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The Candor Gap

Candidates often avoid the big issues, because they involve unpopular choices and conflicts.

By Robert J. Samuelson | Newsweek Web Exclusive
Jul 9, 2008 | Updated: 11:05  a.m. ET Jul 9, 2008

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  • Posted By: MCEE855 @ 07/11/2008 6:58:57 PM

    Comment: OBAMA THEY SAY HOLDS A 8 POINT LEAD IN POLLS TO MCCAINS 41 WITH 10 PERTCENT UNDERCEIDED. WELL LET ME SPEAK A WORD TO THE WISE AND LET THEM WHO HAVE EARS HEAR AND EYES READ IF HILLARY IS NOT OBAMAS CHOICE FOR VP WE WILL HAVE A REPUBLICAN IN OFFICE I DID NOT VOTE FOR EITHER PERSON DURING PRIMARIES BUT FACTS ARE FACTS NOTHING LIKE A WOMAN SCORN THATS FOR STARTERS PLUS THIS COUNTRY MANY SO MANY WHEN INTERVIEW WILL SAY YES I'D VOTE FOR A BLACK MAN BUT WHEN THEY GET BEHIND THAT CURTAIN MOST OVER 50 WILL NOT VOTE FOR A BLACK MAN ONE MOST FIGURE WONT LAST 4 YRS WITH A NUT TRYING TO KILL HIM I PRAY FOR HIS SAFTY EVERY NIGHT.I STILL DONT KNOW WHAT OBAMA IS WHEN HE'S TALKING TO THE WHITES ITS ALWAYS ABOUT HIS WHITE MOM AND WHITE GRANDMA WHO RAISED HIM BUT WGHEN HES SPERAKING T O AFRICAN AMERICAS ITS ALL ABOUT HIS SRUGGLE AS BEING A BLACK MAN IN A WHITE AMERICA. AND THE ICYTHE CAKE TO THIS MAN IS HOW CAN HE SIT U8NDER A CRAZY BIGOT FOR 20 YRS CALL HIM HIS SPIRTUAL ADVISER BAPTIZE HIS CHILDREN AND SAY HE NEVER HE HIM SPEAK A WORLD OF HATE AGAINST THE GOV. WHITES OUR COUNTRY SITTING UNDER THIS PASTOR FOR 20 YRS HOGWASH I CALL HIM ON THAT i SIT UNDER A PASTOR FOR 12 YRS NOW AND REMBER ALMOST EVERY WORD GIVEN FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR HIM FOR US EVEN WITH HILLARY THIS ELECTION AS HIS VP I MAY NOT VOTE OBAMA HAS NOT EVER BE TESTED AND SOULD BECOME MORE SEASONED JUST LOOK AT THE GOOF HE MADE PUTTING HIS CHILDREN ON TV THE YOKE SURE WAS ON HIM

    • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/14/2008 11:48:33 AM

      Comment: ..............DEAM ON!........................PRAY FOR HIM EVERY NIGHT(WHOA! RELIGIOUS ZEALOT ALERT)?

      HILLARY IS THE SHUT - OFF SWITCH FOR OBAMA.........................IF SHE GETS ON THE TEAM, IT IS OVER!

  • Posted By: tc125231 @ 07/11/2008 12:43:03 AM

    Comment: Samuelson is worried about the candor of others....and Bill Clinton thinks most men are too obsessed with sex, I am sure.

  • Posted By: Nins @ 07/10/2008 7:29:15 PM

    Comment: Know why McCain wants to distance himself from former Senator Phil Gramm? It is not just because of Gramm's recent obnoxious remarks calling Americans "a nation of whiners" and that unemployed Americans are in "a mental recession." In fact, those remarks were so obnoxious that I wonder if they were engineered just to provide McCain an excuse for publicly distancing himself from Gramm. This issue is a lot deeper than it looks on the surface.

    When Gramm was a Senator he was chair of the Committee on Banking, and in that capacity he was able to push through the legislation now known as the "Enron Loophole." This loophole allowed US investment banks to bypass the Federal regulations governing futures trading, and is the reason why the investment banks were able to falsely inflate the prices of oil, wheat, corn and other commodities through massive futures trading, causing your costs of gas, heating oil and food to go through the roof.

    Gramm was a member of McCain's campaign team, but now Gramms' name is turning to mud. In addition to the Enron loophole, Gramm pushed through the Gramm-Leach-Biley Act in 1999, which got rid of the laws that seperate banking, insurance and brokerage activities in America. Essentially, this Act did away with all of the good laws written after the Great Depression to protect us from another Wall Street/Banking Industry collapse. That's right, Gramm stripped the system of it's safe guards nine years ago, and guess what? The value of the dollar has nose-dived, Wall Street is highly unstable, and we are in the midst of a recession.

    Now you could say that this is not Gramm's fault, that he didn't know what the outcome of his actions would be. However, it turns out that the same investment banks that benefited from the Enron loophole and from the Gramm Act gave more than a million dollars to Gramm's campaign. Uh oh. A Congressional hearing is going to be convened to investigate this. And McCain wants to have noting to do with Gramm, wants us to forget that Gramm has been a key player on McCain's campaign team. Gramm was McCain's campaign CO-CHAIR and LEADING ECONOMIC ADVISER.

    With Gramm in the driver's seat as his leading economic adviser, now you know why economists and analysts are saying that McCain's economic policy plans are untenable.

    • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/11/2008 9:21:18 AM

      Comment: When Gramm was a Senator he was chair of the Committee on Banking, and in that capacity he was able to push through the legislation now known as the "Enron Loophole." This loophole allowed US investment banks to bypass the Federal regulations governing futures trading, and is the reason why the investment banks were able to falsely inflate the prices of oil, wheat, corn and other commodities through massive futures trading, causing your costs of gas, heating oil and food to go through the roof.



      ......................................BINGO!

      ....AND IF A DEMOCRATICLY CONTROLLED CONGRESS KNOWS ANYTHING............................IT IS THAT THEY OWE LESS THAN NOTHING TO BUSH AND WILL NOT HELP HIM "HEAL" THE COUNTRY..............................SO LOOK FORWARD TO ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS OBAMA DOES AS REPEALING THE "ENRON LOOPHOLE"...........................................WHICH SHOULD, AT LEAST IN THE SHORT RUN DRAMATICLY DROP THE PRICE OF OIL/GAS............................................MAKING OUR DUDE'S ENTRANCE INTO THE WHITEHOUSE LOOK PRETTY SWEET!

      OBAMA '08!....................IT'S GONNA BE BETTER, (IT COULDN'T BE MUCH WORSE!)

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 07/10/2008 5:27:40 PM

    Comment: Certainly Bush was a lemon. Too late to vote against him. Maybe we can pee on his library wall.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 07/10/2008 5:26:27 PM

    Comment: We have lemon laws which allow us to recoup our losses from purchase of a lemon of an automobile, but we do not have a lemon politician law. What are we to do for a remedy?

    • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/11/2008 2:14:29 PM

      Comment: ....................THAT IS CALLED BUYERS REMORSE!...........................AND WE FEEL YOUR PAIN!

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 07/10/2008 5:24:55 PM

    Comment: So, the candidates are glorified used car sales people who do not tell us that the transmission is about to go out on the car that they are claiming to be such a bargain. We always elect one of them so that means that our transmission is about to go out.

  • Posted By: dredpir8rbts @ 07/10/2008 2:49:00 PM

    Comment: If people followed the law, there would be no United States of America. We would still be a satellite country of Great Britain or noone would have immigrated and the Hispanic population would own the country by default. Think about that.

  • Posted By: kirt @ 07/10/2008 1:36:09 PM

    Comment: The media has NOT focus on the issues from either canidate. The total focus has been on the soap opera things that don't matter to most Americans. Time for us to deal with our issues immagration Give me your tired, your weak but not your NON- Whites is what Paulte is saying. Boy we have along way to go seems we can't even talk about immagration without racism.

  • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/10/2008 9:48:38 AM

    Comment: IN A SORT OF DEFACTO SUBSIDE....................WE HAVE BEEN LEAD TO BELIEVE THAT CERTAIN CLASSES OF BUSINESSES CAN ONLY SURVIVE IF THEY ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE EMPLOYEES THAT WORK AT OR BELOW MIN. WAGE AND THEN THEY DON'T GET HEALTH BENIFITS!

    WHAT THIS MEANS IN THE END IS THAT WHEN THEY NEED HEALTH CARE...............THEY GO TO THE E/R AND SINCE THE E/R CANNOT REFUSE AID...................THE COST IS PUT ON THE BOOKS AS ADD ON TO THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS.................THEN OUR HEALTH CARE COST GO UP................INSURANCE GOES UP.......................HOSPITALS ARE OVERCROWDED W/PEOPLE THAT CAN NOT PAY!............................MEANING WE PAY SO THAT THAT CLASS OF BUSINESS CAN MAKE ENDS MEET!................NOT THE WAY THAT OUR IMMIGRANT FAMILIES HAD IT AND IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT WAY NOW!

    SAME THING GOES FOR SCHOOLING OF THEIR CHILDREN................OUR GOVERMENT GIVES A BONUS TO PEOPLE WHO CREATE TAX BASE USERS (CHILDREN)..................AND SINCE THE IMMIGRANTS ARE ALREADY ONLY MAKING MIN. WAGE (PAYING ALMOST NO TAXES) GUESS WHO PAYS FOR THEIR KIDS TO GO TO OUR SCHOOLS...........................MEANING GIVING TO THOSE WHO HAVEN'T PUT ANYTHING INTO THE SYSTEM!................THEN THERE IS THE FACT THAT THESE IMMIGRANTS DON'T ACCEPT OUR LANGUAGE.....................AND THEREFORE THEIR CHILDREN REQUIRE BI-LINGUAL TEACHERS AND REMEDIAL CLASSES THAT TEAR A NEW ONE IN THE TAX BASE.........THAT THEY PUT NOTHING IN!

    THAT LEADS TO THE SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM...................AND NO REASON TO EXPLAIN ....'CAUSE IT'S THE SAME STORY!

    NO COUNTRY OWES ANOTHER COUNTRIES PEOPLE A TAX PINATA OF GIFT MONEY!

    ANYONE THAT ISN'T A HABITUAL CRIMINAL SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO COME HERE.........................BUT THEY SHOULD NOT BE ENTITLED TO ANY PUBLIC ASSISTANCE FOR AT LEAST TWO GENERATIONS.........................IT WOULD TAKE AT LEAST THAT LONG TO CATCH UP WITH THE SOCIAL SECURITY PAYMENTS THAT THE FIRST GENERATIONS PARENTS NEVER PUT INTO THE SYSTEM!

    ......................AMERICAN TAX MONEY FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS..........................ONLY!

  • Posted By: Flash McGruder @ 07/09/2008 10:41:41 PM

    Comment: Unfortunately, even though these are big issues that are being avoided, talking news heads on the TV programs will likely continue to avoid talking about these issues during upcoming debates, "town meetings," and interviews. This would take testicular fortitude that they have not had since Watergate.

    IMHO, the biggest issue that is being avoided is the huge unfunded liability (i.e. future National Debt). This has been estimated by Dr. Lawrence Kotlikoff of Boston U. (or U. Boston?) as being $60 TRILLION by around 2030 (as I recall). How much of our children's taxes be paid to just pay the interest on this debt? How will we be able to support National Defense, National Infrastructure, or National essential services? How will they be able to afford a good education, retirement, or medical care? Everything is in jeopardy!

    Interestingly, much of this future National Debt is being caused by the Republicans, who flap and squawk about low taxes but are actually dumping tax burden onto the backs of the unborn. Check the figures from the Congressional Budget Office and tally up the deficits caused under the Reagan, Bush I, and Bush 2 administrations. The propaganda that the Republicans are fiscally responsible is a big lie.

  • Posted By: Flash McGruder @ 07/09/2008 10:40:25 PM

    Comment: Unfortunately, even though these are big issues that are being avoided, talking news heads on the TV programs will likely continue to avoid talking about these issues during upcoming debates, "town meetings," and interviews. This would take testicular fortitude that they have not had since Watergate.

    IMHO, the biggest issue that is being avoided is the huge unfunded liability (i.e. future National Debt). This has been estimated by Dr. Lawrence Kotlikoff of Boston U. (or U. Boston?) as being $60 TRILLION by around 2030 (as I recall). How much of our children's taxes be paid to just pay the interest on this debt? How will we be able to support National Defense, National Infrastructure, or National essential services? How will they be able to afford a good education, retirement, or medical care? Everything is in jeopardy!

    Interestingly, much of this future National Debt is being caused by the Republicans, who flap and squawk about low taxes but are actually dumping tax burden onto the backs of the unborn. Check the figures from the Congressional Budget Office and tally up the deficits caused under the Reagan, Bush I, and Bush 2 administrations. The propaganda that the Republicans are fiscally responsible is a big lie.

  • Posted By: newsweeks @ 07/09/2008 8:17:37 PM

    Comment: Cozmotie, I am a White person ashamed of other White persons generalizing about people of other races, places of origin, religion or spoken language, this is the 21st century and this is a country where discrimination should not be tolerated by anybody, we are all the same, if I bring those tags up is just to show that is very easy to generalize about others but it is not nice when people "tag" the ones like you, so I think is fair not to post discriminating comments.

  • Posted By: cozmotie @ 07/09/2008 7:40:57 PM

    Comment: So asking that our existing immigration laws be followed is wrong?.I am sure as these groups gain political power.They will have our best interest in mind.And why do people like newsweeks@ wants to make it about about white people ?.He or she feels the need to make it racial .When it doesnt need to be.My Cambodian sister-inlaws (who are legal) feel the same way.Does he think that the janitorial job that one of my black friends had.Pays so much less now because of what?.More competition from people that are willing to work for less?.Just move to one of these country's.So you will just put your own future at risk.And let the rest of us stick with our Constitution and it laws.

    • Posted By: 4carol @ 07/10/2008 2:14:52 PM

      Comment: You are absolutely correct, that is supposedly why we are a country of laws.
      What I cannot understand, is why ILLEGAL immigrants THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT OF CITIZENSHIP GIVEN TO THEM!!
      THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS...........THEY ARE ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      If our country gives in to amnesty, it will never recover again!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/11/2008 2:16:15 PM

        Comment: ................BINGO!...................THE TRUTH USUALLY CLEARS THE AIR, THANKS!

  • Posted By: dandersen @ 07/09/2008 7:33:28 PM

    Comment: Sorry ppcgm, you and your generation have paid Social Security for the past 40 years but the government has been giving that money to other members of your generation - there is nothing left. Your generation is not entitled to more than its paid in - your generation has no right indebt future generations so your not going to get it all back

  • Posted By: hesterwayne@yahoo.com @ 07/09/2008 7:15:57 PM

    Comment: I agree with you on virtually all counts.
    We as Americans must realize there is no free lunch!
    It isn't even about liberal vs. conservative. It's about truth.
    We hold our elected officials to such unrealistic standards, that we hamstring them.
    They can't do what is really best for us, because they would be crucified for it.
    We must begin discussing issues realistically and trying to understand the truth behind them.
    It is the only way.

  • Posted By: ppcgm @ 07/09/2008 7:10:17 PM

    Comment: and ... nobody is "giving" me retirement "benefits" from social insecurity ... the government has been stealing that money out of my paycheck for forty years and now I want it back, that's one promise they're going to have to keep or we'll show them a gray revolution !

    • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/11/2008 2:20:30 PM

      Comment: ..............THE CURRENT STATE OF THE RETIREMENT FUNDS OF THE "BOOMERS" ALMOST ASSURES THE GRAY REVOLUTION YOU SPEAK OF, SINCE ALOT OF THE REASON THE BOOMERS WERE UNABLE TO SAVE MUCH IS THAT WE WERE FED A ***+BULL STORY ABOUT WHY OUR COUNTRY HAS TO GIVE AWAY OUR FUTURES IN THE MIRIADE OF BILLION DOLLAR AID PACKAGES TO OTHER COUNTRIES AS WELL AS THE INSISTANCE OF GOVERNMENT TO REPRESENT BIG BUSINESS INSTEAD OF THE VOTER/BOSS!

  • Posted By: abadreview @ 07/09/2008 5:48:26 PM

    Comment: Practice what you preach dummy, "Numbnuts" is not one word. Numb nut.

    • Posted By: Weapon "X" @ 07/09/2008 5:59:13 PM

      Comment: Not the way I say it, numbnuts. Besides , this isn't a forum on spelling. It's about people like pow man who believe this fallacy that deporting all illegals would make this country better. Unless, of course, pow man is Native American. Then he may have something to say....

  • Posted By: abadreview @ 07/09/2008 5:45:44 PM

    Comment: "pow man", you represent all that is wrong with America. This nation was founded by immigrants, and we have a duty to stay true to those ideals, and open and tolerant of others. You must not have read the article very well if you think that we don't need hispanic immigration. By the way, white people in our nation commit the majority of the crimes, you just dont hear about it because our justice system is ran by bigots like you.
    There is no place in the "New America" for close-minded bigotry. By the way, learn how to spell. Or is that the fault of the "illegal mexicans" too?

    • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/11/2008 2:49:52 PM

      Comment: THE IMMIGRANTS YOU SPEAK OF THAT STARTED THIS GREAT COUNTRY WERE GIVEN ONLY THE CHANCE TO SUCCEED OR DIE, NOTHING MORE...............................WE AMERICAN TAX PAYERS OWE NO ONE THE FREE BENIFIT PACKAGES THAT OUR COUNTRY DOLES OUT TO TODAYS IMMIGRANTS.

      ANYONE WITHOUT A HARSH CRIMINAL RECORD SHOULD BE ABLE TO COME AND LIVE HERE....................................BUT IF YOU NEED FREE ANYTHING STAY HOME AND GET IT FROM SOMEONE WHO YOU MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE PAID YOUR DUES TO, WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO PAID INTO OUR SYSTEM THAT NEED OUR HELP AND THEY SHOULD GET IT! (SOCIAL SECURITY, WELFARE, FOOD STAMPS, SCHOOL LUNCHES, ETC, ETC, ETC!)

  • Posted By: abadreview @ 07/09/2008 5:40:19 PM

    Comment: It seems to me that we need the hispanic immigrants that so many Americans whine about. They are the future, hell they are building our future. America will continue to lead the world in 2050, except we will be multi-ethnic, but at the same time, we will be one people. One way to get families to have more children would be to stop with all the war, and provide a prosperous economy. Also, it is important to note that most hispanic families are larger than most caucasian families. Of course, in order for this to work, we need to start trating our immigrant s with more respect. THEY ARE OUR FUTURE. After all, this nation was built by immigrants!

    • Posted By: bikeracer @ 07/09/2008 6:19:01 PM

      Comment: You know that this country was built upon immigrants but that doesn't mean that we should have open borders. Every country needs a sensible immigration policy, don't you think? It's the idiots that don't really analyze the problems or know what is really happening that just keep spewing out tired old lines like the one just mentioned. That line applies to an extent, but illegal immigration needs to be controlled and liberals need to realize it. They are the same wealth liberals in upper class neighborhoods that enjoy being able to hire illegals cheap to fix their yards and be maids and nannys for them, while paying subpar wages. It's all about what's good for them. They are not the ones who have to have their kids getting beat up by Mexican gangs at school and have to deal with no parking spots becaue the Mexican families on both sides of you house have 6 cars each because of all the kids--who by the way are often illegal and working illegally too. .

  • Posted By: the powman @ 07/09/2008 5:37:13 PM

    Comment: We need to stop illegal mexicans coming in our country.for each they put 1 dollar in our economy they take out 3 dollars from our economy.They have killed our school system,break the law allot,drugs,drunk driving and using fake social security numbers,welfare,health cost,food stamps and housing benifits.America lets 700,000 legals in our country each year-more than all of all the countrys in the world put together and add about 20 million illagals to go with it.They are lowering our standerd of living and the list goes on.

    • Posted By: Weapon "X" @ 07/09/2008 5:41:00 PM

      Comment: Learn the English language before you post, numbnuts !

      • Posted By: newsweeks @ 07/09/2008 6:42:10 PM

        Comment: Not all illegals are Mexicans and not all Mexicans are illegals, same way as not all Americans are not haters, racist and uneducated like you, stop generalizing, hating and making up stuff.

        • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/11/2008 2:53:45 PM

          Comment: ....................CORRECT,..............HOWEVER IT IS EASY TO GENERALIZE,................ESPECIALLY WHEN BY FAR THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE MEXICANS..............AT LEAST 85%......RIGHT?

  • Posted By: mjkittredge @ 07/09/2008 5:16:42 PM

    Comment: I was reading an article saying how China will leapfrog the rest of the world eventually, because their political system doesn't involve people voting - therefore, they can make decisions that benefit their country long term, even if they annoy their people short term. Their economy is booming while America slides ever deeper into recession. America needs more innovation to rebound economically and lead the world.

    • Posted By: News and Notes @ 07/09/2008 5:35:17 PM

      Comment: Our problem is not our democracy. It is the refusal of our elected officials to make changes that may take longer to implement than an election cycle

      • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/11/2008 2:51:15 PM

        Comment: ..................BINGO!

  • Posted By: blurmon @ 07/09/2008 5:11:39 PM

    Comment: The hypothesis that Illegals use less resources continues to be thrown out there without any substantiation and remains illogically flawed. Documentation is plentiful showing they require more police and medical services as well as the uneducated wasting of water, power, and ecological resources. Note the documented distain they have for the land by the wholesale littering and looting of unsecured items near and around border towns. Note how the liberal press and liberal local governments try to hide the drain they place on police and medical services only to be outed by police unions and medical providers bleeding red due to non-payment for services incurred and rendered.

    What really is Bullshit are postings by those such as TheVigil who continues to post untruths and fairy tales according to their completely skewed worldview that completely lacks any connection to reality.

  • Posted By: Moses3815 @ 07/09/2008 4:42:31 PM

    Comment: couldn't agree more. The problem is consumerism. Americans want whats in front of them to get their belle full and fat without caring for tomorrow. Look at our country now, look at what is happenning. No one cares, they want to talk about it but no one wants to do anything.

    • Posted By: desertgirl @ 07/09/2008 4:50:15 PM

      Comment: Consumerism is not uniquely American. Nor is the desire to have a full belly. It's human nature.

  • Posted By: bammbamm1961 @ 07/09/2008 4:39:39 PM

    Comment: Great Article....... Agree 100%, they are focusing the debate on "current" topics and really need to look beyond. I have seen and I wish all US citizens could see, the graphs that show how much of the GDP is gobbled up with Medicare and Social Security in the next 20 years. That is what keeps me awake.

  • Posted By: steve02001 @ 07/09/2008 4:34:30 PM

    Comment: I disagree with Samuelson's statement that "We could refashion immigration policy to favor skilled over unskilled immigrants, because they contribute more to the economy and assimilate faster." Who does he think is going to do all the "unskilled work" when all the millions of baby boomers retire in the next decade? their kids? HA! no way. They are too spoiled to do that kind of work. And they will too busy taking over the baby boomers jobs. Face it, the U.S. is going to need these "unskilled workers." We need comprehensive immigration that takes this into account and that creates a training program to assimilate them into our society.

    • Posted By: 4carol @ 07/10/2008 2:07:42 PM

      Comment: The only problems with your analysis is that most legal immigrants want to assimilate into our society------
      MOST ILLEGALS DO NOT!!!

      • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/11/2008 2:54:37 PM

        Comment: A TRUE IMPORTANT FACT!

  • Posted By: usersuz1 @ 07/09/2008 4:27:37 PM

    Comment: A lot of this is offset by the fact that so-called Boomers are healthier than any other aging population before them, and many are either delaying retirement or are taking up another occupation after retirement. Furthermore, a lot of us object to the assumption that endless immigration is the cure for America's woes: why have Americans curbed their birth rate to achieve smaller families? The big question is why have other countries NOT done so, and shuld't they be adopting population growth reduction as a policy to combat climate change and energy scarcity? Hmmm?

    • Posted By: News and Notes @ 07/09/2008 4:57:41 PM

      Comment: The birth rate is so low in Europe that their retirement systems are in much worse shape thatn social security. There aren't enough workers paying into the system

    • Posted By: TheVigil @ 07/09/2008 4:36:50 PM

      Comment: If not for the fact that America still uses more than twice as much energy as its closest competitor - which is China, with three times our population - and dozens to hundreds of times as much as most people elsewhere in the world, your argument might actually make sense. Latino immigrants are not the ones using up vast quantities of world resources - that would actually be me, and most likely you.

      Besides which, it doesn't look like you know much of anything about population dynamics. Curbed birthrates are almost universally found in developed economies worldwide. Nearly every country in Europe as well as Japan all have steady or falling birthrates, just like us.

  • Posted By: hassan91 @ 07/09/2008 4:19:25 PM

    Comment: Being a temporary skilled worker, I couldn't agree more. I think US should pursue a policy like Canada where it encourages skilled worker immigration discourages unskilled workers. The reasons are obvious: Skilled workers are highly educated ( Masters or PhD in most cases), they support the economy by paying higher taxes etc. I mean treating everyone as if they were all illegal thugs is not the way to go if we would like our country to prosper further.

  • Posted By: fredlatendresse @ 07/09/2008 4:13:40 PM

    Comment: There are two schools of thought on Party Platforms (supposedly emanating from the Presidential candidate's political philosophy), and they are: Those who want all planks addressed; and those who live in mortal fear that they will be. A sitting President should be considered successful is they can actually 'nudge' any of the planks in the desired direction. More drastic movement results in revolutionairy change, which can ill be afforded in these (or any) trying times. Actually saying how they feel on various issues (without the assistance of a spinning puppetmaster) would be halfway there. And actually making some progress toward reconsiling the issue should be considered a success.

    Tom Malthus may have been wrong in his theory of how populations grow, but certainly no on the insidious effects of rapid, uncontrolled growth. It's keen to have more payees into the Social Security System but the price is faster depletion of non-renewable resources, overcrowding, and a probable death-blow to an infratructure that if not addressed shortly will be a pile of bricks, broken asphalt, and collapsed bridges.
    The projected population growth by 2050 will mean that our population will have tripled in 100 years. And our use of natural reources has probably increased ten-fold.

    Perhaps population growthl should be addressed generally, rather than the contributing (but limited issue) of illegal immigration. With all of the talking-heads out there we should be able to confront and address the real problems that this countryfaces; and leave the 'Mountain out of a Molehill' issues such as lapel flag pins to the cartoonists and to the 'cotton candy news media'.

    • Posted By: News and Notes @ 07/09/2008 4:58:46 PM

      Comment: If the birth rate drops too low you don't have enough workers to support the overall economic infrastructure

      • Posted By: fredlatendresse @ 07/09/2008 6:00:01 PM

        Comment: Only if you have a Zero immigration policy, and the birth rate is the sole contributing factor to population growth. Our current birth rate sustains a modicum of growth. The 'unlimited' immigration reality lies at the heart of the problem. And will ultimately result in a population density not unlike that of an ant-hill. Of course that, just like our growing National Debt, will be addressed in days that we shall not see.

  • Posted By: News and Notes @ 07/09/2008 4:07:09 PM

    Comment: Obama doesn't have the experience to tackle these issues, and McCain doesn't seem to care. Social security is a ponzi scheme funded by the poor and middle class. Our goverment ignored the oil crisis for 35 years, and it may well blow up in our face. It will be the same with these other issues. By 2030, however, Obama will have made billions and McCain will likely be dead, so they don't care

  • Posted By: j.n @ 07/09/2008 4:01:29 PM

    Comment: If were are going to discuss illegal immigration ,we need to go back to 1492 when Columbus and his gang of thieves strolled on land without green cards and started stealing from the legal residends and killing and enslaving them and finally making them illegals in their own land.

  • Posted By: 48coop @ 07/09/2008 4:01:20 PM

    Comment: Don't kid yourself. These two guys don't have a clue how to address issues like this. Not the big issues like energy, environment, Iraq, economy, education, etc. If they're lucky, it's possible that a decision may be reached on same-sex marriage since that seems to be uppermost in everybody's mind. Or, how about the old stand-by issue of abortion rights. Yeah, put all those other things back on the back burner.

  • Posted By: TomMass @ 07/09/2008 3:56:34 PM

    Comment: In response to just jerry's comment, I couldn't care less about the money UNDOCUMENTED immigrants are paying in to social security that they will never collect. It makes a suitable penalty for not following existing immigration laws. I'm more worried about younger citizens paying into social security that will never be able to collect social security unless and until the time the politicians finally get honest with folks about the financial reality of social security system. There really should be a means test for collecting social security and medicare and/or raise the age when you can collect.
    TomMass

    • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/09/2008 6:14:46 PM

      Comment: THEY DONATE ABOUT 2 BILLION IN SOCIAL SECURITY THAT THEY DON'T GET ANYTHING FOR NATIONALLY.........................BUT......................CALIFORNIA ALONE CLAIMS 68 BILLION IN UNPAID SERVICE ...................THAT LEAVES 49 OTHER STATES AND A DEBIT OF 66 BILLION!

      NOT A SERIOUS ARGUEMENT!

  • Posted By: uforje@yahoo.com @ 07/09/2008 3:55:41 PM

    Comment: Why are people so offended at the thought of having an immigration policy that favors people who are educated and have english language skills? Other countries do it and it makes sense for the larger population. I live in Queens which is overpopulated with low skill workers. They have a higher birth rate, they can't build schools fast enough and the schools have to spend more of their budgets on teaching english. cousins

  • Posted By: TomMass @ 07/09/2008 3:54:37 PM

    Comment: In response to just jerry's comment, I couldn't care less about the money UNDOCUMENTED immigrants are paying in to social security that they will never collect. It makes a suitable penalty for not following existing immigration laws. I'm more worried about younger citizens paying into social security that will never be able to collect social security unless and until the time the politicians finally get honest with folks about the financial reality of social security system. There really should be a means test for collecting social security and medicare and/or raise the age when you can collect.
    TomMass

    • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/09/2008 6:15:44 PM

      Comment: THEY DONATE ABOUT 2 BILLION IN SOCIAL SECURITY THAT THEY DON'T GET ANYTHING FOR NATIONALLY.........................BUT......................CALIFORNIA ALONE CLAIMS 68 BILLION IN UNPAID SERVICE ...................THAT LEAVES 49 OTHER STATES AND A DEBIT OF 66 BILLION!

      NOT A SERIOUS ARGUEMENT!

  • Posted By: uforje@yahoo.com @ 07/09/2008 3:52:15 PM

    Comment: I don't know why it is so horrible or one has to be labeled racist if they support an immigration policy that favors those with skills and the english language over those that don't. This is not the country it was in 1910. Get real!

  • Posted By: jasminesylphs @ 07/09/2008 3:51:43 PM

    Comment: Just Jerry. Request a social security statement. My dad just got one and he has two people in different parts of the country paying into his social security. Between the three of them (dad and the two illegals) dad can stop paying into social security five years from now at around 49.

    • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/09/2008 6:17:20 PM

      Comment: THEY DONATE ABOUT 2 BILLION IN SOCIAL SECURITY THAT THEY DON'T GET ANYTHING FOR NATIONALLY.........................BUT......................CALIFORNIA ALONE CLAIMS 68 BILLION IN UNPAID SERVICE ...................THAT LEAVES 49 OTHER STATES AND A DEBIT OF 66 BILLION!

      NOT A SERIOUS ARGUEMENT!

  • Posted By: Meister @ 07/09/2008 3:42:59 PM

    Comment: Again this is a joke coming from a guy who works for TimeWarnerAOL. You and your magazine are more worried gays, abortion, religion and defending George Bush than the "real issues". So dont point your finger at the candidates, but point it to yourself and corporate right-wing media monoply. Enough already.

  • Posted By: newsweeks @ 07/09/2008 3:36:11 PM

    Comment: This Article is just promoting hate for Hispanics (which by the way they are not all illegals and a lot of them have better education and morals than Mr. Samuelson), stop the Hitler thinking:

    "...it [Nazi philosophy] by no means believes in an equality of races, but along with their difference it recognizes their higher or lesser value and feels itself obligated to promote the victory of the better and stronger, and demand the subordination of the inferior and weaker in accordance with the eternal will that dominates this universe." - Hitler states in Mein Kampf.

    And for those persons with the "if you don't like it get out of the country" (which I doubt their ancestors were Native Americans), don't forget that your ancestors were also immigrants running away from their country or being expelled from it which in many cases spoke a different language I include this poem from the poet Emma Lazarus written on a bronze plate at the Statue of Liberty:

    ???The New Colossus??? by Emma Lazarus

    Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
    With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
    Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
    A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
    Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
    From her beacon-hand
    Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
    The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
    ???"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"??? cries she
    With silent lips. ???Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!???

    So, Mr. Samuelson, stop hating others because they are not how you would like them to be and stop loving yourself for who you are and what you have thanks to your ancestors the "immigrants".

    • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/09/2008 6:21:42 PM

      Comment: WHAT IS HATED IS NOT HISPANICS.............................................IT IS PEOPLE WHO EXPECT TO GET SOMETHING FOR NOTHING, OR............................................PEOPLE WHO SUGGEST THAT NOT SPLITTING YOUR NET WORTH IS BIGGOTRY!

      THE IMMIGRANTS THAT WERE OUR FATHERS GOT NOTHING BUT THE ..............CHANCE TO MAKE IT OR DIE IF NOT.........................ANY HISPANIC (WHITHOUT A LONG CRIMINAL HISTORY) IS WELCOME TO COME HERE AND ATTEMPT TO MAKE IT ON THEIR OWN! BIENVENITDOS, SI TU PUEDES, PERO SI TU NO PUENES...................REGRESSA 'TE!

      • Posted By: newsweeks @ 07/09/2008 7:11:19 PM

        Comment: So, you are including in your hate all those whitetrash, redneck and hillbillies that live from the government without working or deserving it, where do you want them to go back to?

        • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/10/2008 9:45:44 AM

          Comment: IT IS KINDA EXPECTED THAT THE PEOPLE YOU SEEM TO HAVE A SERIOUS BIAS AGAINST ..........................HAD PARENTS THAT PAID IN........................AS WELL AS THEY ARE............................
          ....................................................AMERICAN CITIZENS..............................IDIOT!

          IF YOU WISH TO ACTUALLY POINT OUT YOUR STUPIDITY, KEEP USING YOUR BLEEDING HEART TO REMOVE THE BLOOD FROM YOUR BRAIN!

  • Posted By: just jerry @ 07/09/2008 3:32:34 PM

    Comment: I wonder how much money undocumented immigrants are paying into social security that they will never be able to collect. how many millions of dollars every year?

    • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/09/2008 6:29:52 PM

      Comment: THEY DONATE ABOUT 2 BILLION IN SOCIAL SECURITY THAT THEY DON'T GET ANYTHING FOR NATIONALLY.........................BUT......................CALIFORNIA ALONE CLAIMS 68 BILLION IN UNPAID SERVICE ...................THAT LEAVES 49 OTHER STATES AND A DEBIT OF 66 BILLION!

      NOT A SERIOUS ARGUEMENT!

    • Posted By: j.n @ 07/09/2008 4:07:03 PM

      Comment: $10 billion in the last five years that the IRS gets to keep,that is one of the reasons that the government is willing to look the other way,that is money that is credited to no ones account.

  • Posted By: yesyoucan2008 @ 07/09/2008 3:14:06 PM

    Comment: anothercomment,
    I won't disagree with everything that you wrote about immigration in America. From your writing I take it you are a Native American Indian or have no ancestral immigration background. Bottom line is this, until there is a reform of immigration, we deal as a nation the problems with their uneducated underprivaleged illegals. Where you go wrong is to suggest that everyone can do what you have done. Some people need more help than others. If you have never accepted a form of charity, assistance or aid of any kind then consider yourself lucky. If you have and don't understand the problem then you are a hypocrite.

    • Posted By: LIKEITIS @ 07/09/2008 6:25:29 PM

      Comment: If you have never accepted a form of charity, assistance or aid of any kind then consider yourself lucky.

      IF THE ABOVE IS TRUE, ......................ALSO CONCIDER YOURSELF NOT A BURDEN ON SOCIETY AND CONCIDER YOURSELF A PRODUCTIVE SELF PROVIDING RESPONSIBLE AMERICAN!

      IF YOU NEEDED ASSISTANCE......................IT SHOULD BE THERE............ONLY ...............FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS!

    • Posted By: anothercomment @ 07/09/2008 5:23:57 PM

      Comment: I came from nothing-NOTHING!! I looked around to see how the world worked. 50 years ago there was no massive handouts honey. Families took care of their own the best they could and many times withiout. Hypocrite - you don't have a clue.

  • Posted By: kphil41212 @ 07/09/2008 3:10:25 PM

    Comment: There is no way to control immigration unless we, as a country, are willing to build a type of "Berlin Wall" around the country and order the guards posted on the wall to shoot to kill. I don't think we have the stomach for this. What we should be concentrating on is keeping out dangerous immigrants, not just poor ones. Being a poor Mexican is not a crime. I'd rather have a porr Mexican than a rich Saudi any day. Mexicans weren't responsible for 9/11, Saudis were. Saudi's with legal visas, I might add.

    • Posted By: j.n @ 07/09/2008 3:45:55 PM

      Comment: Saudis were not responsible for 9/11 unless you believe that kerosene burn down those reinforced steel concrete buildings

      • Posted By: TheVigil @ 07/09/2008 3:48:20 PM

        Comment: Fifteen of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.

    • Posted By: TheVigil @ 07/09/2008 3:18:15 PM

      Comment: No kidding. I wish we could work on sustainable solar and windfarm development with Mexico instead of pouring money into Saudi Arabia in a mutually exploitative relationship that's going to collapse (actually is already starting to) as the prices of fossil fuels skyrockets anyway. And in economic terms, most of the communities who actually have instituted mass raids on their illegals have watched local industry go to hell in a handbasket due to the lack of cheap labor.

      The economic foundation of the U.S. has *always* rested on cheap labor, since the beginning of this country's inception. Sadly, most of the people screaming about deportation and wanting to build a wall treat economics textbooks like Kryptonite...

  • Posted By: kphil41212 @ 07/09/2008 3:07:27 PM

    Comment: There is no way to control illegal immigration unless we are willing as a country to build a "Berlin Wall" around us and order the border guards shoot to kill. As a country I don't think we have the stomach for that. What we should be concentrating on is keeping dangerous immigrants out, not just poor people. Being poor is not a crime. Right now, that is basically the only criteria for entry into the US. If you have money, you get in, if you are poor, you are kept out. The sad thing is most of these "illegal" Mexicans and other Latins are working, not lying around collecting welfare, living off the public dole. That is a common misconception and easy way out.

  • Posted By: JWelhaus @ 07/09/2008 3:06:46 PM

    Comment: Rengerone314, I couldn't have said it better. It's all about the mighty dollar. Illegal aliens are taking over our country and not respecting our way of living. There are too many people allowed into this country per year whether legally or illegally. This puts a strain on the system, specifically middle class Americans. Read the quote by Theodore Roosevelt made in 1919 (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/27/quote.roosevelt/index.html). We need to go back to the immigration average of about 250,000 immigrants per year coming into this country like it was pre-1965 prior to Congress inadvertently causing it to now be over 1 million legal and unknown illegal per year. This will allow the country to adapt to immigrants, as well as, the immigrants to adapt to us.

    • Posted By: odderthan @ 07/09/2008 3:32:17 PM

      Comment: I'm curious what the statistic is regarding your chances of being killed by an "illegal alien." Additionally, people like to talk so much about the "strain on the system" caused by undocumented immigrants, without acknowledging that they support the system too.

      Immigrants pay taxes -- sales tax, and sometimes income tax if they have a fake Social Security number(they'd pay more taxes if they were paid more for the work they do) -- and some pay into Social Security without taking out. If they have a fake Social Security number, they are sending in payments that they will never benefit from.

      In addition, how can we say that illegal immigrants put a strain on the middle class without recognizing that many middle class Americans rely on their cheap labor? They are here, and we need them.

      The only things that come from continuing to demonize them are: 1) prolonged disunity and postponement of assimilation (may I remind peole that immigration is nothing new to this country?), and 2) immigrants are less empowered and less likely to be able to improve their lot, which would in turn create a self-fulfilling prophecy of making them more reliant on the system.

      Those immigration quotas that you are referring to were discriminating race-based quotas. Removing them was a step forward.

      • Posted By: JWelhaus @ 07/09/2008 4:01:39 PM

        Comment: That comment you made ???I'm curious what the statistic is regarding your chances of being killed by an "illegal alien" is that a threat?

        This issue isn't whether we should allow immigrants into the country, it's with the amount coming into the country. It sounds like people have become spoiled and they want to keep their way of life at all costs, but they really don't know what it will do to them shortly down the road. We are seeing the affects of the high immigration population right now. More people=more fuel needed=more food to produce=more fuel again=more building structures=more fuel again=more trees to cut down=more extreme weather and other environmental issues =more money, etc.

        Remember, these immigrants come into the country poor and do not pay enough into the system to support their children???s education, medical costs, and for more roadways that will need to be created, as well as, more trash to be hauled away, etc. There have been many studies (one example, By the Numbers Foundation) showing how illegal aliens and high immigration into this country actually costs the typical American (middle and poor classes) a lot more than what they save you. The reason why they are allowed into the country is simple, and this is my opinion formulated from my studies, is because the rich (Corporate America and Big Oil) profit from this occurrence while at the same time they can take tax breaks that the middle and poor classes cannot take, so their presence doesn't hurt the rich. At the same time while they build their businesses in China to make more money the value of the dollar falls. By allowing illegal aliens into the country I take it that this supposedly keeps the dollar temporarily from decreasing further. But is this actually true? Does the value of the dollar decrease slowly when all of these immigrants come into the country? I don???t think so, and many other economists don???t think so either. We have to see it for what it is, illegal aliens are illegal, and high amounts of immigration will cause us to burst like a balloon very soon. In fact, we are seeing the affects already.

        • Posted By: TheVigil @ 07/09/2008 4:39:52 PM

          Comment: He missed on his reply a bit. The guy yelling about getting murdered by an illegal immigrant was a few comments down.

          • Posted By: odderthan @ 07/09/2008 4:48:18 PM

            Comment: Oh... yeah... No, I was not threatening anyone. I was referring to the comment that you had concurred with. Sorry for the confusion. I'm interested in healthy discussion and debate, not empty threats.

        • Posted By: odderthan @ 07/09/2008 4:19:53 PM

          Comment: I agree with your assessment that big corporations are a HUGE part of the problem (again, let's make the politicians address it!).

          But, I am struck by the obvious catch 22 at work here: Immigrants don't support themselves because they are poor and uneducated, so we will punish them by keeping them poor and uneducated.

          I know you are not suggesting that we should actually "punish" immigrants, but they will get in to this country because the demand is there. Once here, if we make it inhospitable enough, they will live poor, exploited, and fearful lives. They won't become educated and successful contributors to society, and many of their children will end up in jail.

          That's why I say allowing access to education is investing in our future. In any math equation, such as the study you mentioned above, you can exclude any figure you want in order to get the results you want. But there's no way around it, and I think this follows your previous point, keeping an expoited lower class doesn't portend well for our future.

        • Posted By: JWelhaus @ 07/09/2008 4:15:33 PM

          Comment: I think I read that wrong.

          • Posted By: bikeracer @ 07/09/2008 6:50:47 PM

            Comment: Hi odderthan:
            That is a very liberal argument that you make when you say that if the immigrants don't get educated that they will end up in jail and that is somehow our fault. Essentially, what you are saying is that if we allow the illegals here, we need to also ensure that they get the best opportunities that we can offer them? I ask you, what about the opportunities for the kids of hard-working Americans that are already here that can't afford to send their kids to college and what not? You're forgetting that the only thing liberals and conservatives generally agree on is that illegals do jobs that most Americans don't want when they first get here. The problem is that they don't want those jobs for long and are soon undercutting every other higher paying job in the middle class. Then they start demanding services and benefits just like anyone else, while forgetting the reason society overlooked them coming here in the first place if they were illegal. To add more pain to the situation, they start demanding that we adapt to their language and culture rather than the other way around. We had enough of that with the blacks and the Ebonics debate.

          • Posted By: bikeracer @ 07/09/2008 6:10:17 PM

            Comment: To some extent, every society needs a poor working class to do the jobs that upper and middle class society doesn't want to do, nor envision their kids doing. Recall that the only reason most Mexicans and other immigrants are allowed here is because they work cheap. The obvious problem is that they don't want to work cheap. They are only using it as a stepping stone to take our higher paying jobs away. Their kids are competing against my kids by undercutting them in high tech jobs. The only people benefiting here are the upper class business owners that are hiring them and profiting from the wage disparity and of course the immigrant families who don't mind living with 10 people in one small house. They ruin our neighborhood by taking all the parking spots when their kids reach driving age, etc. Then the other problem is that they don't integrate well. In fact, they are going to demand that we adapt to their culture instead. A lot of you high minded liberals really don't look at reality and I think its sad that you cannot experience first hand by living in one of the ruined neighborhoods.

    • Posted By: TheVigil @ 07/09/2008 3:25:55 PM

      Comment: Indeed social services are very strained to deal with the influx of illegals. But you're ignoring the economic counterweight that a tremendous number of our labor-intensive industries have extremely cheap costs due to hiring large numbers of illegals. You take that away, suddenly the prices of fruit, vegetables, a lot of textiles to make clothing - basic necessities - are going to sharply rise, putting a strain on the poor and middle class. It's true that Americans will do these jobs, but not at the rate they're currently going.

      The quote you mentioned is "In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American..." Most of the anti-illegal movement is so racist towards Mexico that they can't lay any claim to the honor of being addressed by this statement. A woman who used her American flag to drape over my face to take away my vision before threatening me with pepper spray at a protest referres to Mexico as "Mexihole" on the message board she and her fellow protesters organize on.

      If we all followed Teddy Roosevelt's words and *welcomed* immigrants from Mexico and made a serious, sustained effort to create English programs and American law programs that aren't a joke in order to assimilate them into U.S. society, I don't think we'd have any problems and indeed we'd have a massive LEGAL labor base. But we don't do this.

      Part of the problem, I think, is that most public schools are so bad these days that they don't teach most Americans much English or any grasp of American legal principles either.

      • Posted By: bikeracer @ 07/09/2008 7:01:41 PM

        Comment: Comment to Vigil: Regarding your statement about "labor-intensive industries". Yes, the prices would go up. I say, let them go up if they have to. Whose to say that the wealthy industries are not just riding the gravy train of profits and simply not passing on the savings to the American familes that they achieve by the cheap labor? Traditionally, big corporations do not share the wealth in that way. All you have to do is look at what the bid oil companies like Exxon are doing now. If you need any evidence of that, just read the headlines almost every day exclaiming how high the oil executive salaries are going--higher and higher--to record profits. You don't see them mercifly sacrificing their profits in order to help the average citizen, do you? You don't have to be a genius to know that rich produce companies are just going to pad their own wallets with the savings. They have become used to those profits and now feel entitled to them, so when the illegal labor force leaves, they won't want to stop getting rich. So basically, your argument is correct, except for the fact that you begin with the wrong assumptions, which makes your argument wrong.

      • Posted By: JWelhaus @ 07/09/2008 3:53:32 PM

        Comment: This issue isn't whether we should allow immigrants into the country, it's with the amount coming into the country. It sounds like people have become spoiled and they want to keep their way of life at all costs, but they really don't know what it will do to them shortly down the road. We are seeing the affects of the high immigration population right now. More people=more fuel needed=more food to produce=more fuel again=more building structures=more fuel again=more trees to cut down=more extreme weather and other environmental issues =more money, etc.

        Remember, these immigrants come into the country poor and do not pay enough into the system to support their children???s education, medical costs, and for more roadways that will need to be created, as well as, more trash to be hauled away, etc. There have been many studies (one example, By the Number Foundation) showing how illegal aliens and high immigration into this country costs the typical American (middle and poor classes) a lot more than what they save you. The reason why they are allowed into the country is simple, and this is my opinion formulated from my studies, is because the rich (Corporate America and Big Oil) profit from this occurrence while at the same time they can take tax breaks that the middle and poor classes cannot take, so their presence doesn't hurt the rich. At the same time while they build their businesses in China to make more money the value of the dollar falls. By allowing illegal aliens into the country I take it that this supposedly keeps the dollar temporarily from decreasing further. But is this actually true? Does the value of the dollar decrease slowly when all of these immigrants come into the country? I don???t think so, and many other economists don???t think so either. We have to see it for what it is, illegal aliens are illegal, and high amounts of immigration will cause us to burst like a balloon very soon. In fact, we are seeing the affects already.

        • Posted By: TheVigil @ 07/09/2008 4:50:05 PM

          Comment: Bullshit.

          Every single person who argues that the social costs of immigrants are too high *universally* omits the fact that they keep labor costs low. Yes, the rich benefit from the cheap labor, but in competitive industries - which are just about all of the ones hiring large quantities of unskilled labor, because monopoly tends to cluster up in technological areas where competing standards and systems offer the chance to create barriers to entry - those prices are indeed passed on to the middle class. A lot of people think that the cheap illegal labor is one of the only things *actually* keeping the country from seeing really severe economic hardship. I haven't read enough statistics to agree, but I think you at least need to consider the effects of labor costs.

          In addition, illegal immigrants consume much less water, fuel, and et cetera than the American middle class or even the poor for the simple fact that they live in desperate poverty. Most of the time it's three to ten of them in houses made for one, and five people in a truck that should hold two. Your argument seems to imply that every immigrant consumes as much as an American middle class citizen; that's ignorant beyond belief. The most serious strain is on our medical services, but you're just lumping together everything.

          I couldn't find the Number Foundation on a search. I strongly suspect you mean the Heritage Foundation, which has been blasted hundreds of times as being notorious abusers of science to support ideological positions...

  • Posted By: just jerry @ 07/09/2008 3:02:03 PM

    Comment: One has a proven nopatisan approach- the other talks above problems. It will be interesting to find out what the people really want - feel good talk or actual solutions to the many problems ignored, or only used as wedge issues between liberals and conservatives in their never ending game of polarization.

  • Posted By: odderthan @ 07/09/2008 3:00:45 PM

    Comment: The author's point is illuminated by reading through some of these comments. These are truly HOT button issues that candidates would rather avoid. But we should ask them to discuss them, as should the media.

    Since we're on it, I'll add this: Since our population is aging, and Americans are having fewer and fewer kids, immigration is one of the key things that is keeping Social Security afloat. If you have more people retiring than working to support them, you've got big problems.

    I know some people don't like to acknowledge this -- they'd rather view immigrants as lazy, manipulative criminals -- but the truth is, we rely on immigrants. Yes, we should have better control over who gets in, but we should also recognize that we have lots of jobs, skilled and unskilled, for immigrants to fill. If we provide better opportunities for them (education, medical services, etc.), we are investing in our future.

    • Posted By: TheVigil @ 07/09/2008 3:26:21 PM

      Comment: Hear, hear!

    • Posted By: JWelhaus @ 07/09/2008 3:24:42 PM

      Comment: The issue with your theory in regard to needing immigrants due to an aging population is that they are also bankrupting the system, as well as, population growth hurts the environment. Should we cut down the majority or even all our trees to be able to house and provide other structures for people? Or should we be socially responsible and only allow into the country about 250,000 immigrants per year the way it was pre-1965. Remember that about 250,000 people leave the country every year as well. This stablizes population which will keep the middle class Americans strong. The issue arises when this happens and the rich start to lose money. They cannot have this, so this is why all of these immigrants, including illegal aliens, are allowed into the country (more people=more spending). Americans have to stop being lazy and start doing the jobs that illegal aliens are doing right now is we ever want to be a strong nation again. Social Security was not intended to be what it is today. People need to be a little more responsible for their retirement by better economic planning. This is what should be taught in school. Also, if we do what I stated above we will be a strong economic nation again, which will give us more political power to influence poorer countries to educate their people and give them a better chance to live healthier, more productive lives. Population simply cannot keep growing. Economically it hurts, but even more importantly environmental it will really hurt.

      • Posted By: TheVigil @ 07/09/2008 4:13:26 PM

        Comment: Most of the low-income Latinos I know can barely afford gas and largely have no air conditioning, those who have cars, and they're legal. Illegal immigrants usually ride buses or walk. It's not them who's wrecking the environment - it's unquestionably the rich and middle class (for instance, Celine Dion uses 65 million gallons of water a year on her Florida estate).

        You've ignored the fact that "Americans" - at least not second-generation or later - have never driven the American economic engine this country is powered by. It's always been cheap immigrant labor, from black slaves in the colonial South, to Irishmen in Northern factories and Chinese building railroads in the West at the turn of the last century, to Latino migrants in the fields and textile factories today. (I'm omitting probably several hundred ethnic groups out of brevity and I apologize.)

        And, quite honestly, if we do everything you mentioned - which is largely a moot point since you're espousing a lot of things that are never, ever going to happen - it's still not going to stave off the collapse of our petroleum-based economy in the fact of oil prices that are never, ever, ever going to fall again in true economic terms barring a global catastrophe that kills off double-digit percentages of our population or higher, which may happen due to environmental factors, but isn't likely to happen before we're in serious trouble anyway. The dollar might rise somewhat if the next president gets us back on track, but that's it.

        If you really want this country to do well economically, stop promoting immigration quotas that have about as much effect on the situation as a wall of tissue paper trying to stop an eighteen-wheeler anyway, and get behind renewable energy before gas hits the inevitable $7-10/gallon point or higher.

        • Posted By: odderthan @ 07/09/2008 4:35:36 PM

          Comment: I agree with you (and applaud your first two paragraphs), but would like to add one thing. We need to do more than just find new energy sources. Renewables aren't the holy grail that allow us to continue living our lavish lifestyles that were established during the fossil fuel years. We're going