The Mythology of Munich

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  • Posted By: dsmeryage @ 06/14/2008 11:22:10 PM

    An incredibly large piece of history is missing in this article concerning the weakness of John F. Kennedy regarding the overthrow of Batista in Cuba, the rise of Castro, the fiasco at the Bay of Pigs and JFK's obvious lack of negotiating acumen when he met Khruschev in 1961 which is understood by many historians to have been the opening for the establishment of the Berlin Wall. Obama's clear lack of experience and judgement

    • Posted By: Nins @ 06/15/2008 5:13:33 PM

      I lived in Florida during the Cuban Missile Crisis and I think that your assessment of it is completely wrong. Sure, the ground surge was unsuccessful. But JFK's tough-nosed diplomatic negotiations with the USSR kept us out of nuclear war, and kept my family safe.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/15/2008 2:31:13 PM

    Nins, you've picked it clean. Good leaders are not chiseled out of marble to make a certain and only form agreed by everyone to be the perfect picture. They are, instead, like Churchill, who was intellectually capable to understand what happened each day and then adjust his government's path based on acute perception of what was needed at the moment. He stayed awake to the wee hours of morn practicing each move and each speech, rehearsing meticulously to make sure that what was said fit the whole pattern of his policy, making sure that not only his people, but the whole world had a clear and clean picture of what was at stake and what needed to be done. His makeup and demeanor resemble Obama more than any leader that we have had in many decades. Voters need to smarten up, ignore palliative bull and vote for talent.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/15/2008 12:36:54 PM

    Thanks, Nins. Old, yes. The "wiser" only means just a little more than yesterday, not intended to pretend to "Wise", a totally different quality reserved for the very few.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/15/2008 11:39:24 AM

    Meddling is what gets us into trouble. Our power is great, but it is qualified. There are too many in government who would like to use it just because we possess it. When you misuse it, meddling into affairs not crucial to our security, then you dissipate it. It is not just simple cause and effect that is involved. Questions of alliance immediately arise. Alliances should be determined and firmed up well before commencing war. The first Iraq war had just cause and good preparation along with careful efforts to have a large and effective alliance. The world was on our side and Kuwait's side, and General Powell wouldn't take no for an answer concerning an adequate numbers of troops to hit the field.
    The world was on our side after 9/11. Afghanistan was necessary. Then, the meddling began. It made no sense. The bum's rush to war. Our leaders gratuitously insulted allies and ran headlong into a quagmire with "the army that you have, not the army that you would like to have", to quote our Secretary of Defense. What an admission of incompetence and a negligent waste of our power.
    If you think that Chamberlain stained England, I submit that he will stand in history's shadow of the Bush administration which meddled us into an historically scandalous waste of valuable power, ill used, consumptive of valuable resources, and totally unnecessary.
    Bush was never a "uniter" as he claimed early in his campaign for the office, but he will certainly be remembered as a "negligent meddler".

    • Posted By: Nins @ 06/15/2008 12:24:51 PM

      Excelent post. You really are older and wiser.

      I think that you are right that history will be harsh indeed on Geo. W. Bush.

  • Posted By: ravitchn@bellsouth.net @ 06/15/2008 9:30:28 AM

    Learning; from history isn't easy. There is no such thing as clear lessons. The study of history involves the interaction of an intelligent mind with what evidence is useful and available. Simpleminded lessons are easy enough to learn and they are worse than no lessons.

    At Munich the West destroyed Czechoslovakia which could have stopped Hitler with French and Soviet help. By the time :Hitler invaded Poland the Soviets were his temporary allies and the West could do nothing really to help Poland. The lesson here? Too little too late.

  • Posted By: Galasso @ 06/15/2008 4:25:45 AM

    An Iraqi General commented that the biggest mistake Bremer made during the Colation Government in Iraq was to disband the Security Forces - Army and Police. This allowed the Black turban clerics to come out of the mosques and lead armies of idiots. Of course one cannot compare the threat of Islamic fundamentalism to the German Army in the 1940's. The Iranians could never replicate the discipline, organizational skill and battlefield tactics of the German Army in WWII. The threat from the middle east could very likely be worse, however, because it is insidious and can over time the crazies from the middle east can use our own legal structure against us. Obama posits that his diverse background allows him access and credibility to any non-European group in the world and that easy solutions can be found through diplomacy without the steel of the military as part of the interaction. Politicians always use analogies in their speeches that give us an historical example as an overlay for the decisions they will make if elected. Hitler is dredged up in every debate but the current generation(s) of voters has no clue as to the extent of the destruction of WWII. The old veterans rarely even talk about it. It is a bad comparison because leaders have to make decisions in the context of their own time. Obama has no military background but is constantly compared to JFK who saw and lived the war as a young man and also lost a brother. McCain's hardship as a POW will definitely temper his decisions as to how and when to employ the military but Obama will have to heavily rely on advisors if his diplomacy fails or if he is duped and co-opted by some of the gangsters who run third world countries. We can only hope he chooses wisely.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 06/14/2008 10:28:29 PM

    FDR knew exactly how to get us into WWII. He knew exactly how to handle it militarily, to wit: appoint General George C. Marshall to handle it and then get out of his way. Easy now to say a few marines could have done it earlier, but so could the French. Truth is, neither they nor we knew how vulnerable Germany was at the Rhineland at the time, and even if we did, we had no interest there to justify our entry at the time. and also, at the time, we had better sense than to engage in preemptive war, a madness that sets precedence we should never have launched into the future via Iraq. The way that Roosevelt got us into the war caused the whole country to unite as one. Preemptive war puts us where we are today with more and more of us mad as hell for ever getting in to such a mess. It has nothing to do with the left or the right, liberal or conservative. It has to do with intelligent and reflective leadership, and above all, an innate reluctance to enter into war with anybody without just cause and absolute necessity, obvious to every citizen. None of that existed when we went to war with Iraq the second time, led by the worst administration in the history of this country.

    • Posted By: duckpile @ 06/15/2008 1:59:21 AM

      The idea of appointing a General to look into the matter, and getting well out of his way is consistent with what Sun Tsu believed, and put into his treatise "The Art of War." Lyndon Johnson tried to manage the war from the White House, and George W. Bush has repeated the same mistake. G.W. Bush also failed to believe his own intelligence officers who told him that his reasons for declaring war in Iraq were based on his own suppositions, not on fact. This led to blowing the cover of Valery Plame Wilson. Suggested reading: "The March of Folly" by Tuchman, and "The Art of War" by Sun Tsu.

  • Posted By: pramono @ 06/15/2008 12:32:50 AM

    The author lacks any understanding of the Iranian leadership, Ahmadinejad is much worth than Hitler in the following respect: Hitler did not want to commit suicide, his objective was to win. The Iranian religious leadership believes in the shiite religion which states that in order for Ali to come back, the world has to be destroyed, thus they are willing and commited to comit suicide.

    If Obama does not understand that basic difference he can't deal with the threat of Iran. It does not look to me that he has a hint about the severity of the Iranian problem. It is not the people of Iran, most of which are peace loving and object their loeadership. It is the leadership who strongly believes in their faith and destiny.

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