The Latin liturgy is beautiful. This is greatly needed in The United States due to the large amount of Liturgical abuses occuring in masses across the country. What is sad is that the average Catholic that doesn't know very much about their faith or the liturgy cannot see the beauty in it.
Thank Pope Benedict for Summorum Pontificum.
RELIGION
Latin Days Are Here Again?
Pope Benedict wants to revive the Latin mass in Roman Catholic worship. But what exactly does that mean?
Jun 19, 2008 | Updated: 11:19 a.m. ET Jun 19, 2008
Member Comments
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Posted By: phugoid @ 06/28/2008 10:53:31 PM
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Posted By: R Lawrence @ 06/23/2008 2:57:45 PM
As a boy I served as an alter boy when mass was in given in Latin. I fondly remember those days and how wonderful the mass was given by the prist and recieved by church members. I am in full support of having the mass given in its' present form but also would like it to be presented in Latin again.
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Posted By: Hamht @ 06/21/2008 1:41:37 AM
"But neither the "yes" nor the "no" quite fits the conventional speculations in several recent media reports following off-the-cuff remarks to a small Catholic association in Great Britain by a Vatican official."
The Vatican official is Cardinal Castrillón and his remarks were not "off-the-cuff." Said remarks were uttered during a press conference.
Cardinal Castrillón, compared to Mr. Weigel, is better situated to reveal Pope Benedict XVI's thinking regarding Summorum Pontificum. Therefore, I will take Cardinal Castrillón's remarks seriously. -
Posted By: Rich Leonardi @ 06/20/2008 9:43:24 PM
Although Mr. Weigel comes to the right conclusion -- that the goal is the overall rescralization of Catholic liturgy -- along the way he manages to step in it several times.
First, Salt of the Earth is a book-length interview, not a memoir. Second, very few of the laity who are part of the "loose-knit coalition" behind the reform of the reform would agree that any sort of re-sacralization is "evident" in most parishes. Sure, we don't see as many "clown Masses" as we once did, but the absence of such grotesque abuses should hardly be a standard of fidelity.
The idea that the "overwhelming majority" of Catholics have "welcomed the new form of the mass that became normative in 1970" is just silly; the majority of Catholics don't even attend Mass. From weekly attendance rates of at least 60% before the Council, they have settled to around 33% -- at most. -
Posted By: robfromhc @ 06/20/2008 9:24:01 PM
Let's enjoy fruitful prayer- the Latin Mass with all it's beauty leads, at least for me, to fruitful prayer. With the maturation of "verncular" music, etc., we have another liturgical path to prayer that should not be ignored.
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Posted By: robfromhc @ 06/20/2008 9:21:50 PM
As a church musician with 40 years experience, I believe we can find a middle ground in liturgical worship. I think it wonderful that the Latin Mass could be revived in all it's glory. I also feel that, in recent years, we've seen great improvement in "vernacular" music which is not to be ignored. I honestly believe we can reach a point where the best of both liturgical worlds can be fruitful worship for all.
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Posted By: christinaduke @ 06/20/2008 4:55:47 PM
Anyone who has experienced the beauty of the Latin Mass will feel very empty sitting in a congregation of the fractured "mass" that is practiced widely. Something you have not experienced should not be riduculed or rejected without first knowing what you are objecting to. The Latin Missal has the English translation on the opposite page, so it is easy to follow and after a while you learn by repetition anyway.
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Posted By: justsomeone @ 06/20/2008 2:20:18 PM
It would be wonderful to go back to the Latin Mass.
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Posted By: Hamht @ 06/20/2008 1:46:49 PM
George Weigel stated that "the overwhelming majority of Catholics throughout the world have welcomed the new form of the mass that became normative in 1970, a mass celebrated entirely in English (or Spanish or French or Polish, or whatever language the congregation speaks)."
That is incorrect. The majority of Latin Church Catholics have walked away from the "new form of Mass."
Nearly 80 to 85 percent of Latin Church Catholics refuse each week to assist at the "new form of Mass." -
Posted By: Hamht @ 06/20/2008 1:46:05 PM
George Weigel stated that "the overwhelming majority of Catholics throughout the world have welcomed the new form of the mass that became normative in 1970, a mass celebrated entirely in English (or Spanish or French or Polish, or whatever language the congregation speaks)."
That is incorrect. The majority of Latin Church Catholics have walked away from the "new form of Mass."
Nearly 80 to 85 percent of Latin Church Catholics refuse each week to assist at the "new form of Mass." -
Posted By: ndrock @ 06/20/2008 1:02:08 PM
Going backwards again. Who reality gives a "You know what" about Latin Mass in the country except a few radicals? When I go to church I want it said in MY LAUNGAGE! I want my children and grandchildren to love the Mass like I do which is one that I understand. I got nothing out of the Mass as a child of the 50's, was so thrilled to finial have a Mass that I could relate to, now a bunch of old men living in the past, want to change that again. Just typical for a church run by old men, and not equally by women. It is just another one of many a ploy to keep women and children in their place.
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Posted By: phugoid @ 06/28/2008 10:59:31 PM
ndrock, As a Catholic you seem to have a poor understanding of church doctrine,with your comments about females and children. Learn a little about your faith and you would see the beauty in the Latin Mass. Just get over the fact that men run the show. that is the way it has always been and will never change. You should be greatful that you belong to the one remaining church that hasnt given into the culture today and allowing gays , women etc.. to become priests and soforth.
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Posted By: jazzmanjim @ 06/20/2008 1:24:38 PM
Thank you. That was also my feeling going to daily Mass when in Catholic grade school in the '60's. I really wondered why the missalette's back then had the Latin and then (right next to it) the English translation. I also wondered why the congregation was not allowed to participate (in a Low Mass). Sheesh, people would pray the Rosary (a wonderful devotion which I do daily - just not at Mass) during Mass.
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Posted By: DaddyDJ @ 06/20/2008 12:36:09 PM
I've read alot of posting that speak to the number of Catholic that just don't attend. #1, a true Catholic Mass
is one that existed prior to 1958. Since that time and that of Vatician 2, the Catholic Mass has been changed
so that it now resembles a Protestant service in order to playcate the congregation. It's the " I'm okay...you're okay " service to appeal to everyone. #2, the Mass is not supposed to be something that is " easy " or " comfortable ". We are there as a sacrifice to our Lord, not to visit or sign hymns to make us feel good.
We are there for confession ( which isn't supposed to be easy ) and to present ourselves to our Lord
and ' HIS " will. The Catholic church was the 1st church, ( historically ) and all the rest are splinter groups
that left becuase they didn't like this or that. To be honest, we are not supposed to " like " the fact that their is a Priest telling you that you have sinned, nor are we suppose to like doing God's work. We " are " supposed to obey God's word and his will. We have become way too lazy in our church going and duties.....we only do it
if we get something out of it..or in other words " What's in it for me...." Guess what people ? Wake up to the notion that church in not supposed to be comfortable, it is not what we get out of the service, but what service we give our Lord, and do we truely walk the walk of our Lord or just pretend to on Sunday because it makes us look good.-
Posted By: phugoid @ 06/28/2008 11:05:52 PM
Enter Your CommentDaddyDj,
Great Post. you couldn't have explained it any better.
The biggest problem today is that laity have heard sugarcoated homilies way too long. Priests need to step up and quit worrying about offending someone.
I think Father Corapi type priests would straighten up the mess the liberal priests have created and maybe then people would realize what they have and would quit leaving the church for feel good protestant churches.
Pax Christi. -
Posted By: suprvulcan @ 06/20/2008 3:43:14 PM
Your not supposed to like going to church? Your not supposed to like doing gods work? What type of church do you want? One the forces it will on its followers willing or not, or one the embrasses its followers and makes it an enjoyable experience for everyone? Worshipping God should not be a burden that is forced upon us by the leaders of the church. Worshipping God should be a lot of things but never a burden as you imply, if that is the church you want then you can attend by yourself. I would like to attend a mass that I can follow along with in english, that I can celebrate my faith joyfully with my fellow catholics. Performing the mass in a language that only the priest speaks while his back is to the people does not do anything for making the people feel they are part of the celebration. We should feed part of the celebration, worshipping god and celebrating the mass a group as it is now gives me great joy, it also fills me with peace and understanding that I take with me during my daily travels. There was a reason things were changed, remember that. People want to feel part of the celebration, they want to be able to see and understand the priest during the ceremony and they want more fulfillment from the church-going experience. Worshipping God is not supposed to be a onesided experience, you should be able to draw joy, happiness, understanding and peace from it. If you want it to be a burden, then your on your own.
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Posted By: jazzmanjim @ 06/20/2008 1:19:43 PM
Sorry. The Mass of Paul VI (the Ordinary Form) and the Mass of John XXXIII (the Extraordinary form) are both True Catholic Masses. Both are a True re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary.
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Posted By: Victrix @ 06/20/2008 11:34:56 AM
Some members of the first century congregation were given gifts to speak in tongues, or different languages. What is the Bible's counsel on speaking a foreign language in a congregation where no one else understands it? :(1 Corinthians 14:27-28) . . .And if someone speaks in a tongue, let it be limited to two or three at the most, and in turns; and let someone translate. 28 But if there be no translator, let him keep silent in the congregation and speak to himself and to God.
Thus speaking in a tongue no one understands in Church is clearly not Biblical and goes against the healthful teaching of truth found in the Bible.
Remember why they did the mass in Latin to begin with, to keep the masses ignorant, and keep control and power over them. -
Posted By: EveryMonday @ 06/20/2008 11:30:33 AM
I find it interesting that the Catholic church considers such questions. In an age when many churches have tried to update and modernize to attract new parishioners, the Holy Orthodox Faith (from which the Catholic Church split in the 11th century) has floated above it all. From the very start of Orthodox evangelism, the bishops instructed missionaries to conduct Divine Liturgy in the language of the native population. They were therefore nourished in the Word in a language they could understand (although I would argue that while we do go to church to learn, we attend Divine Liturgy primarily to worship, a practice that seems to be lost to many Christians). The Orthodox church is not engaged in these struggles that Roman Catholics face, simply because the Divine Liturgy has been celebrated by all Orthodox Christians worldwide in a form that has not changed. The consistency of the reverent and holy worship has remained without compromise. For those seeking heavenly worship, seek out an Orthodox church! In the United States, Antiochian Orthodox churches worship in English..
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Posted By: EveryMonday @ 06/20/2008 11:30:20 AM
I find it interesting that the Catholic church considers such questions. In an age when many churches have tried to update and modernize to attract new parishioners, the Holy Orthodox Faith (from which the Catholic Church split in the 11th century) has floated above it all. From the very start of Orthodox evangelism, the bishops instructed missionaries to conduct Divine Liturgy in the language of the native population. They were therefore nourished in the Word in a language they could understand (although I would argue that while we do go to church to learn, we attend Divine Liturgy primarily to worship, a practice that seems to be lost to many Christians). The Orthodox church is not engaged in these struggles that Roman Catholics face, simply because the Divine Liturgy has been celebrated by all Orthodox Christians worldwide in a form that has not changed. The consistency of the reverent and holy worship has remained without compromise. For those seeking heavenly worship, seek out an Orthodox church! In the United States, Antiochian Orthodox churches worship in English..
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Posted By: EveryMonday @ 06/20/2008 11:29:37 AM
I find it interesting that the Catholic church considers such questions. In an age when many churches have tried to update and modernize to attract new parishioners, the Holy Orthodox Faith (from which the Catholic Church split in the 11th century) has floated above it all. From the very start of Orthodox evangelism, the bishops instructed missionaries to conduct Divine Liturgy in the language of the native population. They were therefore nourished in the Word in a language they could understand (although I would argue that while we do go to church to learn, we attend Divine Liturgy primarily to worship, a practice that seems to be lost to many Christians). The Orthodox church is not engaged in these struggles that Roman Catholics face, simply because the Divine Liturgy has been celebrated by all Orthodox Christians worldwide in a form that has not changed. The consistency of the reverent and holy worship has remained without compromise. For those seeking heavenly worship, seek out an Orthodox church! In the United States, Antiochian Orthodox churches worship in English..
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Posted By: Silvernail @ 06/20/2008 9:52:44 AM
As a midwestern Methodist-raised adult, I found the Latin mass to be quite a mystery the first time I attended one. After having a year of Latin in high school (which few of us passed), The Latin masses I attended subsequently were just comprehensible enough to get the gist of what was being said. I was struck by a feeling of profoundness, of enormous depth of spirit, and recognition that what was concieved by me as God was as incomplete as my understanding of the Word as spoken in Latin. It created a tremendous feeling of awe, and a spiritual profoundness which I had sought for years. Yes, hearing a message in English is good, to hear the ideas and perspectives of those learned people who lead other denominations, but the attendance of worship in traditional earlier forms gives a depth which I only comprehend at a level deeper than the conscious level; it opens unknown doors which lend a profoundness to my limited understanding of God. To comment further as a non-Catholic is out of the realm of appropriateness for me, other than to say that in my opinion the modern irreverent forms alluded to are not for me, but if others are moved and improved by them, bless them!
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Posted By: Alwayslearning @ 06/20/2008 9:21:01 AM
Non Catholic here
Isn't the point of church is to learn about God, His Love, and how He wants us to live? How can this be accomplished if the service is in Latin. People have trouble understanding the Word in their own language. What is the point of Latin? Would turning back to latin qualify as putting too much stock in ceremony instead of the actual nurishment of the Word. How are people to be fulfilled and know the Word if they don't hear it? -
Posted By: Alwayslearning @ 06/20/2008 9:17:40 AM
Non Catholic here, Question
What is the point of having mass in latin if no one understands what is being said. Isn't the point of church is to be nourished by the word of God? Are you being nourished if all you hear are "pretty sounds" with no meaning to you? Isn't it better to understand the Word instead of ritual?-
Posted By: NorthBridgePatriot @ 06/20/2008 9:21:01 AM
At the Latin Masses I've been to, the ritual part of the Mass (which doesn't change) is in Latin, but the readings and the sermon are in English. Thus, you can both follow the Mass, get the delivered message, and also be exposed to thei history of the church a little bit. Others may have had different experiences, but that's mine, and that's why I like it!
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Posted By: DwightJ @ 06/20/2008 8:23:03 AM
"The overwhelming majority of Catholics throughout the world have welcomed the new form of the mass that became normative in 1970". Which is to say, the majority of those who still bother to come to Mass. The older generation of this remnant are profoundly disappointed with the Church, expecting that it would be a democracy by now, with women and married priests, and clapping throughout the Mass. The younger generation comes, but aren't quite sure why. They usually wander away, especially when their "first" marriage turns sour.
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Posted By: DwightJ @ 06/20/2008 8:22:37 AM
"The overwhelming majority of Catholics throughout the world have welcomed the new form of the mass that became normative in 1970". Which is to say, the majority of those who still bother to come to Mass. The older generation of this remnant are profoundly disappointed with the Church, expecting that it would be a democracy by now, with women and married priests, and clapping throughout the Mass. The younger generation comes, but aren't quite sure why. They usually wander away, especially when their "first" marriage turns sour.
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Posted By: jazzmanjim @ 06/20/2008 8:57:35 AM
Um, my parish (3300 famlies) is packed every Sunday.
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Posted By: NorthBridgePatriot @ 06/20/2008 8:13:23 AM
I think the Latin Mass is great. Even though I don't speak Latin (at all) you can still follow the Mass pretty easily if you're a regular church-goer, and it's pretty cool to see and hear. The Latin Mass, for me, reminds me t hat I'm part of something old, something wonderful, and something greater than myself. I like that, and thus I welcome the return of the Latin Mass.
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Posted By: jazzmanjim @ 06/20/2008 9:00:10 AM
This is the same as taking my son (adopted from Vietnam in '98) to a Vietnameese language parish here in St Louis. Really cool as a one-time experience but not something I would want to do on a regular basis
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Posted By: saint_chrisburg @ 06/20/2008 3:56:47 AM
I personally would love to attend mass in Latin. The mass was performed in Latin for more than 1500 years. The only way you might get something closer to the mass experienced by the very first Christians would be to attend a mass in koine Greek. It seems unfair that people living today don't have the right or privilege to attend the same mass that our forefathers did, all because of some ultra-reformists hijacking the intent of Vatican II.
Sure, many people won't technically understand all the words of a Latin mass. I believe if the Latin mass truly returns, however, Latin will once be more widely studied; that would then mean more and more people wouldn't be lost in a Latin mass. Regardless, there is a certain mystery in hearing mass in a language you don't fully understand. It allows you to focus on the spirituality of the mass, the rituals, and the religion itself.-
Posted By: jazzmanjim @ 06/20/2008 9:08:09 AM
Greek would be interesting. If one really wants to hear in the original language how 'bout Aramaic which is the language Jesus spoke on an everyday basis. The Maronite rite (one of the Eastern Churches that are part of the Roman Catholic Church) still uses Aramaic in it's Divine Liturgy,
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Posted By: C. MacLean @ 06/19/2008 10:00:41 PM
Well, of course the Pope wants the mass to be in Latin - if mass is in a language people can understand the hypocrisy that is Catholicism becomes much more apparent.
Far better to keep parishioners ignorant - they're much easier to control that way. -
Posted By: HoundofHeaven @ 06/19/2008 7:40:07 PM
Comment: I think that Weigel could not be more wrong in his final conclusion and its more hopeful aspirations than fact. This movement has nothing to do with more " reverent prayer" of the 1970 Missal and in fact, it has nothing to do with the 1970 Missal at all. This is fanciful aspirations at best. Weigel's statements that this is a Reform of the reform is also misplaced and misguided from an historical basis. The World Youth Day in Australia this year will be replete with the Latin Mass, Gregorian Chant and Vespers, all in Latin. Notice I did not say that this was going to be in support of the 1970 Missal. If in fact this is what the Pope wanted then this is what we would have for the most important Youth Day Celebration every held given the introduction of the Latin Mass to the youth of the world. I think the viewers of this story should go the UK Times online and read the story for themselves, what Weigel is representing to the US readers is inaccurate and misleading. Like it or not, the Latin Mass will be in all parishes in the West within 10 years. There are instructions from Rome going to every Parish Priest and every seminary in the West as well as the educational materials in order for this to happen. When Rome says every Parish, it does not mean some or many, but all parishes as Cardinal Hoyos mentioned last week in Europe, there was no misunderstanding and this is the 2nd time he has repeated the same position, just to make sure there are no misunderstandings of course.
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Posted By: jazzmanjim @ 06/20/2008 8:54:19 AM
Sorry, this is not happen the way tradionalists think. What is happening is that current seminarians are being trained in both the Ordinary Form (the Mass of Paul VI) and the ExtraordinaryForm (Mass of John XXIII). The normative form will be the Ordinafy form with the option of the Extraordinary form.
One of the reasons I am Catholic is that there is a variety of forms of worship that all have the same central truth - namely a non-bloody representation of the mystry of Calvary with Jesus being bresent Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity. I can go to our youth Mass (which is loud), play with my group (guitar, bass & piano), go to the 10:15 with the adult choir (I guess I'm not an adult even at 51) or a quiet weekday Mass and guess what - thay are all the same mystery. -
Posted By: jazzmanjim @ 06/20/2008 8:53:44 AM
Sorry, this is not happen the way tradionalists think. What is happening is that current seminarians are being trained in both the Ordinary Form (the Mass of Paul VI) and the ExtraordinaryForm (Mass of John XXIII). The normative form will be the Ordinafy form with the option of the Extraordinary form.
One of the reasons I am Catholic is that there is a variety of forms of worship that all have the same central truth - namely a non-bloody representation of the mystry of Calvary with Jesus being bresent Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity. I can go to our youth Mass (which is loud), play with my group (guitar, bass & piano), go to the 10:15 with the adult choir (I guess I'm not an adult even at 51) or a quiet weekday Mass and guess what - thay are all the same mystery. -
Posted By: jazzmanjim @ 06/20/2008 8:53:28 AM
Sorry, this is not happen the way tradionalists think. What is happening is that current seminarians are being trained in both the Ordinary Form (the Mass of Paul VI) and the ExtraordinaryForm (Mass of John XXIII). The normative form will be the Ordinafy form with the option of the Extraordinary form.
One of the reasons I am Catholic is that there is a variety of forms of worship that all have the same central truth - namely a non-bloody representation of the mystry of Calvary with Jesus being bresent Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity. I can go to our youth Mass (which is loud), play with my group (guitar, bass & piano), go to the 10:15 with the adult choir (I guess I'm not an adult even at 51) or a quiet weekday Mass and guess what - thay are all the same mystery.
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Posted By: XAndrewX @ 06/19/2008 6:56:42 PM
I think it is a great idea. I like Latin Mass, it's deeper and more meaningful on the whole.
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Posted By: jazzmanjim @ 06/20/2008 8:55:55 AM
No, the central mystery ios exactly the same. Different form - same mystery.
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Posted By: XAndrewX @ 06/19/2008 6:55:46 PM
I think that is a great idea. Latin mass is deeper and more meaning full.
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Posted By: paulte @ 06/19/2008 5:13:11 PM
Weigel has it right. Catholics today are more interested in self-affirmation than worship. The creature must render his Creator worship. God not man should be the center of things. Pope Benedict XVI has his work cut out for him. The Catholic Church has been left in ruins thanks to the flawed Council and all the post Conciliar Pontiffs.
The jury is still out on Benedict. Hopefully, he will have the courage to do the right thing and that is to annul the flawed and ambiguous Council, Vatican II. Religious liberty can only be understood in the sense of tolerance and freedom of conscience. Man has no right to embrace falsehood. All the religions other than the Roman Catholic religion contain some degree of falsehood and should not be embraced. This is the perennial teaching of the Catholic Church affirmed by Pope Benedict XVI. -
Posted By: sjbrock80 @ 06/19/2008 4:48:46 PM
The pope is the anti-christ.
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Posted By: ben nevis @ 06/19/2008 9:16:09 PM
If you KNOW that for sure, then it seems to me that you are a minion of the Anti-Christ.
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