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After the Vows

What's next in the fight over same-sex marriage

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  • Posted By: stargirl @ 12/06/2008 2:15:52 AM

    NO, to same sex marriage.
    This is not mentioned in the Bible, if God had wanted men to marry men and women to only marry women, he would not have created Adam and Eve

  • Posted By: NioSki @ 11/30/2008 5:55:10 PM

    Gays of color, transgender, and yes, even lesbians are missing from the larger discourse of the gay rights struggle???primarily the gay marriage issue. The gay right's movement was and remains the "gay, white, middle class" movement! The diversity within the gay community seems to be reconciled to Pride Parades-- and AIDS advertisement. HOWEVER, it never seems to extend to national or cultural images of Gay America???like Advocate and Out magazine???the central offenders in this area! Why you ask? Because the myth and mystique of San Francisco has extended to a larger culture that gay is white and it???s male. Forget the black Drag queens who started fights during Stonewall... Gay is San Fran and Harvey Milk! But the white male paradigm controls the discourse, media, politics and consequently the image of Gay America. Before the gay community can discuss civil rights it needs to look at the power positions and paradigms of privilege within its own community and ask why they exist!?

  • Posted By: Mwalimu @ 11/06/2008 1:36:32 AM

    In 1964, racial fanatics passed Proposition 14, a constitutional amendment which forbade all fair housing legislation forever and ever in California. In 1966, the California Supreme Court declared Proposition 14 unconstitutional. The Proponents of proposition 8 seem to forget that amendments to the constitution must be in synch with constitutional rights and liberties guaranteed elsewhere in the state constitution. A recent Supreme Court decision, Romer vs. Evans forbids states from denying groups of people rights and freedoms granted to everyone else.
    The so-called "Christian groups" who passed Proposition 8 used the same propaganda techniques advocated by Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's minister of propaganda - basically tell a lie often enough and people will believe it. I realize that a number of fundamentalists, Mormons, and Catholics will throw a hizzy fit - but truth told, if you don't want to be linked to Hitler, then don't Nazi propaganda techniques.
    I'll also post a warning to the so-called Christians who violated the 9th Amerndment to pass proposition 8. In a number of countries in the world, Christians are regarded with the same fear, hatred and loathing that Christian religious fanatics in this country reserve for homosexuals. By depriving homosexuals of rights in California, so-called "Christians" are giving a green light for religious fundamentalists to persecute Christians. The next time religious fanatics attack Christians, I expect every "Christian" who voted for Proposition 8 to accept personal responsibility for that attack. What goes around comes around. It's too bad that Christian religious fanatics in this country are so blinded by their hatred that they can't see the truth.

  • Posted By: AngelPat3000 @ 06/18/2008 4:34:09 AM

    Same Sex Marriage is an ABOMBANATION Against GOD! This is really sad for us as a people. But the day will come when God,( not me, the supreme court, not the govenor, or the Gay or Strait will have the last Word.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/18/2008 6:46:22 PM

      YAWNN!!

      Since there is no god that argument is moot.

      • Posted By: thebes @ 07/10/2008 11:04:48 PM

        Yawnn Since there is a God your argument is moot.

        • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 10/31/2008 5:43:07 PM

          You may believe there is a god but that does nto make it so. There is no irrefutable proof outside of the imagination of his believers.

    • Posted By: greenwolf22 @ 06/18/2008 10:32:27 AM

      but the ruling is not about God is it? Its about the Califonia Constitution and rights people have under man's law not God's. Churches still have the right to deny marriage rites if they want but have no power over civil serviecs do they?

  • Posted By: thebes @ 07/10/2008 10:48:13 PM

    Science has proven nothing but theory and as always people that want to believe it jump on the bandwagon. But hey it's OK. Man-boy marriage is next along with bestiality marriage. If that bothers you you should see a therapist. After all younger people do not have a problem with it as long as we keep shoving lies down their throats. talk to someone to make man-boy and bestiality less traumatic to you, you bigoted normal person!

    • Posted By: elpaulito @ 10/30/2008 5:12:01 PM

      You are kidding right?

      Lets see. What has science brought us? We went to the moon, computers, appliances, flat screen tv's.... or were the instructions in the bible?

      Not to mention, I am sure that people said the same thing about allowing blacks to vote. "Oh no! We whites are going to lose our way of life.... Jesus, what do we do with these here ni######."

      Pathetic.

  • Posted By: Jim F. @ 06/18/2008 4:27:54 PM

    SAN FRANCISCO, CA. (IP)* ??? Two bisexual men are demanding a marriage license to wed their female partner. John, Ken and Sharon have lived in a committed relationship for eleven years. The three claim they are just as committed to each other as couples in any gay or heterosexual relationship.

    ???I want my whole relationship to be legitimate and not just two-thirds???, said Ken. The redefining of marriage to include gay relationships has opened the door to other lifestyle relationships demanding marriage equality. The same argument of non-discrimination and equal protection is being used to justify their demand.

    ???Denying us the marriage right is discrimination based on sexual orientation???, said John. ???Limiting marriage to two people is in direct conflict with the reality of my sexual orientation. What about equal protection and the pursuit of happiness????

    Legal experts say the groundwork has been laid for other alternative lifestyle relationships to make demands for marriage equality. The questions remain of how the legal system and social services will handle diverse marital situations, divorces, and child custody issues.

    * - The above is a fictitious story by Imaginary Press but is likely to be seen if we continue with the redefining of marriage.

    • Posted By: sjbrock80 @ 06/18/2008 4:50:19 PM

      Exactly, and it's only a matter of time before people start to want marrying their pets, plants, and property.

      • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/18/2008 7:46:42 PM

        sjbrocko,

        That idiocy has already been addressed in prior posts. IF you are too ignorant to understand it that is your problem.

        • Posted By: sjbrock80 @ 06/19/2008 2:20:55 PM

          It's simple logic that gay people are too blind to understand. If gay people don't realize that what they do is disgusting and horrific, then that's their problem. It should be put back in the closet and kept out of politics.

          • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 2:52:02 PM

            First off, I am heterosexual not homosexual so do not assume that only gays people can see what a crock of garbage you are spouting. None of us (gay or straight) are blind. It is your mindless faith that is blind and dumb. The only simple thing is your mind.

            Second, (that your absurd and invalid assertions about people marrying everything) have actually been addressed by many legal experts (the overwhelming majority of them are not gay). My comments are based on the wisdom of those scholars and experts.

            YOU (and some other) may THINK that what they do is disgusting and horrific, but that is ONLY your OPINION, not in any way factual in the general sense. It is YOUR problem not theirs. (OF course when you try to harm them or discriminate against them is it is every civilized human beings problem).

            It should not be in the closet and it very much belongs in the public discourse and the courts. Equal rights are EVERYONE's right.

            • Posted By: sjbrock80 @ 06/23/2008 3:34:32 PM

              Save your legal expert and civilized human being speech. You seem to think that if someone doesn't agree with gay rights that they are blinded by faith. No, I just plain don't like it and won't support it.

              My opinion is just as valid as your opinion. Because my opinion is different than yours does not make me discriminatory or bigoted. My mind is not simple. I do not accept gayness and will not be pressured into it by your so-called expers and scholars.

              The only garbage I see on these posts is yours, assuming gay rights are some type of deserved thing. That is not true. Being gay is a choice and I do not have to accept gay people's choices and support them. That is the fact that you are too blind to see. So, go back to your love everyone world of garbage and don't tell me what's right and wrong.

              • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/25/2008 12:38:36 PM

                sjbrock80,

                YOU made the comment
                "It's simple logic that gay people are too blind to understand."
                THAT is not a statement of OPINION. Now IF you said "I THINK.." that would have been opinion.

                " If gay people don't realize that what they do is disgusting and horrific, then that's their problem."
                Again opinion. The problem is only yours, not theirs.

                " It should be put back in the closet and kept out of politics."
                Again, opinion. You are entitled to your OIPINION of gays. But you have not given any logical or intelligent reasons. "Disgusting and horrific" are not reasons. Why are they so? How does thier actions adversely affect you? It does not. And your use of those words actually does show a fair amount of bigotry.

                Science has proven fairly conclusively that sexual orientation is NOT a choice. And new studies are showing even more biological differences every year.


                But when you said before that you would fire someone who was gay, YOU may NOT have that rigth depending on the state you live in. And it is very possible that unless your business is specifically a religious institution, that you could find yourslef on the losing end of a lawsuit. THAT is simple fact. Anbd it is not that hard to rpove why you fired them. I doubt that you have kept your viewpoints only to this board.

                Like i said, as long as you do not harm them then you are welcome to your opinion. But you do not have a right to deny them legal rights or standing.

                And I do not love everyone. I tend to have nothing but contempt for people like you and otehrs who would rape our constitution.

                • Posted By: sjbrock80 @ 06/25/2008 4:06:15 PM

                  Try thinking about it like this...

                  Think of something that you really dislike, to the point that it makes you sick to your stomach. Now imagine that a group of people are pushing to have this thing in your face all the time, while suggesting to you that you should drop all your personal beliefs and just accept it. It won't physically hurt you, but mentally you will have to suffer the rest of your life with it in your face and if you make the slightest complaint, people will call you insensitive, bigoted, idiotic, or act like something is wrong with you.

                  Well that's how I feel about gays and gay rights. I don't like it and can't accept gay rights being pushed through our courts.

                  I won't ever agree with your viewpoint. I'm glad you have contempt for me. I can accept that knowing that the way I feel is the right way.

                  • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/26/2008 8:18:19 AM

                    I am not expecting you to agree with my viewpoint.

                    But if homosexuality causes you that much distress (and you have not given one reason why it does so), for your own sake you might want to talk to a therapist. I am not saying that as a criticism, but more as advise to help you not be quite so troubled by something that will not be going away.

                    The simple fact is that homosexuality is not going to go away, that science is proving that it is not a choice, and that your viewpoint is one that is being held by fewer people each year. Tthere have been a number of studies showing that, on the whole, younger people do not have the same problem with it that their parents' and grandparents' generation have with it. And that a growing number of people in those genreations (such as myself) do not have a problem with it.

                    Whether you like it or not gay/lesbian rights becoming far more prevalent and that is not going to change. The LGBT (Lesbian/Gay/Bi/Transgender) community is not going to go back into the closet. And many, many heterosexuals, (such as myself) will always welcome them as equals and urge them to be out and proud. For your own sake maybe you should talk to someone to make it less traumatic for you.

  • Posted By: aliciainsd @ 06/24/2008 6:04:52 PM

    I dont think that courts have the right to say that gay marriage is ok, when the majority of their state has said no. These officials are appointed to represent the poeople, simply because the constitution doesnt say "no gay marrage" doesnt mean that they intended marriage to include homosexuals. I have no problem with gay people, but I dont believe that gay marriage is appropriate. I understand that they may want to be able to apply for insurance benifits and other privledges that come with marriage. I believe that they should be granted many of them, but I dont think that what they have should be termed the same thing as what I would share with a man.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/25/2008 8:42:31 AM

      Aliciainsd,

      Unfortunately, your knowledge of how our courts are supposed to work is seriously lacking. Just because the majority of citizens in a state want something does ntomake it legal or constiutional (or for that matter just). Before the US Supreme Court ruled, anti-miscegination laws (those laws that prohbitited people of different races from getting married) were supported by the majority of Americans. The will of majority of the citizens is often the will of tyranny and injustice.

      The Courts in the US are specificially the final arbitter of what is valid legally. They not only have the right to rule as they did, they have the specific obligation, goiven the Equal Protection clause. And they are not appointed to represent the people (since by "the people" you are effectively saying "the majority".) They are also to protect the minorities, which is exactly what they did here.

      And obviously you do have a problem with gay people since you want them to be treated as second class citizens. They are asking for EQUAL rights, not special rights.

      The issue is equal rights and equal justice. When one group is denied equality the entire country is lessened and demeaned. You have not given one valid, non-religious (as religious reasons are not valid in US law) to oppose equal marriage rights. In fact, you have not given one reason at all.

  • Posted By: sjbrock80 @ 06/17/2008 2:38:54 PM

    Employers should have the right to deny benefits to gay couples if they do not support gay marriage. I will absolutely not give any health benefits to gay marriage partners. The states can vote all they want on what is right and wrong in their opinions. My company won't conform to this nonsense.

    • Posted By: onepoker @ 06/18/2008 11:56:57 AM

      Yea and you shouldn't have to pay blacks either. your an idiot.

      • Posted By: aliciainsd @ 06/24/2008 6:09:44 PM

        I love the way gay supporters try to compare gays to blacks, because black marriage was illegal in this country at what point? Being black or any minority is a skin colour issue, gay is a lifestyle CHOICE. You cant compare the too just because you think it will give you politcal support and make others appear racist.

    • Posted By: sjpersonal @ 06/17/2008 2:42:42 PM

      Then get ready for the lawsuits to begin. I would really like to know why this upsets you so? How does it hurt you?

      • Posted By: sjbrock80 @ 06/17/2008 2:49:39 PM

        It upsets me because I don't support gay marriage but will have to spend extra money for gay employees to have their "spouses" added to their benefits policies.

        I'll just fire the employees before it gets that far.

        • Posted By: TheVigil @ 06/17/2008 5:22:09 PM

          Chances that you'll realize any savings are quite low.

          Firing an employee for sexual preference in this day and age will get you sued right out of your socks for unlawful discrimination - especially if anyone finds this comment on a message board. Multiple firings will probably cost you your company.

          • Posted By: NickiDrea @ 06/18/2008 10:13:51 PM

            Um, actually, unless there is a state law involved that prohibits discrimination based on sexual preference- and by the way, the vast majority of states don't have such prohibitions- then it is perfectly permissible to fire someone because of their sexual preference. After all, most states are at-will employment states, so they can fire you for pretty much anything at any time. Sexual orientation is not a protected class under the 14th Amendment and therefore is not treated the same as race/religion/gender, etc. Some states (California is obviously one of them) do treat sexual orientation as a protected class, but they are ion the extreme minority. It would certainly be bad business for an employer to fire someone because he/she is gay, but it is not necessarily illegal.

            Sorry for the long explanation, but I practice discrimination law so I thought I throw a little education out there.

        • Posted By: Kylinne @ 06/17/2008 5:04:12 PM

          Huh. So, really, you should just fire all married employees, or employees with kids. Especially married employees with kids - just think how much _that_ adds to your health insurance bill every year. All those braces, kids falling off swing sets breaking their arms, prenatal care costs, c-sections: oh, you definitely don't want any married men that have those sorts of concerns on your payroll. Then there's the single parents, always having to pick their kids up from school, leaving on time at the end of the day in order to go home and take care of their kids. So, no single parents - they're going to cost you money on health insurance, plus they have concerns other than work. Don't forget about female employees going on maternity leave. You should definitely fire all female employees before they have the chance to get pregnant and waste thousands of dollars in insurance on their pregnancies, maternity leaves, and all the sick time they'll use up taking care of their children. Maybe you just shouldn't hire women at all. Women's rights and the Family Medical Leave Act be damned.

          Looking at it that way, single gay men might be your best option as employees. They're the least likely to get married or have children. You might be able to have employees that for years will be dedicated only to your company, with no outside worries like families or children. Just think how much more productive that would be.

        • Posted By: summer4077 @ 06/17/2008 3:22:38 PM

          Ok, so what about employees that smoke? Are you going to deny them benefits because you don't agree with them? Or people that decide to have children, color their hair, wear purple on Tuesdays...you get the point.
          Hopefully we'll have a universal health care plan at some point, so you bigots will lose your only somewhat credible shred of an argument. Thank goodness that 68% of the younger generation have decided to accept everyone as humans, regardless of their sexual preference.

  • Posted By: Timothy A. Bear @ 06/18/2008 1:46:47 AM

    An anti-Gay marriage cartoon-

    http://faithmouse.blogspot.com/2008/06/anti-gay-marriage-cartoon-gone-awry.html

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/20/2008 1:38:45 PM

      That website is a wonderful place for mindless fools to gather and drool over their garbage.

  • Posted By: timrogers @ 06/19/2008 1:56:38 AM

    Alot of us heterosexuals welcome gays into the unique pain of marrige, because we know the exquisite pain of divorce will follow. The gays deserve to share the pain and will soon realize the bureaucracy discriminates against no one but screws all equally. Give me two gay lawyers for a ' gay to gay' divorce and I will be in heaven. Cable TV will never be the same. Gays in high definition all day, every day: I can't think of another development more positve for gay viewers. The rest of us will have to watch old , subversively gay, movies and resist the best we can. Get married , be happy, and start the divorce countdown!

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 3:01:32 PM

      tim,

      I don't know about that. Given how long and hard the gay community has fought for this simlpe human right, they may not make the horrific hash of it that we starights have. Yes there will be gay and lesbian divorces, but I wonder if it will be in the staggering 50% range that we have created. And it is unlikely that they will fall for the religious idiocy that marriage is the only place for sexual relations. They realize that civil marriage is ONLY about legal rights granted by the state. Equal rights at that.

      • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 3:24:23 PM

        OK, my typing is a mess.

  • Posted By: GreatDane @ 06/19/2008 12:05:12 AM

    The biggest "fallout" is the foundation of this wholesale charade: the fact that the California Supreme Court took it upon themselves to overturn the clearly declared will of the people of California who had voted via a legal referendum against the same sex union crap. Something is going terribly awry in this country as our courts become more and more activist in overturning elections (and I'm NOT talking about Gore--the man LOST in every recount that was held), legislating from the bench, tweaking laws to suit the campaign of the moment, etc. There's something terribly wrong going on here, and this ignoring of the election results by the California Supreme Court is potentially as evil as the thing they have perpetrated--legalizing the evil called sodomy. Two separate issues, but one reflecting on the other. God help the United States. The next time you hear some public official sign off with the obligatory "God Bless America" stop and evaluate whether that official is asking America to bless God--or is simply a part of "spit in God's face and then ask Him to bless us" crowd.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 7:39:39 AM

      The courts did what they were supposed to do. Prevent the majroity from denying equal rights to the minority. As has beeen shown int he past, the majority opinion is not always the correct or constitutional one. The courts did it in the desegregation rulings, the reversing of anti-miscegination laws and the like. In all of those rulings the was an outcry from the mindless masses about subverting the will of the people and going against "god's plans and rules". Luckily the courts saw through that garbage.

      And as usual, you are demosntrating the ignorance of law and definitions that most of your ilk possess. Sodomy is not just anal sex. It is also oral sex. It is also not jsut a homosexual act as both methods have always been practiced by heterosexuals. And since you seem to focus on the bible, the term came form teh story of S'dom and G'marah (Sodom and Gemorrah for those of you who are unable to read TaNaKH in the original [and un mistranslated by the Christians] Hebrew) . It was the idea of the sexual acts that the men of the city of S'Dom forced others to engage in. Specifically when the men of S'Dom demanded that Lot offer his two daughters to the two "angels". So you see it is NOT primarily anal sex. It can include rape and other things. And as a side note. S'Dom and G'Marah were NOT destroyed because of homosexuality. They were destroyed due the baseless hatred that its residents continually demonstrated. The ideas and not only the actions. That has always been the Jewish perspective and since the TaNaKH is first and foremost a Jewish religious text, THEY get the final word on what it means. In case you do not understand what baseless hstred means. Look in the mirror about your views on the LGBT community and gay rights. IT is a clear example.

      You do not have the most basic understnading of how the founding father set up our form of government. They understood that oft-times, the will of the majority is the will of tyranny.

      As for reading scriptures, I used to teach them. I may well know them (especially the TaNaKH) better than you. That does not change the fact that they and god are simply human creations. If you want to follow them, that is your right. As long as they inspire you to treat your fellow human bieng and the planet well they serve a useful purpose. But is seems that for you they serve a useless purpose. To inspire hatred and intolerance.

      • Posted By: GreatDane @ 06/19/2008 8:21:44 AM

        Was this logic and authority you attribute to the courts the same logic they were using in the Dred Scott decision? Protecting the minority from the majority?

        Your reply contains many references apparently intended to correct or educate me about what sodomy and homosexuality are and are not--obviously assuming the existence of such definitions in my post. I did not say or claim any of the things you attribute to me about the nature of sodomy and homosexuality.

        I appreciate your willingness to let me "follow" the Scriptures. I had been assuming all along that freedom of religion was one of the things guaranteed me under the constitution, but I really appreciate you stepping forward to help me out there.

        However, I see you have a caveat with it, "As long as they inspire (me) to treat my fellow human bieng (sic) and the planet well they serve a useful purpose." Oh. So even though I have that constitutional freedom (yet), it is still subject to your evaluation as to whether "they serve a useful purpose".

        When do you ever rest? I can only imagine that you are busy 28 hours a day evaluating which religious practices are "serving a useful purpose".

        I agree with your point that often the will of the majority is the will of tyranny. That applies to the majority on the Supreme Court of the State of California. It also applies to the majority of the Supreme Court of the United States, as they authorized in the womb murder of over 30 million and counting babies. So yes indeed, the will of the majority often is the will of tyranny.

        Why do I suspect that you see the polygamous sexual abuse of young girls in the communes as "serving a useful purpose?"

        Incidentally, in the book of Romans, it is clearly spelled out that God's wrath against all manner of wickedness will indeed "serve a useful purpose" in declaring and revealing God's glory.

        Well, like I said, God isn't holding His breath waiting for your approval. Or your conviction that He "serves a usful purpose". I'm so very grateful He isn't.

        • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 9:47:21 AM

          "Was this logic and authority you attribute to the courts the same logic they were using in the Dred Scott decision? Protecting the minority from the majority? "

          There was a time when the court made bad decisions. Over time they realized that their obligation was in fact protecting minorities as well. That majority will is often wrong. It took time but the court overturned the Dred Scott decision. Luckily the court has tended to avoid such poor decisions in recent years. Most, but not all, of the those decisions were made in the 1800's.

          "Your reply contains many references apparently intended to correct or educate me about what sodomy and homosexuality are and are not--obviously assuming the existence of such definitions in my post. I did not say or claim any of the things you attribute to me about the nature of sodomy and homosexuality."

          Actually you wrote "by the California Supreme Court is potentially as evil as the thing they have perpetrated--legalizing the evil called sodomy." That statement allows that presumption that I made.


          "I appreciate your willingness to let me "follow" the Scriptures. I had been assuming all along that freedom of religion was one of the things guaranteed me under the constitution, but I really appreciate you stepping forward to help me out there.

          However, I see you have a caveat with it, "As long as they inspire (me) to treat my fellow human bieng (sic) and the planet well they serve a useful purpose." Oh. So even though I have that constitutional freedom (yet), it is still subject to your evaluation as to whether "they serve a useful purpose".

          I was not saying that my definition is granting you permission at all. You have a constitutional right to believe as you will and I would never deny you that right. But you do not have the right to force your RELIGIOUS beliefs on others or to make US law based on those beliefs (since not everyone who is Christian believes what you do).

          What I was saying that although I personally find religion (and the idea of god) to be man-made fiction and of no universal or personal need, I recognize that some people do need it. And I was saying that it is used by some people BOTH for positive use (inspiring people to treat their fellow and the planet well) as well as for negative things (segregations laws, anti-gay laws and violence, terrorism, etc.)

          • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 10:30:20 AM

            Since god and religion are both completely human-made constructs, humans will use them to justify their own actions, whether those actions are positive or negative. Now religious people who do positive things often need religion as an impetus or catalyst to do those psotive things. But I would guess that if there were no concept of god or religion, many, but not all would find another catalyst to do what they do. On the other hand, those who want to do negative things use religion and god as an excuse for their actions (mostly after either comminting the act or deciding to commit it). For that type of person, where there no concept of religion or god, they would still willingly and eagerly commit their negative actions. They would just figure out another excuse.

        • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 9:48:30 AM

          "When do you ever rest? I can only imagine that you are busy 28 hours a day evaluating which religious practices are "serving a useful purpose".

          Actually it does not take nearly that long, and I have had years of both study and teaching to get to my determination.

          "I agree with your point that often the will of the majority is the will of tyranny. That applies to the majority on the Supreme Court of the State of California. It also applies to the majority of the Supreme Court of the United States, as they authorized in the womb murder of over 30 million and counting babies. So yes indeed, the will of the majority often is the will of tyranny. "

          Not at all. The will of the majority is used to refer to the public not to the courts. That is simply the way it is.
          As for abortion since they are not alive they cannot be murdered. But that is another subject.

          "Why do I suspect that you see the polygamous sexual abuse of young girls in the communes as "serving a useful purpose?"

          Then you suspect wrong (not at all surprising). They are a prime example of how religion, especially fundamentalist religions, are damaging to civilized society, and how religion is often used to brainwash the young and vulnerable.

          "Incidentally, in the book of Romans, it is clearly spelled out that God's wrath against all manner of wickedness will indeed "serve a useful purpose" in declaring and revealing God's glory."

          What it says in that man-made book is of no value as far as I am concerned. It has been sued as an excuse for far too much hatred and violence. Especially by people who are so stupid as to take it literally.


    • Posted By: GreatDane @ 06/19/2008 12:16:56 AM

      And I'll "reply" to my own post here just to get the jump on one more anti-God comment from someone. Those of you who don't care for God or His righteousness, there's a little itty bitty fact you might want to keep in mind. He actually isn't taking polls or holding His breath waiting to see if He can win you over to His position. That's one of the basics about being God. He doesn't need our approval.

      And it's very silly that so many of you can quote "He who is without sin throw the first stone". That is truly such an elementary playground taunt that clearly demonstrates your failure to understand that those who think the righteousness of God is a significant factor to be considered are the last ones to say they have no sin. On the contrary. But very often, they know what it is to yield in the presence of a holy God and learn about being forgiven.

      Anyway....keep in mind that God is not really too freaked out over your taunting of righteousness. He actually has seen it all before. Again. And again. And again. And when He deals with sin and exposes it in His time, guess what? He always wins. But if you actually bothered to read and remember any of the Scriptures beyond what you need for your own purposes, you would already know that.

  • Posted By: BoGilles @ 06/18/2008 8:31:05 PM

    Shame has nothing to do with hate.
    If God had wanted homosexuality, He would have created us with a penis and a vagina.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/19/2008 7:50:42 AM

      Once again you demonstrate a complete ignorance of what homosexuality is. It is, first and foremost the attraction. Also same-sex marriage laws are not just for gay men they are for lesbian women too. And they have vaginas and get to use dildos.

      Anal sex is NOT a requirement for homosexuality. And since anal sex is NOT an exclusively homosexual act, then your god would not have given women anuses either.

      There are many gay couples who do not engage in anal sex. Some do not engage in oral sex. They are fully and actively homosexual and lesbian couples because they are in a loving and committed relationship with their spouses/partners.

      But then again, god and religion is not a valid reason for US law. So what your god may or may not have wanted is irrelevant.

      And not everyone agrees what "god wants". There is not even a consensus among Christains

  • Posted By: jonstorm @ 06/18/2008 10:15:47 PM

    Polygamy was outlawed by Octavian Caesar shortly after he took over the Roman Empire. The problem was not the men. It was the women. Wealthy men in Rome had numerous wives and many wives would poison the offspring of their co-wives to insure that their children's inheritance would not be split. Octavian decided that civilized society could not endure this way and polygamy was outlawed. When Rome became the Holy Roman Empire the law remained intact and so it has been with Western Civilization since.
    .

  • Posted By: oceans @ 06/18/2008 12:56:51 PM

    I acknowledge the confusion inherent in redefining state laws, benefit policies and procedures, and I especially acknowledge the feelings of people who are against same-sex marriage. But laws effecting all of us must not be mandated according to the feelings and beliefs of some of us. Marriage is a civil matter; a government-issued license is required, religious rituals are not. This is America, and it wouldn't be if we all held the same convictions. The "Golden Rule" doesn't end with 'except'.

  • Posted By: Jim F. @ 06/18/2008 4:25:14 PM

    You want a definitive argument against same-sex marriages? Here it is. The basis for allowing same-sex marriages is non-discrimination and equal protection regardless of sexual orientation. This same basis can eventually be used to demand that bisexuals be allowed to marry both their male and female partner. This is equal protection isn't it? Their sexual orientation is bisexual. I can hear the arguments now: 'Bisexuals were born that way! Why do you deny them their happiness?' How about, 'There are more adults to raise the children so the bisexual triad marriage is actually better than a two person marriage.' When bisexual marriages win their way in the courts with liberal activist judges, the polygamists will be close behind. IF MARRIAGE CAN MEAN ANYTHING, IT MEANS NOTHING!!!!!

    • Posted By: Zig Zag @ 06/18/2008 8:04:36 PM

      Don't be such an idiot. Marriage was originally a religious ceremony between a man and a woman. And because I am a firm believer in the absolute seperation of church and state, I believe each religion has the right to define who can and who cannot be married.

      But over time, we attached various legal rights to the marriage ceremony. Those legal rights should be available to every American citizen - straight, gay or bisexual.

      If we want to redefine marriage as a purely religous ceremony, where each religion can define who can and cannot be married, and define something new - such as a civil union - which confers the legal rights (and obligations) to two individuals who are committed to each other, I am fine with that.

      What I am not fine with is discriminating against and denying some American's the legal rights and protections that are available to others. That is not what this country is about. It was not too long ago that many states prohibited interacial marriages. We now look back upon that as silly. A hunderd years from now we will look back on this in the same way.

      Any idiot who says this will open the door to polygamists marriages or other such nonsense is exactly that, an idiot. It's fear mongering at its best.

  • Posted By: Jim F. @ 06/18/2008 4:41:17 PM

    Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender activitsts are happy with the incremental redefining of marriage if this is what it will take. Of course, they will never make that public. If the public knew their true intentions, the once sympathetic public would turn against these activists and same-sex marriages because they will soon figure out that, IF MARRIAGE CAN MEAN ANYTHING, IT MEANS NOTHING!!!!!!!

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/18/2008 7:55:53 PM

      Actually, when it comes to civil marriages, it only means what the courts allow it mean.

      Outside of the legalistic aspect granting rights, as long it means a loving comitted relationship. that is ALL that matters. Marriage has always had incremental redefinitions. In the 1940's marriage did not include different races.

  • Posted By: BoGilles @ 06/18/2008 5:22:44 PM

    I was ashamed to see my governor walked in the gay parade holding his daughter hand. I'm so glad I did not vote for him. He is a disgrace to the Commonwealth.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/18/2008 7:16:53 PM

      Actually I would argue that you are more of disgrace to both your Commonwealth and the human species. Hatred is always disgraceful.

  • Posted By: singularization @ 06/18/2008 7:06:30 AM

    you canalways tell what kind of mentality you are dealing with when an un-educated ignoramus extrapolates the argument to people marrying their underage children, a farm goat, a car battery or a toaster .. i guess when you are insecure in your own straight marriage, then you need to interfere with someone else's joy and relationship. The constitution DEMANDS equlaity for ALL it's citizens, .. and not let MOB RULES Majority with a Torch and PitchForkk Mentality decide who the Constitution Equally Protects ..

    • Posted By: RetiredMarine @ 06/18/2008 8:31:25 AM

      That is fine. Let people do what makes them happy. But how do you justify going after one group of people because of their sexual choices, stating that it violates the law (i.e. Polygamy) and let others have their way (same sex marriage) which also violates laws (sodomy)? I am not arguing for the plurar marriage, but it does seem hypocritical. That is their "sexual preference" just as it is the "sexual preference" of the gay community to have same sex partners.

      It is amazing the "mentality" of some who will argue against one group of people who want to be happy in their choices while crying about not being allowed to enjoy their choices......

      • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/18/2008 7:06:49 PM

        As I pointed out previously, since civil marriage laws are NOT about sex (in fact marriage is not just about sex) that is not a valid part of the argument. Civil marriages are first and foremost about the granting of certain legal standings to the spouses. These include (but are nto limited to:
        1. Property rights. Both dealing with estates and living spouse property and pensions.
        2. End of life issues such as the right to decide how and where a spouses remiains will be dealt with (barring a legally executed living will)
        3. Medical rights issues- including allowing the spouse to determine what treatment an incapacitated spouse is to receive (assuming that a medical directive statement as not be legally executed.)


        In current marriages, the spouse is granted defacto rights that must be obeyed unless the previously mentioned countermanding documents have been executed.

        In polygamous marraiges, unless these issues were adddressed in detailed and legally executed documents, the resulting legal problme and would make legal rulings such cases all but impossible. Mst polygamous religions do not recognize a need for them, being extremist religions that do not recognize the state's authority to set rules for them. Thereby the state is well within its rights to proscribe against recognizing said legal quagmires.

        And it is no more a sexual preference than heterosexuality is sexual preference. It is a biological orientation.

        Also, in November 2003 in the case Lawrence and Garner v. Texas, the US Supreme Court invalidated anti-sodomy laws. Therefore that part of your argument is automatically invalid.

      • Posted By: greenwolf22 @ 06/18/2008 11:06:06 AM

        Civil Rights is constantly moving the line on what should be acceptable. 41 years ago it was a fight for blacks and whites to marry, 54 years ago it was a fight against segregation. Women's sufferage, rights for blacks, emancipation; the list goes on. Maybe there will come a day when plural marriage is a hot topic for civil rights. I'll admit I'm not that enlightened yet but opening up marriage to same-sex couples seems right to me. Who knows maybe we'll see the day when people are fighting for rights to have plural, same-sex marriages. what a hot potato that will be!!

  • Posted By: crysnew @ 06/17/2008 10:24:33 PM

    Under equal protection, neither the Commonwealth of Massachusetts nor the State of California can deny marriage to polygamists, NAMBLA, or those who wish to marry inanimate objects or animals. (A woman in CA "married" her house, and a woman in England "married" a dolphin.)
    There are other ways to obtain the same legal rights without opening Pandora's Box.

    • Posted By: gablegal @ 06/18/2008 3:34:02 AM

      Actually, you are wrong. Inanimate objects, animals and children (in most places, under the age of eighteen years) cannot legally enter into contracts, which is that marriage really is........a legal contract.

      • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 06/18/2008 6:42:55 PM

        Also, because civil marriage are primarily focused on estate, end-of -life, medical , and property issues, polygamous marriages can be legitimately prohibitted due to the extreme complexity of resolving those issues with more than one spouse (two or more current wives or husbands each wanting to have the final say in those issues.)

  • Posted By: GregHere @ 06/18/2008 6:42:09 PM

    The four months between now and the November Election may be just enough time for the Right Wing Fundamentalist Groups to bring forward enough fear and hate to put a stop to the California Initative but not too much time, like a year, for people to see that it is a personal freedom issue and just allow people to mind their own business...........time will make it all a thing that is rediculous to be concerned about by June of 2009.

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