Listening In

yes, Jimbo...protect us from American grandmothers and college students in Missouri...or perhaps you plan something that needs to be listened too?

Your retoric is getting old.

Al Queda is the threat, not American citizens. If you want to protect me, protect me from the Islmo-facists "over-seas" and not Americans, that did nothing. And if you think there's an American involved in anything, get a warrant and go after him/her. You know, good old fashioned police work.

I'm a former "republican" (regan, bush 1) and now a registered "independent." This isn't a partisan issue. If your a freedom loving American, you should care about living in an America, that respects our freedoms.

This is really simple. The telecomms want immunity from being sued for BREAKING THE LAW. The provided spying information to the U.S. Government without a warrant and God knows what else. If they have legitimate requests from the Bushco Family to spy, then that will be proven in Court. If they broke the law that requires a warrant then they should pay up. The rest of the ditto head lines about people hating their country, etc...blah, blah, are just talking points. Are we a nation of laws? Or can Bushco spy on ANYONE when it pleases...not that difficult....

No "Slappy", not asleep, just thankful that someone is working to protect us from another attack. What amazes me is that all of you on the left would risk American lives rather than offend either of your two most sacred interest groups - the trial lawyers (who stand to make a windfall) and the MoveOn.org types who likely secretly wish for another attack, since they are basically Anti-American at their core and have convinced themselves that America is evil.
Are you really so clueless that you believe that it is simply a coincidence that no organized attack has occurred since 9/11? Why can't you see that it is exactly these types of operations that thwart the terrorists before they can act?

Why is it necessary to listen to the phone calls of "FELLOW AMERICANS" to stop Al-Queda?

What do the phone calls of Americans have to do with fighting foreign arab/muslum terrorists?

Did American citizens have anyting to do with 911? Was a single American citizen flying one of those planes?

Why is it necessary to wire-tap the American population to stop terrorists in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia?

Why is the old FISA law that let the government listen, then go to a judge "after" to explain why the listened to the phone call of a fellow American insufficient?

Why don't they just "wire-tap" foreign terrorists that plan to hurt us and leave the American people alone?

Is everyone asleep?

The telecomms having nothing to fear if they are not doing anything illegal and they know it. The idea that Republicans get upset about Mexican immigrants picking lettuce but think it is OK for big campaign contributers like ATT to break any law they want...that says volumes about the folks in charge.

Subverting civil liberties in the names of "fear" has long been a rallying cry for the paranoid. The truth is that the odds that a muslim terrorist will kill any single American is millions to one. Does that mean we do nothing? Of course not. Terrorism is more a civil matter, than a military code of justice matter. The federal government has an obligation to protect us,but they have a larger obligation to protect our civil liberties. The government should be able to wiretap, with judicial supervision. This is how our democracy works to insure that the government does not overstep it's bounds. When historians look back at the Patriot Act, filled with it's enemy combatant provisions,which in essence denies due process to individuals who are classified as "terrorists", they will note how many people now housed at Gitmo, were not terrorists at all,but simply held for political propaganda purposes. This administartion, with it's corporate cronyism has gotten us closer to fascism than in almost any time in our history. The idea that telecom companies should be shielded from civil suites, if any entity feels it was wiretapped illegally proves the point. Bush has allowed the large corporations to run this country. Their every wish is his desire.Now he invokes more fear to put pressure on legislators to cave in to unconstitutional programs. His biggest fears are that if telecom companies are sued, it will open a can of worms about what the Justice department did to force these companies to cooperate.

Telecomthis, you neglect to realize the inherent and fundamental difference between an organization/private business monitoring company/employee communications and governmental monitoring of civilian communications- the constitution is designed to protect from governmental interference/restriction of civil rights and liberties, whereas private, "closed" systems are not covered by the constitution. The government is held to a higher standard, a different standard because it has the ability to imprison/detain people whereas private corporations do not. In fact, fascism is defined as a system where corporations essentially collude with the government i.e. national socialism.
Warrantless wiretapping is extremely dangerous not to those who necessarily engage in illegal activity, for uner the patriot act and the "unitary executive" power claimed under the constitution by the bush administration, (lawyers such as Yoo, et al) the president has the sole authority to claim anyone an enemy combatant, even if that person is far from a battlefield. Further, anybody I themselves with political considerations/organizations not in line with the current administration is susceptable to intercepted communications and governmental interference. This is why the Church commission was setup after Watergate revealed the same domestic spying done not on foreign nationals, but private citizens and organizations.

After reading many of these posts I am reminded why I avoid blogs...personally I believe people should pass a civics course before engaging in debate about government. (or voting for the matter).

Telecomthis, you neglect to realize the inherent and fundamental difference between an organization/private business monitoring company/employee communications and governmental monitoring of civilian communications- the constitution is designed to protect from governmental interference/restriction of civil rights and liberties, whereas private, "closed" systems are not covered by the constitution. The government is held to a higher standard, a different standard because it has the ability to imprison/detain people whereas private corporations do not. In fact, fascism is defined as a system where corporations essentially collude with the government i.e. national socialism.
Warrantless wiretapping is extremely dangerous not to those who necessarily engage in illegal activity, for uner the patriot act and the "unitary executive" power claimed under the constitution by the bush administration, (lawyers such as Yoo, et al) the president has the sole authority to claim anyone an enemy combatant, even if that person is far from a battlefield. Further, anybody I themselves with political considerations/organizations not in line with the current administration is susceptable to intercepted communications and governmental interference. This is why the Church commission was setup after Watergate revealed the same domestic spying done not on foreign nationals, but private citizens and organizations.

After reading many of these posts I am reminded why I avoid blogs...personally I believe people should pass a civics course before engaging in debate about government. (or voting for the matter).

Telecomthis, you neglect to realize the inherent and fundamental difference between an organization/private business monitoring company/employee communications and governmental monitoring of civilian communications- the constitution is designed to protect from governmental interference/restriction of civil rights and liberties, whereas private, "closed" systems are not covered by the constitution. The government is held to a higher standard, a different standard because it has the ability to imprison/detain people whereas private corporations do not. In fact, fascism is defined as a system where corporations essentially collude with the government i.e. national socialism.
Warrantless wiretapping is extremely dangerous not to those who necessarily engage in illegal activity, for uner the patriot act and the "unitary executive" power claimed under the constitution by the bush administration, (lawyers such as Yoo, et al) the president has the sole authority to claim anyone an enemy combatant, even if that person is far from a battlefield. Further, anybody I themselves with political considerations/organizations not in line with the current administration is susceptable to intercepted communications and governmental interference. This is why the Church commission was setup after Watergate revealed the same domestic spying done not on foreign nationals, but private citizens and organizations.

After reading many of these posts I am reminded why I avoid blogs...personally I believe people should pass a civics course before engaging in debate about government. (or voting for the matter).

Please, knuckleheads who keep saying "hey go ahead and spy on me, I have nothing to hide". There is unanimous agreement on spying on suspicious individuals. The problem is that Bush wants no oversight over his spying, that serves no one but Bush - which is why he will sacrifice the safety of the nation to get the law.

All the discussion here amazes me.... I guess everyone on here forgets that any company you work for and use their online system can track/read what you send / receive in an email or phone converstaion. Most companies have stated mandates that use of company property for none-business use is prohibited and as such the employee can be terminated. (i.e. if they catch you going to ebay using their PC over the their network, you can be fired.) So how is that tapping any different... same thing you send an email over the company network, they can read it and you have no recourse. Again isnt that illegal tapping? Geeex, if you are that worried your phone conversations are being tapped I guess you must be doing some type of business that could be construed as illegal? I could care less myself...... if they want to waste that kind of expense and recording media.... let them...... hate talking on the phone anyway. Oh and forgot one thing, your employer can look at the harddrive on that PC if it is company owned anytime they like......

The one thing that isn't mentioned in all of this is that the ONLY major Telcom company that didn't help with the illegal wire tapping was Qwest, and a few months later the head of Qwest was thrown in jail.

As mentioned below, this country was founded on the RULE OF LAW and the idea that no man is above the law, like the king of England was. That includes the President.

This administration has done nothing but tell us to be scared, they offer nothing but fear and have done nothing to really protect us. They invaded a country that had, by the president's own admission, *nothing* to do with 9/11 and at the same time left the job undone in the country that did have something todo with it.

No,I'm not defending Saddam, but if being a brutal dictator is a reason to have your country invaded then we need to invade Saudi Arabia and Pakistan... and N. Korea and a few dozen other countries. Saudi Arabia hada way more involvement in 9/11 that any other country outside of maybe Afghanistan, but what have we done to them? They have televised Al Qaeda fund raisers, but they're our friends. 15 of the 19 hijakcers came from there, but they're our friends. Osama bin Forgotten came from there, but they're our friends. Pakistan is ruled by a brutal dictator that came to power in a military coup, has nuclear weapons and fosters terrorism, but he's Bush's pal.

Thank God I moved to Japan where they live by the "RULE OF LAW" and don't have to worry about a lying, illegal, run a muck Executive Branch and a SPINELESS Legeslative Branch! What happened to the America that I was once proud of?

Thank God I moved to Japan where they live by the "RULE OF LAW" and don't have to worry about a lying, illegal, run a muck Executive Branch and a SPINELESS Legeslative Branch! What happened to the America that I was once proud of?

Thank God I moved to Japan where they live by the "RULE OF LAW" and don't have to worry about a lying, illegal, run a muck Executive Branch and a SPINELESS Legeslative Branch! What happened to the America that I was once proud of?

The idea that terrorist are going to follow us to our shores and 9/11 will be repeated if the government cant have its illegal wiretapping program is nothing more than a scare tactic and anyone with a double digit I.Q. would say thats just silly. What this country needs is sovereign borders, secure ports, better immigrant, foreign worker, overseas tourist screening then terrorists may follow us to our shores, but be staring at a FENCE. There I said it. Not an imaginary, super-sophisticated, price-soaring invisible fence, but just a regular old everyday fence. One that is visable and could be fully funded with only a third of what we spend in Iraq in one week. Then station some of our active duty military along with our border patrol. Thats only if you REALLY want to stop the influx of illegals. I would say the wealthy and powerful enjoy seeing this country overrun if for no other reason than to see wages and the standard of living of the common person reduced to a little bit of nothing, and while some of us whine and cry about whats happening to our way of life, Im sure there are also some who laugh and gloat and say "I did that'. If This isnt true, then why 6+ years after 9/11 has nothing been done to secure our borders.
As far as the illegal wiretapping program, I was against that from the onset and Bush should have been impeached by now. Who are they really spying on and what information have they gotten we will never know, because if push comes to pull and that information will mysteriously vanish, just like the White House emails vanished when Rodriquez was being investigated. I think the telecoms should have fought the President from the beginning on this at least until the were shown warrants or had a congressional hearing on the constitutionality of the requests being made. I hope this program is never re-enacted again unless it is done with warrants and cause is shown.

So the Bush administration asked them to do something that was clearly illegal, and now they don't want to cooperate. Maybe the best way to get the telecoms to cooperate is to stop asking them to do illegal stuff. You reap what you sow.

Have Bush, McConnell, Mukasey and those US Senators who approve of telecom immunity for illegal wiretapping at the behest of the US Government started wearing adult diapers since the Protect America Act expired a week ago? They must be peeing in their pants every day for a week now. Probably have taken to using pacifiers too (but not in public). They must also have blankies or teddy bears to help them sleep at night..