Having Kids Makes You Happy

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  • Posted By: Minervah @ 07/02/2008 9:31:39 PM

    I always find it interesting that people with children call those without them and don't want them "selfish."
    I suppose they would call Harriet Tubman,Lawrence of Arabia,Mother Theresa, Marlo Thomas, Oprah Winfrey, Helen Keller, George Washington and oh, yes Jesus Christ were all childfree by choice. These people amongst others all devoted their lives to helping others including children.

    • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/03/2008 9:37:03 AM

      Your list is a bit skewed. Not all of those on your list chose not to have children. Only the ones that made that choice were selfish and lazy. After being a parent for years, I would gladly compare what I have done to what those that chose not to have children have done, and I am confident in the fact that I have put forth more of an effort and have grown more as a person.

      • Posted By: Minervah @ 07/04/2008 5:41:42 PM

        Oh, please, please tell me which of these good people were selfish and lazy. I would really like to know. So you think your reproducing yourself; an act of which any animal is capable, beats the ministrations of Mother Theresa? Wow! You really are confident. I think your thinking is skewed.

  • Posted By: cunardqueen @ 07/03/2008 9:53:08 AM

    ""Will your cats take care of you when you're sick? Will they help you around the house? Will they talk to you when you need someone to confide in?""

    These are pretty selfish reasons to have a child, don't you think?

    • Posted By: erinlovestoread @ 07/04/2008 12:52:08 PM

      Actually, seriously, did you hear that news story about the cat that dialed 9-1-1 when it was needed? Her owner had been teaching her as a joke, but then the cat knew what to do when he was unconscious!

      And, uh, seriously, confide in your kids? No way! Esp when they are a teenager! I'd rather have the cat. I tell my friends' cat Lucky (my apt doesn't allow pets, sad day) all sorts of stuff!

      Having kids is not about benefits like that, anyways. The PARENT is supposed to take care of the CHILD, not the other way around until the child is an adult him/herself and the parent needs the help.

    • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/03/2008 10:12:02 AM

      Who says that those are reasons to have a child? Those are benefits, and children will provide far more benefits than cats ever will. If anyone would like to try to say differently, I would be more than happy to put them in their place with a more extensive comparison. =) Comparing children to pets is just ignorant, in one of its most obvious forms.

  • Posted By: WorkingMom @ 07/03/2008 1:51:30 PM

    Quote from the article:
    "So any bad luck that befell the Sloans...was somehow attributed to that fateful decision they'd made so many years before."

    What makes the author so sure it was a "decision" and not simple infertility? Plenty of childless couples are devastated by their circumstances, and try to make the best of things by finding happiness in whatever else they have in their lives. Why assume the Sloans were just too selfish or lazy to be bothered with kids?

    Adoption is not as simple or as affordable as people make it seem, and many couples are not eligible because of age. Even people who want to adopt older children from foster care are sometimes turned away.

    Perhaps when Ms. Ali was growing up, the horrendous "baby scoop" era was still in full swing, and anyone with enough money could adopt easily, while birthmothers were coerced or tricked into relinquishing parental rights. Thankfully, these practices are much less common today, but this change combined with legalized abortion has indeed reduced the pool of infants available to adopt. Foreign countries are also tightening the rules for adoption, as they should (the terrifying Masha case from a few years back, and the criminal practices in Guatemala are good examples of why these changes needed to be made.)

    Seeing other articles she has written about fertility issues (listed at her website,) I'm surprised the author made such an assumption about her neighbors.

    • Posted By: erinlovestoread @ 07/04/2008 12:29:56 PM

      Read the article more carefully. She wasn't saying SHE thought that, but that the neighborhood did.

  • Posted By: dcredhead73 @ 06/30/2008 11:25:00 AM

    It's funny; my husband and I are childless by choice, and I'm always shocked at how people treat me like there is something *wrong* with us because we don't want kids. There's the patronizing, "oh, you'll change your mind)... I'm 35, so I doubt it. The shocked, "what?!? That's horrible" -- like we contracted some disease. The other side of the coin is that we don't treat couples with kids like they are freaks, so why are we treated this way?

    Sorry, but we didn't drink the kool-aid. Part of our aversion to having children is thihs completely self-absorbed generation of parents. This group that acts as if they are the first people on earth to birth a child (let me tell you, they aren't). That their children are so precious and brilliant (sorry, the human race has been breaking for THOUSANDS of years, so your child and your uterus are not that unique. The $3,000 Bug-a-boo strollers, the Mommy Brigade bringing their strollers the size of SUV's into lounges and bars with their kids so they can have cocktails. The utter rudeness and misbehavior of kids in public. Sorry, my Mom didn't raise me that way.

    And with all that in context, it's a club we choose not to join. If you do, great. All the power to you. But please don't push your choices on me or treat others without kids as if they are inferior to you.

    • Posted By: okthenwhatever @ 06/30/2008 2:09:18 PM

      i don't treat people who do not chose to have children as freaks, nor do i lump them all together. i don't belong to the "mommy brigade" you describe and i have never nor have any of my friends brought a stroller into a bar or lounge to have cocktails. I am not sure where you live or what your life is like so i will refrain from making snap judgements about you or your choice to not have children. HOWEVER, your point of not treating those who have children differently falls apart after your first paragraph and just sounds like sour grapes. I have two children who, BTW, are precious and brillant (to me) but i don't push them on you or anyone else nor do i allow them to behave rudely or loudly in public or private. Lady, get a grip. We all make our own choices, and each person for their own reasons. All of us, childless or not, need to respect each other and each person's decisions on how to live their lives. i don't have your freedom, but you don't have the things i feel are special that come with having children. As for those who think that having children becomes the end all and be all for parents solely because they quit growing as an individual, please realize you have NO experience in this arena - so shut up. I have grown more as a person since having children and regardless of how my career progresses (yes, it's a darn good one) or how well my paintings progress (yep, i paint and read and still enjoy pursuing my personal interests - it's a balance that i've learned from having children - you try it and see how well you do). I just realize that helping to nurture and guide a child to being a productive moral adult is far more important to ME than any of that. And who are you to say i haven't grown?

      • Posted By: dcredhead73 @ 06/30/2008 3:07:13 PM

        Who said anything about your growth? Oh, wait, I forgot. It's all about YOU.

        • Posted By: copper12 @ 07/04/2008 7:09:46 AM

          yes!!!
          "I have grown more since having children" - yes, that is a statement that implies you would not have grown without them. CF people have grown in the last few years, too. Just all in different ways, different lessons. In retrospect, everyone can say the ways they have grown, and say they've had ups and downs and life experience. Why do parents always have to exclaim that they finally get life isn't just about you anymore? Sheesh, you don't need to have your own kids to get that! (of course I realize I lack the parental perspective, but just get that I'm willing to miss out on that experience this life). CF people don't have a problem with parents necessarily, just the blatant myths (that SOME very defensive and pre-emptive parents perpetuate) that you can only experience the "magicalness" of life and growth by having children. This is a false statement, plain and simple. Maybe these types of defensive parents should spend their time examining WHY they are always exclaiming how unselfish and magical they are all of a sudden. Don't forget, CFs have already experienced the magicalness of family life, too.

      • Posted By: dcredhead73 @ 06/30/2008 3:13:25 PM

        Oh. and thanks for proving the point that many people on this thread are complaining about -- that people with kids thinks they are more self actualized and experiennced more 'growth' than those without. Especially women. That they are "more happy" than those without.

        And again, thanks for point out all the things about you.... YOU YOU YOU.

        And enough about you -- let's talk about YOU

    • Posted By: VaBelleinTN @ 06/30/2008 3:41:15 PM

      Thank you dcredhead. I believe that we must be sharing the same brain. I am 30 years old and made the choice over 10 years ago that I did not wish to ever have any children. 10 years later and I am more sure in my choice then ever. I also have a boyfriend (of 5 years) who feels the same way. He is approaching 36 and while the idea of having children wasn't something he was always against he looked at me when he turned 35 and said that he no longer had any desire to be a father. And from that day forward I can not tell you the amount of questioning we have received whenever we share our choice. Be it from family, friends or even total strangers. So I have actually started to treat people with children the way we are treated. When a person with a child make some comment about "I will change my mind", my comeback is "No I won't, but I bet you wish you could." That tends to shut them up. I also could not agree with you more about the current generation of parents and the impossible spoiled brats they are raising. The way I see most children act in public is horrible. If I had acted like that as a child, my mother would never have taken me out of the house. I am childfree and proud of it.

    • Posted By: jphernetton@johnsonbrothers.com @ 06/30/2008 1:53:25 PM

      Amen

  • Posted By: cultusdeus @ 06/29/2008 6:09:49 AM

    This article reeks of liberal self-centeredness. All right, go ask childless barren couples why they're so sad. Why have all these orphans from Korea, China, and impoverished eastern european countries been snapped up? And what fool ever said parenting was easy? Nothing in life worth having is ever easy, including successfully rearing and launching children into the world. This article is just plain idiotic, that's what it is.

    • Posted By: kittehfull @ 06/29/2008 12:32:50 PM

      There's a difference between being childless and wanting kids and being childfree and enjoying life without them. I'm part of the latter group, and I am absolutely thrilled to not come home to a messy house and toys galore.

      • Posted By: I'm just sayin' @ 06/30/2008 1:49:42 PM

        ChildFREE - absolutely a valid life style. It's a personal decision, but those with children have to say it's the best, they can't un-do anything. Consider that having children is the selfish choice - a chance to relive your life or the vanity of a "mini-me".

        • Posted By: crazydreamz0607@hotmail.com @ 06/30/2008 2:52:12 PM

          My husband and I only have one child. He is two right now and we are in no hurry to add to our family nor will ever. I love my son very much but he is not the center of attention. Husband and I know we have to put us first because we came first. It should not matter whether or not you have children b/c someone should not have children just b/c everyone else is. One thing is that person will be unhappy being a parent and no child should go through that. I get a lot of grief over the fact we are thinking of only having one. It seems to everyone else we should have another one b/c it is expected. I never give in to pressure b/c I am going to do what I want b/c I am the one raising my child or future children. My happiness does not come just from my child but everything in my life.

        • Posted By: desertgirl @ 07/01/2008 3:57:36 AM

          I am child free, but I don't think calling those who have children selfish is useful (nor do I think calling the child free "selfish" is useful either). Different strokes for different folks. It's all valid.

          • Posted By: copper12 @ 07/04/2008 6:35:37 AM

            I think CF people like myself and "I'm just sayin" speak up about how parenthood can actually be a selfish decision because WE always have to listen to speeches about how having kids is so selfless and CF people are selfish. Trust me, that message is out there, it's a dominant idea in our society, and it's is one I face very often when hanging out with my parent friends. I mentioned this on another discussion board AFTER several parents, without provocation (the topic was not about parental unselfishness), described in detail just HOW they are sooooo unselfish now. Like one lady's example was she doesn't use the air conditioning cause it freezes her kids, so that was her example of how unselfish she is. How dumb. And parents FREAKED on me and claimed that they don't know anyone who criticizes child free people, either blatantly, or subtly by talking up parenthood EVERY time you're around them. They didn't even acknowledge that several of the parents on that thread HAD IN FACT compared their unselfishness to CF people. I realize that reality hits most parents pretty fast as they learn that parenthood is not all it's cracked up to be (NOT that's it's not got it's wonderful moments, from what I hear, so don't freak out on me). But anyways, I just thought I'd explain why CF people mention the selfishness of deciding to have children. C'mon, parents ALWAYS mention that they had no idea what they got themselves into. They're just being honest. They really did think it was about the mini me thing. ha ha. They really did do it to fulfill a fantasy, and then realized that their kids have their own ideas about how THEY want to live THEIR lives. And that in general it stresses, not enhances, a relationship (hard on the kids if you're not ready for that stress because you'll have an unhappy family life, or split up). I think when parents realize that they CAN'T be selfish because they get hit in the face with the REALITY of parenthood, not THEIR fantasy, they have to announce to the world that they're not selfish anymore just because they wanted kids - which implies that CFs are selfish by default. And then CF people explain the other side of the argument, that parenthood and unselfishness are not always synonymous (in the context of the parent's topic of choice, usually), and parents get sooo offended.

    • Posted By: emtyn1 @ 06/30/2008 12:16:49 AM

      I suspect childless, barren couples are so sad because they live around a bunch of people who have children and are always asking them why they don't? My mom was away attending college and my dad was in the military. When she'd come home to visit him, at age 20, people were wondering why she didn't have any kids in a way suggesting that she had something wrong with her. It was expected at her age that she'd have some if she was married. So she had me and then she and my father continued to party like they had before they had me. I got left with my godmother/babysitter. She'd showed them that she could have a baby. I think my mom loved me (she said she did). However, I think 1950s southern small-town culture made her feel that she needed to have a kid when she didn't. Oh and by the way, she never did finish her college education. For the same reasons, I think people today adopt orphans from all over. They want to have a kid like everyone else, just like the house with the picket fence with a dog and two cars in the driveway that everybody else has. Saying this is not to suggest that they don't love those
      orphans. Also, this has nothing to do with whether someone is conservative or liberal. Intuitively, I'd think conservatives would be more likely to be happily childless.

      • Posted By: desertgirl @ 07/01/2008 3:54:00 AM

        I expect that barren couples are sad, because they WANT to have children.

        Being child free is very different from being child less.

      • Posted By: scoutie @ 06/30/2008 1:05:29 PM

        I am far from sad. I am also far from barren. I am simply childless by choice. I have 9.5 nieces and nephews whom I enjoy when I get to see them. I'm not sad when people keep asking me why I don't have any. I get mad because it's none of their business! Again, read the other post about the difference between being childless and wanting children and being childless and not wanting children. I'd rather people not have children than have them THINKING that their parents loved them. Now that's what sad.

    • Posted By: Igloo0609 @ 06/30/2008 1:26:45 PM

      You miss the point here, I have met many happy childless people. BTW, the world will be a much better world if "people actually strive for the harder things in life". But it appears that most people tend to like things that easy to do and easy to obtain.

    • Posted By: ccmonty @ 06/29/2008 9:23:48 PM

      Wow, way to completely miss the point. Childless couples are unhappy because they want to have children, but are unable to. There is a world of difference between wanting something very much and not being able to achieve it and not wanting something. Those orphans you write about are being adopted by people who want children, not be people who have made the conscious decision not to have children. Again, a world of difference.

      The article isn't idiotic, you're simply bothered because it presents a point of view that you don't like because it doesn't validate the choices you've made for yourself.

  • Posted By: marianne117 @ 06/30/2008 12:06:02 PM

    As a 32 year old mother of a two year old, I can tell you I am far happier now than I ever was before my daughter was born. Am I more tired? Sure! Am I more broke? Absolutely! LOL! But every day I watch this little critter learn something new. I took her to Disney World for her 2nd birthday and it was pure magic. Everything was so exciting to her, which made it so exciting for me. Heck, she gets excited whenever she sees a bus. Don't get me wrong, I also cherish the evenings I get to go out with friends and be "a grown up" instead of just "mommy", and I'd KILL to sleep 10 solid hours in a row, but man, I wouldn't trade this for anything. I don't think there's anything wrong with childless couples. Some people just plain do not want children. I don't think it makes them selfish or unhappy. It makes them wise. They know themselves.

    But I do not think that you can make any kind of 'blanket' statement that childless couples are happier, or that people with children are happier. Each person's happiness depends solely on their personal outlook. I was happy before my daughter was born, and I'm happy now. That's just who I am. Just as there are negative people out there who are unhappy before their children are born and unhappy when they have children.

    Articles and studies like this are just inflammatory and ridiculous. That's just my ten cents.

    • Posted By: copper12 @ 07/04/2008 6:29:38 AM

      I, too, got to experience the mystery and "magicalness" of children and re-explore certain aspects of younger days. I had the wonderful experience of being a big sister. I was old enough to appreciate how "magical" it was (and I get to see it now when I visit with my parent friends, it's nicer for ME when it's VERY occasional). I just have no desire to give birth or have my own. If it was an accident, and I DECIDED TO KEEP IT, of course I would make the best of it and change my mind, but only if I had to. And I don't have to. Hallelujah!!!! Praise Jesus! I a woman in the 21st! Bring on the spontaneous sex for life! lol

    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 06/30/2008 3:20:21 PM

      Child-free couples are, on the average, happier than those with kids. This is a fact. Like all generalized statistics, there are exceptions.

  • Posted By: bjdrums @ 06/29/2008 10:39:50 PM

    To hkmcs: Actually, I get the feeling that those who choose not to have children are thought of as antagonistic, self-absorbed and pretentious... especially when weighing in on common referrals to parents and children as "breeders" and their "crotchfruit." I don't understand how both camps can be so spiteful of each other thinking that their grass is greener.

    • Posted By: copper12 @ 07/04/2008 5:43:29 AM

      yeah, "THOUGHT OF as antagonistic, self-absorbed and pretentious", not necessarily in reality.
      and, you must be able to read. The study clearly is about which side of the grass is greener. Of course both "camps" are going to state the advantages and sometimes disadvantages (depending on how passionate they are about the advantages - I know as a CF I am) of their lifestyle in this context. as a sidenote, why can't some people get context? huh. Anyhoo, when i read this thread, and in real life experience, I only see and hear CF negative comments in RESPONSE to ignorant parental comments about how SELFISH CFs are. And the selfishness of CF parents IS a dominant idea in our society, as you so clearly stated yourself. Why wouldn't CF people argue strongly for why parenthood doesn't seem so unselfish and all that's it's cracked up to be, in this context?

  • Posted By: love4animals @ 06/30/2008 1:29:09 PM

    My husband and I have decided not to have children (we are both in our 40's). We have been married almost 9 years and have only talked once about possibly having a child, the subject has not come up in over 5 years. I am perfectly happy about this decision. People constantly ask me why we're not having kids, etcetc and "oh what a great mom you'd be". Well, I agree with alot of the comments already listed. No offense, but really what business is it of anyone's when your own personal decision not to have children becomes the topic of the day? I don't get it. I say good for those of you who do want and have children and good for those of us that don't want children. I think the only selfish part of having a child is for having it for all the wrong reasons. Just because we have chosen not to have children, does not make us selfish for that choice either. I just feel in today's world with global warming and all the changes that are happening, in the negative I might add, I would be scared to bring a child into today's world. I mean, I think of what my nieces are going to have to go through in order to survive when they get older. The cutback on jobs, schools, high fuel costs and food prices, I just think this country is heading in the wrong direction. I just don't see many good things being left for the children to enjoy unless something drastically happens with the economy. People are losing their homes, their cars and their jobs. It's difficult enough to keep food on the table for 2 people, let alone the thought of having 2 or 3 kids in the mix. Again, everyone has their own reason for having children and for not having children, let's leave it at that. My husband and I are happy that we can do our own thing whenever we want without having to worry about the cost of childcare or time consumption, it doesn't mean we're happier because we don't have children, it just means that this is "our lifestyle". Thank you.

    • Posted By: jdorton @ 07/03/2008 6:55:15 PM

      I agree with your sense that it might be quite tough for kids being brought into the world today. I think that people really ought to give it some serious consideration when making the decision whether or not to bring children into this world. It seems "selfish" (to use that much abused word here) not to do so, since it is their lives which are in issue as opposed to ours. Of course, individual conclusions will vary dependent upon what the potential parent's can individually offer their child(ren) to counteract these obvious future ills and still live a potentially decent lfe, but there will be precious few unaffected.

  • Posted By: fairymom @ 06/30/2008 1:56:55 PM

    I have experienced both and I don't think an exciting social life and carefree existence comes even close to the joy that I get from my children. Maybe I am an exception, but I knew having kids was going to be stressful. With all the stress and worry, I wouldn't trade it for ANYTHING! Enjoying a martini and getting a raise might offer some kind of satisfaction but I've never felt so deeply satisfied with anything I accomplished than I have with my children. I might stress more than the average woman my age, but I'll bet I the joy and satisfaction that I do experience surpasses that of any childless adult.

    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 06/30/2008 3:11:51 PM

      I think people often try to justify their choices with self-delusion and pure conjecture. I have three kids. They cost a lot of money, not to mention the toil of getting them to practice etc., and the worry about their safety and well-being. There is no guarantee that all this effort I'm putting in will pay off. It may all be for naught. My kids may hate me and stick me in a nursing home some day. So, the jury is still out on the overall wisdom of having children. Only a person near the end of their life can truly assess whether their choice to have children was wise or not.

      Meanwhile, soccer moms and dad tell themselves that its all worth because that's what gets you through the day. I've done it myself. It's a coping mechanism.

      • Posted By: jdorton @ 07/03/2008 6:36:09 PM

        I think it was very emotionally generous of you to admit that. It seems that most people are too emotionally competitive to risk giving up an apparent advantage over those who are different. I think we have gone insane in this way as a society. It's terribly sad.

    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 06/30/2008 3:51:32 PM

      "I don't think an exciting social life and carefree existence comes even close to the joy that I get from my children."

      The key word being "I". That's your subjective experience. It doesn't negate the overall effect that the study is examining.

  • Posted By: nprgirl @ 07/02/2008 6:55:13 PM

    I'm a single mother of a four year old. I've been single from the start. It's been a bit stressful. It has pushed me to my limit, at times. I can believe that parentless people are happier. But as for me, having a child really helped povide focus in my life. I just completed a masters program in special education (I've been teaching about three years now). I lost thirty pounds from where I was in college, and I am now in a healthy weight for my height. I own my home. And while I still enjoy a beer or two now and then, the very heavy binge drinking that still marks the life of many of my single friends is gone from my life. So - okay - I may not be as happy, but I sure think that I'm better off. Waddaya think?

    • Posted By: jdorton @ 07/03/2008 5:59:52 PM

      I think it is hard to attribute your accomplishments specifically to your having a child. It could just be maturity which would occur with or without a child.

  • Posted By: BNSethna @ 07/03/2008 5:49:28 PM

    Does Having Children Make You Happy? Yes; Yes; Yes.

    We have gained more happiness from our kids than from anything else in our lives. I am very happy and reasonably successful in my career; what's more, I'm one of those relatively rare individuals who is excited to go to work each morning -- and it's been that way for more than 90 percent of my 33-year career.

    Yet, the happiness from my children far exceeds even this ongoing love affair with my career. Though diapers and sleepless nights, through school, college, professional private schools (Medical and Law), through the significant education bills, and through the start of their own professional careers, it's all been an unparalleled joy.

    If it's not for you, don't do it. But, I wouldn't advise not doing it just because it's a hassle or expensive.

  • Posted By: BNSethna @ 07/03/2008 5:48:13 PM

    Does Having Children Make You Happy? Yes; Yes; Yes.

    We have gained more happiness from our kids than from anything else in our lives. I am very happy and reasonably successful in my career; what's more, I'm one of those relatively rare individuals who is excited to go to work each morning -- and it's been that way for more than 90 percent of my 33-year career.

    Yet, the happiness from my children far exceeds even this ongoing love affair with my career. Though diapers and sleepless nights, through school, college, professional private schools (Medical and Law), through the significant education bills, and through the start of their own professional careers, it's all been an unparalleled joy.

    If it's not for you, don't do it. But, don't avoid doing it just because it's a hassle or expensive.

  • Posted By: Scarlet Lady @ 06/30/2008 3:49:26 PM

    Even as a high-schooler in the mid-60's (I graduated in 1966) I was questioning whether having children was what I really wanted to do and even if a traditional marriage was what I was looking for. I came from a happy, stable home...but by the time I was in my college years and after I was married (more than once) I always tried to find someone who didn't want children. So yes, I decided that I did not want children.
    And when I see abused, mis-treated or ignored children I still would like to "slap the parent up-side the head" to get their attention and say...if you can't take care of children...use your birth control, get an abortion the next time or let the child be adopted out when they are born or when they are young and you realize that you can not take care of them and yourself!
    ERS from Indiana

    • Posted By: templedog @ 07/02/2008 1:06:46 PM

      I couldn't agree more. Thank you for that- my entire childhood I wondered WHY someone didn't think of doing that with my stepmother ( a kindergarden teacher- a very violent "child expert" ). Probably in fear she'd beat the daylights out of them or their children. And as for my own abandoning mother- when I found her I asked her WHY she didn't just sell me for car parts or something- her answer: WHEN I WAS BORN--- I was a very important little person. But that didn't explain what I became to everyone 6 months later. My dad? He married pretty much the same person twice- only the names changed. I couldn't even THINK of having children .. just because it's the "thing to do".
      I, too tend to choose a mate based on the wanting or not of children. And daily I get the glares and whispers- and usually people suspecting I may try to take their mate- after all I don't have children- I must be some sort of monster....
      Yet I look at these same people with their own kids running amock- I have to shake my head when they tell me they aren't quite smart enough to get their kids to do what they are told.... SO basically people are telling me they aren't as smart as a 5 year old? But they have a whole car full of kids.
      Looking at my own parents and many of the others I have run into I have to admit- I don't think I'M the selfish one here. Again agreed- if you can hardly handle your own self- why bring other innocent souls into your mess? Many times kids WOULD fare better if they had been given away when they were young.
      I like your spirit Scarlet Lady!

      • Posted By: practicalone @ 07/03/2008 4:50:56 PM

        Well written, Scarlet Lady and Templedog!

  • Posted By: undmel@msn.com @ 07/02/2008 1:38:45 PM

    I loved Nyarlathotep's comment. I actually had to dump a boyfriend (which was a difficult thing to do) because he did not hold the same belief that you and I do about adoption. I completely agree that some feel it is their duty to populate the earth with their offspring because they are capable of creating a healthy, spiritually sound home life. But I just wonder..wouldn't it then also be your duty to take in kids who are not so fortunate? That is why I want to adopt a child when I am "of age" and why I refuse to marry someone who doesn't agree. My ex wouldn't consider it because he actually admitted that he may love the child less and treat them differently than his actual child...there is no difference in my heart.

    • Posted By: practicalone @ 07/03/2008 3:34:07 PM

      I thank you, the children you adopt will thank you and the children you DON'T bring to this wonderful but OVERCROWDED planet will thank you, too.

  • Posted By: cherese4857@hotmail.com @ 07/02/2008 12:54:55 PM

    Wow, lots of aggression from the childbearers! I am a 27 year old female attorney who has just recently found a little extra time to stop and ponder the thought of children. I have lots of friends who have chosen not to have children and who I believe to be upstanding citizens that volunteer regularly and contribute to society and would be good parents. They have many reasons not to have children including lack of desire and concern for the environment because a child makes a large carbon footprint. I notice most of these comments are from angry parents that are being quite defensive. The author is not attacking parents and is in fact a parent himself but is just showing that being childless is not a tragedy or a result of egotism but rather usually a well-educated decision. Us "childless" people are happy that there are parents out there but there is no demand for more parents or children and so please stop attacking people that chose not to go down that road, we get enough from our grandparents who want grandchildren. It is our life.

    • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/02/2008 1:37:57 PM

      You have grown in your career, but not as a person. Do you think that volunteering your time to some "cause" occassionally when you feel a whim somehow puts you on the same level as a parent that has devoted their lives to caring for another person? Do you honestly feel as though your career will mean anything to anyone when you are gone? All of your decisions have been self-serving up to this point in your life. Even those who volunteer to help someone else, only do so for the sole purpose of using it to help their own appearance.

      What really kills me is that this author claims that those without children are happier, but is selfishness really the key to happiness as is suggested? Until you have a child and develop an unconditional bond of love between you and the child, you, the author, or anyone else that is childless will never know what true happiness is, (provided that the parent's I.Q. is high enough to understand the value of what they have created and do the work necessary in order for the child to flourish.)

      • Posted By: user432 @ 07/03/2008 11:08:18 AM

        Guru, I have been reading through your comments, and your logic doesn't hold. It's like the one poster said, you are arguing that you are grown up and adult and a productive member of society just because you popped out a few.....so that means such social messiahs as Jamie Lynn Spears and Ashley Simpson are more adult and more socially productive than Mother Teresa or Noble Peace Prize winners?

        Life is so multifaceted. We as human beings try to make sense of it all, when really life is so extremely complicated and unpredicable in nature. You stated the the emotional bond a parent feels to a child is worth more than the ultimate "happiness", but what about people who grow up to hate their parents and vice versa?

        What about people who have like 12 kids by 12 fathers so they can collect as much public assistance as possible so they don't have to get a job? What about people who have children and raise them to be gun-lovin neo-Nazis? I have known these types of people too, and the idea that they are somehow more beneficial to the human population as a whole than a childless double Ph. D. scientist who is working on a cure for deadly diseases is laughable. You are arguing that if you have a kid and they end up spending 75% of their life in prison/jail because they have a rap sheet as long as a barge, you were still more productive and adult as a parent just for having them....makes no sense.

        I am not saying havin kids is not rewarding or even beneficial in some ways, but the idea that it is more or less valuable as a whole regardless of circumstance is flawed logic to say the least.

        • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/03/2008 3:21:08 PM

          Are you honestly saying that you learn more from dodging an experience, rather than living through it? Come now. Surely you are more intelligent than that. Yes, those self-serving brats that have not been taught morals are horrible examples of people that have had children. That does not make them parents. I can certainly give you examples of people that make Nobel Peace Prize winners look like a joke. In fact, perhaps I should Google for those people that have earned them and also raised children... That's something to truly be proud of.

    • Posted By: mnarich @ 07/02/2008 1:17:56 PM

      Its not for "not going down that road" that I have posted my opinions about the "childfree," its for the inane reasons people keep giving for "not going down that road." Its for comments like, "I'm happy without children," or "I love children, but don't want any," or "I'm not selfish, I just don't WANT any children." All of these comments miss the point. The author said one amazing thing (the rest was psychobabble, and I'm a research psychologist): She said, "I never thought I could love someone so deeply." In other words, before she had a child, she didn't know why she should. This is a profound point. So be honest. You don't want children because you don't (yet) know why you should. That's fine. Just so you know, children are about LOVE and love will improve the world. Parents need to know this as well as the child"free".

      • Posted By: stevario @ 07/02/2008 1:38:34 PM

        mnarich, you are confused if you think children are "about LOVE and love will improve the world." With our global population busting at the seem, more children will not solve (or ???improve???) any of the problems that currently face humanity. But more significant to this conversation than ???improving the world?????? who are you to tell others how to define love in their own little world. Who are you to analyze why I don't want children. Frankly, I find the "procreation pushers" more offensive than any other segment of society. Have your children. Love your children. I have no problem with that. Stop trying to dissect and psychoanalyze me for not wanting children. Or better yet, do your dissecting and psychoanalyzing somewhere else and take your children with you.

        • Posted By: mnarich @ 07/02/2008 1:58:09 PM

          I wasn't psychoanalyzing you. I don't believe in psychoanalysis. I was pointing out that the article is (mostly) psychobabble. It misses the point of having children, it tries to compare apples and oranges, and it is based on a misguided research methodology. If you don't want children, by all means, don't have them. Your views on overpopulation are also not based on data, but on fear. The problem is not overpopulation, but overcrowding and misuse of resources. Also, population sizes have been self-correcting for millions of years, what makes you think your own personal contraceptives are going to do anything about the population in India? If environmentalists all stop having children, who is going to perpetuate their ideology? I hate to say this, but if people who don't care about the environment are the only ones passing their values on to the next generation, what will happen when it comes time for the next generation to vote on environmental protections? I'm glad you care about the environment. Plant a tree and adopt a child.

  • Posted By: bknbridge @ 07/02/2008 1:16:26 PM

    Why DO people have children?

    To have someone to take care of them when they're old?
    To bring more meaning to their lives?
    To have a greater connection with their spouse?
    To please their God?
    To continue their lineage?
    To experience a love like no other?

    Guess what - these are all selfish reasons.

    I am tired of people saying that it is selfish to NOT have children.

    • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/02/2008 1:42:23 PM

      That is why people have children...


      Why do people keep them?

      Oh, that could be because they have learned what it is to be a parent and there is a bond there that no one can break. They are more than happy to continue raising them... not so selfish now, is it?

      Do me a favor. Come up with one viable reason for not having children that is not self-gratifying...

      • Posted By: bknbridge @ 07/02/2008 2:00:53 PM

        "Come up with one viable reason for not having children that is not self-gratifying..."

        Here's a few.
        I don't want them to inherit my genetic ailments.
        I can't afford them.
        I'm not married!
        My s/o has no interest in having them since his children are grown up.
        I have no health insurance.
        I don't want to contribute to overpopulation.


        • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/03/2008 3:14:59 PM

          I said a viable reason. Those are not viable. A child that comes from a perfectly normal person can be born with health defects, and the opposite is true as well. No one ever has the money. I don't know what fairytale book that you've been reading, but you will never make enough money to give a child everything it needs. Your partner isn't interested? lol Um, yea... Like I said, give me a viable reason that isn't selfish...

      • Posted By: Nyarlathotep @ 07/02/2008 1:59:53 PM

        It's selfish because it MAKES THEM HAPPY. They get their gratification through the gratification of others. And if it makes 'em happy, for whatever reason, then fine! I wholeheartedly applaud them. Just stop kidding yourself by thinking that there's no self-gratification involved in having children, because THERE IS.

    • Posted By: learyblaine @ 07/02/2008 1:34:34 PM

      Very well said. Everyone is selfish, whether they have kids or not.

    • Posted By: Nyarlathotep @ 07/02/2008 1:28:01 PM

      THANK YOU!!!!!!!

      Everything we do that makes us happy, whether it's for ourselves or for those we love, is done for SELFISH reasons.

      "Selfless", taken to its root words, means "without self". What a truly miserable way to live.

  • Posted By: Ajinin @ 07/02/2008 2:09:26 PM

    Ah, the wonders of the internet. The internet allows people to push their ideas onto others, and brings about, thought provoking issues. I find many of these comments distasteful, in the way that, others are so tenacious to the point, where they give up their sense of reason, only to try and make their opinions seem absolute.

    I don't want children, I never have, and I don't think I ever will. Granted, that may change as time passes, but I'm twenty-two and I can honestly say, I don't see any children in my near future. I volunteered, at an elementary school for 8 months, where I helped children of various ages (kindergartners through fifth graders) with homework, played games with them, passed out snacks, among other tasks. I loved working with the children, but I honestly asked myself, "Would I be able to take the journey that is becoming of a parent?" I can honestly answer that question with I neither want to, nor do I think I have the patience and restraint to become a good father. If I know this to do true, does it make me selfish for not wanting to become a father?

    Before even thinking about having a child /children I would hope the two people thinking about conceiving, adopting, or using some other type of method could be honest with themselves and their partner. I look at this issue as I would looking at starting a new business: do I have the will-power to do this, am I financially sound and will I be able to provide all that is needed, am I willing to let this child /children consume my free time, what will be the result of my relationship(s) with my spouse, friends, and co-workers? If I answered no to any of the aforementioned questions, or came to the conclusion that having a child could have more negative effects than positive I would abort the process (pun not intended).

    All of this is moot though considering I was born with a genetic disorder, and I would NEVER wish for another human being to experience what I have in their lifetime. I despise people that call me selfish for not wanting children. If you knew the intricacies of my life, you would probably think twice about saying something so asinine.

    I do have to agree with several other posters about the article. The article was well written, addresses an issue that many people don't discuss, and her opinions are laced with evidence. The only aspect which I find inappropriate is the ending. She makes it seem like her opinion is an absolute truth; however, she did titler her article True or False, so she has the right to end it the way she sees fit. I find the article to be enjoyable and while it does have its faults, it is interesting.

    • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/02/2008 2:23:55 PM

      I find it hilarious that people are actually thinking about children on an affordable basis. If you can "afford" children, then good for you. They cost anywhere from $150,000 to $250,000 each... Obviously it is ridiculous to use such logic when making a decision on having a child. The real kicker is that people spend that money no matter what, whether it's on a child or not. Cost is not the deciding factor. It's simply a choice. Do you want to give up some of your immature desires in order to become an adult, or do you want to live carefree with as little responsibility as possible while, at the same time, maintaining a minimal level of satisfactory self-gratification?

      If you never have a child, you will never understand and you will certainly never have a solid foundation to base your claims on.

      • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/02/2008 2:32:06 PM

        I'll bet that, if any parents found out your thoughts toward children, you would not have been in charge of taking care of them very long. Perhaps that's why you only lasted 8 months? It's fairly obvious by your comments that you are not fit to be in a position to take care of children.

        Your pun on abortion was very distasteful, btw. Perhaps you're gay and this is mostly a gay vs. straight argument, as suggested by so many that are using terms such as "breeder" below.

        • Posted By: Nyarlathotep @ 07/02/2008 3:05:53 PM

          I don't believe he intended any puns, due to the line "no pun intended", plus I didn't see any negativity in his attitude towards children.

          Anyways, it's no less distasteful than suggesting that I commit suicide.

          • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/02/2008 3:21:34 PM

            I didn't really suggest it, but I can see how you might take it that way. Regardless of the way you took it, at least you have a choice, where a baby does not...

            • Posted By: Nyarlathotep @ 07/02/2008 3:45:52 PM

              "why don't you kill yourself and end your own misery?"

              I'm sorry that I saw any suggestions in that. How silly of me.

              Anyhoo, you and people like you are going to think the way you choose to regardless of anything anyone says. To those who choose to have children, whether by conception or adoption, and are making a well thought-out decision regarding this, I salute you. To those who choose not to have children, regardless of your reasoning, I salute you as well.. To those who are conceiving children because you can't be bothered to use birth control, or because you feel entitled to have children, or you feel it's your DUTY to have children, try thinking for yourself for once.

              There - I've said my piece. I'm done.

              • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/03/2008 3:10:51 PM

                Way to take it out of context, bright guy! That fact that you haven't done so is evidence that the world is not as bad as you tried to make claim to.

      • Posted By: Nyarlathotep @ 07/02/2008 2:32:39 PM

        You're telling this to someone who stated that he chooses not to have children because he doesn't want to risk them inheriting his ailments, and he doesn't want them to suffer the way he's suffered growing up.

    • Posted By: JB2008 @ 07/02/2008 5:06:27 PM

      what the heck do you know..your only 22 years old your a kid..please...first go live, grow up and then talk about having children you have like 10+ years before you form a REAL opinion

    • Posted By: Nyarlathotep @ 07/02/2008 2:26:03 PM

      That's one thing that people fail to think about. How could anyone knowingly bring a child with the dangers of inheriting the parents' genetic ailments into this world with a clean conscience?

  • Posted By: violet520@hotmail.com @ 07/03/2008 3:03:23 AM

    My godness Guru1976, what is your problem? Why are you so judgmental and harsh in your comments about those of us without children? Why is it of any importance to you whether a person had kids or not? "You will lead a meaningless life that only results in you fulfilling your own personal desires and will never know what it is to be an adult?" So if I become an adult when I have children, I guess that means that at 26, I'm still a child, but Jaime Lynn Spears knows joy and maturity like I will never know because she has a child and I don't? I mean, that is bascially what you're saying, right? And besides.. if child rearing is so important to you, why the hell have you been posting comments on this board for over 12hrs? Shouldn't you be looking after those kids you speak so much of? Man, must be nice to have that kinda time on my hands.. guess I need to go out and get "knock up" to experience that kind of bliss.

    • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/03/2008 9:02:44 AM

      Why am I so judgemental? I have been on both sides of this fence and I know what I'm talking about. That is why. The people that choose not to have kids are doing so out of their own selfish desires. Ask any of these that have choose to not have children, (emphasis on choose), and you will see that I am right. It's not something complex, yet there are so many people confused. I also know what level of wisdom I had before I had children, and the incredible amount of wisdom that I gained through having a child and continuing to raise them. People that say they are adults without having ever raised children are simply ignorant to the fact that they would grow so much more as a person after having gone through the proceess of raising your own child. Yes, I have been mean, but stupidity makes me angry, and there is an abundance of that in the article as well as in these posts.

      As for becoming a part of this discussion, it is simply entertaining. I am intelligent enough to take on however many would like to fight about it, and experienced enough to have a firm foundation for all of my logic. Aside from voicing my own opinion clearly, I also have the opportunity to see what other good parents are saying.

      As for everyone minding their own business, that's nonsense. Our decisions to have or not have children are directly impacting everyone's future. Unless you do not care about the future, it is very much everyone's business, at least enough so that an opinion should be voiced.

      • Posted By: Tacocat27 @ 07/03/2008 10:24:01 AM

        Ok Guru, so If I have a child and abusive it both mentally and physically, then by your line of thought I'm still a more mature and unselfish person? It I have a child that I don't want in the first place and raise it as though I never wanted it in the first place then I am still contributing to our future? Yeah, wow, your logic is just mind-blowing! Lets encourage people who don't want children to have them, that sounds like a great idea! How on earth am I selfish just because I don't want kids? Where is there a law written that says every person on this earth must breed?

        • Posted By: Guru1976 @ 07/03/2008 2:49:55 PM

          "Ok Guru, so If I have a child and abusive it both mentally and physically, then by your line of thought I'm still a more mature and unselfish person?"

          Wrong. No wonder you are so confused. I have stated several times that raising a child properly and growing as a person because of it will result in your maturity. It isn't a quick fix, nor does it always result in maturity occurring at all. You have to be intelligent enough to learn and grow throughout the process. At the same time, if you have children and abuse them, the cops will clean the you off the streets. Honestly, if you have such a personality, it's better that it is dealt with, rather than it taking longer for people to notice what a piece of garbage you are.

          "It I have a child that I don't want in the first place and raise it as though I never wanted it in the first place then I am still contributing to our future?"

          Yes. You will learn and your child will learn. Regardless, perpetuating the human race is important and even the worst people contribute to the world in some way. Contributing in a small way is still better than not contributing at all.

          "Yeah, wow, your logic is just mind-blowing! Lets encourage people who don't want children to have them, that sounds like a great idea! How on earth am I selfish just because I don't want kids? Where is there a law written that says every person on this earth must breed?"

          Yes, I will definitely encourage people to grow, mature, and become smarter. Having children is huge part of growth that shouldn't be skipped, at least not by choice. You are selfish in that you base this decision on selfish reasons. Go ahead and list why you don't want them, or is your reason "just because..." lol

    • Posted By: npowell28 @ 07/03/2008 3:51:02 AM

      violet, see the post above for my words to Guru. I agree. He/She is not wrapped too tight.

  • Posted By: SEAS004 @ 07/03/2008 2:18:48 PM

    You make a good point BUT perhaps if infertility was the case that over time the Sloans became comfortable with the idea that perhaps the biological limitation was a "sign" (from nature, god, whatever you believe in) that they were meant to be childfree. I know a few couples who this has been the case.

  • Posted By: childfreeandlovingit @ 07/03/2008 12:47:36 AM

    Instead of devoting 20 years of my life raising kids, I'd much rather devote my time, energy, and effort in taking care of my parents to ensure that they are well taken care of during their later years. My sister and I are both 'intentionally childfree', and we often bring our parents traveling. What makes us happy is knowing that our parents are living a carefree life. Often times I see many grown children not spending time with their own parents because they are so pre-occupied with their kids' 'activities'.

    • Posted By: Question Assumptions @ 07/03/2008 1:44:45 PM

      I think that it is great that you spend time with and take care of your parents. It seems like spending time with family is a value of yours. That said, who will be around to spend time with you and care for you when your parents pass? Not the only reason to have kids but a pretty common one.

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