, at this point any court would be fine....the Bushco family is trying to provide retroactive immunity for ILLEGAL spying. period.
Bushco started this illegal wiretapping in Feb 2001 - and ignored the Bin Laden (remember him?) memo in August...he was busy playing cowboy at his ranch...7 years later, no Bin Laden, 1 trillion pissed away in Iraq, and 4000 brave soldiers dead...It is part and parcel that you are a part of the ignorant sheep crowd that believe that might is right and citizens should not question their Government...put your head back in the sand or better yet grab a rifle and man a post at the border or in Iraq....
Comment: Jimbo, I'm a "lefty" that has put my interests of my country over my own by actually serving my country. 13+ year vet here, and I believe that the administration and telecoms should be accountable and responsible for any crimes they may have committed. Laws are laws, and besides the administration hides behind "executive priviledge" to protect themselves, American conversations should be held to the same standard....
Comment: No trial lawyer has ever defended my right to free speech, Mr. Left-Wing, that was given to me by the founding fathers. Besides, there is no money in it for them so they wouldn't be interested. And nothing in the FISA Act of 1978 prevents wiretapping of international calls. No criminal law has been violated. The issue is that you left-wingers are attempting to move this from a criminal court to a civil court in the interest of lawsuits and money...and you are putting that ahead of the security of the nation.
If and when (and I pray to God its never) there is another terrorist attack that could have been prevented but wasn't because of these types of legal actions, you on the left will have blood on your hands. But I'm sure that in your narrow mind, it will all be 'America's fault', 'George Bush's fault', etc. Its clear that you are part and parcel of the always blame America first crowd.
Comment: I guess jimmy can't stand facts - fear mongering is easier...facts are a stubborn thing as they say...
Comment: Everything you need to know about this FISA mess is here:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
Comment: It is those same trial lawyers who defend your right, jimmy, to spout your gibberish under the first amendment and those same trial lawyers that pumpkinhead Rush turned to when he was caught with too many prescription pills...so again, I ask - did the Telecomm companies break the law when the provided information to Bushco without a warrant? That was the law in place at the time...let the court decide...why should Congress or Bushco decide a legitimate legal question? Isn't that why we have Courts? The relevant law was the FISA act of 1978 that was amended right after 9/11 - but still required a warrant to listen to American citizens, regardless of who they were talking to. What do they have to fear from letting these cases go before a judge? The telecomm immunity provision is one of the sticking points holding up the law...DNI McConnell said it himself on CNN - the immunity and protection of these Corporations is the real issue...the rest of your stuff if fear mongering...How can you be so sure that those were "the only calls that were subjected to wiretapping." I guess you are willing to take the Leaders word for it....after too much lying, I am not willing. Let the Courts decide...
Comment: There are some good protective measures you can take. EveSurf.com
has some great proxies you can set up if you don't want your
surfing and emails monitored by uncle sam.
Comment: Perhaps the brilliant legal scholar 'TSop' can quote for us the law that says that a call between the US and a foreign nation cannot be intercepted, because those are the only calls that were subjected to wiretapping. And such wiretapping is not illegal. How ironic that the same lefties that are always in favor of more lawsuits are hiding behind their lofty concept of civil liberties, etc, etc., ad nauseum. Oh, but that's right, you also want to extend American civil liberties to the potential terrorist on the other end of the phone, to illegals crossing the border, etc. Just once I would like to see the left-wing put the best interests of their country first.
Comment: I'm still wating for someone to actually ANSWER these questions!
Comment: Why is it necessary to listen to the phone calls of "FELLOW AMERICANS" to stop Al-Queda?
What do the phone calls of Americans have to do with fighting foreign arab/muslum terrorists?
Did American citizens have anyting to do with 911? Was a single American citizen flying one of those planes?
Why is it necessary to wire-tap the American population to stop terrorists in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia?
Why is the old FISA law that let the government listen, then go to a judge "after" to explain why the listened to the phone call of a fellow American insufficient?
Why don't they just "wire-tap" foreign terrorists that plan to hurt us and leave the American people alone?
Is everyone asleep?
Comment: yes, Jimbo...protect us from American grandmothers and college students in Missouri...or perhaps you plan something that needs to be listened too?
Your retoric is getting old.
Al Queda is the threat, not American citizens. If you want to protect me, protect me from the Islmo-facists "over-seas" and not Americans, that did nothing. And if you think there's an American involved in anything, get a warrant and go after him/her. You know, good old fashioned police work.
I'm a former "republican" (regan, bush 1) and now a registered "independent." This isn't a partisan issue. If your a freedom loving American, you should care about living in an America, that respects our freedoms.
Comment: This is really simple. The telecomms want immunity from being sued for BREAKING THE LAW. The provided spying information to the U.S. Government without a warrant and God knows what else. If they have legitimate requests from the Bushco Family to spy, then that will be proven in Court. If they broke the law that requires a warrant then they should pay up. The rest of the ditto head lines about people hating their country, etc...blah, blah, are just talking points. Are we a nation of laws? Or can Bushco spy on ANYONE when it pleases...not that difficult....
Comment: No "Slappy", not asleep, just thankful that someone is working to protect us from another attack. What amazes me is that all of you on the left would risk American lives rather than offend either of your two most sacred interest groups - the trial lawyers (who stand to make a windfall) and the MoveOn.org types who likely secretly wish for another attack, since they are basically Anti-American at their core and have convinced themselves that America is evil.
Are you really so clueless that you believe that it is simply a coincidence that no organized attack has occurred since 9/11? Why can't you see that it is exactly these types of operations that thwart the terrorists before they can act?
Comment: Why is it necessary to listen to the phone calls of "FELLOW AMERICANS" to stop Al-Queda?
What do the phone calls of Americans have to do with fighting foreign arab/muslum terrorists?
Did American citizens have anyting to do with 911? Was a single American citizen flying one of those planes?
Why is it necessary to wire-tap the American population to stop terrorists in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia?
Why is the old FISA law that let the government listen, then go to a judge "after" to explain why the listened to the phone call of a fellow American insufficient?
Why don't they just "wire-tap" foreign terrorists that plan to hurt us and leave the American people alone?
Is everyone asleep?
Comment: Why is is necessary to listen to the phone calls of "Americans" to fight Al Queda? Where any American citizens involved in 9-11? Are we "at war" with fellow Americans? Why does the government need to listen to the phone calls of "fellow Americans?" Why was is so hard to follow the pre-911 FISA law that let the government listen (if an emergency), then go to a judge "AFTER" to "explain" why they did what they did?" Is everyone asleep?
Comment: The telecomms having nothing to fear if they are not doing anything illegal and they know it. The idea that Republicans get upset about Mexican immigrants picking lettuce but think it is OK for big campaign contributers like ATT to break any law they want...that says volumes about the folks in charge.
Comment: Subverting civil liberties in the names of "fear" has long been a rallying cry for the paranoid. The truth is that the odds that a muslim terrorist will kill any single American is millions to one. Does that mean we do nothing? Of course not. Terrorism is more a civil matter, than a military code of justice matter. The federal government has an obligation to protect us,but they have a larger obligation to protect our civil liberties. The government should be able to wiretap, with judicial supervision. This is how our democracy works to insure that the government does not overstep it's bounds. When historians look back at the Patriot Act, filled with it's enemy combatant provisions,which in essence denies due process to individuals who are classified as "terrorists", they will note how many people now housed at Gitmo, were not terrorists at all,but simply held for political propaganda purposes. This administartion, with it's corporate cronyism has gotten us closer to fascism than in almost any time in our history. The idea that telecom companies should be shielded from civil suites, if any entity feels it was wiretapped illegally proves the point. Bush has allowed the large corporations to run this country. Their every wish is his desire.Now he invokes more fear to put pressure on legislators to cave in to unconstitutional programs. His biggest fears are that if telecom companies are sued, it will open a can of worms about what the Justice department did to force these companies to cooperate.
Comment: Telecomthis, you neglect to realize the inherent and fundamental difference between an organization/private business monitoring company/employee communications and governmental monitoring of civilian communications- the constitution is designed to protect from governmental interference/restriction of civil rights and liberties, whereas private, "closed" systems are not covered by the constitution. The government is held to a higher standard, a different standard because it has the ability to imprison/detain people whereas private corporations do not. In fact, fascism is defined as a system where corporations essentially collude with the government i.e. national socialism.
Warrantless wiretapping is extremely dangerous not to those who necessarily engage in illegal activity, for uner the patriot act and the "unitary executive" power claimed under the constitution by the bush administration, (lawyers such as Yoo, et al) the president has the sole authority to claim anyone an enemy combatant, even if that person is far from a battlefield. Further, anybody I themselves with political considerations/organizations not in line with the current administration is susceptable to intercepted communications and governmental interference. This is why the Church commission was setup after Watergate revealed the same domestic spying done not on foreign nationals, but private citizens and organizations.
After reading many of these posts I am reminded why I avoid blogs...personally I believe people should pass a civics course before engaging in debate about government. (or voting for the matter).
Comment: Telecomthis, you neglect to realize the inherent and fundamental difference between an organization/private business monitoring company/employee communications and governmental monitoring of civilian communications- the constitution is designed to protect from governmental interference/restriction of civil rights and liberties, whereas private, "closed" systems are not covered by the constitution. The government is held to a higher standard, a different standard because it has the ability to imprison/detain people whereas private corporations do not. In fact, fascism is defined as a system where corporations essentially collude with the government i.e. national socialism.
Warrantless wiretapping is extremely dangerous not to those who necessarily engage in illegal activity, for uner the patriot act and the "unitary executive" power claimed under the constitution by the bush administration, (lawyers such as Yoo, et al) the president has the sole authority to claim anyone an enemy combatant, even if that person is far from a battlefield. Further, anybody I themselves with political considerations/organizations not in line with the current administration is susceptable to intercepted communications and governmental interference. This is why the Church commission was setup after Watergate revealed the same domestic spying done not on foreign nationals, but private citizens and organizations.
After reading many of these posts I am reminded why I avoid blogs...personally I believe people should pass a civics course before engaging in debate about government. (or voting for the matter).
Comment: Telecomthis, you neglect to realize the inherent and fundamental difference between an organization/private business monitoring company/employee communications and governmental monitoring of civilian communications- the constitution is designed to protect from governmental interference/restriction of civil rights and liberties, whereas private, "closed" systems are not covered by the constitution. The government is held to a higher standard, a different standard because it has the ability to imprison/detain people whereas private corporations do not. In fact, fascism is defined as a system where corporations essentially collude with the government i.e. national socialism.
Warrantless wiretapping is extremely dangerous not to those who necessarily engage in illegal activity, for uner the patriot act and the "unitary executive" power claimed under the constitution by the bush administration, (lawyers such as Yoo, et al) the president has the sole authority to claim anyone an enemy combatant, even if that person is far from a battlefield. Further, anybody I themselves with political considerations/organizations not in line with the current administration is susceptable to intercepted communications and governmental interference. This is why the Church commission was setup after Watergate revealed the same domestic spying done not on foreign nationals, but private citizens and organizations.
After reading many of these posts I am reminded why I avoid blogs...personally I believe people should pass a civics course before engaging in debate about government. (or voting for the matter).
Comment: Please, knuckleheads who keep saying "hey go ahead and spy on me, I have nothing to hide". There is unanimous agreement on spying on suspicious individuals. The problem is that Bush wants no oversight over his spying, that serves no one but Bush - which is why he will sacrifice the safety of the nation to get the law.
Comment: All the discussion here amazes me.... I guess everyone on here forgets that any company you work for and use their online system can track/read what you send / receive in an email or phone converstaion. Most companies have stated mandates that use of company property for none-business use is prohibited and as such the employee can be terminated. (i.e. if they catch you going to ebay using their PC over the their network, you can be fired.) So how is that tapping any different... same thing you send an email over the company network, they can read it and you have no recourse. Again isnt that illegal tapping? Geeex, if you are that worried your phone conversations are being tapped I guess you must be doing some type of business that could be construed as illegal? I could care less myself...... if they want to waste that kind of expense and recording media.... let them...... hate talking on the phone anyway. Oh and forgot one thing, your employer can look at the harddrive on that PC if it is company owned anytime they like......
Comment: The one thing that isn't mentioned in all of this is that the ONLY major Telcom company that didn't help with the illegal wire tapping was Qwest, and a few months later the head of Qwest was thrown in jail.
As mentioned below, this country was founded on the RULE OF LAW and the idea that no man is above the law, like the king of England was. That includes the President.
This administration has done nothing but tell us to be scared, they offer nothing but fear and have done nothing to really protect us. They invaded a country that had, by the president's own admission, *nothing* to do with 9/11 and at the same time left the job undone in the country that did have something todo with it.
No,I'm not defending Saddam, but if being a brutal dictator is a reason to have your country invaded then we need to invade Saudi Arabia and Pakistan... and N. Korea and a few dozen other countries. Saudi Arabia hada way more involvement in 9/11 that any other country outside of maybe Afghanistan, but what have we done to them? They have televised Al Qaeda fund raisers, but they're our friends. 15 of the 19 hijakcers came from there, but they're our friends. Osama bin Forgotten came from there, but they're our friends. Pakistan is ruled by a brutal dictator that came to power in a military coup, has nuclear weapons and fosters terrorism, but he's Bush's pal.
Comment: Thank God I moved to Japan where they live by the "RULE OF LAW" and don't have to worry about a lying, illegal, run a muck Executive Branch and a SPINELESS Legeslative Branch! What happened to the America that I was once proud of?
Comment: Thank God I moved to Japan where they live by the "RULE OF LAW" and don't have to worry about a lying, illegal, run a muck Executive Branch and a SPINELESS Legeslative Branch! What happened to the America that I was once proud of?
Comment: Thank God I moved to Japan where they live by the "RULE OF LAW" and don't have to worry about a lying, illegal, run a muck Executive Branch and a SPINELESS Legeslative Branch! What happened to the America that I was once proud of?
Comment: The idea that terrorist are going to follow us to our shores and 9/11 will be repeated if the government cant have its illegal wiretapping program is nothing more than a scare tactic and anyone with a double digit I.Q. would say thats just silly. What this country needs is sovereign borders, secure ports, better immigrant, foreign worker, overseas tourist screening then terrorists may follow us to our shores, but be staring at a FENCE. There I said it. Not an imaginary, super-sophisticated, price-soaring invisible fence, but just a regular old everyday fence. One that is visable and could be fully funded with only a third of what we spend in Iraq in one week. Then station some of our active duty military along with our border patrol. Thats only if you REALLY want to stop the influx of illegals. I would say the wealthy and powerful enjoy seeing this country overrun if for no other reason than to see wages and the standard of living of the common person reduced to a little bit of nothing, and while some of us whine and cry about whats happening to our way of life, Im sure there are also some who laugh and gloat and say "I did that'. If This isnt true, then why 6+ years after 9/11 has nothing been done to secure our borders.
As far as the illegal wiretapping program, I was against that from the onset and Bush should have been impeached by now. Who are they really spying on and what information have they gotten we will never know, because if push comes to pull and that information will mysteriously vanish, just like the White House emails vanished when Rodriquez was being investigated. I think the telecoms should have fought the President from the beginning on this at least until the were shown warrants or had a congressional hearing on the constitutionality of the requests being made. I hope this program is never re-enacted again unless it is done with warrants and cause is shown.
Comment: So the Bush administration asked them to do something that was clearly illegal, and now they don't want to cooperate. Maybe the best way to get the telecoms to cooperate is to stop asking them to do illegal stuff. You reap what you sow.
Comment: Have Bush, McConnell, Mukasey and those US Senators who approve of telecom immunity for illegal wiretapping at the behest of the US Government started wearing adult diapers since the Protect America Act expired a week ago? They must be peeing in their pants every day for a week now. Probably have taken to using pacifiers too (but not in public). They must also have blankies or teddy bears to help them sleep at night..
Comment: Immunity for the telecoms is nothing more than a direct cover up. Why else would they need it? If no laws were broken Bush & Friends would not be pushing harder by trying to scare people again. The White House tactic being used now is nothing more than an extension of the terror alerts Bush & Friends used during the last Presidential race. The people fell for it then. Will Congress fall for it now? Are the Democrats that weak?
If the Democrats give Bush & Friends a free pass again, I think it's time for a 3rd party as the Democrats are now nothing more than Republicans using a different name.
Comment: Yeah Right! Why can't these un-intelligence agencies just get a warrent? Is the paperwork too much trouble?
Comment: America is a great country and people as well but few people are making it worst. For instance my case. I am INDIAN belong to very INTELLECTUAL and good family in INDIA and educated. Invested lots of money in USA but on APRIL 2007 I decided to bring my daughter 8 MONTHS OLD DAUGHTER and wife to USA for business *** pleasure trip and they have refused me to enter in USA coz they thought I will stay back in USA. I have occurred huge loses but no one is ready to listen to me. Where is the JUSTICE IN THE NATION WHO IS KNOWN FOR "STATUE OF LIBERTY"...Now I want US citizen to think for a second. What happend you loose your job, you loose all your money, you loose your family support just becasue one office thought that I am wrong. Please help me to HIGHLIGHT my case I am INNOCENT like those people who are shot AND I NEED JUSTICE. I can be reached on alfredotoni@hotmail.com. I am ready to have a dialogue with any one because my family is innocent.
Comment: 1TT.mobi has some good ways to protect yourself against spying. I tried some of their stuff out. Excellent!
Comment: 1TT.mobi has some good ways to protect yourself against spying. I tried some of their stuff out. Excellent!
Comment: There has to be accountability in a Democracy! Hey, the politicians, the media, the military, and all other civil servants including President and Vice President are supposed to serve the people and their best interests. Well there are only a handful of these people who actually have the interest of the country and the people ahead of their own agendas. (They are the politicians you never hear about or see on TV). How many more scandals, crimes, etc do we need to hear about before we realize that the people together, not divided, have the power to change the future. Our vote! We need to start by rewarding politicians who stand firm on campaign promises. Who show honest hard working hours in their job (enough absentees), fiscal responsibity, keep religion seperate from politics (as part of our constitution) not ties to special interests, previous military experience should be detailed (it's a joke that Bush's records disappeared), who stand up to crorporate interests and big money, etc. No votes for politicians who are tied to special interests, who vote against getting lobbyists out of politics, who are against breaking up the media empires of the few, who rewrite our environmental laws for the sake of enriching a few and on and on........... You know what I'm sick of blogging. I'm sick of reading crap. I'm sick of all the corrupt A holes in office, in our security forces and the media etc. I'm sick of the divisions now rampant in America that have been cleverly created by the few. I'm sick of Liberals who worm their way into office on the backs of hard working people only to sign treaties that take jobs overseas, who think more of their f#$%ing dog than their fellow man. I'm sick of Religious Republicans who use God and the bible to get into office only to truly show themselves as paedophiles, toilet gays, sex fiends, draft dodgers, corporate whores, money launderers, law breakers, etc, etc. I'M SO SICK OF THE BULL@#$%! Democrats and Republican politicians probably read these blogs and laugh their asses off at all of us arguing and bitching. Because when we are doing this crap we aren't out getting organized and that makes every politician happy! This is the last time I'm coming here. There has to be a better way to get us all united and have a country with one goal, even if it has two voices. THERE HAS TO BE.
Comment: The warrantless wiretapping was the largest violation of the 4th amendment in American history. I refuse to give up my freedom just because Bush thinks he needs it to "win the war on terror." What is then won? LIBERTY OR DEATH!
Comment: Media Coup De Ta in the internet age. Getting americans, paranoid about fighting terrorism or will the
cake receipe my mother is sending me get stolen by Nsa? Lost liberties, maybe Al Gore has him in
hislock box, oops I forgot to worship the new Earth God, Gore. Taxation without representation. The real
Tyranny.
Comment: incubus,
thannks for the quote I've been trying to verbalize. I live in New Hampshire and our motto is "Live Free Or Die".
"Power corrupts...Absolute power corrupts absolutely". It all comes down to retaining our liberties as American citizens.
Let me misquote FDR by saying "We have nothing to fear but Terror itself".
Comment: This is bunch of political nonsense.Hello...it's actually President Bush who refuses to pass the FISA bil. If this were so incredibly vital, then Bush would pass it and some provisions would be make to review the telecoms role in the illegal spying. I am not saying that we should sue and try to destroy the telecoms. God knows exactly what kind of pressure was put on them to comply. The problem is oversight. We were founded on the premise that power can be abused. It's not unreasonable (at least to people with a brain) to ask that someone, or some bipartisan group be assigned to oversight to review who exactly is being listened to and what is being done with that information. Watergate was a minor burglary with the most insidious of intentions. And I don't feel comfortable giving the Bush administration-- or any administration for that matter- blanket power to wiretap at will without some checks on possible abuses. Who's to say they aren't tapping political opponents for gain. I mean, this is the group that seems to think that having voting machines with no paper trail is fine and dandy. Enough is enough. We don't have a monarchy in this country and we actually were founded on the notion that perhaps unitary executive power isn't the way to go in the United States. All this other screaming about who's more partriotic simply by who's willing to give blind allegiance and who isn't is complete garbage. Sorry, I guess I am just not into fascism.
Comment: No one is above the law. Not Bush, Cheney Clinton or anyone else. Politics should have nothing to do with it! Our constitution is (dare I say) our bible. Again, The fourth amendment requires a Judge to determine "probable cause for a crime" before issuing a warrant. The FISA court (secret) is allowed to bend the rules in the name of national security. What more do we need?
Comment: Media Coup De Ta in the internet age. Getting americans, paranoid about fighting terrorism or will the
cake receipe my mother is sending me get stolen by Nsa? Lost liberties, maybe Al Gore has him in
hislock box, oops I forgot to worship the new Earth God, Gore. Taxation without representation. The real
Tyranny.
Comment: tleclair No media Coup de ta . He may be able to pardon you for mass idiocy. Maybe their is no hope for
intelligent life psuedo liberal land.
Comment: Ya nixon is alleged to wire tape himself with out permission. Still he opened up detaunte with China, and almost survived a media coup deta.
Comment: Ya nixon is alleged to wire tape himself with out permission. Still he opened up detaunte with China, and almost survived a media coup deta.
Comment: Professor, you raised a great point. If the Bush administration is found guilty of Violating the law can Bush pardon himself for his crimes?
Comment: tleclair
My cake receipe got through the watch list, but key receipe and buzzword was constitution
and it created a harried search for my lost civil liberty, hmmmm their it is the lost liberty, a democrat
president. ugggg their all losers again.
Comment: Dave
google ECHELON and it might clear your fog. The nixon Administration illegally wiretapped John Lennon, Jane Fonda, and antiwar protestors among others, which was the reason for the creation of the fisa court in the first place...seriously, check it out
Comment: Retroactive Immununity....hmmm. Is that comparable to a younger half-sibling refusing accountability for violating "some stranger's" individual rights because their "Big Brother" told them to do it? I'm no lawyer (or politician), but it seems an appropriate term would be "Accessory to the Act". If the Congress doesn't rubber stamp it, the President will Pardon the parties involved. As someone who HAS HAD their family/business phone line tapped, expect complicit indifference from authorities whether they be local, state, or federal regardless of which branch of gov't they may hail from. Ahh, experience.......CU
Comment: Robert
I might be worried about someone getting my brownie recipe though! Oops...watch list again...lol
Comment: Dave,
Your right and most of the people are repeating Cnn and msnbc talking points. JFK was the last democrat that had backbone. The rest of the of them all aspire to European Socialism and appeasement.
Comment: Kier 42 Defending Clintons policy you will quickly will find out is a morally bankrupt arguement. I don't hate the guy, but he was a obvious sleazeball. The talking points of large leftist corporate media outlets allow
you to mimic their arguements, without thinking on your own. Do a google search on Clinton foreign policy.
The one the leftist media is trying to sell you. I'am not worries about someone getting my cake receipe.
Comment: There should be no problem with the government getting a court order, which
protects the telcoms. That is the way it was in the 37 years that I spent in the
telcom business. Many times I refused a tap or trap until the business office
was given a court order. I know of many times I was told to go ahead, that the
business office had received an order, but had not.
Comment: Apparantly you guys are a little foggy on your history. During WWII ,the gov't had the authority, and actually opened mail of U.S. citizens,under questionable circumstances. And did you ever hear of the internment camps where Japanese American citizens were placed? Besides most of these calls that are being monitored are international calls that are merely routed through the U.S., and only those of suspicious nature, where certain key words and phrases are detected. We have the capability to weed these out. And, by the way, Saddam did have the capability to harm us with nerve or bio agents at the very least , by simply handing them over to Muslim extremist groups, it does'nt take much. Never have I seen so many people resisting the efforts of those willing to protect us. Would you get it if we had another 9-ll ? Thankfully we hav'nt had to undergo one, do you suppose it's because we are doing something right? Dave@TN
Comment: Uh Dave, the purported stockpiles of nerve or bio agents where not found after we invaded Iraq. How can Saddam of harmed us by giving bio, or nerve agents he didn't have? Sure he had them before the first gulf war. I do believe 1 sarin laden road side bomb was found after the invasion, manufactured before the first gulf war. But the fact our troops didn't find the purported stock piles means he did not have them and complied with the treaty that ended the first gulf war.
Dave, please explain how invading a sovereign nation with no WMD, minding it's own business, to steel their oil protects us?
Comment: Apparantly you guys are a little foggy on your history. During WWII ,the gov't had the authority, and actually opened mail of U.S. citizens,under questionable circumstances. And did you ever hear of the internment camps where Japanese American citizens were placed? Besides most of these calls that are being monitored are international calls that are merely routed through the U.S., and only those of suspicious nature, where certain key words and phrases are detected. We have the capability to weed these out. And, by the way, Saddam did have the capability to harm us with nerve or bio agents at the very least , by simply handing them over to Muslim extremist groups, it does'nt take much. Never have I seen so many people resisting the efforts of those willing to protect us. Would you get it if we had another 9-ll ? Thankfully we hav'nt had to undergo one, do you suppose it's because we are doing something right? Dave@TN
Comment: Yeah, Dave....prison camps for American CITIZENS of Japanese heritage was such a proud moment in our history. So proud in fact that President Reagen had to issue a formal apology to all those lives who were ruined who did nothing wrong other than look "Jap." I see you've really drunk the Kool Aid. You're the one obviously "foggy" history. Say what you will, but Ben Franklin was a great American patriot whose words still ring true: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to secure a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Comment: From what I'm reading, Republicans keep us safe from terrorists and Democrats want to let them kill us all? Am I missing something here?? Determined terrorists WILL strike again. The first attack on th WTC was in 1993, The next was 2001. It seems to me they have time on their side. Bush and this country have been lucky so far. It seems they think in longer terms than our election cycles. So, be afraid...Bush will protect us?
Buck up people. Illegal wiretapping will not prevent some nut who is determined to kill innocent strangers. If there are legitimate concerns then there are legal paths to be followed. Remember the fourth amemdment requiring warrants for searches. The FISA court has virtually never denied issuing them, even retroactively, so what is the problem? What is the need for immunity for telecom companies (past and future) if they have not broken the law or violated our constitution?Thank God for the few Senators with backbones.
My suggestion is to Google ECHELON and learn more on communication surveillance (also John Poindexter, Reagans nat, security advisor)). This program has been around since the 1940's. The only apparent difference now is that the Bush administration insists on thumbing its nose at the constitutional requirement for warrants, and the telecom lobby is very afraid!!
So I'm thinking I might take my copy of the constitution and use it as a Big Bamboo rolling paper and Smoke it...oops, now i'm on the watch list...
Comment: From what I'm reading, Republicans keep us safe from terrorists and Democrats want to let them kill us all? Am I missing something here?? Determined terrorists WILL strike again. The first attack on th WTC was in 1993, The next was 2001. It seems to me they have time on their side. Bush and this country have been lucky so far. It seems they think in longer terms than our election cycles. So, be afraid...Bush will protect us?
Buck up people. Illegal wiretapping will not prevent some nut who is determined to kill innocent strangers. If there are legitimate concerns then there are legal paths to be followed. Remember the fourth amemdment requiring warrants for searches. The FISA court has virtually never denied issuing them, even retroactively, so what is the problem? What is the need for immunity for telecom companies (past and future) if they have not broken the law or violated our constitution?Thank God for the few Senators with backbones.
My suggestion is to Google ECHELON and learn more on communication surveillance (also John Poindexter, Reagans nat, security advisor)). This program has been around since the 1940's. The only apparent difference now is that the Bush administration insists on thumbing its nose at the constitutional requirement for warrants, and the telecom lobby is very afraid!!
So I'm thinking I might take my copy of the constitution and use it as a Big Bamboo rolling paper and Smoke it...oops, now i'm on the watch list...
Comment: Clinton is magnificent at claiming success for something someone else did. The Philippines caught Randy
Yussef. The Africans embassies, the U.S Cole the refusal to get Bin Laden from Sudan On silver plater, the media loves Bill, but they can't hide his dereliction of duty. But he did kill some terrorist family's in waco and
Ruby Ridge. Clinton's foreign policy was a colossal disaster, plus it hates the military.
Comment: Yeah, I guess Reagen was "derelict" in his duty when the Marines were bombed in Lebanon in 1983 and then pulled a "cut and run." Gee, could you be any more biased? We have American problems, not Republican and Democratic party problems. And I guess you think it was a great idea to cozy up to the Saudis too..who now are flipping us off as we try to borrow more money from China to buy oil. Grow up.
Comment: Well, Robert, Clinton managed to find, arrest, put on trial and throw in prision the people responsible for the first WTC bombing without having to spy on Americans w/o warrants.
Your holding Clinton responsible for the situation we are in is blind ignorance. Clinton tried to kill Osama, tried to capture him and was even ready to invade Afghanastan after the U.S.S. Cole incident, but the CIA could not confirm that it ws Al Qaeda that was responsible for it until AFTER he left office.
Clinton warned the Bush administration that Osama bin Laden was the number one threat facing this country and the Bush administration did nothing. The were warned, and did nothing.
This enemy was nearly defeated, until we invaded Iraq and let them grow in strength again. Now they pose nearly as much of a threat, if not more, than before the WTC bombing. Add on to that the occupation of Iraq is a Al Qaeda recruiter's wet dream. American forces of occupation in the holy land, what more could they ask for?
Comment: this administration time and time again has mislead the america peaple. i fear more from the goverment wihtin . than enemys.yes i know they are there.yet we as a peaple who the bush administration say the enemys are going to be rid of our way of life. something ww1,ww11,the soviet union have not been able to do.fear a rag tag group is able to all they could not. make this a law enfrocement matter and we get our man.not at the expense of our own freedom
Comment: I'am more concerned about marketing companies spying to sell, tracking buying and purchasing. The NSA
can spy on all the towel head, head choppers it wants. Their evil, beyond criminal and they need to be
eradicated like cockroachs. I can't buy the arguement that we are losing freedoms, if we lose the war
we lose all freedoms.
Comment: gcbfred, exactly! If they have a real reason to spy, let them go to a judge and get a warrant. The FISA has only rejected 3 or 4 warrants out of the more than 16,000 that have been requested and if it is time sensitive, they have up to 72 hours to go to the court after spying to tell them what they did and why.
Comment: Kier42 Clinton tried dealing with terrorists as criminals, first WTC BOMBING, Randy Yuseff who had ties
to Iraq, Clinton did nothing, African embassy Bombings, Clinton treated it like a criminal matter, but outside
US, Sudan Offered Bin Laden to U.S. Didn't think it was legal, he got away. The Clintons policy lead us
to a emboldened enemy, that now are nearly defeated. I not worried about some getting my cake receipe.
Comment: The government HAS done something wrong, it has spied on it's citizens w/o warrants! That is a crime.
If they want to spy, there are provisions for them to get a warrant, even after the fact. I want a paper trail, I want accountability and they want none of that. If they have nothing to hide, they why would they want to hide what they are doing?
they are trying to deny us oversight. Add on to that that they can now detain and imprision anybody they want for as long as they want, all they have to do is call them a terrorist and they'll never see the light of day
