Hillary, You Didn’t Win. Now Don’t Whine

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  • Posted By: ChrisLPNM @ 06/01/2008 7:30:14 PM

    SIMONANUNHAPPYDEM - I respect your viewpoint but I have to disagree. Their are rules to the nominating process - I don't necessary agree with them all (for example, I don't understand why Iowa always gets to go first - to be fair I think it should be rotated - and I don't particularly care for caccuses) - but they are the rules. No one objected to them at the start of the nomination process. They should be followed. Everything I read says that coming out of Tuesday's primaries, Obama will not have enough delegates to take the nomination - he will still need about 30 to 40 Superdelegates to pledge for him. If they don't, then my all means, take it to the convention. But if they do, then the nominating process is over the Clinton should graciously conceed. If she doesn't and takes it all the way to the convention, her arguments are going to boil down to changing the rules so she can win. That is what the whole "popular vote" argument really is - an argument to change the rules. Neither party selects nominees by the popular vote. We don't even select the President that way - I wish we did, because then we never would have had Bush in office, but today we don't. You can't change the rules midstream. Perhaps there should be some changes next time around, but you have to live by them the way they are this time. If Obama gets enough delegates before the convention, but Clinton holds out to the convention and basically lobbies for a change in the rules so that she can be the nominee - I just don't see how that can be healthy for the party. And unlike you, I think Obama can win - if we can heal the party in time.

    • Posted By: simonanunhappydem @ 06/01/2008 7:44:04 PM

      Chris, we agree on a lot of things, and I am glad to see that. I am no fan of some of the rules, but the real rules need to be obeyed by everyone. However, contrary to most Obama commenters??? opinion there was no rule that said that the candidates should take off their names from the Michigan ballots. There was a recommendation from the DNC, and you do not have to be a lawyer to understand that this is a big difference.
      Some rules are crazy: like penalizing one of the largest state, Florida for a voting date that they (the democrats) has no way to control. And I could have agreed with you on the importance of the popular vote. But, I can not because Obama and his supporters regularly used this argument when they were behind in the delegate count, saying that the delegates can not overturn the will of the people, expressed by the popular vote. I can live with a lot of things but not this kind of hypocrisy. Finally if we agree that we have to stick with the rules then: the rules say that the delegates are counted at the convention and they can change their votes till the votes are counted at the convention. Hence, pledged delegates are meaningless. Counted votes at the convention is the only measure. Interestingly no-one yells at Ron Paul on the republican side to pull out of the race, because he has no chance of winning the nomination. Are the republicans in this sense more democratic than the Democrats?

      • Posted By: summer1216 @ 06/01/2008 8:55:48 PM

        No one yells at Ron Paul to concede the race because he cannot tear his party apart by continuing to run. It has nothing to do with the Republicans being more democratic that the Democrats.

      • Posted By: ChrisLPNM @ 06/01/2008 8:53:22 PM

        I am afraid we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I have to stand by my original post.

    • Posted By: ChrisLPNM @ 06/01/2008 7:36:16 PM

      And by the way - for what it's worth, I don't agree with HDavidson's response to your comment. You are entitled to your opinion. If more people on both sides looked at it this way, we wouldn't be going into the general election as divided as we are.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/01/2008 8:25:24 PM

    I did listen to a few FDR fireside chats and listen to Gabriel Heater and Walter Winchell with their latest on where the troops were in Europe. I tracked the troops in the news every day. Those arrows that they used to show where the penetration of enemy lines were made. And the agony of the Battle of the Bulge. Joe Louis fights on the radio. The worst debacle was Tami Mauriello, the cripple that he mercifully put away immediately.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/01/2008 8:21:32 PM

    It's a deal, simonanunhappydem, and I knew that you didn't mean that you were. The years are kind to us.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/01/2008 8:16:03 PM

    Looking back, if Hillary had Obama's campaign people, she might have smothered all the opposition. A lot of extremely competent things were done, but by far the system for collecting campaign donations has to go down in history as one of the smartest ever. That's not the whole picture, but it has to stand out as the most significant factor. Notice her plea for donations in Puerto Rico. She's in a heap of debt.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/01/2008 7:57:07 PM

    There is something that we might be missing in the manner in which these two candidates have attacked each other. A good part of the political game is much akin to the popular wrestling shows where the combatants pick each other up and throw one another to the floor, appear to stomp one another in the face, and gouge each other's eyes out. Then, they are seen later leaving out the back door after the crowd has gone home laughing and patting each other on the back, and counting their money on the way to a bar for a friendly drink. Also noticeable is that there is not a bruise to be seen on either one, unless inflicted by accident in the scuffle for pay.
    Meantime, the crowd gets all heated up and is ready to really hurt each other over what looks really serious in the ring.
    This is how politics is done, and it is also why a great number of politicians who formerly tried to slander each other to death become the best of friends on bills that need to be passed and work that needs to be done after all the noise subsides.
    Mc Cain, by the way is one of the exceptions to this scenario, and he is well known to fly off of the handle at the slightest excuse, and he has made some dedicated enemies along the way with his unforgiving ways. He is really unfit to be president.
    The big job looms.

  • Posted By: simonanunhappydem @ 06/01/2008 7:52:12 PM

    Hi olderwiser, I am not sure which one of us is older, or wiser for that matter, but I hope that you are right! If we are victorious in November we can celebrate together the end of a painful era. By the way with a 2:1+ victory in Puerto Rico Clinton is ahead by about 300,000 votes. Bush supposedly won in 2000 by 200 votes or so.

  • Posted By: Star123 @ 06/01/2008 2:13:22 PM

    I gather you are for Junior. What happened to Newsweek--it is so biased now...I have subscribed for decades and am considering dropping it. Obviously someone wins, someone loses. But believe me, Hillary had plenty of help losing! Plenty of help! Including Newsweek.

    • Posted By: HDavidson @ 06/01/2008 2:53:46 PM

      It only SEEMS like "bias" when you're candidate is losing. The only "help" Hillary has had losing is HILLARY (and Bill of ocurse). Not race, not gender, not FL/MI (as they are now included according to the rules established prior to anybody even running), none of it. JUST HER MOUTH, HER ATTITUDE, even after FL/MI were MERCIFULLY reinstated (though penialized in accordance to the rules) Hillary still wants to carry on, and her "supporters" were like a bunch of childish republicans at the hearing yesterday, what a shame. her "supporters" on the commity kept trying to make political statements instead of just cunducting a hearing, it was embarrassing.

      You got what you wanted, even though it was according to the RULES, we are NOT Republicans, RULES DO MATTER HERE!!! So stop whining and believing that Obama had anything to do with any of this and let's join together and kick the SH!T out of the repugs from now until, well from now on...

      • Posted By: simonanunhappydem @ 06/01/2008 6:48:35 PM

        HDavidson, you know the saying: if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Anyone who pays attention can see the media's bias toward Obama. Clinton practically disappeared from the news in the last 2-3 weeks. The sad thing that the so-called left leaning media (which is of course a myth) and the ultra right republicans (Fox and friends) for different reasons all openly and unabashedly support Obama. Any thinking democrat should stop and ponder what does this collusion mean? They all want to ram a loser democratic nominee down our throat. And they are succeeding. We will have a huge buyer???s remorse come November, but as we all learned in 2000 there is no return policy in these elections. Once we made our mistake we will have to live with it for 4-8 years. Our only rational choice is Hillary Clinton for this election.

        • Posted By: HDavidson @ 06/01/2008 7:48:54 PM

          First of all they did her a favor keeping her and her hubby out of the media for a while, how many times can one hear "I winning" when she's is was and has not? Secoond, funny but as an Obama supporter I find the media to be giving her every chance they can, I find it annoying.
          The rest of your post sound like ROVE who Hillary has been quoting BTW.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/01/2008 7:40:42 PM

    Simonanunhappydem, I can guarantee you that you will be simonanecstaticdem after the November election.

  • Posted By: Rocheux @ 06/01/2008 2:58:45 PM

    Yesterday I watched Obama live on that vicious Fox News Channel, the only one to carry Obama's announcement of his resignation from that Church of Hate in Chicago. "Brilliant," said the last poster. I don't think so. As a student of the human mind I am here to tell you otherwise. He stumbled and hesitated and used the word, "uh," to make noise while he tried to assemble one thought after another. He'd talk a little bit, then hesitate, say "uh," over and over, and then move another 2 or 3 words out. When Hillary answers a question she adds, "and I'll tell you how it works," or "....why it is so." She's the brilliant one. How is it we want to be so trendy we go for a man who does not have nearly the time in the Washington Political arena....why
    did we choose Obama over Edwards, Biden, Dodd, Richardson???? It certainly was not because none of those men were less qualified than Obama--they were MORE qualified. It's the race card, I am sad to say. I think America is sick of old white men running the country. Well that's just a guess, but it's my best gu((this site is a mess and I am not sure my whole message will get thru))ess. If Obama is
    the Dem choice for November, then he gets my vote and I will accept him as my commander-in-chief without whining and complaining, but he was clearly not the most qualified when compared to H. Clinton, Edwards Biden, and the rest I just mentioned---even Gore or Kerry would've been better--but Gore & Kerry were too weak to fight when they were lambasted by the Republican smear campaign, which is very, very effective and still in operation, but good, sending email lies about Obama....just go to snopes.com and put in Obama's name and look at the lies. We don''t need to lie about McCain, the truth about this horrid man is enough. No lie could be worse. Well, God bless America anyway, huh?



    • Posted By: EKS25 @ 06/01/2008 7:37:40 PM

      I agree. Can you imagine the GOP ads with Pfleger and Wright anti-white and antisemitic video-clips with subtitles ???Obama's long time close friend and he gave $200,000 earmark to his church??? as opposed to McCain not asking for earmarks?
      They are going to destroy him.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/01/2008 7:37:24 PM

    Keep your eye upon the donut and not upon the hole.

  • Posted By: ChrisLPNM @ 06/01/2008 6:30:51 PM

    I think this is a very insightful article. I think everyone needs to take a step away from the cliff and take some time to reflect. The Obama supporters need to stop and think how they would be feeling right now if Clinton was about to clinch the nomination by a very small margin. Don't you think you might be just a little angry right now, and perhaps a little bitter. There is nothing wrong with those feelings, especially when the race was so close. You need to give people time to vent and get over their anger - and they can't do that if they keep getting poked by Obama supporters.

    And the Clinton supporters need to realize that after Tuesday the race is over. Continuing on to the convention will only widen the divide in the party. Yes, you can vent and take time to get over your anger and disappointment. Then you really need to stop and reflect what it will mean to have McCain in the White House. The simple thought that whoever becomes President will probably get to nominate two Supreme Court Justices should frighten you to your very core - and it has implications far beyond the next four years. You'll come to realize that it is in your best interests to vote for Obama. Yes, I know it will be hard. I am sure you will always feel that Clinton was the better choice, but hopefully you will eventually realize that McCain and the Republican Party will do far more damage to the things that you care about.

    • Posted By: simonanunhappydem @ 06/01/2008 7:14:18 PM

      Great comment. If the Obama supporters were mostly similar to you I would have a much easier time to vote for Obama. Although I believe that he is totally unqualified, I agree that our first priority should be to win in November. Hence if he becomes our nominee I will vote for him. However, I am having two problems. One, the tone, lack of civility and dishonesty of a large section of Obama supporters puts me and many other democrats off. We all wonder whether we want to belong to the same party. Second, regretfully, I am convinced that Obama, if he becomes our nominee, will lose, even if I and many other Clinton supporters vote for him. He has more vulnerabilities than I would have room here to list, all of which will be amply used by the republican machine. As a consequence I believe that Clinton should go to the convention and make her case with the delegates, super and otherwise. I hope that they will listen and make the best decision for our party, which is not Obama. They have the right, and indeed the duty, to do so. Hence, forcing Clinton out of the race before the convention is the wrong thing to do. Not to mention it is utterly undemocratic.

      • Posted By: ChrisLPNM @ 06/01/2008 7:37:21 PM

        I respect your viewpoint but I have to disagree. Their are rules to the nominating process - I don't necessary agree with them all (for example, I don't understand why Iowa always gets to go first - to be fair I think it should be rotated - and I don't particularly care for caccuses) - but they are the rules. No one objected to them at the start of the nomination process. They should be followed. Everything I read says that coming out of Tuesday's primaries, Obama will not have enough delegates to take the nomination - he will still need about 30 to 40 Superdelegates to pledge for him. If they don't, then my all means, take it to the convention. But if they do, then the nominating process is over the Clinton should graciously conceed. If she doesn't and takes it all the way to the convention, her arguments are going to boil down to changing the rules so she can win. That is what the whole "popular vote" argument really is - an argument to change the rules. Neither party selects nominees by the popular vote. We don't even select the President that way - I wish we did, because then we never would have had Bush in office, but today we don't. You can't change the rules midstream. Perhaps there should be some changes next time around, but you have to live by them the way they are this time. If Obama gets enough delegates before the convention, but Clinton holds out to the convention and basically lobbies for a change in the rules so that she can be the nominee - I just don't see how that can be healthy for the party. And unlike you, I think Obama can win - if we can heal the party in time.

      • Posted By: HDavidson @ 06/01/2008 7:29:55 PM

        Hey "simon" stick to American Idol and leave the American Presidency to the adults ;)

        Please, by all means list all those Obama issues, and I will list wll the McCain issues, we can compare and contrast, as Hillary has NOT been an issue for some time now, no need to speak ill of those passed.

        I'll await your "list"

    • Posted By: dreffein @ 06/01/2008 6:42:16 PM

      Great approach. I hope the rest of the Obama supporters follow your lead.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/01/2008 7:31:35 PM

    We can argue all day about who wounded whom the most and never agree. But the reality of it is that all of the wounds will heal and the surviving body will be twice as strong and wise for it all. The Republicans have been sitting back and laughing while thinking that we are destroying ourselves when in fact we are just getting in shape while they sit and laugh in the shade. We now have all the moves and they have all of the worries. Just watch.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/01/2008 7:08:19 PM

    The argument will be over Wednesday. We will all be friends Thursday. There is rot in the White House. The Supreme Court is practically packed with rightists. It will take a strong Congress and President to start disinfecting the place.

    • Posted By: simonanunhappydem @ 06/01/2008 7:27:18 PM

      I believe we all agree on what needs to happen in November to fix our country. The disagreement is on how to do it and who can do it. I hope we all can be friends after this is over at the convention. Although it will be very difficult after the divisive campaign that Obama has run.

    • Posted By: EKS25 @ 06/01/2008 7:15:16 PM

      Unfortunately you are way too optimistic..would be nice but it will take a lot longer too heal if it happens at all.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/01/2008 7:27:06 PM

    She can't afford to shoot a hole in the boat because if she does, then she sinks with it. It's politics. She's a Clinton and knows politics. She's made friends with and worked well with people who voted to impeach her husband. Watch her. She's a pro. An asset to her party, and worthy of the compliment by far.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/01/2008 7:20:38 PM

    Democrats are not afraid to air their grievances against each other in public. It is truly the party of the people. Once we unite this summer, though, the Republicans had better step aside. Most all of this anger, bile and retribution that we have been heaping on each other in support of our favorite candidate will suddenly turn against the Mc Cain campaign.
    Whether he deserves it or not, Mc Cain is about to find out how we feel about the stolen presidency of 2000 and the unprecedented low down and dirty campaigning either by or endorsed by the Republicans in 2004. We have witnessed our government now for two terms start unjust war by deliberate misrepresentation, rape our treasury, and tiptoe dangerously into the vicinity of actual war crimes.
    They need to see this country rare up and not just vote them out, but do so uproariously with an unheralded majority vote. We can't take a chance on this ever happening again.

  • Posted By: simonanunhappydem @ 06/01/2008 1:14:12 PM

    The only thing I agree with Ms. Clift is that the Clinton campaign made a crucial mistake in not seriously competing in the caucus states.
    However, if Clinton is denied the nomination it will be fundamentally not because of this mistake but because the Obama camp, with the active help of the media, used the race card in a very clever but, to me, disgusting way: every one who argued against anything Obama said or did was branded a racist. Not by the candidate, of course, he is smarter than that, but by his advisers, his camp, and by his media minions and hangers on. It is practically impossible to fight against this dishonest tactic in an honorable and clean way, and Hillary decided to ignore it instead of fighting it head on, calling a spade a spade. However, being honest does not always work, and if Clinton looses the nomination she will learn what Dukakis has learned before him, that you can not fight a swift-boating tactic by trying to ignore it. The sad thing is that in this case the swift-boating was done by one democrat, Obama, against another democrat, Clinton. The common element in the two events is that the media was totally complicit in both instances. Obama and his campaign will not get away with this same sleazy tactic in the presidential campaign against McCain. I am still hoping that the super delegates of the Democratic party are smart enough to see through what happened in this campaign and nominate Clinton, because she is the only democrat who can win against McCain. I hope that this is the only thing on their minds when making their decision. Just a side note: a couple of weeks ago, when Obama did not yet have the delegate lead that he has now, his argument, parroted by the media echo chamber, was that the super delegates can not ignore the popular vote, can not overturn the will of the people. Now, that Clinton leads in the popular vote, this argument became somehow forgotten. It seems that if Clinton wins the popular vote the super delegates are pressured to overturn the will of the people in order to anoint your favorite candidate. How convenient!

    • Posted By: joe_mama @ 06/01/2008 1:39:20 PM

      You're not a racist because you won't vote for Obama. You're a racist becuase you won't vote for ANY person of color. You admitted it in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Kentucky (check the exit polls if you don't believe me). This is why it is so difficult for Blacks of my generation to convince Blacks of Reverend Wright's generation that things have changed....

      ...or so we would like to believe.

      • Posted By: EKS25 @ 06/01/2008 7:07:37 PM

        You are right, but remember the 16 % or so said race played a roll, they didn't say they would never vote for a person of color. Actually I think if Powell decided to run he would have won with a landslide.
        The anti-white and antisemitic comments of Obama???s close longtime friends, mentors etc make him not too palatable.
        The earmarks and other hundred million dollars what he got for Wright and Pfleger are very questionable too.

  • Posted By: mseic @ 06/01/2008 2:01:38 PM

    Hillary Clinton has lost, just be a decent loser, and support Obama and lets move on to win in November!

    • Posted By: NeverSurrender @ 06/01/2008 6:56:54 PM

      It isn't over until the lady in the pantsuit and her supporters say it is. I don't understand the impatience of the media and the Obama supporters. This primary is just getting to be exciting.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/01/2008 1:18:31 PM

    Seeing that she can't be in, she is trying to convince her followers that Obama can't win. Great team player. If you can't be the captain, let the other team win? Great leader.

    • Posted By: simonanunhappydem @ 06/01/2008 6:54:22 PM

      She is not trying, anyone who follows the events knows that Obama can not win. He does not have what it takes in many ways, whether it is experience, bad associations, divisive message (it is not want he says counts but what he and his supporters do which is extremely divisive), etc. The only way we can prevent 8 more years of Bush via McCain is to select Hillary Clinton as our nominee. The delegates have the right and the means to do this, the right thing. I hope that at the end of the day they do not give in to the pressure of the bloggers, media and most of the party establishment and they will do the right thing.

  • Posted By: notroubleatall1963 @ 06/01/2008 1:52:24 PM

    Duh, the reaons the RBC gave Obama a percentage of Clinton's Michigan votes is because he took his name off the ballot and played by the RULES. Clinton did not.

    NOR DID SHE THINK SHE'd NEED FLORIGAN until she started losing to Obama.

    Play the game fair and square and stop agonizing and griping -- you're the losers and you have to suck it up, as they say. Just SUCK IT UP. Let's move on and beat the Republicans.

    • Posted By: simonanunhappydem @ 06/01/2008 6:40:13 PM

      You are factually wrong: there were NO rules saying that any candidate has to take his/her name off the ballot in Michigan. There was a RECOMMENDATION, which Obama followed because he wanted to avoid a painful loss and Hillary did not. There is no RULE that anyone has to follow a recommendation. This debate is heated enough, let???s just stick to the hard facts. Both decisions, Obama???s and Clinton???s, regarding Michigan was motivated by pure and simple political calculation. No rules were broken

  • Posted By: jen1967 @ 05/30/2008 1:13:18 PM

    I am a woman who would have loved to back Hillary but couldn't. Barack is the better leader. He is not identical to her AT ALL! He builds consensus. He's more honest--telling hard truths that are necessary for people to understand in order to move forward, he builds consensus, not private clubs that exclude key player like her health care approach. I see him as more wise and honest--not a politicain who calculates constantly. Listen, Hillary is so "experienced" how come she acting so naive when it came to Iraq? She is so arrogant about it she won't apologize. Barack was one of the few who had enough wisdom to know its would be an immoral disaster for all involved and he had the integrity to make the right vote, even when the tide was going in the other direction. That's a leader--that's what we need.

    • Posted By: EKS25 @ 06/01/2008 6:37:09 PM

      Is he honestly anti-white? Or just honestly listening to anti-white and antisemitic rants for 20 years because being a church member had political advantages? and probably Pfleger's who was his close friend too. How come he didn't think of his white relatives then, only when he needed some WWII veterans to talk about?
      He honestly earmarked couple of hundred thousand dollars taxpayer money to both Wright's and Pfleger's church and while he was at it 1 Million to Michelle's hospital, which promptly raised her salary by $200,000. I think we have different definitions of honesty.

    • Posted By: Grassroots1 @ 06/01/2008 5:33:38 AM

      Obama wasn't in Congress at the time of the vote. He gave one speech against the war as an Illinois senator from a very liberal district, that's all. After he was elected, he voted to fund the war every single time. He voted exactly the same as Hillary. With the Democratic party more divided than it's been in history and the hateful blogs we're reading, how do you feel he's built consensus?

    • Posted By: TXoldgeezer @ 05/31/2008 12:43:51 PM

      Really, are you so unbelievably uninformed that you don't know that Obama didnt have a vote on the iraq war? He wasn't is the Senate until January of 2005.

      • Posted By: TXoldgeezer @ 05/31/2008 12:49:05 PM

        Oops. Apologies for the typos.

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