God Bless You, Jimmy Doyle! Your essay really resonated with me. It is a strong voice/testimony for God's working in the lives of GLBT people. I hope you ignore all the trite rehashing of "you should read your scripture" comments below, and listen to the ones who know you read it, know you thought long and hard about it every night, struggled with it, and finally, with God's grace, found peace with it. I thank you for your testimony, your witness. May God continue to richly bless you and your partner. I know God is infinitely proud of you and your partner and your witness for Him. Merry Christmas!
MY TURN
Let Me Worship as I Am
From a young age I felt called to Christ. But as a gay man, I took a long time to find my spiritual home.
From the magazine issue dated Jun 23, 2008
Member Comments
-
Posted By: Bearnabas @ 12/25/2008 6:12:09 PM
-
Posted By: Chalmetia-Man @ 12/12/2008 11:32:07 AM
If you believe that Christ is in fact the Messiah and that the Apostle Paul was called of God to write the Epistles (letters) of which became a major portion of the New Testiment (Bible) is not the first Chapter of "Romans" false. Paul made it very clear to the early christians (congregation) near the headquarters of the roman Empire that it is a sin to have sexual relations with the same gender. Hello, or are we so much smarter and more advanced thinkers that it is no longer a sin? Is God wrong, or that His doctrine no longer true. Then he's immediately cease to be God, and if you are smarter than God then worship yourself and create your own heaven and Eternal Life after death.
-
Posted By: reina21 @ 12/09/2008 2:38:00 PM
My suggestion is that you take time to read the bible and before you do ...ask God to speak to you through His word...you need revelation on who you really are...you're living a lie if you honestly think you can be gay and spiritual. God does love you but not the sin you commit. Read 1Corinthians 6:9 Its God's word not man's.
-
Posted By: slapyourself @ 12/07/2008 5:06:13 AM
Anyone who is for HOMO marriage is nothing but a closet *** HOMO!!!
-
Posted By: Willian C DeMuth @ 12/03/2008 9:43:55 AM
I love when two groups of deviants tear each other up!
I don???t care who sleeps with whom, it isn???t the gays I fear, it is the idiots who use Bronze Age superstition as the basis for their lives and try and force their values down other???s throats.
Whether you???re deeply committed to either side, I suggest you seek therapy while you still have time, and always remember that speaking to God is a sign you are feeble minded, but hearing him reply is a sign you???re a paranoid schizophrenic. -
Posted By: Willian C DeMuth @ 12/03/2008 9:19:16 AM
Ironic that two parts of this gentleman???s convoluted mind are diametrically opposed to each other.
Just remember it is his fellow followers of Christ who would have him spend his mortal days in a gulag, and an eternity in hell
He should join the priesthood where he can indulge both of his deviances at once! -
Posted By: lbisson @ 11/16/2008 4:21:59 PM
You must have a lot more patience with the likes of the "dangerousdave's" of the world than I do. I do not consider myself a Christian and part of that has to do with people like him. May you find your path and may it make you happy. You, like every other human being, have that right. I am not gay but am very sympathetic to the gay struggle. Even my mother, who is a born again, agrees that it is simply not something you chose but that chose you. Best wishes Jimmy Doyle.
-
Posted By: Alioness @ 08/12/2008 10:43:39 AM
Georgeo u keep using the phrase 'falliable human' as a curse. We are falliable, we are imperfect, we ALL are sinners but God still loves us! Christ gave His apostles and us, His followers, the directive to go out and tell the world about Him, about God, offering them the perfect gift of salvation, and yet you choose to ignore the teachings of those He sent, thus ignoring Him, when you refuse to listen to the words of the prophets and apostles. You choose to serve your flesh instead of making the sacrifice necessary for you to truly receive His gift. You will always find people who will have your views concerning Christianity and homosexuality but I would hate for you to finally come to grips with the truth on judgement day! Make the choice before it's too late, ask God to soften your heart, to speak to you concerning the topic and if your mind isn't changed then so be it! I like logics and even the way in which you have sexual relations with your same sex partner is not logical, it is obviously not intended based on the design of your bodies so why would you persist in using your body in the way in which it was not created?
-
Posted By: dangerousDave @ 08/03/2008 10:57:00 PM
God loves everyone,but Jesus didn't die so you could fill ur lustfull fantasies.what u r doing is not even natural,the way you r having sex is not clean or healthy and it's not of God.Is the whole world going nuts.This is filth and it needs to stop.God can help u thru anything and he will love u thru ur struggles,but I'm not gonna sit back and listen to this crap that homosexuality is normal.I have desires to be with beautiful women,but I know that I am supposed to wait for marraige.I'm not going try justify fornication because I have a desire to do it. Our flesh is naturally evil,that's why Jesus had to have His flesh ripped off for our salvation.We have a responsibility to crucify our flesh daily
-
Posted By: georgeo @ 07/18/2008 10:21:54 PM
I never said the Bible wasn't to be trusted, and remember that your opinion is also being offered by a fallible human. But as a Christian I put more trust in the words of Jesus that are found in the Bible than the words of any human. This is why I support the separation of church and state as Christ told us to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what are God's. I also oppose the death penalty because Christ rejected it, telling us that while we may have heard an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth he tells us to turn the other cheek, but as I said Christ never, not once, mentioned homosexuality so maybe you could tell me why it seems to be the single most important issue to many churches today while poverty and oppression and a lack of forgiveness are still so common in the world, and all of these things were talked about by Jesus repeatedly.
-
Posted By: SCRIP @ 07/19/2008 11:11:35 AM
Christ fully endorsed all of the Old Testament scriptures and authorized the New Testament ones as well. Trying to seperate Him from all of the Biblical context is impossible. The fact is that Paul and Peter's writings are just as valid and authoratative as Christ's recorded words.
You are also using a "red herring" approach common to arguments. You seek to divert attention from the sin of homosexuality to presumed "larger issues." However, to the homosexual, whether he or she realizes it or not, this is an issue resulting in blessing or condemnation. It also is affecting our society as a whole, causing many young people to not only be seduced into an unhappy experience (ironically called "gay") but also to tolerate immoral behavior in general. Thus the promiscious hetrosexual can say , "At least I'm not gay" and feel morally superior while steeped in sin that God abhors.
It's a hot button issue in the church because the church opposes sin in obedience to Him who knew no sin. Homosexuals make up a tiny fragment of our society but they certainly know the media game and how to promote their own cause.
Summing up, Christ is against sin and presents a way out of any destructive life style. Since you seem to put much emphasis on Christ's words, remember that three times he told a moral teacher of the Bible that he needed to be "born-again."
I bring that up to make the point that homosexual or not, all men need to experience the new birth according to Jesus Christ. Being a homosexual might keep one from yeilding to Christ's truth. That makes it a very big deal indeed for all concerned!-
Posted By: georgeo @ 07/30/2008 4:34:14 AM
Well it looks like we are at an impasse, my studies of the Bible have brought me to a considerably different understanding of God's love than your studies have. One of us might be right and the other wrong, of course we both might be right or both might be wrong, truthfully what we think is pretty unimportant, the only thing that matters is God's opinion and neither of us, or anyone else for that matter, will know what that is until we get to meet him in person. So I'm not going to worry about what you think. I know that there is nothing in the Bible that leads me to believe that God ever opposes love and so I can't fathom how God would be opposed to the relationship I have with my partner. On the secular level though I do know what principles this country was founded on, one of them being the freedom from religious oppression. So while I may not know with 100% certainty if God approves of my relationship, I do know that you or no other person has the right to tell me I can't enjoy my relationship in the same way straight couples do. I believe that in the future many Christians will look back at the way the "church" has treated gays with embarrassment in the same way they look at how many churches treated racial minorities in the past, and one day they may realize that the pain some gays feel isn't because they are gay (and it certainly isn't because they are seduced into being gay), but is because of people like yourself who should be promoting caring and compassion.
I will pray for you in hopes that God will help you to allow a bit more love into your soul, you may think that I lead a miserable existence, but truthfully, from what I have read here, I don't think you have found a 10th of the happiness in your life that I have found in mine.
-
-
-
Posted By: SCRIP @ 07/18/2008 9:35:18 PM
So lets see; the Bible is not to be trusted because it is written by fallible humans. No doubt a fallible human offered that opinion???.hmmm ???it seems that consistency of thought would invalidate all the reasoning of men. If that conclusion be true; why should anyone listen to anyone else? Including the Professor of Morals at Harvard? Or is he a valid reference because he preaches what you want to hear?
The suggestion that the Bible does not condemn the homosexual life style is ridiculous. It clearly does so in both the Old and the New Testament. The very fact that the Bible teaches how men shall treat their wives (using only opposite sex partners) should give a clue to those who stubbornly twist the intent and meaning of the familiar, plainer passages dealing with the condemnation of the homosexual lifestyle.
The writers of Scripture were remarkably consistent in pointing out all sins, including homosexuality and warning of their consequences. They also emphasized a conversion experience through Christ that would increasingly bring sinners into conformity with the God of Holy love as the only alternative to a life of sin, whether homosexual or any other manifestation of the flesh nature. -
Posted By: Jadvar @ 07/13/2008 7:39:29 AM
Georgeo's comment is exactly right. There are too many that have been led astray into thinking monogamous, same-sex relationships are somehow sinful. They are no more sinful than monogamous opposite sex relationships. Every time it is even mentioned in the bible (all by fallible humans and then translated by even more fallible humans several times over), it is mentioned in the context of old Jewish laws on cleanliness, inhospitality, same-sex prostitution, and same-sex rape. Opposite sex relationships, in these same contexts, are also cited as being wrong in the Bible as well.
There is no passage that can be even loosely translated to mean that it is sinful for a man to take another man to be his husband or for a woman to take another woman as her wife. If you've heard and believed something else from the pulpit, you've been led astray. Read The Good Book: Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart, by Peter J Gomes. He is a Professor of Morals at Harvard, and pastor of Harvard's Memorial Church. He's been recognized as one of the seven best preachers in America. I think he might know what he's talking about.-
Posted By: HomeBrewMan @ 07/19/2008 10:47:00 AM
ok, let me get this straight ( no pun intended) you believe in what God and Jesus say in the bible.... but you don't believe in what the Apostles wrote, even though Jesus himself chose them and what they wrote is inspired by God. you tout this book written by who? - a sinful human!! Also, as to no passage condeming homosexuality.... hmmm how about these passages?
Romans 1:20-32 which reads - For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world???s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened. 22 Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish 23 and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed creatures and creeping things. 24 Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error. 28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29 filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them
Notice what is said about becoming inflamed toward the same sex- it is Working what is obscene.-
Posted By: HomeBrewMan @ 07/19/2008 10:47:44 AM
or how about this one: 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10 -- 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God???s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God???s kingdom.
I don't know about you, but I want to inherit God's Kingdom!!
and as for Georeo's comments - both of thes passages were from the Christian Greek Scriptures as is this one: 2 Timothy 3:16 & 17 -- 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.-
Posted By: HomeBrewMan @ 07/19/2008 10:49:23 AM
Consider what the Apostle paul wrote in 1 Timothy 1:1-12--
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus under command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus, our hope, 2 to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 Just as I encouraged you to stay in Eph´e???sus when I was about to go my way into Mac???e???do´ni???a, so I do now, that you might command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, 4 nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies, which end up in nothing, but which furnish questions for research rather than a dispensing of anything by God in connection with faith. 5 Really the objective of this mandate is love out of a clean heart and out of a good conscience and out of faith without hypocrisy. 6 By deviating from these things certain ones have been turned aside into idle talk, 7 wanting to be teachers of law, but not perceiving either the things they are saying or the things about which they are making strong assertions.
8 Now we know that the Law is fine provided one handles it lawfully 9 in the knowledge of this fact, that law is promulgated, not for a righteous man, but for persons lawless and unruly, ungodly and sinners, lacking loving-kindness, and profane, murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, manslayers, 10 fornicators, men who lie with males, kidnappers, liars, false swearers, and whatever other thing is in opposition to the healthful teaching 11 according to the glorious good news of the happy God, with which I was entrusted. 12 I am grateful to Christ Jesus our Lord, who imparted power to me, because he considered me faithful by assigning me to a ministry, 13 although formerly I was a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insolent man. Nevertheless, I was shown mercy, because I was ignorant and acted with a lack of faith.
Notice that Jesus HIMSELF gave Paul that preaching commission. Would he have done that if Paul would be teaching things contrary to what Jesus wanted? No, of course not. also, a point of interest is where he groups "men who lie with males" -- with murderers, liars, kidnappers etc. Now that is just a few of the many passages that condemn homosexuality-
Posted By: Jadvar @ 07/19/2008 9:07:59 PM
Every passage you've quoted from the Bible, actually refers to either promiscuity, child abuse, prostitution or some combination of the above when taken in context. I agree that they are wrong, but they are wrong for both heterosexual and homosexual relationships. They have nothing to do with long term, committed relationships regardless of the sex of either partner.
-
Posted By: HomeBrewMan @ 07/23/2008 8:02:42 AM
i guess you have made your mind up so don't cloud the issue with the truth huh?
-
Posted By: HomeBrewMan @ 07/23/2008 8:30:45 AM
ok, take the example of Sodom and Gomorrah.
In Jude 1:7 it says - So too Sod´om and Go·mor´rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.
So, what would be this "unnatural use" of the flesh? It's Homosexuality. the men and boys who surrounded Lot's home asked for the angels who were staying with him so they could have intercourse with them!!! Now lets use a little reasoning... if homosexuality were ok, don't you think that God would have provided an escape for those people like he did Lot and his family?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Posted By: georgeo @ 07/11/2008 3:19:20 PM
Neither God nor Jesus ever mentioned homosexuality, not once. All of the times homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible it is mentioned by humans, imperfect and fallible humans. It is mentioned in the old Jewish law but Jesus freed me from having to be burdened by these laws, so I feel no guilt in eating pork or wearing blended fabrics, I also, as a Christian, feel no guilt about being gay and living in a monogamous relationship with another man.
-
Posted By: Jadvar @ 07/19/2008 9:04:35 PM
Every passage you've quoted from the Bible, actually refers to either promiscuity, child abuse, prostitution or some combination of the above when taken in context. I agree that they are wrong, but they are wrong for both heterosexual and homosexual relationships. They have nothing to do with long term, committed relationships regardless of the sex of either partner.
-
-
Posted By: Alioness @ 07/10/2008 1:04:48 PM
If u truly love God u would desire to do all that pleases him, doesn't it say in scripture 'if u love Me you will obey my commands' and elsewhere it says 'obedience is better than sacrifice'? If u love God u would not openly practice homosexuality but make the daily sacrifice of overcoming your sinful desires thus pleasing Him.
-
Posted By: SCRIP @ 07/05/2008 11:16:24 PM
My God is a merciful God. How many times one hears this comment when teaching that God is completely holy and hates all sin.
I would like to suggest that Divine mercy only finds an occasion in the transgression of the sinner, of which I am the chief.
It is no good to deny the fact of sin in one's life on the basis of God's mercy.. The opposite is intended; admit not just a sinful action, but rather a propensity for sin (read; rebellion against God's will in any area).
An initial admittance of this nature and a subsequent cry to God for forgiveness and His Presence to empower different future actions, is salvation.
This is truly being born again, born from above.
Let Me Worship AS I Am is not acceptable to God. Rather, as the old hymn reads; Just as I am, without one one plea, but that Thy blood was shed for me, I come to Thee.
God loved all so much that He gave Christ to pay for all sin, including homosexuality. This is so that we forgiven sinners can truly worship Him as Christ said, "In Spirit and in truth."
God's love is not a license to keep on sinning but a lifeline to joy, peace, Heaven. -
Posted By: ariesgal63 @ 07/02/2008 4:00:56 PM
People there is no such thing as a God...it's man made so people would have something to fear about...please...
-
Posted By: Floridave @ 07/02/2008 9:24:38 PM
Prove it.
-
-
Posted By: gmfsf @ 07/01/2008 6:06:25 PM
Dear Jimmy,
As a gen-x Jew living in San Francisco among gay and straight friends, I must defend my fellow American Christians from your statement, "Christian is equated with fanatics who need G-d to be as human as can be: male, full of pride and hate..." The American churches are predominantly institutions that elevate our spirits, fund and perform charity work, and promote morality in an often immoral world. That you plaster over this goodness the label of ???hate??? simply because a congregation - ???in worshipping as they are??? - doesn???t sanction gay church leaders or similar is dishonest: It is entirely possible (and truly Christian) to simultaneously reject ideas or actions of people while still loving them. Will you consider reserving your courage and good voice for those institutions of any stripe who actually preach hate and violence?
Jordy Berson
San Francisco, CA -
Posted By: FaithWatcher @ 06/26/2008 9:15:38 AM
Jimmy and Bishop Robinson, you consider yourselves Christian, which, by implication, means you believe in God and you believe the Bible. If you put aside the man-made ???smells and bells??? and focus on that one true root of Christianity ??? the Bible, given to us by God ??? you have to reckon with the fact that the Bible says, repeatedly, in the Old Testament and the New Testament, is that homosexuality is offensive to God. It is a sin. He destroyed two prosperous cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) because it was so offensive to Him. As Christians, you cannot escape that fact. You cannot ignore this very clear instruction anymore than you can ignore the commandment not to take His name in vain.
Yes, Jesus Christ did teach love of all humans. As such, I have absolutely no doubt that you are loved by your Heavenly Father and Savior, and it is your fellow Christians responsibility to love you the same. I do, and I pray for you. But to say that Jesus or God would condone homosexuality is a contortion of Word on which the Christian faith is based. There is a big difference between loving the sinner and loving the sin. Jesus did the former, but not the latter.
God gave us free will to choose to live the way we want, but He did not give us the permission to adapt His Word to justify our lifestyle choices and therefore escape blame for sin. Many a society, according to the Bible, was punished for just such a move. -
Posted By: proud to be 57 @ 06/25/2008 12:26:15 PM
and this would be the comment:
Comment: I'll leave it to the debaters to fight over the question of homosexuality as sin. But I know this, as an "evangelical" I realize that every personI am worshiping with are broken and in need of redemption. I'm not gay, but I know my sin - and if homosexuality is sin, it's not worse than any other. Lastly and most importantly, I believe the if Christ were conducting His public ministry in today's time - a major focus of that ministry would be the gay community. The reason? To show others His love for all. -
Posted By: mdharnois @ 06/24/2008 5:19:48 PM
Wow. I'm 52, have a BA, an MDiv and a JD, go to church at least 50 weeks a year, and I'm not nearly as certain about what God would have us believe as is mm1228. But I am absolutely certain that God is not about hate and condemnation.
-
Posted By: mm1228 @ 06/24/2008 3:33:22 PM
I agree with the second poster. If we profess to be Christian, we can't make up our own rules about what the Bible says, or try to change God's truth. God's truth never changes, and gay lifestlye is just as sinful today as it was when the book was written. If we want to follow God and be Christian, we must abide by all of his standards and commands. He does love us all, reguardless, but he does not love people thinking the know better than him and trying to rewrite his commands. The fact is that Christians believe the gay lifestlye to be a sinful, unnatural, uhealthy one and God does not want us to have anything to do with it. If this person were really saved and really believed God's message, he would see the hypocrasy and shamefulness of claming to be saved yet continuing to think it's okay to live in sin. He may think God's okay with it because he hasn't been punished but in time he will have to stand before God and he will recieve his punishment.
-
Posted By: BAJUAMDA @ 06/22/2008 3:21:04 PM
Let???s take this one step at a time. First: Christianity is a belief in God. It s called ???Christianity??? because of the belief that Jesus of Nazareth was (and is) the long-awaited ???Christ??? (anointed one) of the Jewish Faith, i.e. the Messiah. Christianity therefore believes in the God who is revealed in the pages of the Hebrew scriptures (also called the ???Old Testament???) The difference between Jews and Christians is that Christians believe that the Messiah promised to the Jewish people in those scriptures came to earth in the person of Jesus. The revelation of Him and his teachings, and of those whom He chose to spread the ???good news??? (gospel) of His coming, are recorded in the New Testament. Put them together and you have what Christians call the Bible.
A huge part of being a Christian is the belief that what God is like is revealed in the pages of that Bible: His character, His nature, His ways. He calls those who believe and follow Him to be like Him. It is very clear, even from a brief reading of those scriptures, that there are certain things that God likes, and certain things that He does not. ???Do not kill, do not steal??? are a couple that most people could quote. One of the things called ???abomination??? (that???s pretty strong dislike) in the Bible is for ???a man to lie with another man?????? Lest we think that this is just ???Old Testament thinking???, the New Testament also warns us:???Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. ??? (Romans 1:26-27)
If we say that we are Christians, we say that we are buying into the Christian faith. We are ???eating the soup??? ( if I may borrow from the author) of the Bible, of divine creation, the deity of Christ, the authority of scripture, to name a few (soups, that is).
If we are to eat the soup of Christianity, we are not entitled to simply eat the noodles but not the chicken, or eat the celery but not the carrots (because God created me to be a carrot hater). If God made the Soup, it is good for us. All of it. -
Posted By: mongooselove@sbcglobal.net @ 06/18/2008 7:17:14 PM
I feel like most people are missing the point of this article. Which I understand, do to the fact that the themes are so easily topic torrents, ie Religion and Homosexuality. So aside from comments that will flow with opinions, I think the point made is really concrete. And if anything should be discussed, let it be the about what people feel about such a huge change in ones life, and what that brings.
I cannot even imagine what it must be like for someone to have a faith so defined for so many years in ones life, and then be willing to really work so very hard to let go and begin a new path. It's like working as a doctor for years, then going to school to become a lawyer. I don't actually think :taking the soup" is the easier way. Though at first it might feel easier and softer, it's actually opening backs one life to grow with a new vigor. To stay the same, to stay stagment, that is the comfort of being complacent, and I for one would hate to be a prisoner in my own life. even if I am promised a kingdom in the next.-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/18/2008 8:06:09 PM
I see your point. I have a neighbor that was a surgeon, but then went to law school to become a lawyer. Now he sues doctors. And if he was gay I would be against him getting married. Thanks for setting us straight.
-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 10:41:57 AM
Actually your neighbor is in a very rare postition to understand both medicine and the law. Probablyt decided that since the law and our completely broken malpractice sytem made it impossible for him to make a functional (from his perspective) living that he would go tot other side. Hopefully he only engages in legitimate suits against the comparatively smaller number of truly malpracticing doctors and hospitals. It would be a shame if he was now part of the more serious problem instead of the solution.
-
-
-
Posted By: shawnp @ 06/18/2008 3:12:34 PM
I was elated to open NEWSWEEK and recognize a picture of the sanctuary in which I worship! St. Thomas of the Apostle Episcopal Church of Hollywood is the church I've come to call home since moving to LA and I can certainly attest to the overall spirit of Christ that is felt there. :)
-
Posted By: HomeBrewMan @ 06/18/2008 1:40:55 PM
Well, if you read the bible, it would tell you at 1Corinthians 6:9, 10 -- What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God's kingdom.
-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 10:36:46 AM
Not inheritting something that only exists in the imagination of certain humans. Not that big a problem.
-
Posted By: nmjhh @ 06/19/2008 1:04:09 PM
But what if it's NOT just an imagination as you suggest. What it this inheritance is REAL? Then you have something to ponder...
-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 3:54:56 PM
Not really. I have studied this stuff for years and finally came to educated realization that there is no irrefutable proof of god's existance. In science the burden of proof lies with the affiremative stae (existance) . Lacking that the default position is the nagaitve (non-exisatnce.) Even religious scientists of any real skill and educaiton acknowledge that. I know, I have talked to some of them. When asked why they still believe they say "faith". But they still acknowledge that there is no proof and that the burden of proof rests with those who believe, not those who do not.
If you want to believe, that is fine. If your belief in god and your religion inspires you treat your fellow and the planet well, then I respect that. You should not change. But it is not needed by everyone.
-
-
-
Posted By: summer4077 @ 06/19/2008 10:19:16 AM
Yeah so we're pretty much all out. I mean, kids out of wedlock (40% of kids born today), sex before marriage (the majority of the population), anyone who drinks and gets drunk (bye bye college kids!), etc.
-
-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/18/2008 11:17:57 AM
By the way, to the author.... great essay. We probably disagree on the finer points of your issue, but I really enjoyed your writing. In particular the soup reference, and the phrase that compared your level of gayness to a handbag. Good stuff. Thanks for writing it.
-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/17/2008 3:51:48 PM
Why is it such a shock that the church would embrace gays? Being gay is a sexual abberation. Jesus cured lepers and other medically challenged followers, why shouldn't those who worship be equally open minded to someone with a problem that separates him from society? Church isn't about judgement, it's about supporting each other's celebration of faith.
-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/17/2008 4:32:30 PM
Being homosexual is not a sexual aberation. It does not separate one form society. Society's stupidity and ignorance separates itself from the homosexual.
As for why a church would embrace homosexuals. It is because the human's involved are intelligent enough to realize that there is ntohing wrong or unnatural aobut homosexuality. What is wrong and unnatural is the hatred that some believers express and use their religions as cover for. Since religion and god are man-made constructs, they can be used to explain civilized behavior (as the authors's church does) or to jhustify uncivilized behavior, as most fundamentalist churches do.-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/17/2008 6:44:40 PM
How is homosexuality NOT an abberation? You can pretend it's normal, but it's about as natural as bestiality. It doesn't deserve to be considered a crime, but let's not pretend that sexuality outside of male and female is the way we were designed. Sex is designed for reproduction. That's why we call sex organs reproductive organs. It's what they do. It's what they are for. The fact that sex is pleasant is just icing on the cake. If sex with another member of your own sex is what appeals to you, go for it. Most of us really don't care. It's your business. But it's private business. Don't tell me about it. And don't expect society to bend over backwards for you by changing it's laws to make gays feel more mainstream. Bending over is just not the way to go when it comes to gay matters.
-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/17/2008 7:47:59 PM
"If sex with another member of your own sex is what appeals to you, go for it."
Actually, for me it is not. I am very much heterosexual. I am a man who is attracted to women, physically, emotionally and psychologically.
"Most of us really don't care."
If you did not care you would not post about this topic.
"It's your business. But it's private business."
As long as there are laws that discriminate against gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender individuals, and gay and lesbian couples, then it is everyone's business.
As long as a heterosexual couple that has known each other for 2 weeks and has not even thought about the future is granted legal rights concerning estates, property, child-rearing, end-of-life, and medical-input issues simply by having a $25 marriage license and a five minuite civil ceremony, while a same-sex couple that has been together 25 years and has made a serious commitment to each other, and truly loves each other, has to jump through time-consuming and often expensive processes to get even some of those rights through powers of attorney, medical directive statements and the like, has to carry notarized copies of all of those documents with them at all times for both themselves and their partners (and even then some mentally deficient states, judges, and hospitals will still not grant them those rights) it is EVERYONE'S business and it NOT a private issue.
"Don't tell me about it."
Then you need to also bar mainstream media from showing or disscusssing ANY type of relationships in film, books, or TV. Not only same-sex ones. The problem is yours and not theirs.
"And don't expect society to bend over backwards for you by changing it's laws to make gays feel more mainstream."
No one is expecting society to "bend over backwards" for anyone. They are jsut demand EQUAL rights. Not special rights. The simple fact is that just as the laws that denied rights based on race, religion, ethic origin, gender, physical and/or mental disability, and age were changed as it became obvious that they were wrong and a violation of the Equal Protection clause of the US Constitution (and there were laws that discriminated against people based on their membership in each of those groups), the laws that discrimate against people based on their sexual orientation are also wrong. Oh, and one simple point. Of all of those discriminated against groups, ONLY religion is a CHOICE. No oneis bending over for the LGBT community. And they are nto being asked ot. They are simply being asked to stop discriminating against them. -
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/17/2008 7:47:44 PM
"How is homosexuality NOT an abberation? You can pretend it's normal, but it's about as natural as bestiality."
Wrong. Same-sex activities occur in many mammalian species. Science has shown that it is quite nornal.
"but let's not pretend that sexuality outside of male and female is the way we were designed."
Since heterosexual anal sex has always been part of human sexual behavior it is very much how we were designed (assuming that we were designed, whihc is not a fact).
"Sex is designed for reproduction. That's why we call sex organs reproductive organs."
Actually, in many cultures not corrupted by Abrahamic religions (and even in some where the societies refused to be conned by those beliefs), they were first and foremost called either "eliminatory organs" in recognition that first and foremost, THAT is their primary function. After all if one is not capable of eliminating waste from one's body, one will not live long enough to procreate. After that they were more often referred to as "pleasure organs" in recognittion of the fact that reproduction was not their primary function. The simple fact that a child that has not reached reproduction age is capable of feeling pleasure when those organs are stimulated (mostly self-stimulated), and that even adults of child-reating age who incapable of either bearing children or fertilizing eggs, are still able to achieve orgasm and have pleasure proves that the pleasure aspect is primary. If reproduction was the primary function, then once a woman was pregnant she would temporarily be incapable of achieving orgams or having pleasure sensations. It is the pleasure aspect that usually helps define relationships and love in the animal kingdom (since not only humans or even mammals are capable of those things. )-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/18/2008 12:42:05 AM
Ghosty, that's quite an obsession you have there. Sorry, but if high school biology couldn't teach you the basics, don't look to me for education on how your anus is not a sex organ. Not every thing that gives you pleasure is sexual. And your remarks about stimulating children's organs are borderline obscene. I guess this tells us quite a bit about you.
Twist it up any way you want, but gay sex is as private as normal sex. Let's keep it that way. If gay's want civil unions to allow for beneficiary rights, let them have it. It makes sense. But marriage is a whole different matter and has no advantage for gays over civil unions. You can pretend it's not an abberancy, but that won't make it so. And the fact that you know what I mean when I say "normal" is by itself evidence of the FACT that gay sex is abnormal. Thanks for playing. Next subject, please.-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/18/2008 8:26:31 AM
Actually, it is your obsession. And high school biology is not where one learns about the fact that the entire body is capable of being a sexual organ. What I mentioned is that your lack of education about the penis and vagina are staggering. Your ignorance about that simple biological facts are scary. My points about children being able to be "stimulated" and able to experience pleasure from a sex organ are not obscene. They are medical and physiological fact. I learned about that in college and graduate level psych classes. I mentioned it to debunk you fallacious comments about reproductive organs.
Anbd since you are of the mistaken impression that gay sex is always, or even primarily, about anal sex, you are incorrrect about that. In both gay/lesbian and heterosexual actiivity., oral and manual stimulation is often a major and for some couples, the primary or only form of sexual acitivity that transpires. And more to the point. Homosexuality, like heterosexuaity is NOT primarily about sex. It is about the relationship. the companionship, the love and caring and togetherness.
I have no problem with keeping sex, of any kind, somewhat private, although I agree with the idea that if there is a choice between showing sex verusus showing violece I would rather see the sex. But the issue is NOT "showing" sex. It is about debunking the lie that homosexuality is not a natural state of being and it in any way inmproper or "sick". And more importantly, that any form of governmental discrimination against gays and lesbians is wrong.
As for the word "normal". I know what you mean because I know that you are in fact incorrect. It in no way means that gay sex is abnormal, nay more thatn the idea that since the overwhelming majority of people on the planet have black or brown hair would mena that being blond is abnormal.
And unless the civil authroities stop using the word marriage for the legal civil contract for ALL people , then the term "civil union" automatically creates a discrimination. The fact is that the word marriage is referenced in so many laws and rules that unless ALL the governements (federal, state and local) were to change their laws to assure the absolute equality of the rights given, the term "civil union" is a defacto second class status.-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/18/2008 11:14:31 AM
Hey Ghosty, ever notice how when you are proven wrong your ability to spell deteriorates dramatically? I don't know what perversions you are capable of, but I wouldn't recommend that you ever write a ransom note. Your truths, lies and personality traits stand out from your syntax like gravestone markers.
It's also telling that you brought up the word "sick" when referring to homosexuality. Your words, not mine.
Homosexuality isn't wrong, but it will never be mainstream. That's just how it is. Now stop trying to twist my words around and deal with the fact that I really don't care how you live your life. Just don't brag about it all day... it's none of my business, or anyone elses. Good luck to you and yours.-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/18/2008 4:15:58 PM
And as I said before, I am not heterosexual (not that I would hide the fact if I were homosexual.) And I do not brag about my heterosexuality. I simply state it as a fact. There seems to be a mistaken assumption that only homosexuals defend LGBT rights. I have protested for equal rights for blacks and for women, all the while being a Caucasian male. Actually, anyone who loves the US Constitution will defend equal rights for all people.
Homosexuals do not brag about being gay all day. The author of this article was actually pointing out that although it seems that all we hear about is Christianity being anti-gay (which is the impression that is put forth if one listens to what is said by many Christian "leaders"), real Christianity is not that way. And that there is no reason to hide one's sexuality in a closet just because some people are not mature enough to deal with it.
But just as civil rights for blacks did not occur without a substantial amount of publicity and public demonstration and outcry, so must the LGBT community engage in public demonstration and publicity to get their equal rights. It has taken a lot just it get make the progress they have achieved. And you will remember that in the 1950's and 1960's many people stated that since the majority opposed equal rights for blacks. So in case someone (not necessarily you) uses the invalid argument that the majority opposed gay rights or same-sex marriage, the simple fact is that in US law, the will of the majority NEVER trumps the rights to equal treatment of the minority. And it is only because homosexuals do not make up more than 50% of the population that they are not ???mainstream???. Blacks, Jews, Asians, people over 6???2, left-handed people do not make up a majority of the US population. Does that mean that they are not ???mainstream???? The term mainstream is irrelevant to US law and US Society. We are now so diverse a nation that the term is all but meanlingless.-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/18/2008 4:17:21 PM
I ment to type that I am not homosexual. I am heterosexual.
-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/18/2008 4:37:38 PM
"meant" not "ment". Nothing like typing while getting multiple phone calls.
Also for some reason, some of my my ' and " have been replaced with ????.
Therefore the strange spelling of 6'2 (6 foot 2 inches) and the question marks around the word mainstream in this last post.-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/18/2008 8:46:19 PM
Ghost, maybe it's time we started blogging with other bloggers. I feel like I'm leading you on. I know how sensitive your type can be.
-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 7:55:18 AM
We also need to stop soon or we will end up with postings of 4-5 letters in width only given the indentation of this board. LOL!!!
-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 7:14:54 AM
Actually, you seem to be the sensitive one.
I have spent years leading on narrow-minded people like you on line.
You simply provided me with an opening to expose the fallacies that most anti-LGBT people express. Thank you for the opening.
But I agree. Let's move on other topics. We ARE going in circles and there is really nothing else for me to educate you and your type on. Either you learn or you keep you minds closed. The choice is yours. Hopefully you are honest and intelligent enough to learn and open your mind. I actually think that you personally are. There is hope for you yet.-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/19/2008 9:30:45 AM
Look, Ghosty.... I don't know how else to say this, I, well, uh.... I like you.... but I don't "like you" like you. I'm sorry if I led you on with my brave masculine truths, but at least you learned something along the way, hopefully. Good luck to you. I'm sure you will find a nice young man whose head you can fill with your twisted condescension.... but I can't be that guy. I like chicks. Sorry.
I do have a little free advice for you, though. When you find Mr. Right, make sure he is over 18 and until you are sure don't cross any state lines. Good luck.
If you want to write back, I understand. It's hard to lose a catch like me. Besides, I'm curious just how narrow they will print our paragraphs.-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 10:10:02 AM
Since you seem incapable of understanding some things, I will try one more time. I am straight. Never wanted to be with a man in that way.
I don't like chicks. I like women. And I have not seen any "brave masculinity" in what you wrote.
I found MS Right years ago. SHE was a natural redhead, Scottish, 5 foot 9, grey eyes, beautiful figure (could just barely get away without a bra in non-business clothes being a firm, but natural, 34C), PhD in Sociology, loved to cook with me in our gourmet kitchen (she was the better baker, I the better general cook), could hold her Single Malt Scotch with the best of them (although we tended to avoid getting drunk, preferring to sip the finer scotches and wines over guzzling them) , very feminine, very sexual, and one of the most beautiful women I ever met. Unfortunately she was killed by a drunk dirver before we got married.
I have dated other wonderful women since, but I miss her to this day.
As I said, only a fool thinks that only gays support gay rights or will fight for their rights. It is called loving the US Constitution.-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/19/2008 1:03:48 PM
I try to avoid believing what people say about themselves online, but I will take your story about your loss as truth so that I can tell you how sorry I am for your loss. I can't imagine losing my wife.... I just can't. Oddly, your composition set me up for a shock. I was reading your description of her and getting a little jealous.... then suddenly got slapped by your sad punctuation of loss. Again, I very sorry.
Also, I am kinda curious how skinny they will let these paragraphs get.-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 2:08:52 PM
Thank you. I hope you never find out how it feels.
She was a wonderful person. Even more beautiful on the inside than on the outside. And I always thought that I was so lucky that she fell in love with me. She used to say that my passion for justice hooked her.
Sometimes I get jealous of my past with her. I want it back.
Ok let's see how skinny we can go with these posts.-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/19/2008 4:14:31 PM
If only weight loss were so simple. Type a little, lose a little. Good point about the past. Who wouldn't want to go back and re-live a little?
-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 4:20:34 PM
Don't I know it. We could make a fortune with the "reply diet". LOL!!!
OK. Let's see how tiny we can go.-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/19/2008 4:58:21 PM
Running low on ways to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are wrong, which of course we both know you are (I know you mean well). But I would like to say that the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog. Man, I really typed that fast.
-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/19/2008 6:07:19 PM
This reminds me, I don't care much for skinny people either.
-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 7:21:33 PM
Actually we both know that you are not correct. There is nothing wrong with being gay. And it is not a choice but a biological aspect. There is far too much scieintific evidence to believe otherwise.
As for skinny people. It depends on what you mean by "skinny". But I'll take Sophia Loren or Rosalind Russell in their heydey.-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 7:22:41 PM
Ok, so now the reply button is wider beyond the width of the words.
-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/19/2008 8:23:11 PM
I never said there was anything wrong with being gay. The whole conversation was about whether or not it could be considered "normal." If you want to keep society alive, you need normal. Gay won't do it. Infertile won't do it either. Infertile is not normal. I could go on but.... but.... the walls, the walls are closing in from the left... can't breathe..... must get out.... need air, need space.... gasp... choke.... gag..... cough..... gasp.
Hey now that I think of it those last words probably sounded like one of your gay experiences.-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/20/2008 8:04:05 AM
The major flaw with your argument is the presumption that normal requires only ONE sexual modality. No one has ever said that begin gay is the ONLY sexual mode. Since they are about 10% of the population society can be "kept" alive". Alos being gay does not preclude having children. Lesbians can be inseminated and gay men can be sperm donors. There is a major difference between procreating and relationships. Since you seem to know far more about how gay experiences sound than I do maybe you are gay after all.
-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/19/2008 8:24:35 PM
Wow. Everything moved to the right. Just like America should.
-
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/20/2008 8:05:33 AM
To the right and completely narrow and restricitive and unfree. Just like the right tries to make America.
-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/23/2008 11:18:47 AM
"The Right" in America keeps things in check. True, they would probably make life pretty much impossible for the poor and the lazy if they were left unchecked for decades on end.... but the left would break us much faster. A liberal supreme court alone would damage us beyond recognition with policies and laws designed to flood the court system with needless bleeding heart nonsense (as they did recently with their decision on terrorists rights in Guantanamo). So, as always the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but not the exact middle as I expect the truth leans somewhere towards the right.
-
Posted By: Floridave @ 06/23/2008 11:25:43 AM
Obviously, I lean to the right. Right is right. Left is wrong.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Discuss