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How the South Won (This) Civil War

Southernism is taking over our national dialogue. Maybe it's time for the North to secede from the Union.

By Michael Hirsh | Newsweek Web Exclusive
Apr 25, 2008 | Updated: 5:10  p.m. ET Apr 25, 2008

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  • Posted By: cethsouth @ 05/02/2008 10:24:11 AM

    Comment: Another elitist easterner lamenting an old southern stereotype. I'm a Tennessean and spend a great deal of time in New York, especially Long Island. Since Mr. Hirsh obviously took a great deal of time and care writing about southern stereotypes, I'd like to spend a small amount of time describing actual observations from the "enlightened" northeast. Almost everytime I'd venture out into local businesses, invariably there would be a patron being rude, and sometimes, downright abusive, to the clerk or even another patron. The arguments that ensued were filled with four letter words and were loud, uncivilized, ridiculous, and embarrassing. The impatient patron would then get into their Mercedes and finally go. I've lived in Tennessee all my life and have not had to endure such a spectacle in public at any time. Our values and upbringing do not generally permit rudeness, being impolite, disrespectful, boasting, or making a public spectacle of yourself. My southern values do not repect any person that is pretentious and unsubstantial while persuming to pass judgement - especially when that indiviual stereotypes us all. I submit, with all due respect to Mr. Hirsh, that it is the cities that have devolved into a culturally decadent and uncivil tone. To stand there and pretend to be sophisticated when you can't even maintain civil discourse illustrates the point. This article does a disservice to the fair people who live in rual or suburban setttings. All southerners know that northeasterners repeatedly mistake pretense for substance, and polish for intelligence. Being ill-mannered, impolite, selfish and disrespectful seems to be the norm in northeastern culture. How did their culture develop in this way? Maybe Mr. Hirsh can analyze this degeneration and "enlighten" himself and his neighbors to take a look in the mirror before presuming to assess a culture that he knows far less about.

  • Posted By: garren_bagley@yahoo.com @ 05/01/2008 1:56:53 PM

    Comment: Pretentious prig.

  • Posted By: garren_bagley@yahoo.com @ 05/01/2008 1:54:46 PM

    Comment: What a pretentious prig.

  • Posted By: sarahray87 @ 04/30/2008 10:17:26 PM

    Comment: I am startled that the South is somehow referred to in this article as the only place in the U.S. where closemindedness reigns. I am from Tennessee, attend college in Louisiana, and adore the south. I am also a fervent Obama supporter and a very far-left liberal. Every region of the country has its baggage - the south happened to have aired its dirty laundry in front of the whole nation by defending slavery in a war and supporting Jim Crow for a century. This does not mean that Northern elitist liberals are somehow angelic in comparison. Are northern cities free of racism? Of regional segregation? Do women, and blacks, and immigrants and the poor somehow lead better lives in WASP-filled neighborhoods? Rather the reverse. From my experience, there is a dialogue in which all southerners are forced to paiticpate daily about race, class and inequality because of its history, whereas these same issues are seldom addressed openly or often in the Northeast. I fail to see the NE as a haven of good judgment, fairness or great ideas. This article is confusing in its logic and is quite offensive. I usually love Newsweek but I am quite perplexed about the point that is being made. Intolerance and the south are not synonyms; hatred is not a plague only for those below the Mason Dixon line.

  • Posted By: Army4RangeR @ 04/30/2008 3:11:41 PM

    Comment: YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT IGNORANT NORTHERN PEOPLE....WELL, LET'S SEE, IT TOOK OBAMA 20 YEARS OF SETTING IN A PEW, WITH WRIGHT, IN THE PULPIT, ESPOUSING HATRED OF EVERYHTING GOOD AND DESCENT IN OUR COUNTRY..IT'S CALLED ANARCHY....BUT IT WENT RIGHT OVER OBAMA'S HEAD??? OBAMA WAS USING THE CHURCH AND THE AGENDA TO GAIN THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE BLACK VOTERS TO ATTAIN HIS POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS...AND NOW...IT'S BLOWN UP IN HIS FACE....
    WOW, I'LL BE OBAMA WISHED HE WOULD HAVE CHOSEN TO EMBRACE HIS WHATE GRANNY AND THROWN HIS PASTOR UNDER THE BUS..WRIGHT IS MATERIAL FOR INSTUTIONALIZING.....HE IS DEFINITELY A FEW BEERS SHORT OF A SIX PACK....SO, THE QUESTION IS...WHO DUMBER...WRIGHT OR OBAMA??? GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

  • Posted By: blapearce@gmail.com @ 04/30/2008 12:45:37 PM

    Comment: I'm disappointed by this story and by some of the comments on this board. I'm a Texan with a pure Scotch-Irish family line coming from North Carolina and Arkansas. My family tree is filled with slave-owning confederate gentleman farmers, but I am a secular liberal democrat . I love southern and southwest culture and history and think that the South has been a hugely important contributor to the melting-pot that is America. Ignorance, religious intolerance and the many problems with our corrupt and declining political system are a national problem, not a regional one. Pointing fingers at the South or the North and talking about succession is ridiculous and unproductive. This country is great because all of it's different regions, cultures, religions and races have, in the past, been able to put their differences aside and find common ground. That's what we should be working toward.

  • Posted By: 1975 @ 04/30/2008 11:04:19 AM

    Comment: While I agree the US has coarsened, assigning fault to the south seems an oversimplification. Maybe I'm not old enough to know, but during my lifetime (born in the 70s), there has never been a shortage in the Northeast of those whose political and social impulses arise from the lowest common denominator. On the flip side, I know lots of sophisticated, genteel native southerners. The geography argument obscures what I see as the real problem: a disregard--and disrespect--in some corners for the things that have driven this country's success, like education, technological innovation, and social and economic freedom. Leaving out these key and, it must be said, apolitical, ingredients holds the potential for disaster.

  • Posted By: whatever27 @ 04/30/2008 2:19:49 AM

    Comment: The reason northeastern liberals are communitarians and supposedly more "cerebral" than the rest of the people in the country is because they need to harness their huge intellects to talk self-sufficient producers into underwriting their colossal hallmarks to socialist failure - from Albany to New Orleans to Los Angeles. Their secret reason for socialist revolution? Proletariat scrubs on bottom, elitist intellectuals on top.

  • Posted By: whatever27 @ 04/30/2008 2:19:42 AM

    Comment: The reason northeastern liberals are communitarians and supposedly more "cerebral" than the rest of the people in the country is because they need to harness their huge intellects to talk self-sufficient producers into underwriting their colossal hallmarks to socialist failure - from Albany to New Orleans to Los Angeles. Their secret reason for socialist revolution? Proletariat scrubs on bottom, elitist intellectuals on top.

  • Posted By: whatever27 @ 04/30/2008 2:19:34 AM

    Comment: The reason northeastern liberals are communitarians and supposedly more "cerebral" than the rest of the people in the country is because they need to harness their huge intellects to talk self-sufficient producers into underwriting their colossal hallmarks to socialist failure - from Albany to New Orleans to Los Angeles. Their secret reason for socialist revolution? Proletariat scrubs on bottom, elitist intellectuals on top.

  • Posted By: whatever27 @ 04/30/2008 2:19:23 AM

    Comment: The reason northeastern liberals are communitarians and supposedly more "cerebral" than the rest of the people in the country is because they need to harness their huge intellects to talk self-sufficient producers into underwriting their colossal hallmarks to socialist failure - from Albany to New Orleans to Los Angeles. Their secret reason for socialist revolution? Proletariat scrubs on bottom, elitist intellectuals on top.


  • Posted By: whatever27 @ 04/30/2008 2:18:30 AM

    Comment: The reason northeastern liberals are communitarians and supposedly more "cerebral" than the rest of the people in the country is because they need to harness their huge intellects to talk self-sufficient producers into underwriting their colossal hallmarks to socialist failure - from Albany to New Orleans to Los Angeles. Their secret reason for socialist revolution? Proletariat scrubs on bottom, elitist intellectuals on top.


  • Posted By: may20th1861 @ 04/29/2008 4:08:47 PM

    Comment: This is a museum-quality example of yankee arrogance, ignorance, and intolerance. It does, however, illustrate an important point: the divide between Northern/Puritan self righteous hypocracy and Southron/Celtic pride has not been so great since 1860. This time why not just agree to go our seperate ways and live in peace? I guarantee that if the North wants to seceed, there will not be a single Southron voice raised in protest.

  • Posted By: surr701 @ 04/29/2008 2:10:43 PM

    Comment: Moderator, Please remove duplicated posts. Your site kept notifying me to post again later since the post could not be accepted at the present time. Evidently the posts were being accepted contrary to the notices.

  • Posted By: surr701 @ 04/29/2008 2:05:46 PM

    Comment: Personally, I don't know any southerners who think it is necessary to wear a flag lapel pin in order to be elected President of the U.S. Where are you gettin your information? Obviously, it is not from first hand knowledge.

    vtcallan, your comment reminds me of magazine article written prior to the Superbowl in Jacksonville, FL. The author described Jacksonville as smelling bad due to the paper mills in the area. People who have first hand knowledge of Jacksonville know that there has not been a paper or pulp mill there in about 30 years. It has been a long time since there was a foul odor hanging around there. Get your FACTS straight.

  • Posted By: surr701 @ 04/29/2008 2:01:07 PM

    Comment: Personally, I don't know any southerners who think it is necessary to wear a flag lapel pin in order to be elected President of the U.S. Where are you gettin your information? Obviously, it is not from first hand knowledge.

    vtcallan, your comment reminds me of magazine article written prior to the Superbowl in Jacksonville, FL. The author described Jacksonville as smelling bad due to the paper mills in the area. People who have first hand knowledge of Jacksonville know that there has not been a paper or pulp mill there in about 30 years. It has been a long time since there was a foul odor hanging around there. Get your FACTS straight.

  • Posted By: surr701 @ 04/29/2008 2:01:00 PM

    Comment: Personally, I don't know any southerners who think it is necessary to wear a flag lapel pin in order to be elected President of the U.S. Where are you gettin your information? Obviously, it is not from first hand knowledge.

    vtcallan, your comment reminds me of magazine article written prior to the Superbowl in Jacksonville, FL. The author described Jacksonville as smelling bad due to the paper mills in the area. People who have first hand knowledge of Jacksonville know that there has not been a paper or pulp mill there in about 30 years. It has been a long time since there was a foul odor hanging around there. Get your FACTS straight.

  • Posted By: surr701 @ 04/29/2008 2:00:24 PM

    Comment: Personally, I don't know any southerners who think it is necessary to wear a flag lapel pin in order to be elected President of the U.S. Where are you gettin your information? Obviously, it is not from first hand knowledge.

    vtcallan, your comment reminds me of magazine article written prior to the Superbowl in Jacksonville, FL. The author described Jacksonville as smelling bad due to the paper mills in the area. People who have first hand knowledge of Jacksonville know that there has not been a paper or pulp mill there in about 30 years. It has been a long time since there was a foul odor hanging around there. Get your FACTS straight.

  • Posted By: surr701 @ 04/29/2008 2:00:06 PM

    Comment: Personally, I don't know any southerners who think it is necessary to wear a flag lapel pin in order to be elected President of the U.S. Where are you gettin your information? Obviously, it is not from first hand knowledge.

    vtcallan, your comment reminds me of magazine article written prior to the Superbowl in Jacksonville, FL. The author described Jacksonville as smelling bad due to the paper mills in the area. People who have first hand knowledge of Jacksonville know that there has not been a paper or pulp mill there in about 30 years. It has been a long time since there was a foul odor hanging around there. Get your FACTS straight.

  • Posted By: surr701 @ 04/29/2008 1:59:56 PM

    Comment: Personally, I don't know any southerners who think it is necessary to wear a flag lapel pin in order to be elected President of the U.S. Where are you gettin your information? Obviously, it is not from first hand knowledge.

    vtcallan, your comment reminds me of magazine article written prior to the Superbowl in Jacksonville, FL. The author described Jacksonville as smelling bad due to the paper mills in the area. People who have first hand knowledge of Jacksonville know that there has not been a paper or pulp mill there in about 30 years. It has been a long time since there was a foul odor hanging around there. Get your FACTS straight.

  • Posted By: surr701 @ 04/29/2008 11:45:42 AM

    Comment: You obviously don't understand southern history or culture. Perhaps if your area of the country had been on the receiving end of "Reconstruction", you might look a little "yahooish" at times. too. Northerners sometimes look mannerless and arrogant to me.

    Check your facts on the origins of southerners. Sure there were many Scotttish imigrants to the southern frontiers, but why do you think so many southern colloquialisms are English, not Scottish?

  • Posted By: jaydiamond @ 04/29/2008 3:45:15 AM

    Comment: http://www.***.com/

  • Posted By: Army4RangeR @ 04/28/2008 9:21:13 PM

    Comment: If I were Wright, I'd have the assault weapons of the nation of islam and louis farrakhan covering my butt too, but they are no real threat to THE PEOPLE...

    • Posted By: HolyRoller @ 04/29/2008 00:58:11

      Comment: God Bless America!!! And HE HAS!!!

      NOBAMA!!!

  • Posted By: Army4RangeR @ 04/28/2008 9:19:32 PM

    Comment: THE BIGGEST STATEMENT ALL AMERICANS CAN AND SHOULD MAKE TO THE HONORABLE(??????) REV. WRONG, IS TO BOYCOTT HIS BOOK....HE'S MOVING INTO A STRICTLY WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD, A MERE 10,000 SQ. FT.....WHY WOULD ANY WHO HATES WHITES SO BADLY WANT TO BE SURROUNDED BY WHITES, AND NO IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF THOSE HE REPRESENTS AND HAS SPENT HIS LIFE BRAINWASHING???? WRIGHT IS WACKY....

  • Posted By: powin @ 04/28/2008 12:34:27 PM

    Comment: Reverend Wright embedded threads of truth in a canvass of falsehoods: at one moment he states outright that he is not divisive or polarizing then he launches into thunderous, irreverent gestures and harsh critique of classical music, opera, psychiatry, pharmacology, JFK's and Ted Kennedy's Irish-American accents, and rationalizes this by making his thesis an imaginary cognitive difference between blacks and whites that elucidate his tangential truisms.

    He speaks of embracing Change and transformation to that of respect and kindness while being irreverent of the late JFK, Lyndon Johnson and the above-mentioned; he speaks conceptually of embracing difference while he treads the threshold of a bitter diatribe of Eurocentrist thought, music, language and worship.

    How does he do so? Leaping from left and right brain hemispheres to oral traditions of Hebrew teachings, he feigns authority and makes bold statements from non-existent sources adding new fields of knowledge as he thunders on.

    Demarcating himself as a preacher not a politician or political analyst, he exclaims that his speech is not about the candidacies of Senators McCain, Clinton and Obama. Jeremiah Wright continuously makes an affirmation of a positive, inevitable Change to come; not coincidentally, he finally brings his speech of Change to a climax of Yes We Can make this Change as an obvious endorsement of Senator Obama and then he humbly makes a plug for his book which is to emerge sometime in 2008 (in case anyone missed any of his many points).

    Despite separating himself (as a pastor) from politicians, this morning, Rev. Wright, expressed an interest in running for Vice President with Senator Obama. I think that would be an interesting ticket.

  • Posted By: powin @ 04/28/2008 12:34:19 PM

    Comment: Reverend Wright embedded threads of truth in a canvass of falsehoods: at one moment he states outright that he is not divisive or polarizing then he launches into thunderous, irreverent gestures and harsh critique of classical music, opera, psychiatry, pharmacology, JFK's and Ted Kennedy's Irish-American accents, and rationalizes this by making his thesis an imaginary cognitive difference between blacks and whites that elucidate his tangential truisms.

    He speaks of embracing Change and transformation to that of respect and kindness while being irreverent of the late JFK, Lyndon Johnson and the above-mentioned; he speaks conceptually of embracing difference while he treads the threshold of a bitter diatribe of Eurocentrist thought, music, language and worship.

    How does he do so? Leaping from left and right brain hemispheres to oral traditions of Hebrew teachings, he feigns authority and makes bold statements from non-existent sources adding new fields of knowledge as he thunders on.

    Demarcating himself as a preacher not a politician or political analyst, he exclaims that his speech is not about the candidacies of Senators McCain, Clinton and Obama. Jeremiah Wright continuously makes an affirmation of a positive, inevitable Change to come; not coincidentally, he finally brings his speech of Change to a climax of Yes We Can make this Change as an obvious endorsement of Senator Obama and then he humbly makes a plug for his book which is to emerge sometime in 2008 (in case anyone missed any of his many points).

    Despite separating himself (as a pastor) from politicians, this morning, Rev. Wright, expressed an interest in running for Vice President with Senator Obama. I think that would be an interesting ticket.

  • Posted By: misterharban @ 04/28/2008 12:17:29 PM

    Comment: Based on Mr. Hirsch's take here I guess the only thing that could possibly trump southern ignorance is northern bigotry and intolerance. Certainly a reversal from the circumstances that preceded the last Civil war. (If you want to understand the foundations of northern ignorance prior the the Civil War, read McCullough's 1776)

  • Posted By: Harry B @ 04/28/2008 9:36:59 AM

    Comment: I'm amused at his take on the Idol songer. I thought no one had the talent to sing a JCS song, let alone the vocal strength. I knew if they did, it would probably be "I Don't Know How To Love Him", but was pleasantly surprised by her choice. The thought of religion never entered my mind. I recall the nuns going in to NYC to protest the show, but that didn't stop anyone from listening to the music.
    The only biased and prejudiced view I see here is the author's narrow-minded, intolerant take.
    Wilson, FDR, JFK - all the same; Obama wants to take up their socialist, collectivist causes.

  • Posted By: Clint Johnson @ 04/28/2008 8:43:50 AM

    Comment: The author - a typical "I'm so much smarter than you and much much better than you Yankee" tells us that that we Southerners were responsible for "a substantial portion of the new nation developed, over many generations, a rather savage, unsophisticated set of mores. Traditionally, it has been balanced by a more diplomatic, communitarian Yankee sensibility from the Northeast and upper Midwest. But that latter sensibility has been losing ground in population numbers--and cultural weight. "



    Hmmm...

  • Posted By: austria2 @ 04/28/2008 7:22:44 AM

    Comment: Are you serious, Mr. Hirsh. Well, let us play along. Who will pay the $9 trillion debt? 50-50? If China and others demand payments of their loans to us, which states will be surrendered? They Like Texas and Alaska for their oil. Well, we better learn now their languages to be their nannies, gardeners and drivers.

    • Posted By: HolyRoller @ 04/29/2008 01:01:17

      Comment: Hey this is America. Well just print that up in just a few hours. We got it all, in the U.S.A. dude. No commies allowed.

      NOBAMA

  • Posted By: austria2 @ 04/28/2008 7:22:07 AM

    Comment: Are you serious, Mr. Hirsh. Well, let us play along. Who will pay the $9 trillion debt? 50-50? If China and others demand payments of their loans to us, which states will be surrendered? They Like Texas and Alaska for their oil. Well, we better learn now their languages to be their nannies, gardeners and drivers.

  • Posted By: austria2 @ 04/28/2008 7:15:27 AM

    Comment: Who will pay the $9 trillion debt? The South or North? Right now, we are bankrupt. Divide it, which states we will we give to China and others to pay our debts? We better learn their languages now to be their nannies, gardeners and drivers.

  • Posted By: HenryHenry @ 04/28/2008 4:01:21 AM

    Comment: You're all a bunch of idiots, especially Michael Hirsh, the author of this garbage. The civil war has long been over and idiots from the north act as if the south is ignorant. They seem to think that beverly hillbillies is a documentary, and everyone in the bible belt is a religious nut. The truth is there are just as many educated people in the south as in the north. And there are just as many religious people in the north as in the south.

    • Posted By: vtcallan @ 04/29/2008 13:27:02

      Comment: You won't find many in the North that will insist that someone wear a flag-lapel pin in order to be POTUS.

  • Posted By: Darwin5223 @ 04/28/2008 2:34:02 AM

    Comment: I've been saying that the North should secede for a very long time! Let the south have their God, guns, self-inflicted coronaries (from all the fried food they eat). Let them teach "intelligent design" in their classrooms and open each day with prayer. Let them implement segregation, ban pornography and sex toys (I believe that includes personal lubricants), ban abortions even in the case of rape and incest, and NOT benefit from stem cell research, and...well, you get the picture. Yes, let them go back to the 1800's and let the rest of us continue to live in the year 2008. Oh, wait. Even back in the 1800's it was considered bad form to attack a politician based on his personal religious beliefs. This notion of making candidates wear their faith on their sleeve is purely modern, and purely a shameful form of blackmail where votes are threatened to be withheld if a candidate doesn't openly declare their allegiance to God. I was under the impression that part of personal freedom, words that conservatives apparently only pay lip service to, also means that you're free to NOT be religious. The founding fathers made it perfectly clear that religion was NEVER to be used as a litmus test for holding political office. So really, conservatives are completely misrepresenting the meaning of the Constitution. Maybe if they paid more attention in school they would know that.

    • Posted By: vtcallan @ 04/29/2008 13:28:10

      Comment: You are so right Darwin!

  • Posted By: Army4RangeR @ 04/28/2008 12:52:24 AM

    Comment: I think that it would be a fair deal to allow the uneducated southerns the right to realign with the beliefs of Robert E. Lee...The North who so adamently fought for the freedom of blacks...Let's make a deal,,,we'll send you all of your blacks who are so grateful for your love of their race, in return we will take every Mexican you can round up....I'd much rather live neighbor to a Mexican than a black...Mexican have a devotion to their families, work like dogs to provide for their family and extended families...It is not unusual for these people to hold two or three jobs...while the black community are still waiting for your loyalty to pay for reparation..
    SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT WIN FOR THE SOUTH..

    • Posted By: HolyRoller @ 04/28/2008 01:22:42

      Comment: Hey Ranger-your proposition to our Northern friends with Southern Envy, makes me think you may have listened to The Most High Imam J.Wright's inspirational diatribe tonight.

      Can't go along with your trade. I'd lose to many friends and already got all the illegals we can stand. I live in a poultry producing area of Ga. More Mexicans here than in Tijuana. But that's another discussion.

      Anyway, if you haven't listened to it, I'm sure you'll find it quite entertaining. I said months ago, a Hussein victory would cost Imam Wright business. He has made millions and millions convincing black men that a brother could not get ahead in AmeriKKKa ..Black man as President would blow holes in that money machine. He would prefer a few riots and National Guard confrontations. Then he could really rake in some $$$. Too bad for him though. He is well on his way to completely being marginalized, by blacks that are embarrassed by his filth. Maybe actually his "wisdom" will put a spotlight on why we still have so many race issues, and force hard questions on us all. The problems are fueled by him and his kind. Children of the father of all lies. Allah himself.

      NOBAMA!!!

  • Posted By: Saiga39 @ 04/27/2008 10:39:12 PM

    Comment: As far as I'm concerned, you Northern states can all go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
    We'll even give you Washington, DC. You can have it!

  • Posted By: Saiga39 @ 04/27/2008 10:37:04 PM

    Comment: The author is clueless? Has he ever spent any time in the South??

    As a transplant from New England now living in a Southern state, I was shocked to find liberal Democrats. I thought they didn't exist down here. But they are here trying to screw things up just like they do up North.

  • Posted By: Saiga39 @ 04/27/2008 10:36:55 PM

    Comment: The author is clueless? Has he ever spent any time in the South??

    As a transplant from New England now living in a Southern state, I was shocked to find liberal Democrats. I thought they didn't exist down here. But they are here trying to screw things up just like they do up North.

  • Posted By: Saiga39 @ 04/27/2008 10:32:18 PM

    Comment: The author is clueless? Has he ever spent any time in the South??

    As a transplant from New England now living in a Southern state, I was shocked to find liberal Democrats. I thought they didn't exist down here. But they are here trying to screw things up just like they do up North.

  • Posted By: Cascadian @ 04/27/2008 9:55:02 PM

    Comment: Could be worse:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lEx-XADpb8

  • Posted By: mackymick @ 04/27/2008 9:17:20 PM

    Comment: You are one slick city boy. Boy do you talk real good too. Its so sad these free thinkin thoughts got nowheres to goes no more. Intoleration takes and hides all of us. But .... one thing good bout this race: We got that old time minister, who I like a lot, leadin the charge. Unfraid. A true patriot I think. Speakin high on his race. Bringin down God's damnation on the wicked. And he's really pushin his good old boy way up-ward to the top. The boy learned real good. Anyway, you ever meet Mr. Ayers? I wanna talk to him real bad. Cause I so wanna bomb your office. And re-tolerate you on love of anarchy. I dont think people anymore really appreciate the beauty of it. And what we're missin from it. We aint bombed nearly enough.


  • Posted By: md20/20 @ 04/27/2008 9:15:12 PM

    Comment: Michael, is it possible that the American Idol singer just sucked more than the rest of them? Or can we ignore that and hew to your polemic? Maybe it's not a north/south issue after all.

  • Posted By: md20/20 @ 04/27/2008 9:15:01 PM

    Comment: Michael, is it possible that the American Idol singer just sucked more than the rest of them? Or can we ignore that and hew to your polemic? Maybe it's not a north/south issue after all.

  • Posted By: md20/20 @ 04/27/2008 9:14:22 PM

    Comment: Michael, is it possible that the American Idol singer just sucked more than the rest of them? Or can we ignore that and hew to your polemic? Maybe it's not a north/south issue after all.

  • Posted By: Pia1981 @ 04/27/2008 8:29:49 PM

    Comment: Hi Holy, have you seen Alvy and glimps?

  • Posted By: HolyRoller @ 04/27/2008 7:20:21 PM

    Comment: Posted elsewhere, but here is an example of a GREAT NOTHERN CITY...Damn Yankees

    Just watching the evening news. Sen Obama likes to talk about the violence and loss of life in Iraq. What about HIS HOME TOWN??? This week in Chicago...47 shootings and stabbings. Dailey say's city has become a war zone. What's the answer Senator??? Maybe you can sit down and negotiate with the gangs. Talk some sense into them. Show us your messiahship in action.

    And you obamamohammeds think he's so special. Well start with your own house. SHOW US ALL SEN HUSSEIN. He voted AGAINST stronger penalties for gang related violence. Crook, Fraud AND Hypocrite.

    NOBAMA!!!

    • Posted By: Pia1981 @ 04/27/2008 20:28:49

      Comment: Hey, watch it! I'm a Yankee!

  • Posted By: acr0g1rl @ 04/27/2008 6:41:17 PM

    Comment: Why must all republicans be called the "religious right?" Yes, people who came to America originally were seeking religious freedom from the corruption in Europe. So doesn't that also include the "religious LEFT?" That might be more of an oxymoron, as anyone who is truly religious will be concerned about the type of moral environment in which their children grow up. Moral is not about the choice, it's about making the right choice, even if it's not the one you wanted. I think you can't blame the South; from the second American children are born, they are forced to pick sides. Democrat or Republican. And they usually choose what they grow up around and what their parents are. You might be surprised to find that in the South, there are many Yellow dog democrats who vote liberal because they don't know any better. As a Southerner, an ARKANSAN to be more precise, I get tired of hearing the stereotypes and cliches associated with the South when most of the people who spread those lies have never met a southerner. I also don't see the correlation between having a Southern accent and the ability to be a great leader. Also, if tolerance=sucking up to, and or kissing the ass of someone who lives in the northeast, or living an "alternate lifestyle," then I will never be tolerant. I have lived in Pennsylvania and people there were rude and hateful. CSI912 was right... this article does make me proud to be southern, and if the northeasterners don't like it, good. They can stay there.

  • Posted By: csi912 @ 04/27/2008 6:14:05 PM

    Comment: COMMENT I WANT TO POST ON NEWSWEEK ARTICLE:

    Wow. Um. Wow. I...er...well, I'm rather speechless actually. Wow. That has got to be one of the most insulting and offensive articles/opinion pieces I've ever read in my entire life. I'll say it again...wow. Never before have I been so proud to be a southerner if that is what this guy thinks we're like (i.e. ???The outcome was that a substantial portion of the new nation developed, over many generations, a rather savage, unsophisticated set of mores.???(emphasis mine)).

    And I agree with the author mentioned in this article (Gaines M. Foster)...today's south isn't really the "south." Too many of those eastern sensibilities have leaked down here (The author???s own comment: ???Traditionally, it has been balanced by a more diplomatic, communitarian Yankee sensibility from the Northeast and upper Midwest.??? (emphasis mine)). I mean, we have drive by shootings now. We have forgotten to take our hats off at dinner or open doors for ladies. We no longer really practice hospitality anymore and that aggravates me to no end. We no longer say please and thank you or ma'am and sir. We have given up family picnics for divorce court. Our daughters are no longer belles, but scantily clad nymphs trying to look like the latest celebrity. Nope. There's not much of that ol' southern spirit anymore. Too many people from the east has mucked it all up for us with their influence. Thanks a lot.

    But what really gets me...what really irritates me about this article...if I'd written the same thing about the northeast, I'd be labeled as intolerant.

  • Posted By: csi912 @ 04/27/2008 6:11:47 PM

    Comment: Wow. Um. Wow. I...er...well, I'm rather speechless actually. Wow. That has got to be one of the most insulting and offensive articles/opinion pieces I've ever read in my entire life. I'll say it again...wow. Never before have I been so proud to be a southerner if that is what this guy thinks we're like (i.e. ???The outcome was that a substantial portion of the new nation developed, over many generations, a rather savage, unsophisticated set of mores.???(emphasis mine)).

    And I agree with the author mentioned in this article (Gaines M. Foster)...today's south isn't really the "south." Too many of those eastern sensibilities have leaked down here (The author???s own comment: ???Traditionally, it has been balanced by a more diplomatic, communitarian Yankee sensibility from the Northeast and upper Midwest.??? (emphasis mine)). I mean, we have drive by shootings now. We have forgotten to take our hats off at dinner or open doors for ladies. We no longer really practice hospitality anymore and that aggravates me to no end. We no longer say please and thank you or ma'am and sir. We have given up family picnics for divorce court. Our daughters are no longer belles, but scantily clad nymphs trying to look like the latest celebrity. Nope. There's not much of that ol' southern spirit anymore. Too many people from the east has mucked it all up for us with their influence. Thanks a lot.

    But what really gets me...what really irritates me about this article...if I'd written the same thing about the northeast, I'd be labeled as intolerant.

  • Posted By: csi912 @ 04/27/2008 6:11:15 PM

    Comment: Wow. Um. Wow. I...er...well, I'm rather speechless actually. Wow. That has got to be one of the most insulting and offensive articles/opinion pieces I've ever read in my entire life. I'll say it again...wow. Never before have I been so proud to be a southerner if that is what this guy thinks we're like (i.e. ???The outcome was that a substantial portion of the new nation developed, over many generations, a rather savage, unsophisticated set of mores.???(emphasis mine)).

    And I agree with the author mentioned in this article (Gaines M. Foster)...today's south isn't really the "south." Too many of those eastern sensibilities have leaked down here (The author???s own comment: ???Traditionally, it has been balanced by a more diplomatic, communitarian Yankee sensibility from the Northeast and upper Midwest.??? (emphasis mine)). I mean, we have drive by shootings now. We have forgotten to take our hats off at dinner or open doors for ladies. We no longer really practice hospitality anymore and that aggravates me to no end. We no longer say please and thank you or ma'am and sir. We have given up family picnics for divorce court. Our daughters are no longer belles, but scantily clad nymphs trying to look like the latest celebrity. Nope. There's not much of that ol' southern spirit anymore. Too many people from the east has mucked it all up for us with their influence. Thanks a lot.

    But what really gets me...what really irritates me about this article...if I'd written the same thing about the northeast, I'd be labeled as intolerant.

  • Posted By: csi912 @ 04/27/2008 6:03:31 PM

    Comment: Wow. Um. Wow. I...er...well, I'm rather speechless actually. Wow. That has got to be one of the most insulting and offensive articles/opinion pieces I've ever read in my entire life. I'll say it again...wow. Never before have I been so proud to be a southerner if that is what this guy thinks we're like. And I agree with the author mentioned in this article...today's south isn't really the "south." Too many of those eastern sensibilities have leaked down here...I mean, we have drive by shootings now. We have forgotten to take our hats off at dinner or open doors for ladies. We no longer really practice hospitality anymore and that aggravates me to no end. We no longer say please and thank you or ma'am and sir. We have given up family picnics for divorce court. Our daughters are no longer belles, but scantily clad nymphs trying to look like the latest celebrity. Nope. There's not much of that ol' southern spirit anymore. Too many people from the east has mucked it all up for us with their influence. Thanks a lot.

    But what really gets me...what really irritates me about this article...if I'd written the same thing about the northeast, I'd be labeled as intolerant.

  • Posted By: csi912 @ 04/27/2008 6:00:52 PM

    Comment: Wow. Um. Wow. I...er...well, I'm rather speechless actually. Wow. That has got to be one of the most insulting and repulsive articles/opinion pieces I've ever read in my entire life. I'll say it again...wow. Never before have I been so proud to be a southerner if that is what this guy thinks we're like. And I agree with the author mentioned in this article...today's south isn't really the "south." Too many of those eastern sensibilities have leaked down here...I mean, we have drive by shootings now. We have forgotten to take our hats off at dinner or open doors for ladies. We no longer really practice hospitality anymore and that aggravates me to no end. We no longer say please and thank you or ma'am and sir. We have given up family picnics for divorce court. Our daughters are no longer belles, but scantily clad nymphs trying to look like the latest celebrity. Nope. There's not much of that ol' southern spirit anymore. Too many people from the east has mucked it all up for us with their influence.

    But what really gets me...what really irritates me about this article...if I'd written the same thing about the northeast, I'd be labeled as intolerant.

  • Posted By: csi912 @ 04/27/2008 6:00:20 PM

    Comment: Wow. Um. Wow. I...er...well, I'm rather speechless actually. Wow. That has got to be one of the most insulting and repulsive articles/opinion pieces I've ever read in my entire life. I'll say it again...wow. Never before have I been so proud to be a southerner if that is what this guy thinks we're like. And I agree with the author mentioned in this article...today's south isn't really the "south." Too many of those eastern sensibilities have leaked down here...I mean, we have drive by shootings now. We have forgotten to take our hats off at dinner or open doors for ladies. We no longer really practice hospitality anymore and that aggravates me to no end. We no longer say please and thank you or ma'am and sir. We have given up family picnics for divorce court. Our daughters are no longer belles, but scantily clad nymphs trying to look like the latest celebrity. Nope. There's not much of that ol' southern spirit anymore. Too many people from the east has mucked it all up for us with their influence.

    But what really gets me...what really irritates me about this article...if I'd written the same thing about the northeast, I'd be labeled as intolerant.

  • Posted By: aelric @ 04/27/2008 5:52:35 PM

    Comment: Amazing! Hirsh remarks on the Scots-Irish tendency to reject and resent Eastern elitism and then demonstrates that elitism by describing Southern mores as "unsophisticated." As I used to say of my Yankee classmates in culture shock in Tennessee -- if you don't want to be treated like a carpet-bagger, stop talking like one. I wonder if it has occured to Mr. Hirsh that the reason Southern mores have prevailed is because his own point of view has never been the dominant one in American society.

  • Posted By: PersonFromPorlock @ 04/27/2008 5:21:08 PM

    Comment: Incidentally, your 'comments' posting software is buggered. I assume no one at Newsweek actually reads the comments, or that your site supervisor is incompetent.

  • Posted By: PersonFromPorlock @ 04/27/2008 5:07:11 PM

    Comment: Incidentally, your 'comments' posting software is buggered. I assume no one at Newsweek actually reads the comments, or that your site supervisor is incompetent.

  • Posted By: PersonFromPorlock @ 04/27/2008 5:05:46 PM

    Comment: Incidentally, your 'comments' posting software is buggered. I assume no one at Newsweek actually reads the comments, or that your site supervisor is incompetent.

  • Posted By: PersonFromPorlock @ 04/27/2008 5:05:20 PM

    Comment: Incidentally, your 'comments' posting software is buggered. I assume no one at Newsweek actually reads the comments, or that your site supervisor is incompetent.

  • Posted By: PersonFromPorlock @ 04/27/2008 5:02:16 PM

    Comment: Dear Mr. Hirsch: It's been done. See "Golgafrincham."

  • Posted By: PersonFromPorlock @ 04/27/2008 5:01:27 PM

    Comment: Dear Mr. Hirsch: It's been done. See "Golgafrincham."

  • Posted By: cpg35222 @ 04/27/2008 5:01:07 PM

    Comment: In fact, let me see if I can summarize Mr. Hirsch's article:

    "There were two competing visions of what the American national character should be: The view held by people like me who spend our lives holed up in insular little places such as Manhattan or San Francisco, and the view held by people in flyover land.

    Evidently, the people in flyover land are prevailing in the war of ideas, essentially because our notions of government have proven to be such disastrous failures.

    Therefore we should take our states and go home."

    Did I get anything wrong here?

  • Posted By: cpg35222 @ 04/27/2008 5:00:55 PM

    Comment: In fact, let me see if I can summarize Mr. Hirsch's article:

    "There were two competing visions of what the American national character should be: The view held by people like me who spend our lives holed up in insular little places such as Manhattan or San Francisco, and the view held by people in flyover land.

    Evidently, the people in flyover land are prevailing in the war of ideas, essentially because our notions of government have proven to be such disastrous failures.

    Therefore we should take our states and go home."

    Did I get anything wrong here?

  • Posted By: PersonFromPorlock @ 04/27/2008 5:00:36 PM

    Comment: Dear Mr. Hirsch: It's been done. See "Golgafrincham."

  • Posted By: cpg35222 @ 04/27/2008 4:39:07 PM

    Comment: "Coarsened sensibility'?

    "Savage, unsophisticated set of mores"?

    Did this writer really mean this? If so, I think he has a very strange sense of what constitutes right and wrong in this country.

    From the time FDR won in 1932 through the Carter administration, we allowed the East Coast elites run things according to their rarefied sense of what was right and wrong. And look what we got for their efforts: A metastasizing Federal government with entitlement commitments it can't possibly keep. Cities that emptied out because of the wave of crime in the inner cities. Northern states that keep losing population because of the extraordinary tax burdens imposed upon their citizens. Entertainment that relies on shock as opposed to originality (Don't take my word for it. Wander through the New Releases section of Blockbuster and tell me how many movies you would rent that are fit for your nine-year-old to watch). A skyrocketing percentage of children not born into a two-parent household, despite social scientist's proof that an intact nuclear family is the best guarantor for emotional stability and later achievement. And the list goes on and on.

    And yet, he blames the Southerners for coarsened sensibilities and savage mores. What he's really doing is excoriating Southerners for defending that which used to be important to America. Keeping the power of government in check. Believing that this country stands for principles worth defending. Not allowing one's child to watch a DVD filled with words you'd not utter in public.

    Whose sensibilities are coarse? Whose mores are savage? Is it any wonder that, because of the abuses of the so-called Eastern elites, there is such a groundswell of support for Southern political thought in this country?

    By the way. An incredible inconsistency on the part of the author of this screed. The political principles of this country were drafted by Southerners. Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, among others. He would do well to remember that Southern political thought served this country well over the past 230 years.

  • Posted By: eek25 @ 04/27/2008 3:46:02 PM

    Comment: I think secession talk, while ludicrous, may be justified as a way of moving the needed-but-missing dialogue about how insane so much of America, especially as represented by Bush's administration, has become. Ludicrous gestures and bluffs like that are about as subtle as the Bible-beaters can get. Seriously, though, I am really quite, quite tired of having my country perceived as a bunch of half-witted, flag-waving religious fundamentalists. These notions, which are alien to me and nothing I as a normal, modern human could ever support, are sadly part and parcel of my identity as a 21st-century American. I love my home in the Northeast and love America in general, but I am tired of being ashamed of my countrymen who are running from the modern world and science at a rate unprecedented in Western history.

  • Posted By: CindyLou Who @ 04/27/2008 3:27:42 PM

    Comment: I second richard mcenroe's comment, although less inoffensively: don't let the door bang you in the ass on your way out. All Yankees who've moved south of the Mason-Dixon Line have 48 hours to get the hell back on the other side. There. Fixed that problem for ya, Mr. Hirsch.

  • Posted By: Not stupid in Alabama @ 04/27/2008 3:26:29 PM

    Comment: Hah! Obama isn't anything new. He's typical of "pay to play" Chicago politics. Check out the new story on him at www.latimes.com, click the link to the political section if you don't see the lead on their main page.

    Obama's campaign does not deny the facts, only the connection between the "work" Obama did for the company, the campaign donations, and the taxpayer money that was paid to the company on Obama's recommendations. Sounds like what was going on with Rezko to me. Also sounds like the kind of politics "pay to play" Emil Jones, Jr. was teaching Mr. Obama.

  • Posted By: Not stupid in Alabama @ 04/27/2008 3:23:46 PM

    Comment: Hah! Obama isn't anything new. He's typical of "pay to play" Chicago politics. Check out the new story on him at www.latimes.com, click the link to the political section if you don't see the lead on their main page.

  • Posted By: richard mcenroe @ 04/27/2008 3:22:23 PM

    Comment: Let's see: dwindling numbers of Americans are no lonher reading your newspapers, watching your TV shows, buying your music or electing your candidates. Oh... and the West Coast version of "Wicked" is way better;



    Seceding?

    Don't let the door smack you in the butt on the way out.

  • Posted By: richard mcenroe @ 04/27/2008 2:53:47 PM

    Comment: Let's see: dwindling numbers of Americans are no lonher reading your newspapers, watching your TV shows, buying your music or electing your candidates. Oh... and the West Coast version of "Wicked" is way better;



    Seceding?

    Don't let the door smack you in the butt on the way out.

  • Posted By: richard mcenroe @ 04/27/2008 2:51:56 PM

    Comment: Let's see: dwindling numbers of Americans are no lonher reading your newspapers, watching your TV shows, buying your music or electing your candidates. Oh... and the West Coast version of "Wicked" is way better;



    Seceding?

    Don't let the door smack you in the butt on the way out.

  • Posted By: richard mcenroe @ 04/27/2008 2:51:00 PM

    Comment: Let's see: dwindling numbers of Americans are no lonher reading your newspapers, watching your TV shows, buying your music or electing your candidates. Oh... and the West Coast version of "Wicked" is way better;



    Seceding?

    Don't let the door smack you in the butt on the way out.

  • Posted By: richard mcenroe @ 04/27/2008 2:48:38 PM

    Comment: Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

  • Posted By: richard mcenroe @ 04/27/2008 2:48:26 PM

    Comment: Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

  • Posted By: evanslyne @ 04/27/2008 2:33:50 PM

    Comment: What an incredibly pompous attitude to characterize the south as having a "savage, unsophisticated set of mores" and a "coarsened sensibility." Can it be any wonder that my ancestors would have preferred not to be dominated by northern elitists who viewed them in this way? Can it be any wonder that many southerners would still choose to have a southern nation free of those with attitudes such as the ones expressed in this article? If Mr. Hirsh is able to find a mecahnism by which the North can secede, I am certain that he would find considerable support in the south for his movement.

    Perhaps Mr. Hirsh should explore the origin of the term "damn yankee" in his next article. Surely he could find the roots of the term without leaving home.

    Evans Lyne, M.D., Ph.D.
    Knoxville, TN

  • Posted By: HolyRoller @ 04/27/2008 2:27:38 PM

    Comment: When all is said and done, most criticism of the South, is simple jealousy. Jealous of the culture. Jealous of the food. Jealous of the weather. Jealous of the natural beauty. Jealous of the economic opportunity. Jealous of the pretty ladies. Jealous of our family values. Jealous of our college football. Jealous of our accepting racial diversity. It goes on and on, but one thing is for sure. Southern Heritage is the envy of all America.

    NOBAMA!!!

  • Posted By: ChristianAmerican @ 04/27/2008 2:04:12 PM

    Comment: Please don't trash people you know little about it. It is difficult for a Jewish American to understand many things city-folks like jews usually never had traditions of doing such as owning guns, hunting, and joining miliitary services. But you can at least show some humility to your fellow Americans who do not persecute you people and who support Israel even they in their guts know that Israelis are wrong side of the history.

  • Posted By: ChristianAmerican @ 04/27/2008 2:02:49 PM

    Comment: Please don't trash people you know little about it. It is difficult for a Jewish American to understand many things city-folks like jews usually never had traditions of doing such as owning guns, hunting, and joining miliitary services. But you can at least show some humility to your fellow Americans who do not persecute you people and who support Israel even they in their guts know that Israelis are wrong side of the history.

  • Posted By: SouthernCelt @ 04/27/2008 1:43:25 PM

    Comment: This article is hate speech.

  • Posted By: maxboots2008 @ 04/27/2008 1:32:42 PM

    Comment: By far the best article written in this magazine. Intelligent, based on reality (not supposition), witty, and not politically biased. Your other authors could take lessons from Hirsh.

    • Posted By: Mariana S @ 04/27/2008 19:12:28

      Comment: Oh. Irony. Cool.

  • Posted By: doggymommy @ 04/27/2008 1:31:52 PM

    Comment: a Canadian chimes in - Part II

    My school is notoriously cheap with the marks, but I've written 'A' papers about the
    demise of your legal system - the loss of your progressiveness and your literal
    interpretations of your constitution. I've written statistically based papers about how
    democracies around the globe are citing your court decisions less and less. How the same
    democracies, now slightly less in awe of your military and economic might, are slowly but steadily
    forming a counterfoil to US isolationism. A coalition of sanity. Not the UN smokescreen
    that you guys are always yammering about, but like, real power. (These are the six or
    seven countries right now whose populations combined well outnumber yours. Who don't
    have to not talk about their 9 trillion dollar debt clocks. Who aren't completely mired
    in futile battles in countries they know so little about.)

    I used to watch only American news. Read mostly American history. (Though I missed most
    of the historical references in your article.) But I came to appreciate my own country
    after a few weeks in my first year. Canadian history may be as boring as watching paste
    dry; but from a legal standpoint - a constitutional standpoint - the story is far more
    involved.

    Your constitution, on the other hand, has become a shrivelled antique, and I think the assault against its spirit is where the South has really won. And the document is already quite old by today's
    standards (Canada's dates back only to 1982; Germany's to 1947 or thereabouts; Israel???s
    and South Africa's to the 1990's.) Your literalist approach to interpreting it, however,
    makes yours far more ancient than it really is. Put simply, unless you breathe a little life into 1776 ??? make it relevant to today, you???re in danger of falling behind the times.

    We, Canadians or Americans, live in the shadow of the law, I've learned. And all that
    means is that it helps constitute our relationships. (I can think of no relationship that the
    law has just let be, anyway.) The law isn't money, or the police, or judges or lawyers.
    It's relationships.

    But your laws do not give you a fighting chance. Your courts set the tone for
    your country - for your relationships with one another or "the rest of the world" and you
    spend weeks talking about pubic hairs on Coke cans. In the meantime, the blatant and
    open politicization of your judiciary is a loss of a huge voice - a potentially
    thoughtful and moderating voice. Yet the loss isn't even discussed. I wonder if it's
    even noticed by you.

    The South would have it so, I think, and I'd really consider cutting them loose before
    they drag the whole shebang down. Toronto has nothing on New York; Vancouver nothing on
    Seattle.

    You still have the makings for a good little country there.

    john mackenzie (Celtic and Catholic refugee, btw ??? from the Scottish Highlands, however)

    PS I doubt you'll pull it off, but I'll still watch the movies.

  • Posted By: doggymommy @ 04/27/2008 1:30:26 PM

    Comment: Part II of the Canadian's rant.

    My school is notoriously cheap with the marks, but I've written 'A' papers about the
    demise of your legal system - the loss of your progressiveness and your literal
    interpretations of your constitution. I've written statistically based papers about how
    democracies around the globe are citing your court decisions less and less. How the same
    democracies, now slightly less in awe of your military and economic might, are slowly but steadily
    forming a counterfoil to US isolationism. A coalition of sanity. Not the UN smokescreen
    that you guys are always yammering about, but like, real power. (These are the six or
    seven countries right now whose populations combined well outnumber yours. Who don't
    have to not talk about their 9 trillion dollar debt clocks. Who aren't completely mired
    in futile battles in countries they know so little about.)

    I used to watch only American news. Read mostly American history. (Though I missed most
    of the historical references in your article.) But I came to appreciate my own country
    after a few weeks in my first year. Canadian history may be as boring as watching paste
    dry; but from a legal standpoint - a constitutional standpoint - the story is far more
    involved.

    Your constitution, on the other hand, has become a shrivelled antique, and I think the assault against its spirit is where the South has really won. And the document is already quite old by today's
    standards (Canada's dates back only to 1982; Germany's to 1947 or thereabouts; Israel???s
    and South Africa's to the 1990's.) Your literalist approach to interpreting it, however,
    makes yours far more ancient than it really is. Put simply, unless you breathe a little life into 1776 ??? make it relevant to today, you???re in danger of falling behind the times.

    We, Canadians or Americans, live in the shadow of the law, I've learned. And all that
    means is that it helps constitute our relationships. (I can think of no relationship that the
    law has just let be, anyway.) The law isn't money, or the police, or judges or lawyers.
    It's relationships.

    But your laws do not give you a fighting chance. Your courts set the tone for
    your country - for your relationships with one another or "the rest of the world" and you
    spend weeks talking about pubic hairs on Coke cans. In the meantime, the blatant and
    open politicization of your judiciary is a loss of a huge voice - a potentially
    thoughtful and moderating voice. Yet the loss isn't even discussed. I wonder if it's
    even noticed by you.

    The South would have it so, I think, and I'd really consider cutting them loose before
    they drag the whole shebang down. Toronto has nothing on New York; Vancouver nothing on
    Seattle.

    You still have the makings for a good little country there.

    john mackenzie (Celtic and Catholic refugee, btw ??? from the Scottish Highlands, however)

    PS I doubt you'll pull it off, but I'll still watch the movies.

  • Posted By: doggymommy @ 04/27/2008 1:29:40 PM

    Comment: Part II of the Canadian's rant.

    My school is notoriously cheap with the marks, but I've written 'A' papers about the
    demise of your legal system - the loss of your progressiveness and your literal
    interpretations of your constitution. I've written statistically based papers about how
    democracies around the globe are citing your court decisions less and less. How the same
    democracies, now slightly less in awe of your military and economic might, are slowly but steadily
    forming a counterfoil to US isolationism. A coalition of sanity. Not the UN smokescreen
    that you guys are always yammering about, but like, real power. (These are the six or
    seven countries right now whose populations combined well outnumber yours. Who don't
    have to not talk about their 9 trillion dollar debt clocks. Who aren't completely mired
    in futile battles in countries they know so little about.)

    I used to watch only American news. Read mostly American history. (Though I missed most
    of the historical references in your article.) But I came to appreciate my own country
    after a few weeks in my first year. Canadian history may be as boring as watching paste
    dry; but from a legal standpoint - a constitutional standpoint - the story is far more
    involved.

    Your constitution, on the other hand, has become a shrivelled antique, and I think the assault against its spirit is where the South has really won. And the document is already quite old by today's
    standards (Canada's dates back only to 1982; Germany's to 1947 or thereabouts; Israel???s
    and South Africa's to the 1990's.) Your literalist approach to interpreting it, however,
    makes yours far more ancient than it really is. Put simply, unless you breathe a little life into 1776 ??? make it relevant to today, you???re in danger of falling behind the times.

    We, Canadians or Americans, live in the shadow of the law, I've learned. And all that
    means is that it helps constitute our relationships. (I can think of no relationship that the
    law has just let be, anyway.) The law isn't money, or the police, or judges or lawyers.
    It's relationships.

    But your laws do not give you a fighting chance. Your courts set the tone for
    your country - for your relationships with one another or "the rest of the world" and you
    spend weeks talking about pubic hairs on Coke cans. In the meantime, the blatant and
    open politicization of your judiciary is a loss of a huge voice - a potentially
    thoughtful and moderating voice. Yet the loss isn't even discussed. I wonder if it's
    even noticed by you.

    The South would have it so, I think, and I'd really consider cutting them loose before
    they drag the whole shebang down. Toronto has nothing on New York; Vancouver nothing on
    Seattle.

    You still have the makings for a good little country there.

    john mackenzie (Celtic and Catholic refugee, btw ??? from the Scottish Highlands, however)

    PS I doubt you'll pull it off, but I'll still watch the movies.

  • Posted By: doggymommy @ 04/27/2008 1:29:09 PM

    Comment: Part II of the Canadian's rant.

    My school is notoriously cheap with the marks, but I've written 'A' papers about the
    demise of your legal system - the loss of your progressiveness and your literal
    interpretations of your constitution. I've written statistically based papers about how
    democracies around the globe are citing your court decisions less and less. How the same
    democracies, now slightly less in awe of your military and economic might, are slowly but steadily
    forming a counterfoil to US isolationism. A coalition of sanity. Not the UN smokescreen
    that you guys are always yammering about, but like, real power. (These are the six or
    seven countries right now whose populations combined well outnumber yours. Who don't
    have to not talk about their 9 trillion dollar debt clocks. Who aren't completely mired
    in futile battles in countries they know so little about.)

    I used to watch only American news. Read mostly American history. (Though I missed most
    of the historical references in your article.) But I came to appreciate my own country
    after a few weeks in my first year. Canadian history may be as boring as watching paste
    dry; but from a legal standpoint - a constitutional standpoint - the story is far more
    involved.

    Your constitution, on the other hand, has become a shrivelled antique, and I think the assault against its spirit is where the South has really won. And the document is already quite old by today's
    standards (Canada's dates back only to 1982; Germany's to 1947 or thereabouts; Israel???s
    and South Africa's to the 1990's.) Your literalist approach to interpreting it, however,
    makes yours far more ancient than it really is. Put simply, unless you breathe a little life into 1776 ??? make it relevant to today, you???re in danger of falling behind the times.

    We, Canadians or Americans, live in the shadow of the law, I've learned. And all that
    means is that it helps constitute our relationships. (I can think of no relationship that the
    law has just let be, anyway.) The law isn't money, or the police, or judges or lawyers.
    It's relationships.

    But your laws do not give you a fighting chance. Your courts set the tone for
    your country - for your relationships with one another or "the rest of the world" and you
    spend weeks talking about pubic hairs on Coke cans. In the meantime, the blatant and
    open politicization of your judiciary is a loss of a huge voice - a potentially
    thoughtful and moderating voice. Yet the loss isn't even discussed. I wonder if it's
    even noticed by you.

    The South would have it so, I think, and I'd really consider cutting them loose before
    they drag the whole shebang down. Toronto has nothing on New York; Vancouver nothing on
    Seattle.

    You still have the makings for a good little country there.

    john mackenzie (Celtic and Catholic refugee, btw ??? from the Scottish Highlands, however)

    PS I doubt you'll pull it off, but I'll still watch the movies.

  • Posted By: doggymommy @ 04/27/2008 1:28:13 PM

    Comment: April 27, 2008

    [a Canadian chimes in on the South ??? complete with Canadian spelling]

    Part I

    Michael,

    Good article. About time, I think, someone wrote it. (Like I would know if they had,
    right?) I think the implications of your idea go a little farther than you think though.

    Your country is simply fascinating: those beautiful Hollywood movies on the one hand and,
    well, George W. Bush on the other. New York and California culture, and that poor black
    kid who went to jail for the most harmless of sexual behaviour. (CNN's airing his public apology to boot.) Bill Clinton still being an idealist after all that he must have seen, and "the right to bear
    arms" in an age far different than your ancestors. Space shuttles and nukes ...


    The internal shift in culture - power - that you identify, for better or worse, has been
    long obvious to anyone else in the world who has given that sort of thing a bit of thought. From my
    point of view, that of a Canadian law student, it's all just a little bit sad. Your
    civil rights courts led the world - or at least North America. Now - recently - I was
    watching the US news - listening to lawyers give their take on some crime or another -
    listening to them speak the very same careful and analytical language that I'm learning
    to speak - and then just like that: a "reasoned" discussion about the death penalty.

    It made my cringe. It makes the world cringe. It was like that Donald Sutherland scream at the end of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers."

    As you mention, the issues that seem to be re-opening in this latest group of political primaries are
    pretty strong support for your idea. It's not the politician's answers that frame the
    debate; it's the many banal and useless questions that they are being asked. Whether
    you'd vote for him or not, look at that poor guy Obama - you can see the disappointment
    on his face. The tiredness and loss of purpose. (If he doesn't quit, he'll win though,
    I think. You guys seem to prefer "race winners" to "gender winners" - more of the
    unresolved South at work there maybe. I think you're a very long way from a real gender
    discussion, though: OJ was black; and his mutilated wife with her head nearly hacked off
    was just a woman. I wonder how many more women than blacks take a beating in your
    country? I wonder what percentage of those women live in the South. Maybe another Civil
    War is in order.)

    On a somewhat unrelated topic, you mentioned 9/11 in your article, and though I'm no
    Reverend Wright, when that whole business happened, I just didn't get the big deal. That
    kind of thing has been going on all over the place hasn't it? Why is your country
    special?

    Don't tread on me, baby.

  • Posted By: Not stupid in Alabama @ 04/27/2008 12:43:47 PM

    Comment: It isn't racism or southernism. Obama makes his own problems for himself, no one has to help him. Like his allegiance to Rev. Wright, and his association with Rezko and "pay to play" Emil Jones, Jr., who got his political career started, and his "cling to" comments that display his frustration and bitterness that rural voters don't like him, and his statement that he wouldn't want his daughters "punished" with a baby if they had sex out of wedlock.


    Today that problem is his solution to the complaint that his health plan would leave open the loopholes Insurance companies use to avoid paying for catastrophic illnesses, like the "preexisting condition" loophole. If people don't have insurance, or let it lapse for whatever reason, private insurance doesn't have to cover any condition that existed before you join their plan. Even the Portablity Act that continues your insurance from one employer to the next provides for an 18 month window before the new insurance company must begin paying.

    So after this problem was pointed out recently, Obama began saying that there will be no preexisting condition exemption in his plan.

    What does that mean? It sound