An advocate of the American West's mustangs blasts a proposed government policy to cull the herds.
Comment: So we're concerned about polar bears in the arctic, but we don't give a damn about our own ecosystems. Those animals have been here long before we were. They deserve a little respect. How would you feel if someone wanted to euthanize you if you were considered a pest? Jeez, these people are a-holes.
Comment: To whom it may concern,
We need to stop killing all these poor defenceless animals and start thinking about their existance.
People of the BLM need to *** off and get a new hobbie. One that doesn't involve killing or torchuring animals. Animals are just as fragile and meaningful as human beings and they need to stay out in the open as wild mustangs not human cutting posts! We need to take a stand and stand up for what is right! These acts of violence may lead to worse things maybe child endangerment! Or other animals! Who wants to see these beautiful creature get slaughtered! I mean if we don't stand up for them, who will?
Comment: SAVE THE HORSES ......................
they should not be treated this way................
say NO! to this bad thing that the BLM want todo to these amazing animals that we have on our earth......
RISK TO LOSE ONE OF THE GREAT ANIMALS....................
we need to come together and fite it .............SAY NO!!!!!!!!!
Comment: geee blackandwhitehorses...ya think your horse prejudice or what, these animals are americas history, as a horse owner of 10 years, what is going on bs. There is no reason for the Federal Government needs to step in, IT IS POLITICS not the benefit of the animals that consume there thoughts or processes. These animals survived without us for many years it was by the hands of humans that they are in this position, maybe even ranchers. DId you read the article, I doesn't take a genious to know that the government is leasing land to keep the food consumption going in the US and every damn place else. This is ridiculous, no reason to euthanize these animals, 33K horses is not a lot considering and nature will take care of it themselves we don't need to be involved. Don't ranchers have confined spaces for animals at times. Come on people how much more are we going to stand for in life, how much more can we compromise!!!!
Comment: it is pathetic that wild animals on public grazing land are being killed (or want to be) for the benefit of cattlers. Does anyone know that overgrazing by for profit cattlers caused plenty of wildlife die off for generations? It was in the 1800s and 1900s that these ranchers would kill one another over grazing land which is why we have public land and grazing rules...now they are going to buldoze that freedome also. What is wrong w/ the morals of this country. We complain about china hunting whales to extinction, but are happy to do that to horses for profit?? What makes us better?
Comment: Send the excess population of mustangs to the anti horse slaughter proponents like Bo Derek and Willie Nelson.. Why don't all the "rescue groups" like Best Friends Animals Sanctuary take what's left over. City slickers and bleeding heart animal advocates have done more to destroy the quality of life for the mustangs by insisting there be NO culling just forced containment in holding pens for years on end. To spay and geld to prevent continued population increases is yet another form of torture. I speak from experience after having my own UTERUS ripped out from surgery. Unfortunately for me it was necessary to cure a serious medical condition. Frankly I don't understand anyone wanting to adopt a WILD horse and condemn it to a life of confinement when it has run FREE since birth. How is that a quality of life for a WILD horse? Culling is necessary especially in the wild herds. Let them die with dignity instead of being couped up in a 12X12 pen the rest of their lives. That is NOT life that is prison. BTW for those of you who think cattle destroy the range....newsflash horses are the ones that damage to rangeland. They can crop the grass down to roots as they eat with two sets of teeth....cattle wrap their tongues around the grasses instead. Horses large hooves cause far more damage to the ground than the cattle's split hoof. Also horses will peel and eat the bark off the trees, cattle do not. In short horses are far more destructive to rangeland than cattle.
Comment: The wild horse act removes protection from horses that have been adopted for one year. Those horses get titled to the adopter and can be sold, traded or given away at that time just as any other horses. The protection is for those who are in the wild. Horses that have been in holding pens for years, some for a decade, can no longer be considered wild.
Something has to be done, the country is in an econmic situation and budgets are being cut everywhere. The wild horse program has operated in the red almost from the beginning.
Things must be changed and not all changes are going to please everyone. The policy discussed has been in the original law since the beginning 31 years ago. I have sent suggestions to the BLM for years, such as what I suggested below.
The time for finger pointing and blame game has long passed. Drastic times calls for drastic measures and what needs to be done, get done now. It is time for people to step and take responsibility as Americans for America's symbol of wild horses.
Go out and adopt one or two.
Write a college or University, ask about sterilization programs and taking in a group of horses as a study group to humanely develope feasible sterilzation methods that would work on the wild herds.
Ask your state or national parks in your area to set up, a sanctuary and take in sterile, un-bred mares and castarted males to live the rest of their lives in the open rather than a feed lot.
Ask those Animal Rights groups and Wild Horse Advocates like Deanna Stillman, to cough up some of that tax-free donations, purchase some land and take in some of these horses. They receive Millions of tax free donations every year, and can cerrtainly buy some land for the purpose they are promoting and asking donations for.
They can sell syndicate papers to people who donate, designating certain horses as being the donors, complete with photographs of the horse, like the feed the children campaign.
there are plenty of ways people can do something rather than demonizing other citizens who have actually stepped up and done more for the horses athn other people want you to believe.
Just sit back and brain storm ideas and do it!
Comment: How about going through the holding pens, all of them, and select the horses with good size, conformation and a popular/ high demand color.(Appaloosa, Pinto, Roans, Buckskins, Palomino's, Curlies, etc.) Then set those horses aside to place into select management areas at the time of roundups.
That would provide new genetic balance into a herd, build up and improve the quality of future adoptable horses. More people would be willing to pay more for a good sized, decent conformed horse with the color that people like to see. I have seen horses with those qualities go for a $1,000. vs horses that are stunted, solid colored and less desirable conformation, not even selling as a buddy horse for $25.00.
Ask about turning loose a mammoth Jack into a couple of the larger ranges to take over a herd or two? It would provide a sterile crop of colorful mules that are very popular. It would also keep the herd size to a reasonable rate as the offspring will be sterile and the mares would throw a few more sterile offspring, without adding more fertile fillies or colts to the range. Then (before people start screaming about genetic diveristy) at the time of the roundup, remove the mule offspring, remove the Jack and stick one the previously selected studs, with size, color and conformation in with the ones for release.
Offer some of the older horses to the Indian Nations. Offer some to sanctuaries at no cost. They just come and get them, rather than BLM taking them there. Take some small, sterile groups and establish sanctuary areas in various National / State parks east of the Mississippi. With them being sterile, it will be an area where more can be placed as the original ones pass on from natural causes, as none will be born there.
Offer a higher incentive to Ranchers and other interested groups to provide private land to take in some herds. The requirement must be that the horses be sterile, or unbred mares and castrated males. That way no one is going into the "private Mustang breeding business", the sanctuaries remain available for more in the future when the older ones die off from old age/natural causes.
Contact some of the colleges and universities and give them field practise for spaying, castration, donations to BLM. They get practise under supervison of the Veterinarian School and the BLM gets free services. Donate some to Veterinary colleges and Universities as a study herd to perfect sterilization methods to use on some wild herds.
The rest of the unadoptable, for what ever reason, euthanize humanely and dispose of them. It has been in the BLM policy to humanely destroy the unadoptables from the beginning of the Mustang program. It is the sitting back and waiting and Wild Horse Advocate lawsuits, that has allowed the program to get in the sorry shape it has become.
Comment: Ranchers already own their land..
Cows were brought over the same time as the horses. Check out Spanish expeditions.
Comment: Take back our nations land! Let the ranchers go and buy their own piece of property. Get your cows off of my land. If you are interested in bringing animals onto my land to put money into your pocket, try bison. At least they were there before you or your ancestors were (until they killed them off as well). I fully trust our governments assessments on everything (especially the environment or wmd's)! hahaha
Comment: This is a scientific issue based on the ecology of our ecosystem dependent Earth. The horse in question is a non-native, introduced, transported animal that is not us; it is Europe's. The horses are being removed because they are consuming this ecosystem. These horsed left their ecosystems and ecological checks and balances back in Europe. Only native animals and plants are biological diversity, i.e., the strands in the web of all life and the rivets holding spaceship Earth together.
The introduction of non-native species is a top agent of the extinction of biological diversity or the living animals and plants that, altogether with soil and water -- are an ecosystem. These horses are consuming the habitats, foods, nurseries, covers and protection of the biological diversity. When these herds of hooved locust feet slice the earth beneath their hooves, they disturb the soil, which directly kills the native plants but also establish weeds, other non-native, transported plants that have no jobs or roles in this ecosystem, just like the horses. The weeds are not in the food chain with the native animals, and native plants are at the bottom of the ecological pyramid, in which all life in the system depend for food, shelter, habitat, etc.
This is an issue of many specie losses to one animal from Europe. Every aspect of life as we know it is governed by ecosystems -- the climate, oxygen, the composition of the atmosphere, fresh water, checks and balances on pests that consume ecosystems and man's crops and the checks and balances on viruses that cause pandemics.
These horses left their checks and balances back in Europe. The National Academy of Sciences,THE EXTINCTION OF BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY IS A THREAT TO CIVILIZATION SECOND ONLY TO THERMONUCLEAR WAR." This is an issue governed by the ecology of Earth and Earth's biological diversity, synonymous with all life on Earth. Does a bird destroy his own next? :
Comment: Over 219,000 Mustangs have been adopted since 1978.
The wild horse ranges population maximum capicity is 27,000.
There are up to 50,000 on the ranges with over 20,000 in holding pens all over the country. Do the math.
Ranges meant to support 27,000 horses in the best conditions is not going to support more than that.
There are NO wild horses ranges in Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Kansas, North and South Dakota. There are BLM permit areas in thos states.
There ARE TWO wild horse ranges in Colorado. They are the western part of the state. A lot of Ranches have BLM permit areas inside their own boundaries or adjoining their properties. But are no where near a wild horse range. My Ranch is 300 miles from the nearest wild horse range.
BLM has NEVER increased the cattle allotment size on a permit area. They have often reduced the amount according to the environment study done yearly. Ranchers often reduce and even rest the permit areas for a year according to what the range needs.
Ranchers often adopt mustangs and use them as ranch horses. How many have any of you adopted?
Ranchers have taken in hundreds of unadoptable mustangs in the incentive program started in 2004. How many have you taken in?
Cattle are now being used in areas as fire reduction by using controlled grazing techniques, which Ranchers have done for decades. They eat and keep down the invasive woody, fire feeding plants, have been proven time and time again ( to the disgust of anti-grazing groups) that cattle have benfited the lands vs removing them.
Oh ans since some of aren't "getting the message".. this policy about destroying the excess horses, has been in the opriginal law since 1973. Pres. Bush has nothing to do with this. Do the math.
Comment: In comment to the 2 million mustangs as of two decades ago and now 27,000 population.. Highly incorrect. If there was 2 million wild horses, ever, it was back when the west was still wild, and I don't believe anyone was running around counting them! When the Wild Horse act went into effect, there was an estimated 9,700 horses on ranges as of 1971.
FACT: In 1973, when the law went into effect, the management of said horses included the destruction of excess horses. That has been in the LAw the whole time. It's nothing new!
President Bush wasn't President then..duh! So all you screaming it is a "Bush policy" need to do a little research and check out the law past the first paragraph!
The Law also states the horses are to managed on the ranges they were located on at that time..being 1973! The law did not intend to "reestablish the horses to historic population, in fact states they are to be managed in a way that reflects the multi-use plan of those ranges, within a healthy eco-system that also supports wildlife.
The Law further states that the populations are to be evaluated and any excess horses are to be removed and placed into the adoption program, allowing the the range to support the remaining horses at a healthy level.
Comment: The mustangs are an invasive species with no economic benefit. Like most invasive species, including the zebra mussel, emerald ash borer and purple loosestrife, they wreak havoc on the environment. If you consider yourself to be "Green", there is a stronger argument for eradicating them than there is for saving them.
For those who consider them to be a romantic part of our heritage, remember the historical fate of all animals: if we can???t ride them or eat them, we will tolerate them only so long as they stay far away from us.
If you want to save them, find a way to make them profitable.
Comment: Wild horses and mustangs are majestic creatures that are a major part of American culture. Humans are indebted to horses because they were our only means of transport for centuries. To kill wild horses or mustangs is akin to malevolent animal abuse and crimes against nature.
Brien Comerford
Comment: Nice comment Lee, I appreciate very much your informative, balanced look.
Comment: It is strange that eastern dudes and wannabe cowboys point fingers at the BLM who are in a better position to observe and deal with growing wild mustang populations than most. It is a matter of fact that allowing wild horse populations to grow expodentially spreads disease,creates malformed animals,and leaves most dead of thirst or starvation in both winter and summer months that do not have the protection of private reserves where employees can care and feed for the animals in a captive environment setting. Around here,local Indian [Paiute-Shoshone],wisdom marks the mustang as an animal not worth the waste of time in deducing solid candidates for further training from the ''shoeheads''[inbred,health and disease problems]. These native-Americans comprise among the finest trained cowboys[buckaroos],in America,working on ranches from the IL,TS,71,Spanish,Maggie Creek,and others where areas of the Great Basin have been littered with the carcasses of the mustang herds grown too large to be properly managed. The Owanee Desert, home to one of Americas largest wild herds,is covered with the bones of these horses. In the world of unintended consequences in which the dogooder environmentalist or conservationist perpetually resides,ranches forced out of business by more stringent environmental standards,have left the mustang without a human advocate on-scene deprived of the forage and grazing needed for survival.Alkali soils,held in check by human hands and irrigation diversion which has been abandoned,move to take over the region killing off grazing grasses needed for wild equine survival creating one of the most inhospitable environments anywhere in the western hemisphere.The author means well,but ignores the fact that neither Comanche,or Paul Reveres horse were mustangs,but of a mixed breed .Indeed,even during the American West of the 1870s-80s,horse purchasers from the Armys cavalry arm to settlers and ranchers would eschew the capture and training of mustangs to opt for cross-bred horses provided by breeders and ranchers. Violent diseases wiped out hundreds of thousands of these animals,and those who raised these sought to separate the wild from the domestic driving them into more and more remote areas.While the horse should be protected as a matter of species survival,it is not for meddling easterners and others to attempt to transform life and livlihood in the West in order to salve conscience or to demonize those who have lead the hard life of the stockman ,rancher or other who in the end,becomes a better steward of the environment surrounding him or her[as several ranches are operated by widows],than governments or city slicks. I speak here from a lifetime of experience,seeing both sides of this issue,who has seen the West from the Rockies to the Pacific on the back of a horse and keeps, along with other stock,a gelded mustang.
Comment: Ironic how some one so educated doesn't know proper spelling and grammer desertdonkey. You want to play the education card- it is Hypocrites, NOT hypocrits- accuse ME not knowing what words mean- that's pathetic. You're not worth my time. Exactly what does your welfare tirade have to do with not wanting thousands of animals needlessly slaughtered? Should that many be loose- no. I agree with that. But there are other alternatives. I simply want to see them explored by an organization that doesn't waste funds. I wouldn't accuse others of being emotional over an issue you obviously have a lot of feeling over. If you weren't...why are you still responding? Your degree means crap. My grandfather runs the conservation department in my area, I've lived this stuff. So go back to your library, your books, and your bitter lonely word. Oh yeah...you haven't said...what is it again that you are doing to help the situation besides yell at those with a conscience?
Comment: Wow.
You contradicted yourself several times in there... and it's the Internet.. spelling means nothing and pedants like yourself appear to fulfilling your banal desires when you point out misspelled w3rds.
Wow.
Comment: uhh... you should prolly stay off the Internet "AshMann".. my comment had ZERO to do with yours. I read it, gave it a "Heheh" then wrote something completely un-related.
How am I being ignorant? Seems like a BIG word for you and maybe you don't understand it. I do have a B.S. in Environmental Science, I have done a lot of ecosystem studies in regards to impacts of invaders species on and native, and in particular, endemic plant and animal species.. how again? Prolly better if you stear clear of adult / rationale / issues that really should not be discussed by emotion driven people. Why are you talking about your 'daddy' and 'uncle' etc? how is that related to wild horses and donkeys again? Are you letting your emotions get to you? Do you know what rhetorical question is (please don't answer any of those questions).
Ok. So here's one from Trona, Ca, which has more than its fare share of donkey issues. About 20 years back, donkeys were coming into neighborhoods and destroying property. Kicking in garage doors, knocking down fences.. bad stuff. The BLM had to go through mountains of red tape, heavily laden with bleeding hearts whining and moaning the entire time.
So a bunch of dudes got together and shot like 30 of them one night. At least that's how the story goes.
I was in Death Valley.. believe me, DONKEYS are not indigenous to this region. AT ALL. But there are springs back there so once the minors released these now feral creatures, their populations did ok. And these beautiful babbling brooks ... FULL of donkey crap.. festering and putrifying in the sun. And all I see is bleeding hearts amongst the flies and stench and stagnation.
Do something. Don't be hypocrits. You make lots of noise.. go adopt! Get of your lazy butts! You are probably welfare recipients anyways just sitting around living off the fat of the land soaking up free money! Go get a donkey!
Comment: Did you even read my comment desertdonkey, or just respond to the first sentence? I am truely sorry for the problems your friend is having, but that is human error- you can hardly blame the horses for that. I do not want more taxes, and I don't think they are needed. I think if some would get their act together a reasonable solution would be found. You are being so ignorant! Ever since I was a little girl I have donated to programs that relocate mustangs to areas where they may live in a controlled environment, while still being wild- and as I said many of my friends in the area have adopted mustangs- but it is irresponsible to suggest everyone do so. You're right, I don't live in the area- but I did, as you would know if you read more than the first sentence of my comment. And I am offended that you think that because I don't wanted horses killed I am an unamerican pot head. I have NEVER touched the stuff, My father, uncle and cousin are all in the military and my step father is a farmer- you don't get more hard working or 'american' than that.
Comment: Heheh.
I have deep sentiment for this issue because it hits so close to home.. so close that I can see BLM's "Wild Horse & Burrow Facility" from my house.
The young lady (23 y.o.) that just moved into the apartment across from me (4 months ago) moved down from Susanville, Ca., to work a BLM / Federally funded contract to feed the horses at this facility. Her bro and sis work the one in [near] Reno, Nv.
Well.. the BLM laid off a bunch of people in their "finance office" and she has not been paid in TWO MONTHS... car payments, rent.. all late. Food = I bought it for her. The kicker? When she does get paid (which I see as an "if"), it will be for the missed check 2 months back, not the one she is due for LAST month.
Disgusting... and what do I get for an response on here? "It was her choice. Life is full of choices." THAT'S the sentiment that these bleeding hearts have for HUMANS. Some nice 23 y.o. gal getting her credit and life put into complete distress and it was "her choice".
Sick. These bleeding hearts are sick in the brain. Instead of doing anything like ADOPT A HORSE OR DONKEY, they want MORE TAXES. That's the bleeding hearts solution to everything: Raise Taxes. Disgusting.
And they are all hypocrites. NONE of them will adopt a horse or donkey. I'll still be going into these valleys where you literally can not take a step without hitting a petrified horse or donkey turd.. the ecosystem simply has nothing to break it down. I mean piles of decades old turds in a desert ecosystem.. simply petrified.
And all I see is fields of bleeding hearts.
And these wonderful desert springs with endemic species of fish and invertebrates. Just getting polluted by piles of horse and donkey turds. Flies all over. Putrid water. And all I see is bleeding hearts in there.
They act purely on emotion. Pure ignorance. Damn the facts and "Oh the poor horsies". "It's a symbol".. lols. A symbol of what? You don't even live in these areas or play in these areas. It's a pic in a coffee table book sitting your living room that you and your friends can muse over while smoking dope and trashing on the real Americans.. which you are NOT.
Comment: Desertdonkey you disgust me. Adopt 9-10 horses- are you kidding? Not every one of these horses even are adoptable- they are wild, most of them have never been touched and now just because I don't what to see them extinguished I need to risk my childrens safety and the safety of other horses? That is ridiculous. I did live in the areas affected by the horses- so don't tell me I don 't understand. What bothers me is that unless it can make a profit it has to be killed apparently. Cows are destroying huge areas of land. They are very damaging grazers, as are their hooves- yet it is okay for them to run free range. Have a buffalo, horse, or any other animal even show up and we have to kill them. Something must be done yes- but just becuase I wish for it to be a compassionate solution does not make me subhuman! In reality having a heart and feelings is what makes me human- and your lack there of is what makes you trash. To group all of us together is ignorant. Because I don't want horses slaughtered I am suddenly a welfare program supporter? Are you kidding me? That is another system that needs to be fixed- but it isn't the issue here! I do love animals, but I have worked to acheive a balance in my life in regards to my view of them. My pets are for my enjoyment- not to fulfill a need for a child - or any other unbalanced reason. You are right on one thing, most of them are not majestic looking- now why would that be? Because their food and water sources have been declared off limits- ranchers only, and they have to survive on what little they can find. Are there food and water programs? yes, but they are a joke. Usually the "watering" area is a trough filled with mud- is it really any wonder that they aren't always as beautiful as their domestic cousins? Many people in the area I now live have adopted mustangs, but is has taken years of hard work for them to be docile. Unless highly skilled with horses this is not an option for most people. Also- someone was mad I appreciated someones comment about horses and the ice age? If you look at my comment I was using that as an argument for keeping the horses. Sorry for any confusion in that matter.
Comment: I'm sorry to say it but this country is not one that just does stuff, desertdonkey. We are a country that must first discuss, deliberate, discuss some more, pass a law, wait for it to come into affect, then see how things go and do the process all over when a problem arises. So there is no need to go and say that it is sickening to put animals above people. We are in a bloody republic. It is their right to say weather an animal is worth more than a human.
Comment: I'm sorry to say it but this country is not one that just does stuff, desertdonkey. We are a country that must first discuss, deliberate, discuss some more, pass a law, wait for it to come into affect, then see how things go and do the process all over when a problem arises. So there is no need to go and say that it is sickening to put animals above people. We are in a bloody republic. It is their right to say weather an animal is worth more than a human.
Comment: Who can stop them? YOU can stop them.
You can adopt these horses and burrows VERY CHEAP. Man up and do it! All I've heard is ignorant comments from BLEEDING HEARTS about why they think these horses and donkeys should not be killed (because it makes their hearts bleed).
Yet the people [like me] who actually live in places where where these "majestic" (lols) creatures live have to deal with them. See... these wild horses are a place in your mind. They are NOT real to you. It's just a myth or some other airy thing your bleeding minds have dreamed up. You've never had to deal with them. And you bleeding hearts are certainly not man enough to actually do anything about this problem other than whine and b!tch about it.
Don't be hypocrit! Get out there and adopt a whole bunch of these. If every bleeding heart that posted on here would adopt like 9 or 10 of these, than it'd be a big help. Hell, if all the bleeding hearts in the country adopted 9 or 10, this whole thing thing would be solved.
But you won't. Just like all bleeding hearts, you are hypocrits. You make lots of noise because you simply guided in all aspects of your live by your emotions.. uncontrollable sobbing whining sub human trash. You actually put animals ABOVE humans. That's sick! Disgusting... like your brains must be rotting or something. It's tragic.
Thing is, a lot of bleeding hearts are all for welfare. And that's all these horses are.. the BLM facilities that house these creatures are just welfare for horses. Bleeding hearts love this. They don't mind letting taxes get wasted on thes invasive creatures that should NOT even exist in certain ecosystems or the impacts.
Everytime I come up on a formerly pristine desert spring and see it filled with piles of donkey and horse $hit and it's putrifying and there's flies and stench and stagnation... all I see is piles of bleeding hearts in there. Disgusting.
Walk the walk, talk the talk.. you have NO real experience with these animals. Man-up. Don't be hypocrite. Do something. Adopt some of them.
Comment: I joined in the outrage yesterday, but my comments did not make it in the mix. I have been following a lot of the comments made yesterday. I haven't read much of them this morning. I hope folks are off the kick of where horses came from and whether or not they survived the ice age. Those are not rellavent points, I think. More importantly, what are other methods of solution that can be found for the population of the horses? You know, Mother Nature has a way of fixing problems such as these. From time to time God, Himself, will step in and manage situations. The horses belong to him, in the first place. No one owns these horses, and they belong to everyone. They should not be coraled. Someone is being very selfish and controlling. The way I see it, the government spends $1.09M for each horses (do the math - $39 M, 66 T/horses). I'm not that good at math, so perhaps I'm wrong. Wait...it's more than that. Millions to thousands. Anyway, I have 23 acres of land in the mountains of NC. I have wanted a horse all of my life. I would like a young black and white paint, filly w/her mother and father and $1M each to fund their needs. I don't understand why a horse cost a million + dollars a year to maintain, but those are the figures provided in this report. They would not be beasts of burden under my care. They would be my friends for life. I would love to hear from an official on this matter. MOre than likely, no one of that stature is even bothering to read any of our comments. And, unfortunately, the horses are probably being killed even as we speak. Who can stop them? Who can get in their car and drive or take a plane or a bus or a train and get there to make them stop? Who has that power? Phylosphy and opinions are great, but who can really get something done to fix this? The weather is beautiful here right now and the horses would be very happy here long before they would be happy in a crowded coral or being chased by helicopters in the open plains or killed because you blew managing the situation. Man has failed those horses. Please take me seriously and be in touch. You have my email and I will be checking it regularly. Or, tell me how and who to contact. In Jesus name, I pray God will not leave an ill-fate in the hands of "man" to correct their mishandling of this situation. Horses are magestic creatures and should not be handled with such disregard. As far as comparing this situation to the over-population of deer - people eat deer - we don't (I hope) eat horses. Someone be in touch, please. Thank you to all of you for jumping on this so vigorously.
Comment: I was appalled when I read this article; I can hardly believe the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is considering euthanizing the Mustang population out west. The BLM gives several reasons; their budget is to low and the Mustangs are destroying grazing land, etc. If they want to control population, why don???t they geld the stallions, I guess that implies a little common sense and God forbid the US Government should utilize common sense when trying to reach the best possible resolution.
The Mustang is America???s symbol of freedom and slowly but surely we are destroying what helped to make our nation great. The horse is the epitome of what America has stood for since before Christopher Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492 and now the horse is an inconvenience the United States doesn???t want or need, they have served their purpose so that are literally put out to pasture.
The BLM can utilize what ever argument that suits them best but I believe they are 100% wrong and the horses need to remain free without fear of being ???thinned out??? by our government. Haven???t we learned anything from our past mistakes concerning endangered species? Do we really want to see the Mustang on the endangered species list? Two decades ago, the Mustang population was 2 million, and now it???s roughly 27,000. I truly hope the US government utilizes good judgment with regards to the Mustang population.
On a more cynical note, I wonder what government official is getting rich off this outlandish pr
Comment: Mustangs are not an endangered species and never will be. 219,000 have been adopted since 1978. 20,000 in holding pens across the country. 30,000 on ranges meant to support only 27,000 in excellent conditions. There has been a drought going on out west for several years.
The horses of the west are feral horses that very few can trace back to spanish genetics. Many exhibit draft breeding from all the work horses turned loose in the 20's, 30's and 40's. Others have a little better quality thanks to the Calvary re-mount program which turned loose Arabian and Thourghbred stallions. Others are escaped ranch stock.
I have seen horses at adoptions that barely push 12 hands high ( a hand is 4"). Severly stunted, backs so long they look like a horse version of a dachshund, crooked legs, large heads, ewe necks. Then I have seen some that resemble short draft horses and finally a few individuals that because of selective breeding a good influx of modern breeds, are really quality animals.
No body is getting rich in this business. It costs millions per year to run the adoption program and at $125.00 a head for an adoption fee, they aren't going to even pay back a fraction of that cost. Throw in 20,000 that for one reason or another are not adopted, it still costs to feed and care for them.
If you haven't noticed the economy is bad and budgets are being cut everywhere.
Comment: Even gelded stallions eat. It is only one stallion per herd that does the breeding anyway. The other stallions run in "bachlor bunches" waiting for a chance to challenge a stallion and take over its herd. The problem is that there is not enough forage on the wild horse ranges to support a year round population of horses that is anywhere from 2X to 4x over the amount evaluated as a healthy population.
There was not 2 million mustangs on the range two decades ago. There may have been two million horses back in the 1850's, but I doubt anyone was out there counting them. In 1971-1973 there were 9,700 mustangs on the range. The Wild Horse and Burro Act of 1971 established those areas as Wild Horse Management areas. They are to maintained at a population level of 27,000 horses, and to managed as a "Symbol".. not to be returned to someone's idea of a historic population. If you hadn't noticed, there is alot more cities, roads, highways, ski resorts, towns, homes and people ( not just Ranches) out west than there was in 1850.
The policy that required removal of horses in excess of each ranges carrying capacity, to include placement in the adoption program, and humanely destroying the unadoptable horses was set up at the same time as the law giving them protection (from commercial roundup), was in 1973. They have always had the authority to do this and all of you demonizing a population of citizen's of this country, who also vote, pay taxes, and do more for the enviroment than any of the arm chair enviromentalists here, are completely operating on emotions rather than fact.
The advocate who brought about this article is using twisted statements and opinions as fact, which they are not. Basically she is committing slander and should be held accountable.
In fact why doesn't her group buy any land, set up a sanctuary purchase some un-adoptable Mustangs at the low cost of $125.00 each. yeah that is all it costs to adopt one of these horses. I know because I adopted 3 and NO it doesn't take years to get them trained. I was riding mine in just a couple months and still have one at 19 years old.
Comment: Kiwani, I totally agree with your ideas and comments. I am both a horse lover and horse owner and I live in Colorado. I own two horses, one of which is a Mustang. They are beautiful, intelligent, incredible animals and I absolutely detest what the BLM is trying to do to them. My Mustang has the best personality of any horse I've ever owned, and I'm sure if he could talk he would tell the BLM they stink and how dare you treat an important symbol of the American West with such disrespect!!!
Kiwani, I absolutely LOVE your ideas of how to deal with the problem - especially the thought of giving them to the Native Americans. What a brilliant idea, considering how respectful the Native Americans were of all of their animals, along with the land and their Mother Earth. They consider(ed) many of their animals to be sacred, and I really feel that they would know best how to take care of them. I have had horses most of my life, and I have always respected the Native Americans and their way of life because they RESPECT everything. I am a white person who, more often than not, is ashamed to be white. I have long identified with Native Americans and their way of life. I decorate my house in Southwestern because of my love for the West and its heritage. That includes the Native Americans and most importantly, the Mustangs.
I wish Colorado had its own herd of wild horses, but to my knowledge, we do not. It makes me sick every time I hear from friends who are working so hard to save them that the BLM and/or government is trying to destroy them by using one form or another.
As you said, we have Bush and his lousy administration to thank for this fiasco. Again, like you, I absolutely agree that Bush should've been out of office long, long ago. In fact, he never should've been re-elected. I think the idea of a "Thank God He's Gone" holiday is terrific!!!
The horses should be allowed to roam free. Your comment about the cows eating more grass is correct. There are billions more cows than there will ever be wild horses. I agree that they could be moved to other states in the West where grass is more plentiful and definitely tall and getting out of hand. There is absolutely no need to destroy them. I'm sure the BLM hasn't bothered to explore any other options because they want the easy way out to save their precious money, so they can waste it on other things like destroying the earth.
The wild horses need to be protected at all costs. I, personally, would like to get them out from under the government's control. Oh, if only I had the power to do so. Gee, maybe we ought to turn the tables and just euthanize the BLM instead. Then we could turn our attention to the Bush Administration and euthanize them as well. That would certainly solve all of our problems.
God Bless American and God Bless the Wild Horses!!!
Comment: Colorado has four wild horse ranges.
the Little Book Cliffs ( where I got one of mine from)
Piceance Basin White River Field Office, Meeker
Little Book Cliffs Grand Junction Field Office
Sandwash Basin Little Snake Field Office, Craig
Spring Creek .
and the
Comment: Cattle do not eat more grass than horses. Cattle regurgitate and chew their cuds. Horse graze constantly. Cattle graze differently than horses, who crop very close to the ground whereas cattle graze the tops of the grass.
BLM has explored many, many options regarding the management of the horses since 1973. Many times it is the wild horse advocate groups who cause more harm than good by preventing roundups, allowing the horses to over-populate, and over graze to the point the herd health failed, the old and yound didn't have enough forage to survive on.
And no, it isn't the cattle ranchers or cattle grazing fault. Especially when the many wild horse ranges do not have any cattle grazing permits on them? Nellis WIld Horse Range has none, not one..can you explain that one?
How can explain the WH herds that are managed well, have the best year round grazing for all, have healthier and larger horses? I've seen them and the horses from those ranges are highly prized at adoptions. McCoullogh Peaks herd and Some from the Red Desert Ranges in Wyoming.
If you contributed to a wild horse group, why don't you ask them where is the land they bought to put those un-adoptable horses on? Where are their sanctuaries??
By and large, Ranchers have done more for the benfit of the mustangs than any of you have.
Oh and I have seen plenty of horses from the reservations getting run through the loose horse (killer pen).Billings Montana and Worland, Wyoming..so much for the Native American reverence for the "Mystical majestic Horse"..
Comment: From Black Hawk, Sauk
"How smooth must be the language of the whites, when they can make right look like wrong, and wrong like right."
Comment: Great stuff Kiwani ! Do you have a link to these proverbs ? Or did you assemble them yourself ? Indians had/have such a fantastic understanding about nature and its spirits.
Comment: You're right! I ABSOLUTELY agree the philosophy & spirituality of the Native/American Indian cultures is profound and full of wisdom that we (all) of us should be listening to and putting into practice. They have another prophecy, in short, says that around this time the people of the dominant (whites/European) culture will begin to awaken to what our actions & philosophy have caused and a great many people will then begin to live "with" the earth, on only "on" the earth taking all from her, caring for nothing/giving nothing in return. In other words, we will learn to live "softly" on the earth as the earlier quote suggested. The people who help bring awareness to others of traditional native philosophy are called, the rainbow people-- for bringing light & hope to the situation -- & hopefully something good at the end.
--that's what "kiwani" means in the Dakota/Lakota lanuage: "awakening" - and I am awakening to all that we have done to this earth/not done that we should--
I am interested in Native culture/philosophy/spritual practices & collect all kinds of information- quotes/cultural stories/historical info, etc...& save it to my computer si I have it always...
For thes quotes, I just typed "Native American Quotes" into Google & about 10,000+ results came back--however, I only needed to use the 1st 3-4 results to get all those quotes....
If you/anyone else is interested-- I hope you/many will do some web-surfing on this/these subjects- there's ALWAYS LOTS of links, insight, & knowledge attached inside the pages....
~~~good seeking~~~;)
blessings, kiwani
Comment: Thanks Wired--- Here's the rest of the pertinent quotes to my point(s) that I found-- they just all wouldn't fit in one post - I think maybe we should all listen (belatedly) to the wisdom of these beautiful words/thoughts & take right action to correct things, before it is toooo late:
Prophecy-
Only after the last tree has been cut down;
Only after the last fish has been caught;
Only after the last river has been poisoned;
Only then will you realize that money cannot be eaten. ~Cree Indian Prophecy
--
"Treat the earth well: It was not given to you by your parents,
It was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors,
We borrow it from our Children." ~Ancient Indian Proverb
--
Man has responsibility, not power. ~Native American Proverb (Tuscarora)
--
Dakota Prayer
Grand father---Great Spirit- Fill us with the light-
Give us the strength-to understand-and the eyes to see-
Teach us to walk the soft earth-as relatives-to all that live.
--
Comment: "The earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the Earth. This we know.
Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it.
Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself. All things are connected.
Whatever befalls the Earth, befalls the children of the Earth."
Kiwani : excellent post. Very uplifting and sad at the same time.
Chief Seattle, 1854
Comment: "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys."
-Chief Dan George
--
Where are the Buffalo? Gone.
The Great Chief in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy our land.
How can you buy or sell the sky? The warmth of the land? The idea is strange to us.
Yet we do not own the freshness of the air or the sparkle of the water.
How can you buy them from us? Every part of this earth is sacred to my people.
We know that the white man does not understand our ways.
One portion of the land is the same to him as the next, for he is a stranger who comes in the night and takes from the land whatever he needs.
The earth is not his brother but his enemy and when he has conquered it he moves on.
He leaves his fathers' graves and his children's birthright is forgotten.
There is no quiet place in the white man's cities.
No place to hear the leaves of spring or the rustle of insect wings. But perhaps because I am a savage and do not understand - the clatter only seems to insult the ears.
And what is there to life if a man cannot hear the lovely cry of the whippoorwill or the arguments of the frog around the pond at night?
The whites too shall pass - perhaps sooner than other tribes.
Continue to contaminate your bed and you will one night suffocate in your own waste.
When the buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild horses all tamed, the secret corners of the forest heavy with the scent of many men, and the view of the ripe hills blotted by talking wires.
Where is the eagle? Gone.
Where is the buffalo? Gone.
And what is it to say goodbye to the swift and the hunt,
The end of living and the beginning of survival.
~Chief Seattle 1855
--
Black Elk's Great Vision
"Then I was standing on the highest mountain of them all,
And round about beneath me was the whole hoop of the world.
And while I stood there I saw more than I can tell and I understood more than I saw;
For I was seeing in a sacred manner the shapes of all things in the spirit,
And the shape of all shapes as they must live together like one being.
And I saw that the sacred hoop of my people was one of many hoops
That made one circle, wide as daylight and as starlight,
And in the center grew one mighty flowering tree to shelter
All the children of one mother and one father.
And I saw that it was holy."
~Black Elk, 1931
--
A Great Truth
"The earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the Earth. This we know.
Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it.
Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself. All things are connected.
Whatever befalls the Earth, befalls the children of the Earth."
Chief Seattle, 1854
Comment: I meant to say that my last post, below, was posted for John Brian, as he couldn't get registered to the site.
Comment: Regarding a previous comment, anyone who states with apparent certainty that wild horses totally disappeared from North America during the ice ages simply is buying into a never proven piece of propaganda from The Corporate State's controlled government and news media, for which there has been enough fossil evidence, much of it neatly or sometimes clumsily covered up by both U.S. and Canadian authorities, which points to a conclusion that some horses DID survive here, beyond that point, while others migrated to Eurasia via the Bering land bridge. An even more outrageous government lie is the premise that wild horses are overpopulating and damaging public range lands. The fact of the matter is that consistent mismanagement of natural wildlife habitats by the Bureau of Land Management's preoccupation with corrupt land brokerage deals, consistently has squeezed these horses into smaller and smaller habitats, often in the most inhospitable terrain areas, in direct violation of the l971 Wild Horse and Burro protection law. It's as if, on the old Andy Griffith TV, the writers were to squeeze all of the residents of Mayberry into a single one block square area, eliminating all other real estate which would include Aunt Bea's house and Goober;s garage - and you would have to agree that the remaining town was overpopulated and non-sustainable. Our government's decimation of natural predators in the wild horse range areas further has contributed to this trumped up, so called overpopulation of wild horses. If anyone in the BLM and the entire Department of Interior had even the slightest regard for true preservation of natural wilderness areas, which are our planet's only effective producers of actually clean and uncontaminated air and water, they would recognize the vital importance of preserving both natural predators and the wild horses, who self regulate their own populations and co-exist in a healthy, mutually supportive way, when left alone in adequately sized natural habitats that are free from bureaucratic ineptness and corruption driven inteference.
Comment: Maybe you should nactually read the Wild Horse and Burro Act of 1971? You'll see that the ranges the horses they were on at that time were set up be the wild horse ranges. You will also see that the policy which set up the humane destruction of unadoptable excess horses was set up AT THE SAME TIME!
This is not in violation of the Law, it is in the Law! The horses ranges haven't been reduced. The only times horses have been removed entirely from a range is when the water holes dried up, fire damage, or severe drought was starving them. They get returned and have been returned when the conditions improve, that has happened.
Comment: Thank you Silvermorgan88 for mentioning how the horses today are not from the ice age-when I read that I had to laugh. I am against killing the horses, we have to remember they are not just a part of an ecosystem to be eliminated, they are unique because of their historical importance. They are not just another wild animal to be eliminated- their ancestors are part of the history of how this counry came to be. Also- diseases like were discussed were introduced into the wild by...COWS. The same cows you eat are the ones who infected the mustangs, elk, and buffalo of the midwest. Isn't it interesting that we are not killing the source? Every year buffalo are round up and slaughtered because of cattle mismangement. Crazy
Comment: this is rediculious. half of the people on here live in the city and know nothing about what they're arguing. they have no hands on expirence with the topic and are being nieve about the situation.
Comment: 1. Maybe the mustangs already are loose and that is the problem.
2. It wont do any good to expand the adoption programs besause they are having a hard enough problem getting rid of the ones that are in captivity.
3. if you give them to the indians they will just end up slaughtering the horses themselves.
4. horses were introduced into this country by man and now through mismanagement they have become feral animals, much like the dogs and cats that are EUTHANIZED every day for roaming the streets.
5. if you just turn them loose and let mother nature take its course, you will see results of inbreeding, overgrazing, delicate springs and water holes will be overrun and stomped out.
So why dont you take your romanticized western books back to the library and stick to the concrete jungle in which you reside, and let the ranchers and BLM handle the problems on the land they care for.
Comment: To kwhorseluver - RE:
Posted By: kwhorseluver @ 07/02/2008 8:32:14 PM
Comment: this is rediculious. half of the people on here live in the city and know nothing about what they're arguing. they have no hands on expirence with the topic and are being nieve about the situation.
Kiwani Response to kw:
First of all, it is NOT RIDICULOUS to have an opinion, just because it opposes yours! Second, Just because some people live in the city and have no hands-on/direct EXPERIENCE, does NOT mean they are being NAIVE when they have a differing or opposing opinion from your position/opinion.
I may not have direct/hands-on experience handling/breeding/stabling horses, BUT I DO HAVE COMMON SENSE (& COMPASSION & EMPATHY) enough to know that there may be MANY, MANY other OPTIONS for the government to apply RATHER THAN TO KILL THE HORSES!!!! I want to know---
1. Did they EVEN EXPLORE ANY OTHER OPTIONS?? It does not appear they did, or if so, not very many, or they dismissed them out of hand because it did not fit with their LAND-GRABBER/ROBBER BARON HIDDEN AGENDA!!!
2. Some other posters mentioned several GOOD ideas/options the gov't could employ-- I bet they did not even explore any...relax adoption criteria/expand adoption program to other areas as it is little known outside the West/contact Native American tribes to see if they would take the horses to graze on reservation land (hey-maybe they could PAY the tribes a fee =/to (or even <)the cost to feed them in gov't corrals OR just give them to the tribes & maybe the tribes could use the horses to start some kind of enterprise to alleviate some of the ABJECT POVERTY CONDITIONS THAT EXIST ON MOST RESERVATIONS!!!!)
OR HEAVEN FORBID--- maybe they could JUST LET THEM LOOSE!!! then they would not have to pay to feed & MANAGE them... let mother nature take over... I'm sure she's very capable & has the EXPERIENCE as she has handled situations such as this for MILLIONS OF YEARS!!! How about relocating them to some other areas where they could graze freely & maybe HELP control some of the TALL GRASSES THAT ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH ALL THE WILDFIRES around the whole of the west, HMMMMMM?????
I'm sure there are many other options that could be employed (or a variety of combined options) but I think the Hidden Agenda is overriding all COMMON SENSE & DECENCY-- if we put a man on the moon & on Mars-- what is SO HARD ABOUT SOLVING THIS LITTLE PROBLEM??? NOTHING. If one is so inclined as to think & to try!! Although, this might be TOO TAXING for the officials manning BUSH'S administration!!!!!!!
THANK GOD HE'S GONNA BE GONE--- SOON!!!! (but not as soon as this country needs!)
I think January 19, 2009 should be declared a NATIONAL THANK GOD HE'S GONE-FREEDOM HOLIDAY!! (National TGHGF-Day!!!) :):):)
Comment: I am glad you admitted you have no experience with horses at all, and the most I have seen is quotes by other Native Americans. I truly hope you did some research on this matter instead of operating on emotional opinions.
IF you did some research, you will find that the BLM has tried many, many options regarding managing the population of Mustangs. Many.
Including incentive programs to ANYONE who wanted to give older, unadoptable horses a permanent home. A couple thousand have been placed. Guess who stepped up and took most of them in? RANCHERS.. You know the very people who are getting demonized by ignorant statements. Some even went to a few tribes who asked.
Ranchers who share grazing areas in or near wild horse areas like seeing the horses, however they want the horses managed the way they are supposed to be, by the same law that gave them protection for commercial roundups. The Ranchers keep and maintain the cattle numbers within the limits alloted to them. It is only fair that BLM keep to its policy and maintain the numbers of horses in the same way. That has not been happening. Ranchers have more knowlege, education, experience and understanding of carrying capacity, eco-system, riparian areas etc, than anyone here. They know when there is more horses on the range year round the range does suffer, horses are destructive and no matter what romantizing you want to do, the evidence is still there.
The BLM and policy for removal, and even destruction of excess, unadoptable horses has been in the law since 1971-1973 and 1978. So all your Bush hating can't lay this one at his his door. Its been there since Pres. Nixon.
Comment: Well at least us city folk have enough decency to pay attention to our spell check. You sir are abusing the privilege. Are you using a laptop while riding a horse ?
Comment: way to waste everyone's time reading your comments. Shows your loss for logical argument when confronted with facts.
Comment: Not only did I waste YOUR time,but you also took the time to quote me and respond.....way to waste your own time.
I must have missed those "facts". Id also like to see the scientific survey he took to determine that "half" the posters here are from the city.Im just having some fun.
Comment: Hey Black Hawk, Sauk
Some of us feel the same way that you do. The ones who can make the right look wrong and the wrong look right are selfish and can only think of $$$. They dont see the big picture nor the true beauty and responsibilty that we have in caring for the earth and ALL of the creatures on it including the wild horse.
Comment: Hey Silver...
That was my post--- sorry, it just posted crookedly--- Black Hawk (an historical figure) was the Native American making that wise statement/quote......... :} :)
Comment: Here is the historical quote again (hopefully posting correctly attributed this time):
"How smooth must be the language of the whites, when they can make right look like wrong, and wrong like right." ~~Black Hawk, Sauk. ~~(circa 1800s)
~~ And I say: "How true the sentiment & these words really have proven to be." Kiwani, 2008
Comment: Hey Kiwani, I did vote and no it wasn't for Bush.
Comment: Hey-- you're all right! I was referring to "the others" - mindless/no-brainers "I'm gonna vote for him because he's already President-what can it hurt?" or I'm gonna vote Republican because I've always voted Republican in the past (regardless if candidate is a dork) I'm still gonna vote Republican," or "My family/parents' always vote Republican, so I'm a Republican-- it's too hard to find out about the issues & which candidate will be the most effective ON THE ISSUES--FOR the COUNTRY AS A WHOLE (rather than just the Elites)."
~~THOSE people...
...the mindless lemmings....
Comment: Like most mammals that went through the earth???s cooling down some would cross the Bering Strait land bridge connecting the North America to Asia and the yet others would travel south some staying in southern area of North America while others would head to South America. Each group evolving (i.e.: Plesippus, Hippidion) some dying out. Equus stenonis crossed back into North America along with similar forms Equus Scotti and Giganteus(which both exceeded the modern horse in size). All horses in North America would ultimately become extinct approximately 11 thousand years ago, what caused their extinction along with a variety of other megafauna is still a matter of debate especially the suddenness of the event.
It wouldn???t be until millions of years later when explorers to the new world would bring horses back to North America. The wild horses of today are not ???domesticated??? horses recently left in the wild on their own to fend for themselves. The wild horse is the descendants of horses that took part in American history. Some of these horses are the ancestors of horses that carried troops in to battle during the Revolutionary War, War of Mexico, Civil War, Indian War, the discovery of the American West and some of these horses ancestors we???re ridden by some of the West most famous outlaws. Billy the Kid, Jesse James, the Dalton gang.
For anyone to call them nothing more than feral animal is plain wrong. They are a living and breathing history and to euthanize them should be considered a criminal act. There is a saying that is very fitting and true not just about America but history in general ???History was written on the back of the horse.??? To euthanize them should be looked at as if you decided to take a demolition ball to Independence Hall or tossing The Declaration of Independence into a fire because we have it scanned on the computer and no longer need the paper (parchment) taking up space. After all Independence Hall is just another building and The Declaration of Independence is just an old piece of paper (calfskin).
Wild horses are our responsibility to care for just like any animal wild or domestic. As for the Ranchers who want them gone so they can raise even more cattle need to step back and be thankful to the horses who ancestors made their lives easier.
Maybe the government should look at the ranchers and ask them what measures they are going to take to care for the wild horses. They want grazing land to lease then the price has gone up and if there is a wild herd nearby then they will be required to look after the herd or pay for someone to do it. If they are the cause of any death or injury to the herd they will be held liable and charged with a felony and face prison time.
Comment: Ranchers don't want them gone. That is hype posted by advocate groups that say only what they want you to hear.
Ranchers don't get bigger or more grazing. The permit sizes are the same since they were laid out in 1934 and those areas are often within their own property boundaries. So to say they should take care of the herds? They already do! Horses don't know the difference between public and private land. They cross over to private land, eat the forage grown by the rancher, to support his herd through the winter. They break down fences, mingle with the ranchers own stock, etc. Ranchers have to repair those areas that were destroyed by the BLM horses at their won expense. Ranchers just want the horses managed the way BLM stated it would and is responsible for doing so. If there are 400 horses in an area allotted to support 175.. than do the math.. it is past carrying capacity for year round grazing of horses.
Comment:
Re: Posted By: flyinghippo @ 07/02/2008 4:12:39 PM
They are not even wild animals they are feral - domestic species left to fend for themselves.
I have a problem with this statement in the way it was said. First of all before ANYONE should make any statement they really should know what they are talking about do a little research on the subject. You mention that you???re a horse person. Now you do realize owning a stable full of horses and having others do all of the work doesn???t really mean you???re a horse person. You just own horses that you ride from time to time. A true horse person has done all the work gotten up during the night to care for their horses when they???ve become ill or have been injured, they DO the work they don???t just ride the horse.
Do I think you???re a ???Horse Person???? HELL NO! because a horse person wouldn???t say that they would be happier being domesticated. If you truly believe an animal that has been born in the wild and lived in the wild would be happier domesticated then you think that there should be no animal left in the wild if no one can adopt them and just kill them. What makes you think that they???re not happy right now? What makes you think that they would enjoy being locked up in a 6x6 or 8x8 foot stall? You don???t know what you???re talking about.
For example did you know that most of the evolutionary development of the horse was in North America approximately 5.3 million years to about 1.6 million years ago. The first horse that most resembles the horses of today called the Dinohippus. Fossils have been found in Colorado, Idaho, Nebraska, the Dakotas as well as Canada.
Comment: Sorry but it is a simple biological fact that they are still the same domestic species -Equus caballus. This makes them by definition feral. No matter how much history there is you can't change biology.
I am not a stable owner, I do the work myself. Just today I left my horse wander around loose and there is no way he would put a foot outside the barn because of the nasty flies. Last night at 2:00 am I thought I heard hooves on the driveway so I got up to see if they were loose (mostly worried about them getting hurt not lost) my horses were home so I walked all the way over to my neighbors house to check on hers, I do plenty of work. I feel sorry for 'wild' horses just as I feel sorry for 'wild' cats. It is just not a natural condition for them. I know people who have adopted mustangs and they are quite happy.
Comment: From Black Hawk, Sauk
"How smooth must be the language of the whites, when they can make right look like wrong, and wrong like right."
Comment: Hey EVERYONE who keeps writing SAME THINGS OVER & OVER...I have THE SOLUTION!!!
VOTE ALL THE A**H***s OUT OUT OUT OF OFFICE!! Did any of you writing this vote for a^^ BUSH? (either time??) Well, DON"T VOTE REPUBLICAN THIS TIME.... vote some people INTO OFFICE WHO ACTUALY CARE ABOUT SOMETHING OTHER THAN $MONEY$ & THEMSELVES & THEIR OWN INTERESTS- & will actually put policies into place in the BEST INTEREST of the COUNTRY as a WHOLE not for just some small section of ELITES!!! GET WISE!!! The disparity between the RICH & THE POOR (everyone else!!) is growing EXPONENTIALLY! because of Corporatism that has invaded the Republican Party... if WE DO NOT DO SOMETHING THIS ELECTION!!
a. OF COURSE, the horse survived the Ice Age-- they are HERE/ALIVE aren't they? It does not matter (& STUPID to debate) semantics of where: North America or in Europe! - THEY'RE HEEERRRREEE NOW!! We have NO RIGHT to kill masses to suit US! Let's NOT get lost/mired in minutiae of unimportant data (like if someone is patriotic or not)-- the GOV'T (& Republicans) WANT people to get off IMPORTANT FACTS & get mired in muck--DON'T FALL FOR IT - in THIS discussion OR IN CURRENT POLITICAL FIELD- they will try to blow smoke over true ISSUES to SWAY people's opinions-- PLAY on people's FEAR & DOUBTS... DON'T FALL FOR IT! (AGAIN! for 3rd time!!!)
We CAN get people to SAVE THESE HORSES IF we ELECT the RIGHT Person/people into office in NOVEMBER- If everyone here who wrote against killing horses goes out & votes & gets people THEY KNOW (family/friends) to GO VOTE, too-- WE CAN START to repair of past 7 years & begin to BUILD up our nation again to be HONORABLE & RESPECTABLE & RESPECTED for WHAT WE TRULY STAND FOR!!
b. WE MUST DO something NOW!!! -too many things/areas are screwed up!
c. Didn't Frank T. Hopkins purchase 100s/1000s of wild mustangs from U.S. gov't when they confiscated Native American ponies during genocidal 1800s policies? His life was featured in the based-on-true-events-movie, Hidalgo- & at the end he bought ALL the mustangs back & "PURPOSEFULLY" LET THEM LOOSE ON RANGE (in Oklahoma, I think)-- of couse, the horses would have roamed -MY POINT- is MANY of those horses in Gov't custody are LIKELY descendants of THOSE horses & AS SUCH, rightfully "BELONG" to descendants/heirs of Frank T. Hopkins & THE GOV'T has NO RIGHTS in confining them or in determining their ultimate outcome. Hopkins let them loose to live their lives as their inherent wild-natures yearned, & as was meant to be- LET THEM LOOSE!!!
d. VOTE IN NOVEMBER-doesn't take long-GET'em OUT OF OFFICE!! DON'T FORGET!!
e. VOTE!! -CHANGE DIRECTION OF THE COUNTRY! VOTE'em OUT!!
f. VOTE-VOTE-VOTE!!
g. NO, I'm NOT part of ANY campaign--just a CITIZEN, just a Democrat--Just A LIBERAL (& PROUD of it, too!!-by the way Liberal means BALANCED not one-sided!)--someone who LOVES OUR COUNTRY, who CARES about
Comment: I see livestock impacts everyday. i also see impacts from people on 4 wheelers trucks and herds of elk.
Comment: Brucillosis causes cows to abort unborn calves, it doest effect the meat.
Ranchers only get reimbursed if the kill can be attributed to wolves, which it always cant.
the cost to run 1 AUM or animal unit month (a cow/calf pair) is actually only $1.35.
Livestock numbers are limited based on assesments on what can be supported. Ranchers cant turn out whatever they want. No one is controlling the horses.
Comment: and may i add that Brucillosis can be transmitted to people. not good.
Comment: Point of fact to this story is that the horse that was native to North America DID NOT in fact SURVIVE the last ice age.The died out. The horse's and burro's that we have here in the west are decendents of animals the were set free by people. Yes some lines can be traced back to spanish explorers but so what. They are nothing more than feral animals that have no business here.
Comment: Regarding cattle on BLM lands, there are cattle lobbyists out there right now asking the Feds to cull hundreds of elk and bison that wander outside the park. The cattle proponents say it is out of fear of their cattle contracting bruscelliousus (sp?) but I believe it has more to do with competition for grazing.
Isn't it enough that the cattle industry gets to graze their cattle on Federal lands(read your lands and mine) for pennies on the dollar? Now they want the animals that have been there for centuries killed to reduce the competition? They put up fences across migration routes that animals have used for hundreds of years, their cattle pollute streams and rivers, erode their banks, and destroy fish populations.
The west is being pillaged and being taken advantage of by the cattle industry. I eat beef and I like it, but something has to be done. If I have to pay twice as much for it to save what was the west, then fine. But don't tell me that cattle grazing in the western BLM lands is good for anyone other than the beef industry. I know better.
Comment: and under what implication can you pronounce that you "know better"?
Comment: Great Posting CGA1 (not that it will matter to any DEMOCRAT/Liberal:
Comment: What a bunch of ignorant comments.
Bush policy has nothing to do with this.
This option for the culling of the herds was set up in 1973 and is written into the very law that gives them protection.
Where the Secretary determines on the basis of (i) the current inventory of lands within his jurisdiction; (ii) information contained in any land use planning completed pursuant to section 202 of the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976; (iii) information contained in court ordered environmental impact statements as defined in section 2 of the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978; and (iv) such additional information as becomes available to him from time to time, including that information developed in the research study mandated by this section, or in the absence of the information contained in (i-iv) above on the basis of all information currently available to him, that an overpopulation exists on a given area of the public lands and that action is necessary to remove excess animals, he shall immediately remove excess animals from the range so as to achieve appropriate management levels. Such action shall be taken, in the following order and priority, until all excess animals have been removed so as to restore a thriving natural ecological balance to the range, and protect the range from the deterioration associated with overpopulation:
The Secretary shall order old, sick, or lame animals to be destroyed in the most humane manner possible;
The Secretary shall cause suc
