The Plot Against Turkey

"Would you ever think of forcing to close political party because they think differently than you do on certain issues?" First, the case against AKP was not opened because they thought 'differently' but because they violated the constitution. You also accuse me of being an anti-Ataturk Gulen boy. You should join the circus since all you do is throw up insults. Do you see American's worshipping George Washington? Do you see the French worshipping Napoleon? Yet you believe the Turkish citizens should worship Ataturk.,Second, the president and vice-president of the US can also be impeached if they violate the constitution (Nixon, almost Clinton). There have been many campaigns organized by liberal Americans for impeachment of Bush & Cheney (In the US individuals get elected not parties) because they think Bush administration has violated the constitution. Similarly many Kemalists think AKP has violated the constitution -the secularism principle of constitution to be exact,When I challange right wing evangelicals in NY they offer me a ticket back to Turkey

Goksel since you asked...most of the American towns have streets named after their founding fathers, they are honored by public and politicians at every chance. In other words, gratitude for liberators is not considered paganism is the US. If we have to compare the American attitude towards their founding fathers to the Turkish one... Americans, no matter how religious they are, do not attack their founding fathers or try to undermine their legacies (even though they have been through a civil war) while we have certain groups, like Gulen & Co, who are dedicated to attack ours.

You AKP/Gulen followers are really predictable lot..."Pigs flying, dogs driving cars.." Is that what you make of evolution theory? Sso much for a self-claimed 'crticial thinker'...I do not care about Darwin's political views His theory stands on its own merit. Just let you he also married to his cousin if you want to win the argumentation through defamation. Do you examine Newton's political stance before you obey 'gravity'?

Goksel Doganay,
You have diodiagnosed me with many personal problems but you are yet to make a point or make an argumentation.

"Why don't you live in Cuba or North Korea" Since this is the second time you 'invite' me to leave my own country I should say something: It is not to say who should live where. Living part time in New York and part time in Istanbul I am very familiar with this kind of non-sense. When I challange right wing evangelicals in NY they offer me a ticket back to Turkey...when I challange right wing Gulen boys in Istanbul they tell me to go back to Yankeeland. When I defend science (Darwin) against any of you guys (assuming you are creationist) this time the choice of place is usually Cuba or North Korea. What right wing nuts like you do no understand is it is none of your business where I live.

I do not accuse you of being an American agent. You are plain old ant-Ataturk Gulen boy who is yet to come to terms with the fact that Republic of Turkey was found as a secular country. I would recommend you to suck it up but again it is not my business what you do.

Do not put words in my mouth. I explained why Gulen should be prosecuted.

Erenkoy go see a psychiatrist or maybe still go and apply to be a clown or a comedian at your local talent scout. You are seriously deluded. You are suggesting that a person has become a billionaire with people offering gifts. Do you seriously think people are as dumb as yourself? Have a read of your blog and look at what you accuse me of. This is a typical Kemalist approach to any criticism. What you are lacking is critical thinking. I don't need Gulen for me to think critically. I live in Australia and I think my commitment to democracy cannot be questioned unlike you. Your ideal country involves the state to interfere in private lives of individuals. If you decide to join an organisation such as the EU you must meet the criteria and standards set forward. If you can't comply with simple norms and standards then you are doomed to failure. You???re a typical Kemalist who is sensitive to any form of criticism and have a great phobia of religion. You argue for the prosecution of Gulen for what? Opening up a religious organisation. Gee, what great commitment you have to secularism and democracy.
I'll give you some more advice, why don't you live in Cuba or North Korea you will fit in very well. The state will provide you with 50 USD a month and food and you can also idolise Fidel Castro or Kim Jong-il. I'm sure you'll make a great fit for what they want. You can be a professor at their University and give lectures on Turkish secularism 101, how to suppress religion 102, make fruitloop arguments 103 and also how to delude people into thinking you believe in justice 104. You lack total intellectual ability and have made a fool of yourself on this blog. If anything I enjoy writing blogs to expose people like yourself for what you really are. Total failures who cast a shadow on democracy and freedom. I look forward to your next blog to see what you accuse of next. Maybe you???ll accuse me of being an American agent on the CIA payroll.

Goksel Doganay,

You are a typical Gulen boy who has no problem with lying and defamation. Probably you have been under Gulen's influence since you were a boy so I do not think I can convince you (15 years of brain wash vs. 2 paragraphs??). Let me explain anyway.

"CHP is nothing but a xenophobic, anti-western" CHP is neither xenophobic nor anti-western. Its position is very clear: Turkey has agreed to meet the criteria Accession criteria (Copenhagen criteria) so it should honor that agreement, however, Turkey is also a sovereign (something political Islam has never appreciated). EU officials should focus on how we are progressing on those criteria instead of picking sides or ordering Turkish judges how to make decision. Criticizing EU officials or biased newspapers is not being anti-western. In fact, questioning the authority and media is a very Western idea itself.

"CHP is an anti-religion party" This should be the first thing they brainwash you with at Gulen institurions. CHP does not abuse or corrupt religion AKP does.

Gulen should be prosecuted because he has been leading an organization aiming to undermine the constitutional order. I want all coup plotters and Gulen to be persecuted. You probably want Gulen & Co to replace coup plotters.

Feudal clans and religious fraternities have been one of the biggest obstacles to Turkish democracy. Several people, basing their authority on divine and feudal rights, make decisions for millions of people.

"If you seriously think that Gulen casts a shadow on Turkish society then you have problems in your personal life." Really? How? Why doguys think that some people are untouchable? Gulen has created an empire with his followers money. Erdogan's sons has become billionaire with 'gifts'. What kind of personal problems would lead one to question? I suggest you to develop similar personal problems.

Erenkoy I am glad you support democracy, rule of law and secularism. However your commitment to these principles is shaky at best and notably the secularist Kemalist section of Turkey doesn't have a good track record on these principles. You need to define what you mean by Islamic fraternity. If you want to control religious practice in Turkey this is against secularism and therefore your argument for secularism is invalid. If you believe that religious people cannot be a leader or politician then you are against democracy as freedom of association and freedom of worship are indispensable aspects of democracy. Accusing me of having a problem with the republic principles such as secularism is tragic on your part. If anyone has a problem it is you.
You have labelled any organisation that is religious as 'fraternities' and somehow against the Turkish republic and therefore against secularism. You go further and think Gulen should be prosecuted. May I ask what should he be prosecuted for? You cannot claim to be a secular republic yet oppose any form of Islamic organisation. This is against secularism and democracy. You are very confused in what you are talking about.

Let me give you advice in the difference between Gulen and a coup plotter. Gulen doesn't have guns or a secret army. Gulen to my knowledge doesn't have specialist security training. If Gulen and his followers set up Turkish schools worldwide that comply with local educational requirements then what is your problem? If a secular sensitive judiciary in Turkey acquitted Gulen of all charges he was accused of, what evidence do you have on the contrary? Do you have secret footage of Gulen organising a rebellion? Do you have evidence of secret arms deals between Gulen and arms dealers? If Gulen's schools teach Turkish at their schools, is that a good or bad? If some child in Korea learns Turkish, who has a wealthy father and invests in Turkey and opens up a factory and employs Turks, boosts the Turkish economy and less people are jobless, is this bad or good? If you seriously think that Gulen casts a shadow on Turkish society then you have problems in your personal life. No one is under any obligation to join any organisation whether it be religious or non-religious.

The opposition CHP in Turkey is nothing but a rabble. The fact that you even support the policies of this party is a joke. The vote of CHP has dropped from 50% in the 40???s to 20% in 2008. If less people are voting for this established party whereas the AKP received 34% in its first election followed by 47% in the 2008 election, then there are serious problems with the CHP. The CHP is nothing but a xenophobic, anti-western, anti-religion party that offers Turkey nothing. It is the AKP under 6 years of governance have increased the GDP, increased growth, decreased inflation and interest rates, increased foreign investment. It is the AKP that is both pro-western and in support of EU membership. If I was a Turkish citizen who should I entrust my future with?
On the contrary I have no problem with opposition. But again people like you offer no opposition. What does the CHP oppose? Let me give you a list then decide for yourself who is on the right or wrong track. CHP opposes religious freedom including non-Muslims, opposes ethnic minorities (suppressing of Kurds), opposes EU membership, and opposes foreign investment. This is not a party I will give a vote for.

Goksel Doganay,
Thanks for offering for handkerchief but it is not what I need. What I need is a rock solid democracy where prime minister. president and ,most ministers do not belong to a certain Islamic fraternity.

Downplaying Ataturk ( 'only a commander') and trying to label our commitement to Turkish revolution as paganism is not going to take you anywhere. We know Ataurk is no god the difference between you and I is that I have no problem with the Republic and its core principles (including secularism).

Yes I support rule of law. People should not live under the shadow of military coup. Those who has organized coups should be persecuted. However, I also think people should not live under the shadow of religious fraternities or local clans as well. I want leaders of these, inlcuding Gulen (he needs handkerchief by the way) , clans and fraterneties to eb persecuted as well.

If you really want democracy you should get used to opposition. We might be 20% but still have representitives in the parliament which are challenging the rulers (and you call it stirring up trouble -what ane nglightened lad you are). To tell you the truth if it was not for that 20% elite, social rights of the masses would have taken away overnight. The party of the so-called elite is fighting for the rights for free education and health care while AKP is trying to take away rights from the people knowing that as long as they stir up the religion issue they will not be questioned.

Erenkoy looks like you need a handkerchief to wipe away your sooking. If you want to drink alcohol just buy some raki and drink yourself under the table. Since when has alcohol being banned in Turkey? Since when has holding your girlfriends hand been a problem? Looks like you are very confused in what you are writing. Ataturk was a soldier who was the leader of the Turkish independence movement which ultimately let to the formation of the Republic of Turkey. But can I also add, the Republic of Turkey was not secured by Ataturk alone but by the people of Turkey. The formation of the Republic was a team effort not a one man show. Ataturk is no god and you fanatics must get over your idol worshipping of Ataturk.

If you believe in reason then please enlighten me on these concepts. Do you think Democracy is for all or for a few elites? Do you support the rule of law? Do you believe that generals should have veto power to overthrow democratically elected governments? Do you think the people should live under the shadow of a military coup? If you can't hold your boyfriends/girlfriends hand should tanks be deployed onto the streets and overthrow the government? Do you support a North Korean or Soviet version of Secularism? If a party wins 47% of an election, does a party that won 20% have the right to stir up trouble?

It is easy to claim you are a follower of Ataturk or his way, but when you argue for military coups and make trivial claims such as not holding your boyfriends/girlfriends hand or drinking alcohol then you are making yourself sound like a fruitloop rather a modern person.

Goksel Doganay, I do not think drinking alcohol, holding your girlfriends hand and her not wearing a headscarf is considered a benchmark of modernity and democracy, however, when one cannot drink alcohol, hold her boyfriend's hand or hang out without a headscarf in certain parts of a country one has reasons to be pessimistic about the state of the democracy in that county. In other words, being able to hold your girlfriend's hand in public does not QUALIFY a country as an elite democracy (e.g. Russia) but not being able to hold her hand DISQUALIFIES one (e.g. Iran and Turkey in progress) .

You said: "Gulen is not my beloved, but at least I don't have statues of one man and idolize him like you fanatics." Again thanks for being honest. I wish AKP were as honest as you are. AKP, like most of its followers -like you-, is more interested in Gulen's way (faith in modern day saints) than Ataturk's way (reason). You know this..I know this... but Newsweek does not know (or pretend not knowing).

My Aksoy's article is unfortunately highly biased and misleading the reader by showing only one part of the story but not the history behind it. What is going on at the moment in Turkey is a crime against democray and secular state of Turkey and to understand the reactions from the Kemalists one has to really understand what has happened in the past and how people fight against to keep the modern Turkish state untill now.

In order to understand what kind of a country Turkey is, one must live in Turkey and follow what is going on.
Kemalists started to resemble the West (especially Europe) in their lifestyles in late twenties and early thirties. And they forced the rest to live as what they think to be true. However, this was a limited one. Limited to dressing style, social life and so on. They have never accepted the true Western democracy, secularism and human rights. They wanted to dominate all fields of life including religion about which they have very little knowledge.
As the mass media developed in Turkey, Turkish citizens understood their underlying intentions. They tried to break this chain several times (1950- Democrat Party, 1965-Justice Party, 1983- Motherland Party, 1995- Welfare Party and finally 2002 Justice and Development Party.) Unfortunately, the Kemalists or so-called secularists didn't let this using all the legal or illegal instruments. They always neglected and undermined the Turkish people.
If a military coup doesn't help them, they will be buried into the dusty papers of history forever. As long as democracy goes on in Turkey, it is impossible for them to come to power.

Lazturk, I never said Fethullah Gulen was the most respected in the world, I said he is respected individual. Fethullah Gulen has received praise for moderation and has never preached violence. You may not like him, but to cast aspersions on him or try to diminish his achievements is totally wrong. The vote may have been a joke but the fact is he won the vote and other scholars could also have had a similar campaign and won easily as well. The Zaman newspaper is the best Newspaper by a mile in Turkey. Zaman is the best not because I think so, it is the best if you review this newspaper for yourself. Zaman does not harrass individuals about their private lives unlike some newspapers such as Hurriyet, Milliyet and Vatan. Zaman concentrates on the issues at hand in Turkey such as the rule of law, the closure case against the ruling party. Zaman has never supported military coups, or printed propaganda stories. Zaman complies with ethical journalistic standards which is a far cry from other newspapers who print tabloid junk, untrue articles and try and stir up trouble in Turkey. Zaman doesn't print every story in the name of freedom, but prints articles that are both newsworthy and doesn't go against Turkish culture.
Might I also add that Zaman has columnists who are both male and female, but also people who are non-Muslim or non-Turkish asking for their viewpoints. This set-up alone impresses me, I have only started reading the Zaman in the last three months and I must say I have finally read a quality Turkish newspaper dedicated to quality journalism rather than cheap journalism.

Readers beware. Anytime you read the claim "- Fethullah Gulen is a respected individual around the world and was voted the number one scholar in the world in a British magazine,-" I would ask you to read the below web link and a paragraph from the link to see through this contest that turned into a joke. Keep in mind Zaman is an Islamist newspaper tied to Gulen.
The only thing this showed is that Fethullah has obedient Islamist followers, which is fine if they want to consider him their ???supreme leader??? and follow him to wherever. But to call him "number one scholar in the world" .... c'mon .... how ignorant are the people who buy this nonsense.

Therefore, if someone posts that claim, it's up the other readers if they want to waste their time reading the rest of the misinformation and junk from such posts.

http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1214216964. html

???The truth turned out to be more interesting. On 1st May, Zaman???the highest-selling newspaper in Turkey, with a circulation of over 700,000 and a string of international editions???ran a story on its front page alerting its readership to the appearance of Gülen on the Prospect/FP list, and to the fact that we were inviting people to vote. Zaman is known to be close to the Gülen movement, and over the coming weeks the paper made regular reference to the cleric???s appearance on our list. The poll was also noted in other Turkish newspapers, as well as on every single Gülen website, official and unofficial, we were able to find.???

No Erenkoy I'm not a follower of Gulen movement, but if I was is that a crime? I don't hate the Turkish republic but I'm sick to death with Turkey being associated with mediocrity on the world stage. Fethullah Gulen is a respected individual around the world and was voted the number one scholar in the world in a British magazine.

Contrary to what you believe Kemalism is not a liberal ideology and its followers are not open to criticism and view any opposing view as against the Republic. This is the narrow mind of the Kemalist ideology. Kemalism is not the backbone of Turkey but a failed ideology that serves no one but the elites who have been indoctrinated by this ideology. Kemalism has not given Turkey anything positive. The legacy of Kemalism is failure, military coups, political violence, high inflation and high interest rates just to name a few. It???s not good enough by suggesting that Kemalism is liberal but has been applied incorrectly.

Kemalists assume they are modern and the AKP followers as backward without articulating why that is so. Drinking alcohol, holding your girlfriends hand and her not wearing a headscarf is considered a benchmark of modernity and democracy. Portraying the AKP as people who get involved in people's business such as couples kissing in the street just go to show how comical you look. Anybody with a grain of salt won't take you seriously. Couples have been kissing on Turkish streets before the AKP was in power and will continue to do so.

If anyone has a similar mind of democracy to Iran that is the CHP not AKP. It is the AKP that support EU membership not the CHP. It is the AKP that supports western political values not the CHP. What reservations do you have of joining the EU? What has the EU asked Turkey in order to join the EU? Improve your economy, increase freedom of expression, remove capital punishment, and increase the rule of law. These are just a sample of what is asked of Turkey from the EU and you???re having reservations? It is not enough by drinking alcohol or holding your girlfriends hand by getting into the EU Erenkoy. Kemalists don't try and disagree but stir up trouble in society and encourage military coups. This doesn't sound to me a healthy discussion about society but the ramblings of discontent by little children. This is the status of the Kemalists you can go ahead and deny it for all you want.

In terms of religiosity again I don't need to look at your friends to determine the attitude of Kemalism to religious freedom. Kemalism has a poor record on religious freedom not only on Islam but also other religions. The Kemalist idea of religious is pretty obvious.

Gulen is not my beloved, but at least I don't have statues of one man and idolize him like you fanatics.

Goksel Doganay,
Clearly you are a Gulen follower who hates the Republic (1923-2002?). Actually this is what AKP is. I wish AKP were as honest as you are -there would not be this much confusion.

AKP, Gulen, etc & Co is a social engineering project and the end goal is to religionize/clanize the society (I call it clanize instead of islamize since neither AKP nor Gulen does not represent Islam but their interests as all clans do). I spent two weeks in one of the Gulen dormitories and Gulen campaigners were very active in my highschool so I know what I am talking about.

Kemalists are the backbone of Turkish democracy. Excluding the ban on headscarf, Kemalists are truely liberal people. One can do everything, including things Islam requires, in a Kemalist neighborhood (half of Erenkoy), however., one cannot even hold his girlfriend's hand in one of your 'democratic' neighborhoods (other half of Erenkoy).

Once the AKP lot realizes that democracy is not only about being able to marry an underage girl (sick) and to to wear headscarf in the school (legimate request) but also about minding your own business and being tolerant to couples kissing on the street, they will give up on democracy. Most of AKP folks have a democracy in mind that is similar to the 'one' in Iran.

Kemalists, just like many Americans, are very sensitive about the sovereignty. And they question the foreign policy, however, this does not mean that Kemalists are anti-this or that. (I wish you guys have some backbone to criticize the party you elected). Some Kemalist have some reservations about the EU process while some desperately want to join. Disagreements and discussions are signs of a healthy society. Libertarians in USA are strongly against the idea of a Northern America Union -does that mean they are anti-Western? If you are serious about getting to EU, I would suggest you not to try to paint Kemalists as anti-European. If you convince them with your lies then the doors of EU will be shut down on us.

By the way, being familiar with Gulen PR campaigns, I know you sincerely think Kemalists are anti-religion. However, you need to know that most of my Kemalist friends fest during Ramadan. Just because one does not run a one man religious show it does not mean he is not religious. But we hate religious clans, including your beloved Gulen, that's for sure.

Erenkoy who are you try to fool by suggesting that Kemalism is a liberal ideology. Kemalism is an authoritarian ideology that is both rigid and outdated. Kemalism is a failed ideology that imposes its worldview on the people of Turkey by claiming it is a civilisation mission. The legacy of Kemalism in Turkey from 1923 to 2002 is high inflation, high unemployment, high interest rates, high rates of political violence, and high rates of human rights violations. This is Kemalism Erenkoy, you can go and on about the tales of what Kemalism introduced to Turkey, but the fact remains that Kemalism is authoritarian and not even secular. Kemalism is anti-American, anti-EU and anti-Western. The Kemalists have complained about the role of religion in society due to their own phobia of Islam, not due to their concern of Secularism. If anything Secularism and Islam go hand in hand.
Claiming the AKP to be an 'Islamist' party is a grave lie. The AKP is pro-western, pro-American, and pro-European and the only party that supports EU membership. The opposition namely the CHP is anti-American, anti-European and against full membership of entering the EU and also claiming to be a social democrat party when in fact it has no interest in social justice. The AKP has proven to be a government for the people and not Islamist with a resounding 47% of the vote in Turkey in last year???s elections and yet the Kemalists have no interest or respect for Democracy.