WORLD VIEW

Poisonous Relations

Europe needs to figure out a way to come together to fight back against Russian aggression.

NEWSWEEK
From the magazine issue dated Jul 28, 2008

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  • Posted By: Viva @ 07/26/2008 3:17:40 AM

    Amelia, I can agree with it only to some extent. Your view on the Russian history is too flat. History of any country can be interpreted differently. Why do yo?? think that your point of view is the only correct one? Even Katyn isn't a good example, because there are at least 12 official versions (sourse: www.polska.ru), and I don't mention private investigations. Why do you think that the right one is yours? I also don't think that it is correct to see the whole Russian history as something shadowy and obscure. Russia doesn't deny atrocities and crimes of Soviet era, and nobody praising Stalin here. But at the same time there is much in Russian history to be proud of, and it's normal that every country has both brilliant and dark pages of its history.
    The only thing in your post that I can agree is nationalism. The division "Russians vs. Enemies" is quite wide-spread in Russian mass media now, and in my opinion it is a shame for Russia. But not all people are nationalists. There are many patriots who admit fault of the government, but who are proud of the archievents of Russia, who want to see Russia as a strong and rich country with influence all over the world not because othey want to restore Soviet Empire, but because they suppose that Russian people deserve to live in better country. And don't mix nationalists and patriots.
    Doesn't Russia have the right for the better future?

    • Posted By: streetwise @ 08/18/2008 11:14:25 AM

      There is someone who say something positive about Stalin: he is Eduard Limonov . The point is, this gentleman (and other leaders of small groups not so different for political beliefs) are part of "Other Russia", the coalition of opposition movements lead from Gary Kasparov (yes, the "democratic" Kasparov) . Thank God, their audience in Russia (and that of Kasparov too) is too small to be worried about....

    • Posted By: streetwise @ 08/18/2008 11:05:55 AM

      Also, you cannot compare persecution of Poles in Ukraine to those millions killed by the communist regime.

      IIt's just a matter of time, means and possibilities . A genocide is always a genocide . And now ucrainian leaders are celebrating those who dit it . It is just like celebrate Stalin...

  • Posted By: five_days @ 08/08/2008 9:11:48 AM

    It is disgusting! You impudent liars. So shamelessly to deceive people. How many cost you dirt?

  • Posted By: five_days @ 08/08/2008 9:11:29 AM

    It is disgusting! You impudent liars. So shamelessly to deceive people. How many cost you dirt?

  • Posted By: Viva @ 07/29/2008 4:52:39 PM

    Natalia, I know the Economist magazine, and that it doesn't focus only on economic issues, I just against flat statements in this article about Russian hisory without knowing all the backround of it.

    I agree with you that it is important for any country to know its past, its history - both positive and negative moments of it. But at the same time, we should remember that it can interpreted differently, and position "it's true because I think so" isn't acceptable in this case. Russia is open to discuss its history if other countries are also ready for dialog. Dialog! Not removing monuments, not permitting fascist organizations act within the country, not accusations and provoking acticles and statements in the mass media.

    Speaking about the present and future... Well, yes, Russia is not democracy as it is meant in Western countries. And to tell the truth I'm not sure that it will become dimocracy during Medvedev presidency. Yes, there are many problems here such as censorship, restrictions for mass media, nationalism propaganda. But it doesn't mean that there is nothing to proud of, nothing to be improved and doesn't mean that the future of Russia is as dark as its past. There are people who want to see Russia as a strong country with good prospects. And they want it not because of superiority complex. It is not complex, it is normal wish of every normal citizen.
    Moreover, such an approach is wide-spread not only among old people, but also among the youth who didn't live in USSR and doesn't vote for Zyuganov. Unfortunately, I don't know where you are from, but don't you want the best for your country?

    And one more thing: Natalia, I want to tell you thanks for this interesting discussion. It is great to hear your alternative point of view about this issue and your arguments.
    Regards, Sophia

  • Posted By: Viva @ 07/27/2008 4:11:01 AM

    Amelia, what you've written in your post doesn't sound harsh, it's just your point of view, but I can't agree with it.
    It is false that Russia doesn't admit crimes of Soviet government. Concentration camps, KGB, illegal arrests and tortures of people who were against Soviet authorities... all of it is considered as crimes and critisized, and it is written even in school books for children in Russia. Speaking about famine in Ukraine, which you have mentioned... Here I agree with streetwise, not only Ukraine suffered from it, but also almost the whole territory of former USSR. I can say more, in Russian historical books it is also regarded as a crime, because Soviet government sold all the grains abroad so as to get profit, and its own citizens couldn't survive... All these facts are written in school books which shows that Russia doesn't deny ts past...
    I've read the arcticle from the Economist, that you have mentioned. I just can't understand.. is the author of this article a historian? Is the Economist a scientific magazine devoted to history? No. Then why do they comment historical facts as they know the only possible truth? Yes, there were a range of articles in leading Russian newspapers (they are state-controled, it's true) where it was claimed that Russia is against rewriting history. But by the way, it happened after attempts of Estonia to remove Soviet monument of unknown soldier.
    What is more dangerous - communism or nazism... I don't see any sense in such a question. Why should we compare them? They lasted different periods of time in different countries. Let them stay in the past.
    And reflecting this issue, I'd like to say more. Amelia, do you think that the real reason of strained relations between Russia and EU is that Russia doesn't sort out its history? Is famine in Ukraine the main problem of international relations between these countries? Do you belive that if Russia admit massacre in Katyn Russian-Polish relations will improve immediately? Or maybe the main problem is the increase of Russian influence? Or dependence of European country from Russian fossil fuel? As far as I see it historical misunderstanding is not the main problem of current international situation. It's like a fig leaf that the EU uses to hide really urgent and up-to-date issues. Then maybe it's more reasonable to stop rewriting history and start to solve these real problems?

    • Posted By: amelka.poulain @ 07/27/2008 3:27:46 PM

      ps. Economist doesn't cover only economic issues as the title suggest. It deals with world politics, but also science,etc. and it publishes some great special reports I reccommend you,

    • Posted By: amelka.poulain @ 07/27/2008 3:19:15 PM

      Viva, I read your posts with real interest and have to say that you set me thinking with this question: do you think that the real reason of strained relations between Russia and EU is that Russia doesn't sort out its history?"

      To answer it, first of all, I'll tell that I believe that rectifying one's history is essential to the prosperity Russia( and every other country) aspires to. Firstl,y this should be done in the name of justice so to speak - those who perished [and many members of my family were among them (sent to Siberia) ] shouldn't be forgotten. Secondly, somebody once said that those who forget their history, risk that that history will repeat and this is what I fear. It happened almost yesterday and there are people who deny it ( David Irving to name one).

      I don't really think that Medvedev will do anything. Russia's not democratic and also what's very importiant, I think that fomenting nationalism (often at praising the old regime) suits Russian politicians; Russians would like Russia to be strong once again and this is a matter of their superiority complex, their mentality in my opinion. It is therefore unsurprising that people still vote for such people as Zyuganov whose seen as a man who might restore the pre89 status quo.

      Anyway, you astound me with your "aRussianism" (or "aEasterEuropeanism" I should rather say) sentiment. (Sorry for those awful words, but I didn't know how to express myself) History is of very huge importance to us, and dwelling in it is so typical of us, and not the British or the Spanish for instance. That's good you think of future, and not focus on the past, I'd like to feel it that way, hovever I don't know. That's a tough problem anyway. Or perhaps I should try to work on my frame of reference, will think about this, with regards, Natalia

  • Posted By: streetwise @ 07/26/2008 6:59:43 PM

    Regarding the nazis that was better than communism because "it lasted less" and (consequently) killed less people, the question is WHY it lasted less . And the answer is simple: because it LOST the WW2 (even thanks to Russia) . If not, be sure, il would have last very longer, and kill VERY more people than Stalin ever dreamed of (to kill) . And for even siller reon than Stalins (not for what they DID, not for what thei THOUGHT, just for what they WERE -jews, slavs, omosex or whatever-) . Think of it becouse press the letters, please...

    • Posted By: amelka.poulain @ 07/27/2008 2:46:39 PM

      This is my personal opinion and you don't have to share my view.

  • Posted By: amelka.poulain @ 07/26/2008 5:44:34 PM

    Viva, it seems reasonable that you defend Russian history because you yourself are Russian. But, I'm not speaking of Russian history in general, but only of the communist era; you say that history of any country can be interpreted differently, but as regards Russia's recent say 50 years up to 89, it cannot be interpreted in other than hostile, bad way in my opinion. I think of history in refernece to politics only, and to culture for
    instance.

    You also said that your country " does not deny atrocities and crime of the Soviet era" but this is a blatant lie. I understand that you, being a patriot, would like the best for it and so try to in a way bleach its past, but think of the great famine in Ukraine that resulted in deaths of millions of people. It is common knowledge that this was planned (look what OSCE stand on this issue is), with some saying that it was even genocide, to which i subscribe, but the Russian authorities mantain it was not caused intentionally.

    Perhaps it sounded a bit harsh what I wrote but what I'm generally trying to say is that sorting out one's history is necessary to the well-being of a certain country, its relations with its neighbours among many. I admire my German peers who can openly talk about nazism (as so their leaders). Russian authorities on the other hand appear to do nothing in that sphere. I just read a couple of hours ago about the Russian foreign ministry criticizing Bush for amounting nazism to communism. I would even go as far as to say that communism is far worse, longer lasting and certainly taken bigger death toll, let alone its damage done to the economy, people' s mentality..

    By the way, I love Russians, I adore Dostoyevski; my own grandmother was Russian; but I think it is crucial to officialy call a spade a spade in reference to the past, and not act the other way round only not to wound Russians pride.

    • Posted By: streetwise @ 07/26/2008 6:50:53 PM

      Amelka, do you think that history of TZARIST Russia (before the communist era) was a holy, clean and glorious one ? Not at all: shining and shameful pages, all the same . As any other history of any other people in the world .
      You say "The great famine in Ukraine" . Only in Ukraine ? The whole USSR suffer famine them (where less, where more, but "more" not only in Ukraine too) . Talking about "genocide", what about the persecution of polish and other nationalities (including jews) in the ukraunuan territory during the second world war ? No, they were not the Germans (even in Babi Yar, there were more Ukrainian "nationalists" than germans, among those who shooted) . It was a good attempt of genocide, and even thousands of Ukrainians who tried to oppose to it lost their lifes . Now many of those people who performed these actions are "reevakuated" almost as "heroes" in Ukraine, and polish authorities, who talk about Katyn a day after the other, never spend a word on those insignificant facts . Is it "sorting out its own past" . I think it is not . So, who can teach who ?

      • Posted By: amelka.poulain @ 07/27/2008 2:40:15 PM

        "You say "The great famine in Ukraine" . Only in Ukraine ? "
        Don't trip me up on my own words, please. I wanted to put one of many examples of how the Soviets orchestrated mass killings. That I don't speak of famine in other parts of Russia, it doesn't mean I deny it; but what I'm trying to say is that the famine in Ukraine was on an unprecendent scale in this part of Europe

        ???Talking about "genocide", what about the persecution of polish and other nationalities (including jews) in the ukraunuan territory during the second world war???
        There are bad people within every group, every community, every country; I???m not saying all Russians are bad and Poles are wonderful people. There were many thugs in the Polish Home Army, lots of UPA murderers, but, what Russians did was carried out by the state, and the same applies to Germans. A friend of mine accused me of being unjust because I tend to speak of German concentration camps and not Natzi camps, but the fact is that nazim was a state ideology, nazis themselves weren???t only a small army of undiscipled sodiers but an element of the German political life. The same???s with Russians. Also, you cannot compare persecution of Poles in Ukraine to those millions killed by the communist regime.

        ???Not at all: shining and shameful pages, all the same . As any other history of any other people in the world???
        Of course, every country has its dark chapter in its history; the British, the French, etc. had their share in colonialism; Germany- nazism, Russians- communism; but the difference between them is that they (france, Britain, etc.) do not take pride in their past. (btw. I admire Australian prime minister to have the guts to apologise to the indigenous people for Australia???s past). It was only several months ago when I heard of some German politician praising Hitler for his beneficial inluence on the economy, and who was forced to resign because of what she said. In Russia, this would never take place; on contrary, I have a feeling, that if some Russian politician said something positive about Stalin there would be many who embraced his stance.

  • Posted By: amelka.poulain @ 07/26/2008 6:15:59 PM

    http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10639983

  • Posted By: amelka.poulain @ 07/25/2008 2:09:20 PM

    Viva, my fears are grounded in many different facts, you mentioned Russia'a communist past...It is not that I fear Russia because of this, but because its current leaders do not renounce communism for instance, its atrocities eg. (the Katyn massacre is a good example), people keep distorting history. How can you therefore speak of us to concentrate on the future if the Russians (some of them) haven't sorted out their history yet.

    Of course they can't change their history but should think differently of the past - not as something to be proud of because for many it was tantamount to Russia's strengh, imperialism, etc. This is crucial I think, given so many communist organistation operating in Russia..And still so many people praising Stalin. The authorities keep feeding on people's desire to be strong again thus fomenting nationalism, etc. This is what scares me.

    Regards

  • Posted By: Viva @ 07/25/2008 11:23:34 AM

    Amelka, I see your point.
    But official Kremlin, government of Russia, didn't take part in cyberterrorism attacks against Estonia, or at least there is no enough evidence of it. Attack was organized in different counties of different parts of the world. Moreover, Estonia provoked such an attack by its decision to remove and destroy Soviet-era monument of Unknown Soldier... Please, understand me correctly, I'm absolutely against such measures as cyberterrorism, but at the same time we can't consider it to be the example of Russian aggression...
    I also understand your worries about the increase of Russian influence. But what do you expect Russia to do? Give its oil and gas to Europe for free? Or approve the deployment of US missiles in Czech Republic and Poland? Of course, no. If Russia has economic and political tools to protect its interests why shouldn't it use them? Even if Gazprom were not state-controled it would sell fossil fuel for market price, which is very high.
    It's very simple. No aggression, only politics.
    Why are you afraid of Russia? Because it is ex-communist country? But Russia can't change its past, consequently, Russia and Europe should focus on future and find appropriate compromise without treats, accusations and groundless demands.

  • Posted By: amelka.poulain @ 07/25/2008 5:34:10 AM

    As regards my previous post, the possibility of Russia using its resources as a political tool is very feasible since Gazprom is state-controled.

  • Posted By: amelka.poulain @ 07/25/2008 5:26:06 AM

    Kangoo, you say that Russia wants to have political influence in Europe, but as a matter-of-fact, we Europeans do not want it; this is particularly true in case of the former communist countries whose fears are well-grounded I think. If Russians want to maximize its potential it needs to start use other methods than those taken from the Soviet era. You ask why we tend to speak of aggression but how can you label Russia's engagemnt in cyberterrorism in Estonia?? Instead on focuing on soft power, Russia's taking the bad path in my opinion.

  • Posted By: Viva @ 07/23/2008 3:04:36 PM

    to Kangoo
    +1. Fully agree

    I just don't see any grounds for the position which the authors of this article try to express... Agression? Threat? But every country always wants to protect and promote its own national interests. Yes, Russia wants to maximize its profits from fossil fuel. Yes, Russia wants to have political influence in Europe. Yes, Russia is ready to protect its interests. And what's wrong with it? It's natural for every country. And if the EU prefer to accuse Russia of agression instead of attempts to find compromise... Then the EU shouldn't expect Russia to refuse its interests.

  • Posted By: Viva @ 07/23/2008 3:04:20 PM

    to Kangoo
    +1. Fully agree

    I just don't see any grounds for the position which the authors of this article try to express... Agression? Threat? But every country always wants to protect and promote its own national interests. Yes, Russia wants to maximize its profits from fossil fuel. Yes, Russia wants to have political influence in Europe. Yes, Russia is ready to protect its interests. And what's wrong with it? It's natural for every country. And if the EU prefer to accuse Russia of agression instead of attempts to find compromise... Then the EU shouldn't expect Russia to refuse its interests.

  • Posted By: Kangoo @ 07/21/2008 4:02:45 PM

    to amelka
    Ukraine simply didn't want to pay the market price for the gas supply. Just get outside your house and try to take something from any vendor BELOW the indicated price I would like to see his reaction! So you'd better think before repeating propaganda rubbish.

  • Posted By: amelka.poulain @ 07/21/2008 12:38:08 PM

    I think the authors of the article have forgotten to mention the biggest threat posed by Russia, ie. its dominance in Europe in the field of energy, and which can be used as a political tool when trying to achieve something. The example of Ukraine and its gas supply being cut off serves to illustrate what disobeying to act according to Russia's wishes can lead to.

  • Posted By: chiragu @ 07/21/2008 12:51:16 AM

    Very hypocritical article. Looks like babble of offended five year old child... But i am so wondered by comments after it. It is seems the hope still exists...

  • Posted By: giltedged @ 07/19/2008 10:32:45 PM

    Russia certainly has been truthful and accurate re Iraq, Kosovo and now Iran. The US lying blatantly went to war for Iraqi oil. The British pretended to be "angry" and demanded Lugovoi be tried in Britain without supplying any motive or proof of the alleged crime and knowing full well that it is against the Russian constitution to do so. Britain in many ways is the Americans' poodle. It is right that Germany, France and Italy establish their own agreements with Russia.

  • Posted By: giltedged @ 07/19/2008 10:03:15 PM

    European countries overwhelmingly have no problems with Russia. Indeed they consider themselves lucky to have a fellow European country, non-Muslim and sharing the same culture , so endowed with resources. The trouble arises as usual with American interference which seeks to drive a wedge amongst Europeans using a tiny minority (the Albanian Muslims) non-Europeans (the Turks) bribes students etc. to stage "colour recvolutions" to hopefully steal Russia's resources.

    "colour" or some insignificant statelet

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