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Corn Dogs

Gas prices keep rising. So why are ethanol producers hurting?

By Daniel Gross | Newsweek Web Exclusive
May 8, 2008 | Updated: 11:27  a.m. ET May 8, 2008

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  • Posted By: ArtPig @ 05/12/2008 8:43:18 AM

    Comment: I saw a program on Brazil's use of ethonal in most of its vehicles which have flexfuel capacitiy (either pure ethonal or gasoline use) which has substantially lowered air polution, increased MPG in vehicles and most importantly, the cost of the ethonal at the pump was VERY low, due its production using sugar beets instead of corn as we use here. It seems that sugar beets generate a very high amount of ethonal per pound and sugar as well, as a byproduct. Perhaps if the United States were to follow the Brazilian model, it would be more cost efficient to produce and the price at the pump could be much lower, thus stimulating the auto industry to produce flexfuel compatible vehicles...

    • Posted By: misterharban @ 05/12/2008 11:28:43

      Comment: Brazil uses sugar CANE, not sugar BEETS. The production of sugar from cane is very, very labor intensive and, by most standards, as practiced in Brazil borders on human rights abuse. Notwithstanding, that the United States does not have very many places where the climate favors growing sugar cane, the cost of production of sugar from cane is much higher here than in Brazil. As to the use of beets to make ethanol in the United States, it has economic or agricultural advantage over corn.

      Ethanol, whether in Brazil or the United States, results in a reduction of miles per gallon of vehicles switching from gasoline to ethanol.

      In Brazil, any reduction of air pollution from the use of ethanol would come from the reduced sulfur content of the ethanol blend. This is not an issue in the United States since our refineries remove most of the sulfur from our motor fuels. Refineries in many other countries, for example Mexico and Brazil, are not required to do this.

      Finally, it is likely that Brazil will become less and less dependent on ethanol as it becomes the western hemisphere???s largest oil producer as a result of its development of its newly discovered oil reserves. Like the United States, it will discovery that if there is any commodity in the world more valuable than oil, it is food. Land set aside to grow sugar cane, beets or corn can almost always be more valuable for growing food than for growing fuel.

      • Posted By: misterharban @ 05/12/2008 11:31:06

        Comment: My entry should state that the use of beets to make ethanol has no economic or agricultural advantage over corn

  • Posted By: Tangito @ 05/11/2008 4:52:47 AM

    Comment: Etehenol production is hampered by the huge amount of water it takes to produce it. Water will soon become as precious as oil.

  • Posted By: Garett @ 05/10/2008 11:03:49 PM

    Comment: We will prabably need someone to follow the money to figuree out why our country decided to use one of our most critical commodities to develop ethanol. We continue to create systems that drive up the cost of living and bring minimal benefit. The next commodity to strangle us will be electricity. We have limited sources, growing demand. and a regulatory system that will not address this in any substantial manner.

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/10/2008 4:45:29 PM

    Comment: poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power.

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    War ends We win: when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills: OPEC would lower crude prices to 10/bbl to rust out the stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC lowering the crude prices to way lower than ethanol cost.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: Yes, All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/10/2008 4:44:38 PM

    Comment: 1 If I get 1 billion BTUs for free and turn them into 1 gallon of ethanol, around 76000BTUs, then who cares.

    2 It takes more BTUs to make a gallon of gasoline than you get from the approx 128,000BTUs in a gallon.

    3 It is the quality and form of the BTU, not how many BTUs one uses: the BTUs in auto fuel are a higher use quality than the BTUs contained in a match stick.

    4 My recommendation was cellulose ethanol not corn/food ethanol; so your divert agriculture stuff is a result of brainwashing/ mind made up so do not bother me with facts; you did not read &/or comprehend the strategy. Perhaps you should have asked what is ethanol derived from cellulose.

    5. It is better to pay $5.00/gallon for domestically produced ethanol than to send any money, not even 1 cent, to Islamic terrorist governments dedicated to use the money to destroy the West: Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Iran, Iraq et al; and I have been sending that message to our Congress for 26 years.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: dredpir8rbts @ 05/10/2008 3:58:00 PM

    Comment: Our energy return in our heavily oil-dependent agriculture system is approximately 1 calorie of food energy for every 10 calories of work energy. we are losing energy at every point in the production chain starting from the first step. We would be better off just refining oil into gasoline. We have to use oil to grow the corn (or cellulose, or whatever) to make ethanol. The end result is that we are in worse shape than when we started using ethanol and the bottom line of the companies involved proves it. What should prove it to you is the massive increase in prices at the pump and groceries at the store. The only thing that will bring prices down is demand destruction which will occur through war, poverty, and the economic unrecoverability of oil. If the moon were completely composed of oil we would be in the same condition we are in right now because although we can fly there to get the oil, we can't bring any back at any financially recoverable level. Enjoy the holocaust.

  • Posted By: jpooch00 @ 05/10/2008 3:48:07 PM

    Comment: I assume that since the government says that ethanol is a great idea, then it has to be total BS.

  • Posted By: Jake101 @ 05/10/2008 10:15:57 AM

    Comment: This article is poorly researched. It looks over the fact that it takes as much energy to produce ethanol as you produce when you burn it. Besides using a tremendous amount of water. Another point most people don't know or care about is the amount of energy produced is far less than an equal amount of gas. So you really end of spending more for less.

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/10/2008 4:58:39 AM

    Comment: poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power.

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    War ends We win: when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills: OPEC would lower crude prices to 10/bbl to rust out the stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC lowering the crude prices to way lower than ethanol cost.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: Yes, All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/10/2008 4:58:08 AM

    Comment: 1 If I get 1 billion BTUs for free and turn them into 1 gallon of ethanol, around 76000BTUs, then who cares.

    2 It takes more BTUs to make a gallon of gasoline than you get from the approx 128,000BTUs in a gallon.

    3 It is the quality and form of the BTU, not how many BTUs one uses: the BTUs in auto fuel are a higher use quality than the BTUs contained in a match stick.

    4 My recommendation was cellulose ethanol not corn/food ethanol; so your divert agriculture stuff is a result of brainwashing/ mind made up so do not bother me with facts; you did not read &/or comprehend the strategy. Perhaps you should have asked what is ethanol derived from cellulose.

    5. It is better to pay $5.00/gallon for domestically produced ethanol than to send any money, not even 1 cent, to Islamic terrorist governments dedicated to use the money to destroy the West: Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Iran, Iraq et al; and I have been sending that message to our Congress for 26 years.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/10/2008 4:21:43 AM

    Comment: poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power.

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    War ends We win: when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills: OPEC would lower crude prices to 10/bbl to rust out the stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC lowering the crude prices to way lower than ethanol cost.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: Yes, All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: pyper1 @ 05/09/2008 10:42:04 PM

    Comment: The Government never gets anything right until you pratically slap them in the face with it. These ethylalcohol plants need to stop using food for fuel and start using a much more lucrative process that is utilized by the paper manufacturing industry for hundreds of years. They break down pulp tree fibers utilizing an Enzyme and Heat to remove the complex sugars that bond the fibers to one another. These sugras are contained in
    a plant debris. The paper industry in this country produces enough of what is called "Black Syrup", which are the sugars that have been removed from the pulp trees. At the present time these sugars are being wastefully used in a bulk feed burn process to help remove even more sugars from more trees.
    If the "Black Syrup" presently produced by the paper industry was distilled into "MethylAlcohol", which is 100 times more potent than the EthylAlcohol, because it incorporates "Methane Gas" as a liquid into the very same main ingredient which is EthylAlcohol.
    It is not oly feaseable, but possible to utilize "Any Plant Debris" provided it is not decompossing to extract the sugars that remain in even in the dead matter of plant debris. If one was to utilize the Black Syrup from the paper industry alone it would produce "Six (6) Billion Gallons" of MethylAlcohol each year and with the Ethyl-Alcohol infused with the critical ingredient Methane Gas (ie. Liquid) it would give not only the paper industry enough viable fuel source and have vastly ample resources of the fuel left over for sale.
    This is a win win situation and the government knows all about it .Yet as is always the case with our government it does not like to admit it created one of the greatest blunders any nation has yet to commit, which is use the food it needs to live on to make a fuel that can not turn a profit with the Government Heavely Subsidizing it to inflate its cost.
    Now if you ask me that is a prime example of throwing good money after bad!!!
    Use Waste Not Food who's "Cost Ratio" is Always a Positive one as the main ingredient is Free!!!
    KRS North Dakota

    • Posted By: smokey_joe @ 05/09/2008 23:36:37

      Comment: pyper1 has made lots of good points here, but my information is that the federal government has been pressuring big ethanol producers toward using non-food biomass to produce ethanol and has been threatening the reduction or removal of subsidies for food-derived ethanol in favor of those, such as Coskata Corporation (www.coskata.com) who use no food products at all in their production of ethanol. pyper1 has given a very accurate of the feedstock used by Coskata. Also, the National Renwable Energy Laboratory (www.nrel.gov) has also been doing its own research into ethanol from non-food biomass. The solution is in front of us. It only needs the intelligent support of an informed public.

  • Posted By: Integrity1st @ 05/09/2008 9:44:15 PM

    Comment: First off , all the grain produce for ethonol is a fairy tail to shoot it down as to say . The Big oil bosses are not telling the whole story on this . Ethonol yeids less ethonol from grains if you want to know the truth . Switchgrass , sugar beets, wood chips and yes even gargage yeids more than CORN . Its the same ole same ole about pulling the wool over the publics eyes and using fear tactics of FOOD SHORTAGES to shut down a good idea that could and would change the worlds fossil fuel problems . WAKE UP AMERICA

    Integrity 1st

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 9:30:11 PM

    Comment: poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power.

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    War ends We win: when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills: OPEC would lower crude prices to 10/bbl to rust out the stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC lowering the crude prices to way lower than ethanol cost.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: Yes, All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 9:18:40 PM

    Comment: Daniels Gross lies:

    1) poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power???

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    War ends We win: when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC.

    The ethanol investors do not build ethanol distilleries because monopoly OPEC would lower the price to rust out their billion dollar million barrel a day ethanol still. Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: Yes, All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 9:18:07 PM

    Comment: 1 If I get 1 billion BTUs for free and turn them into 1 gallon of ethanol, around 76000BTUs, then who cares.

    2 It takes more BTUs to make a gallon of gasoline than you get from the approx 128,000BTUs in a gallon.

    3 It is the quality and form of the BTU, not how many BTUs one uses: the BTUs in auto fuel are a higher use quality than the BTUs contained in a match stick.

    4 My recommendation was cellulose ethanol not corn/food ethanol; so your divert agriculture stuff is a result of brainwashing/ mind made up so do not bother me with facts; you did not read &/or comprehend the strategy. Perhaps you should have asked what is ethanol derived from cellulose.

    5. It is better to pay $5.00/gallon for domestically produced ethanol than to send any money, not even 1 cent, to Islamic terrorist governments dedicated to use the money to destroy the West: Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Iran, Iraq et al; and I have been sending that message to our Congress for 26 years.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: dinoman @ 05/09/2008 8:57:48 PM

    Comment: It's not the economy dumby.......IT'S OIL! Why do you think we are in this mess...OIL. Oil is part of everything we do, from transportation to manufacturing. Why are we so protective of our enviroment. We have gov. agencies to monitor the extraction of oil. IF THEY WOULD DO THEIR JOB AND STOP THE GOOD OL BOY THINKING. Hannity said it " watch out when we start burning up our food supply for energy LOOK OUT!"

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 7:59:33 PM

    Comment: Daniels Gross lies:

    1) poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power???

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    War ends We win: when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC.

    The ethanol investors do not build ethanol distilleries because monopoly OPEC would lower the price to rust out their billion dollar million barrel a day ethanol still. Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: Yes, All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 7:59:05 PM

    Comment: 1 If I get 1 billion BTUs for free and turn them into 1 gallon of ethanol, around 76000BTUs, then who cares.

    2 It takes more BTUs to make a gallon of gasoline than you get from the approx 128,000BTUs in a gallon.

    3 It is the quality and form of the BTU, not how many BTUs one uses: the BTUs in auto fuel are a higher use quality than the BTUs contained in a match stick.

    4 My recommendation was cellulose ethanol not corn/food ethanol; so your divert agriculture stuff is a result of brainwashing/ mind made up so do not bother me with facts; you did not read &/or comprehend the strategy. Perhaps you should have asked what is ethanol derived from cellulose.

    5. It is better to pay $5.00/gallon for domestically produced ethanol than to send any money, not even 1 cent, to Islamic terrorist governments dedicated to use the money to destroy the West: Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Iran, Iraq et al; and I have been sending that message to our Congress for 26 years.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: smokey_joe @ 05/09/2008 7:44:04 PM

    Comment: Daniel Gross is stirring a witch's caldron of misinformation. Many economists now say that the rising cost of food commodities has much more to do with the rising price of oil, ferilizers produced from oil, crops harvested with harvesting machines running on gasoline and crops transported to market on trucks fueled with oil. He mentions consumers in Mumbai/Bombay, India suffering as a result of American corn diverted to ethanol, but never offers to describe how such a stretched and tortured reasoning came to that conclusion. He also never mentions that a large and growing percentage of American ethanol is produced without food products from biomass source materials such as wood, switchgrass, old tires and garbage. Could it be that Daniel Gross is functioning as mouthpiece for the oil lobby which is trying very hard to maintain a low profile in this period of ever-rising prices at the gas pump? I think he is one of those who would like the American people to feel powerless, impotent and without hope so that big oil can continue to rake in ever-higher profits and say "Its not our fault. We just don't have any competition." Daniel Gross also never mentions the fuel from coal alternative which the governor of Montana is practically begging the American people to try at $1.00 per gallon and which would last for at least 200 years or until something better comes along. There are multiple solutions to the current oil price runup, if only the oil industry and its sleezy salesmen would stop blocking the path to progress.
    If you would like to know the real truth about this question, simply read the article "Its the Agronomy, Stupid", because Mike Mack has placed the real facts before us - not the rumors, tortured logic and rants by oil company spin doctors.

    • Posted By: getzel @ 05/10/2008 04:57:30

      Comment: Daniel Gross liar does not evenread his own magzine: "Its the Agronomy, Stupid; Newsweek 2007

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 7:06:11 PM

    Comment: Daniels Gross lies:

    1) poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power???

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    War ends We win: when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC.

    The ethanol investors do not build ethanol distilleries because monopoly OPEC would lower the price to rust out their billion dollar million barrel a day ethanol still. Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: Yes, All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 7:05:30 PM

    Comment: 1 If I get 1 billion BTUs for free and turn them into 1 gallon of ethanol, around 76000BTUs, then who cares.

    2 It takes more BTUs to make a gallon of gasoline than you get from the approx 128,000BTUs in a gallon.

    3 It is the quality and form of the BTU, not how many BTUs one uses: the BTUs in auto fuel are a higher use quality than the BTUs contained in a match stick.

    4 My recommendation was cellulose ethanol not corn/food ethanol; so your divert agriculture stuff is a result of brainwashing/ mind made up so do not bother me with facts; you did not read &/or comprehend the strategy. Perhaps you should have asked what is ethanol derived from cellulose.

    5. It is better to pay $5.00/gallon for domestically produced ethanol than to send any money, not even 1 cent, to Islamic terrorist governments dedicated to use the money to destroy the West: Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Iran, Iraq et al; and I have been sending that message to our Congress for 26 years.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 6:53:08 PM

    Comment: Daniels Gross lies:

    1) poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power???

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    War ends We win: when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC.

    The ethanol investors do not build ethanol distilleries because monopoly OPEC would lower the price to rust out their billion dollar million barrel a day ethanol still. Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: Yes, All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: liw1944 @ 05/09/2008 6:35:28 PM

    Comment: Research has shown that it costs more units of energy to plant, harvest, and process the corn than one gets back in ethanol 'units of energy'. The process was an economic disaster in Brazil. It's a boondoggle..

    • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 18:49:42

      Comment: Lie w1944; Is the Exxon Mobil liar traitor dog. Bald faced liar.

      I built a still and converted my car to ethanol in 1982. I have the research and the data.

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 5:37:40 PM

    Comment: Daniels Gross lies:

    1) poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power???

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    War ends We win: when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC.

    The ethanol investors do not build ethanol distilleries because monopoly OPEC would lower the price to rust out their billion dollar million barrel a day ethanol still. Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: Yes, All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: cornflake @ 05/09/2008 4:04:06 PM

    Comment: by the look of these comments I think the readers are the ones who are the most misinformed. Ethanol is really meant to be an additive to help complete the combustion of the fuel. MTB was used but it failed because it was a carciogenic substance and became banned. Ethanol was never meant to take the place of gasoline. One can not produce enough to meet that kind of demand. But it can help with emissions with out being a hazard to us. There is only one way to help ourselves from our own failings. decide to use less or find another source.

    • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 18:52:40

      Comment: cornbrain; Is brainwashed corndog & Bald faced stupid head.

      I built a still and converted my car to ethanol in 1982. I have the research and the data

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 2:18:27 PM

    Comment: Daniels Gross lies:

    1) poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power???

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    War ends We win: when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC.

    The ethanol investors do not build ethanol distilleries because monopoly OPEC would lower the price to rust out their billion dollar million barrel a day ethanol still. Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: Yes, All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 2:10:44 PM

    Comment: Daniels Gross lies:

    1) poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power???

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC.

    The ethanol investors do not build ethanol distilleries because monopoly OPEC would lower the price to rust out their billion dollar million barrel a day ethanol still. Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: sylink @ 05/09/2008 10:45:34 AM

    Comment: The buck passing will not solve the energy crisis. Greed is at the root of it all. It is high time everyone reorders its priority.

  • Posted By: jjp735i @ 05/09/2008 8:17:11 AM

    Comment: It's a scam. Prices for corn and other things are rising and the news reports place the blame on ethanol. You know, that cheap fuel replacement for gas that you can not find and when,if you are lucky enough to find it, the cost for ethanol is almost as much as the price of gas.

    So if all this corn is going towards ethanol were is the ethanol and why does it cost almost as much as gas?

  • Posted By: 15R8 @ 05/09/2008 7:19:16 AM

    Comment: The Bamma -Hillster Team will figure it out.
    Gone will be the days of oilmen running the whitehouse,and the country into ruin.

  • Posted By: getzel @ 05/09/2008 6:59:31 AM

    Comment: Daniels Gross lies:

    1) poor consumers in Mumbai, the other newsweek article, The Post-American World By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
    May 12, 2008 Issue
    says India is the new world power???

    2) On topics about which Daniels Gross lies knows nothing/zero: it is better not to write:

    USE CELLULOSE TO MAKE ETHANOL, NOT CORN: STUPID.

    3) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    We fund the war against the USA every day at the gas pump. Stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; The gas stations in Brazil can fill the tanks with ethanol, no gasoline.

    Archer Daniel Midland made millions in the USA selling $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s;

    That trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    Cellulose Ethanol energy independence in the USA, will balance the trade deficit, create full employment, bring down the price of fuel, break the monopoly on the pricing of fuel, balance the USA government budget, create less pollution, make the USA energy independent, and end the war because we will stop funding the bad guys everyday at the gas pumps.

    With all the cars running on ethanol; the price of oil will collapse and the radical Moslem hordes will no longer have the funds we used to give them from gasoline sales to finance the war against us.

    4) Daniels Gross lies by omission:

    when we pass a law that makes the minimum price of gasoline at the pumps: $1.75/gallon; billion dollar/million barrel per day ethanol stills will not be built without protection from OPEC monopoly pricing rusting out our new stills. Stills being built now are a result of congressional ethanol fuel mandates for clean air purposes: The new stills have contracts to sell there output before the still can be built and financed to protect from monopoly OPEC.

    The ethanol investors do not build ethanol distilleries because monopoly OPEC would lower the price to rust out their billion dollar million barrel a day ethanol still. Brazil is energy independent: ethanol; All their cars come built running on ethanol; Archer Daniel Midland made millions on $1.00 gallon ethanol in the 1990s; that trumps any canard/invalid objection to ethanol. Use Cellulose ethanol, not corn ethanol.

    5) Daniels Gross outright lies: All cars can run on ethanol.

    I built a distillery and converted my GM car to 160 proof ethanol by 1982; and tried 25 years to get the USA off of gasoline.

    6) Writers should post their certification on the subject they are writing on at the beginning of the article; that would leave the papers and news posts mostly blank pages.

    Intelligence analyst: Getzel

  • Posted By: JGBellHimself @ 05/09/2008 5:19:36 AM

    Comment: The use of corn for ethanol is insane.
    Corn is not even close to being the best source material for making enthanol.
    Using any one of a number of better non-food sources would be less expensive, less human food competitive, and more productive than corn, or soy beans.

  • Posted By: Rational Poster @ 05/09/2008 12:36:21 AM

    Comment: Let's learn from this. Two years ago, everyone ran to the same side of the boat (with the exception of the livestock producers and realted organizations). Politicians, greenies, corn growers - nearly everyone jumped on the ethanol bandwagon and it was not PC to raise any of the concerns posted on this board - even though many of the "unintended consequences" were predictable.

    We need more debate and less government. The free market will work. No more subsidies.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 10:52:00 PM

    Comment: Politics and oil mix just about as good as cold water and oil. A lot of hot political potatoes have been pitched from hand to hand by office holders who don't want to lose votes by allowing gasoline production in their territory where the votes come from. That's not the whole problem, but it helps. We all really want a lot of cheap fuel that is piped from a long way off. It's sort of like the sewage disposal plant, not a bad comparison. You want that stuff to go a long way off when you flush, so to speak. A whole lot of things go into our present dilemma. Whoever has the refineries now is just stuck with them. Give ethanol a little time, have a couple of distillery fires, and she starts all over again. Forgot to mention what happens to the sludge left over from the distillation. Oh, well.

    • Posted By: Integrity1st @ 05/09/2008 22:06:26

      Comment: What happens to the sluge left over ? That my friend if you have been paying attention can be turned into fertlizers to replenish the land and top soils . Do your home work .

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 10:42:21 PM

    Comment: Thank you Chris Paris. I bet that you and I could work this out if we just put our minds to it.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 10:39:17 PM

    Comment: Maybe is silly to propose cars propelled by rubber bands, but it's a start in the right direction. If you set up a windmill to wind the rubber bands up and the car doesn't go far enough, then maybe we can do something else with the windmill. Thomas Edison used to do stuff like this. He said that most of what he tried didn't work, but the stuff that did made it all worth while. Sorry that I did most of the talking, but had a little spare time and really enjoyed it. Good luck to you all.

  • Posted By: Chris Paris @ 05/08/2008 10:36:44 PM

    Comment: The ethanol industry is not the villian. It is just a business. Olderwiser was close to the target with his statement that the lack of refining capacity was the more pressing problem. The ethanol market potential is closely linked to the purchases of automoble fuel, and as the price of this fuel increases people are inclined to buy less. This has suppressed growth in demand for gas, and has suppressed the growth in demand for ethanol. That has upset a lot of business models, and contributed to a glut in ethanol. And because of that, the producers of ethanol are caught in a bind.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 10:34:26 PM

    Comment: The great bounty of cheap crude has made us all lazy. It has dulled out creative brains. Reminds me of Spain and the new world gold. Spain had most of the world's gold. Didn't make them prosperous. They went broke from prosperity. That's us and crude oil. The countries that had to dig prosperity out of the rock and soil prospered. Crude oil has made its present owners lazy, as well. They don't work any more, don't think, don't invent anything, don't produce anything. They already have money and don't need to. When the wells go dry, they will just sit there stunned out of all those comforts.
    We need this shortage now to shock us back into production. The party's over. It's thinking caps now and hard labor. We'll all be stronger. The cheap ride is over.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 10:25:04 PM

    Comment: You can't build refineries any more. Nobody wants them. They stink and blow up and pollute the vicinity. We are so populated now that there is just not enough room to build these where they are approved. It's the refining capacity, cousins, the refining capacity, that creates the shortage of gasoline that makes the prices go up. Everybody who wants to live near a refinery, stand up and holler. And the room got quiet.

  • Posted By: kas_wolf @ 05/08/2008 10:24:44 PM

    Comment: Corn ethanol is not worth it. It takes 1.3 units of energy to make 1 unit of energy. That makes no sense as you are "producing" a negative gain. Brazil's sugar ethanol is a totally different story. You get 8 units for every 1 unit used - a net gain of 7 units. We could grow some sugarcane and produce some ethanol. However, I think we are focusing on the wrong thing.

    Just like diets, I think there are a number of fuel alternatives that will work for different countries. Brazil has its sugarcane. The US has the greatest coal reserves of any country in the world. With coal gasification and CO2 capture and reuse (it can keep the CO2 contained and use it to force more oil from existing wells) we can be energy independent in less than 10 years. Less than 10 years!!! Add to that mix nuclear power for electricity - and battery powered rechargeable gas/electric or diesel eletric vehicles, and energy is a worry of the past.

    Let's elect officials who can open their minds, see the light and have the spine or cajones to push into action.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 10:21:35 PM

    Comment: Crude oil is a worldwide market. Refinement of that oil is spotty and inadequate to supply the need for gasoline. If we produce more oil, it simply goes into the world market. It doesn't cheapen it for us. If the worldwide price is 124 dollars per barrel, we don't give ourselves a discount if we produce it. If we don't refine enough of it to lower the price of gasoline, remember supply and demand, then it will remain high no matter how much we produce.
    The fallacy that we can be independent of foreign oil is atrocious. We also need to be independent of domestic oil. They both cost the same, for God's sake.
    When you wake up to this, then you will finally see the wisdom of my car propelled by rubber bands.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 10:15:13 PM

    Comment: Our old country has been going downhill in recent years, but that's another story, not fit for a fuel discussion.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 10:14:14 PM

    Comment: Gravity is also a great way to travel. Downhill. No fuel. But, since we can't own gravity, I wouldn't recommend research on this as a way to get around. We should be able to own it, but there is just no market for it.

  • Posted By: RHO2784610 @ 05/08/2008 10:12:57 PM

    Comment: The problem with all this energy stuff is that we're supposed to be capitalists. If we let the system work, everything would come out okay in the long run. What messes it all up is the messing around with the whole works with tax subsidies for ethanol, regulatory meddling with oil exploration, lack of a Justice Dept. to keep monopolies from exploiting the consumer, and the shameless political pandering. We are currently pretending that there is a shortage of oil. There is no shortage. There is plenty of oil for the foreseeable future. The oil companies are even playing that card now to keep prices pumped up. There is a lack of political will to buck the populist sentiment against oil. We can and should be aggressively developing new energy strategies, but in the near term we should be using our plentiful oil resources to depress prices. It is a fantasy to pretend the world is running out of oil in the near future. In the interest of informed consent we need to be honest. If the electorate wants to move away from oil for whatever reason, then okay, but let's not lie about the reasons. It is galling to hear all this complaining about high gas and oil prices from the very people who brought it all upon us. The people yelling the loudest are the ones who throw fits over any new oil production. They either don't understand or don't believe in supply and demand. It simply isn't possible to conserve enough to make a substantial difference in prices in a world market that is demanding much more new oil production than we can possibly provide through conservation.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 10:11:17 PM

    Comment: The right people used to own oil. Now the wrong people own oil. Down with oil. The right people own corn. That's us. Up with corn. I have always liked Brazil. I think that they are right people and that they deserve sugar cane. Up with sugar cane. I think that we should buy up all of the rubber forests and own all of the rubber bands. We should make all of the cars again. Then we could be the good and right guys who sell transportation from top to bottom, to the whole world. Because, after all, we are deserving people.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 10:04:41 PM

    Comment: We have a nice place to grow sugar cane. New Orleans. It used to be a city, but it has been mostly abandoned. The soil and climate are perfect for sugar cane. I think that we should bridge the gap between crude oil and rubber bank power with the flex fuel that gravellake illustrates. When we get the rubber bands going, then we can rebuild New Orleans.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 9:59:23 PM

    Comment: We can beat government and special interests with rubber band powered autos. They can't touch us. The ethanol apologists will all come aboard, too. Oil is crude. Rubber band power is refined. Down with crude. Up with refined.

  • Posted By: misterharban @ 05/08/2008 8:12:35 PM

    Comment: Ethanol is just one more case of government and special interests wanting to pick the winners without making a reasonable stab at understanding the full impacts of their selection. Early questions about the energy balance of corn ethanol production were brushed off by advocates who drew the boundary for the analysis too closely. Further questions about the carbon balance drew the boundary around the car, not around the entire environment. In fact it is likely that when the analysis takes into account the world wide impact of corn ethanol, that the corn ethanol produces more atmospheric carbon than crude oil to gasoline. Of course the USDA and its corporate sponsors dismissed the economic impacts of corn ethanol as insignificant. And the ultimate irony of the current corn for fuel versus corn for food debate is that ethanol apologists suggest that it is an Australian drought, not fuel conversion which is accounting for high food costs. What form will their explanation take when a drought hits Illinois and Indiana and both our stomach and fuel tanks run on empty?

    To the extent that security and environmental problems are causing us to examine our options, it is imperative that the people who come up with truly grand schemes like ethanol do so objectively, not blinded by the apparent brilliance of the ???next great thing.??? Nothing will imperil our ability to make progress in this area more than the failed credibility of the scientists and policy makers who come up with these new ideas. It is likely that by the time the ethanol fiasco plays itself out that the paying public will be substantially more skeptical of the ???next great thing??? proposed after ethanol.

    It is fairly likely that corn ethanol will be a bust. Next time, perhaps a simple but comprehensive effort to objectively address the global economic, environmental and human impacts of the ???next great thing??? would salvage some of the credibility which corn ethanol advocates have squandered.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 8:01:58 PM

    Comment: We already have an investor for these rescue plans. GeorgeMo is an investor. He will be a cinch to invest in our rubber band car because he is also an environmentalist. Naturally, being a consumer, too, we should let him be the first to go to the store in our new invention. The Windmill Bandmobile, Stretch version, for the rubber band, of course. You'll make a fortune GeorgieMo. Trust me.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 7:57:54 PM

    Comment: See, you can wind these rubber bands up with a windmill. You don't have to crank it. We Americans like to do things the easy way. Don't get excited. We are going to work our way out of this.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 7:55:54 PM

    Comment: We've neglected rubber bands, too. There is a lot of propulsion in rubber bands. I used to fly balsa airplanes with rubber bands when I was a boy. You could get to the corner store and back with a rubber band powered car if someone would make one big enough. Just wind 'er up and cut 'er loose. Get a quart of milk and a loaf of bread and go back home. If you have a hill, you can even coast in one direction. Gravity, another good propulsion system. I'll be back with some more later.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 05/08/2008 7:51:04 PM

    Comment: You can put a coin in some coffee machines and the machine will grind the coffee beans fresh, boil the water and spurt a cup of coffee for you to drink. I want a car that makes fuel out of corn. I will plant my own in the yard, shell it out and put it in the hopper, after which it grinds the corn, ferments it, distills the fuel, and then turns on the green light which says "start her up and go". We'll sit around and let Japan invent this, I guess, if things go as they have in the past. We don't invent things any more in this country. Just sit around and invest ever cheapening dollars in commodities that people eat, and keep selling them back and forth to each other until a hungry person can't afford to eat it. We're still all too fat. If we ate less, there would be more corn for the new car that Japan will invent while we watch our investments. Be patient. I'll sit here and think up some more ideas to get us out of this fuel mess. We can do it.

  • Posted By: GeorgeMo @ 05/08/2008 7:33:30 PM

    Comment: Wow. It looks like nutjobs are taking over the comments section.

    As an environmentalist, an investor, and a consumer, I found this article well written and the reasoning was persuasive. With all of the fidiots yelling at Congress to "do something," it's a good idea to take some perspective on Ethanol. It's here to stay, and the market is at work weeding out weak/unlucky companies. Demanding long term policy changes in response to short term conditions is populism at its worst.

  • Posted By: GeorgeMo @ 05/08/2008 7:32:58 PM

    Comment: Wow. It looks like nutjobs are taking over the comments section.

    As an environmentalist, an investor, and a consumer, I found this article well written and the reasoning was persuasive. With all of the fidiots yelling at Congress to "do something," it's a good idea to take some perspective on Ethanol. It's here to stay, and the market is at work weeding out weak/unlucky companies. Demanding long term policy changes in response to short term conditions is populism at its worst.

  • Posted By: smokey_joe @ 05/08/2008 6:16:10 PM

    Comment: Daniel Gross is stirring a witch's caldron of misinformation. Many economists now say that the rising cost of food commodities has much more to do with the rising price of oil, ferilizers produced from oil, crops harvested with harvesting machines running on gasoline and crops transported to market on trucks fueled with oil. He mentions consumers in Mumbai/Bombay, India suffering as a result of American corn diverted to ethanol, but never offers to describe how such a stretched and tortured reasoning came to that conclusion. He also never mentions that a large and growing percentage of American ethanol is produced without food products from biomass source materials such as wood, switchgrass, old tires and garbage. Could it be that Daniel Gross is functioning as mouthpiece for the oil lobby which is trying very hard to maintain a low profile in this period of ever-rising prices at the gas pump? I think he is one of those who would like the American people to feel powerless, impotent and without hope so that big oil can continue to rake in ever-higher profits and say "Its not our fault. We just don't have any competition." Daniel Gross also never mentions the fuel from coal alternative which the governor of Montana is practically begging the American people to try at $1.00 per gallon and which would last for at least 200 years or until something better comes along. There are multiple solutions to the current oil price runup, if only the oil industry and its sleezy salesmen would stop blocking the path to progress.

  • Posted By: NateBob @ 05/08/2008 5:48:17 PM

    Comment: Burning food for energy? Can you spell S-T-U-P-I-D ???

  • Posted By: rharper609 @ 05/08/2008 5:42:26 PM

    Comment: Why are you or anyone else so worried about the gross margin of ethanol producers? If they cannot survive they will parish, then you can have all the corn you want. Ethanol is a VERY good fuel substitute/additive and replaced MTBE, the carcinogen. As for me, I have a patent pending process to produce ethanol from dairy cow manure, I can wait, but in the mean time quit bad mouthing ethanol or find a barstool and have a drink.

  • Posted By: BrianOl @ 05/08/2008 4:44:40 PM

    Comment: To the readers out there and to Daniel Gross who want and need to know more. Read Business Week's report: Is ethanol getting a bum wrap? In the May 2008 issue. Good article which discuss the good and the bad with reports and studies to substantiate.

  • Posted By: DDGUY @ 05/08/2008 4:42:37 PM

    Comment: Ethanol is a VERY poor fuel additive. 1) it is worse for the enviroment than gasoline. 2) it takes way food therefore it raises food prices. 3) Algae is the only sensible way to go. You get between 20 & 30 gallons of ethanol per acre of corn. They are now getting MANY thousands of gallons (one company claiming 100,000) of ethanol from Algae. Corn ethanol was strictly a political decision because Corporate America runs this country. End of story!!!!

  • Posted By: BrianOl @ 05/08/2008 4:40:02 PM

    Comment: To the readers out there and to Daniel Gross I suggest reading Business Week's report: Is ethanol getting a bum wrap? From their May 2008 issue. It gives facts and not just ethanol blaming jargon about using corn for ethanol.

  • Posted By: FirstZebra @ 05/08/2008 3:44:41 PM

    Comment: tO HELL WITH THE AUTOMIBLES!
    Let's drink the stuff.

  • Posted By: FirstZebra @ 05/08/2008 3:43:35 PM

    Comment: Screw the automobiles....Let's drink the stuff instead!!!

  • Posted By: RetiredMarine @ 05/08/2008 3:35:38 PM

    Comment: Ethonol is more than a joke. What kind of civilization grows FOOD for FUEL rather than for feeding the people? Sorry, but the environmental extremists are nothing but complete idiots. Clean fuel would be nice, but not at the price of HUNGER.

  • Posted By: klpaz @ 05/08/2008 3:06:32 PM

    Comment: get off oil at almost any cost - go E-85

  • Posted By: Krallski @ 05/08/2008 2:52:48 PM

    Comment: Ethanol is a joke. I want cleaner fuels and to protect the environment, but it seems that many environmentalists don't understand the "energy to make versus energy produced" ratio, not to mention the effect on food prices and developing countries. Not every new fuel source is economically viable at this time.

  • Posted By: heywhoah @ 05/08/2008 2:34:11 PM

    Comment: Missing from this article is a mention of how rising oil prices have made artificial fertilizer (and other farm inputs) more expensive, which has contributed to the rising cost of the corn used to produce most ethanol. Also too often missing from the discourse on ethanol in general is the observation that the equivalent of at least 2/3 of a gallon of gasoline is burned to produce each gallon of corn-based ethanol. Turning corn into ethanol does pathetically little to reduce our carbon emissions or dependence on foreign oil.

    • Posted By: gravellake @ 05/08/2008 21:12:49

      Comment: I live in Brazil and we make it from sugar cane. The yield from sugar cane is 8 times that of corn. Brazil automobiles have flex fuel. My Ford, a profitable co. in Brazil, can burn pure alcohol, pure gasoline, or any combination thereof. Flex-fuel technology is available here, but not in the U.S. Why? Big Ag and Big Oil, or lack of leadership? Brazil automobiles consume more alcohol than gasoline nationwide and we don´t have Chavez and Ahbejihad pointing a gun at our head. The U.S. taxes ethanol imports from Brazil in order to prop up ag interests and protect votes. The U.S. does not tax Iranian or Venezuelan oil imports. Oh yeah, down here, you need to speak the language (portuguese) to get a drivers license.

 
 
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