Democratic Convention Brings Challenges to Denver
Fundraising for next month's event is off by $10 million, Obama's stadium speech is a logistical migraine and the catering menu is a laughingstock. Don't even start with the flowers.
by Nicholas Riccardi, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer July 28, 2008
DENVER -- For nearly a decade, city leaders here have wooed the Democrats, hoping to lure their national convention to this often-overlooked town and showcase its new public transit system, bustling downtown and sweeping views of the Rocky Mountains.
Municipal leaders were jubilant when they won the right to hold this year's event. But the convention is raising questions about whether this perennial booster town has bitten off more than it can chew.
The host committee is as much as $10 million short in fundraising, and financial difficulties have forced it to cancel two dozen parties for delegates. Denver officials are scrambling to deal with the logistical challenges of Barack Obama's acceptance speech being held at an outdoor stadium instead of in the arena where the rest of the convention will take place. Even special daisies that the city bred partly to show off for the convention are failing to sprout.
Criticism has been so harsh that this month the host committee felt compelled to issue a news release defending its much-mocked catering guidelines, which recommend organic produce and color-coordinated meals and discourage fried food.
"It's an embarrassment, particularly for the political class," said Floyd Ciruli, a former chairman of the state Democratic Party who is now an independent pollster unaffiliated with the convention effort. "At this point, everybody's thinking about the burdens rather than the benefits."
Local political leaders and the host committee insist everything is fine, and that any bumps along the way will be overshadowed by the attention showered on the city next month.
"That's a little bit of white noise around the perimeter," said Mayor John Hickenlooper. "Did we ever dream we'd have a candidate of this historic magnitude? Did we ever dream we'd have a candidate who'd make his acceptance speech in front of 80,000 people and have to turn away another 80,000?"
Nonetheless, at a conference on Western issues last week, Hickenlooper referred to the event as the "blasted convention" and compared it to a summer he spent painting a house for which he was never paid. "If we'd known back then what we know now, we'd never have done it," he said, before quickly adding, "and what an incredible shame that would have been."
Last month the host committee said it was $10 million short of its $40-million target, but it now refuses to discuss fundraising totals.
Obama Abroad
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/30/2008 2:48:31 AM
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/27/2008 8:19:27 AM
Boun giorno Cielo. Ti mando un bacio di mattina. Check out the new articles later in the day. Be there or be square, Lol.
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/27/2008 9:34:29 AM
Buongiorno, e un bacio per voi, Pia Z! I'll check out the new stuff! BTW, to catch up on a few posts below:
New X-Files movie came out this weekend.
bisou = bacio
s???enlacer = abbraccio
La tua voce? Ho una grande immaginazione
And finally...
Libra! Non lasciate che preoccuparsi di voi! Le stelle non sono sempre diritto sapete!
-Sky-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/27/2008 10:15:04 AM
Buon giorno occhi azzuri e grazie per il tuo bacio-bisou. E delicioso, delicioux! OMG. Lol!
XFiles movie- will you go see it soon?
Abraccio=hug
Libra e perfetto. Libras sono molto gentile.
La tua imaginazione-My piace un omo con grande imaginazione.
Sky, I hope I didn't leave anything out in my post, if I did, I apologize. I am in a hurry. Hope to catch ya later today on the new articles so we can continue our Italian and French lessons. We can even discuss Signore Berlusconi and Monsieur Sarkozy. Ciao for now.... and another bisou coming to you, lol. Let me know if I'm too much, thanks.-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/27/2008 12:22:48 PM
Pia! - delizioso? Sì, il tuo bacio è stato molto delizioso!
I'll probably wait a week or so for X-Files to let the crowds die down.
Abbraccio per voi!
Scorpio - Determined, intuitive, passionate, exciting and magnetic. Vedo nei tuoi messaggi - che sei tu!
Too much??? troppo adorabile! No, you're not too much!
Talk to you later! - Azzurro Ciel-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/27/2008 7:52:42 PM
Buona sera Cielo. Come stai? Io ti o mancato oggi.
Delizioso=perfect. You spelled it correctly. I did not. Glad to know you found it so delizioso.
XFiles-I am planning to go see it next month.
My scorpio sign traits- I'm not sure I possess them all. Most people who know me think of me as being somewhat reserved yet friendly, kind and tolerant, and last but not least ,but very unfortunate, naive. I don't know about my magnetism. Am I magnetic? I know I am intuitive. I strongly agree that I am passionate. I feel pass. for life and I display strong passion for my beliefs. Btw, I am going to look up your sign, the balanced scales. I can tell that about you already.
Too much- you said 'no signorina.' Well good.
'See' ya on the new articles this evening.... PS Have you been practicing rolling your R's today?-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/27/2008 8:01:04 PM
PS- Cielo, scusi, o dimenticato di scriveri l'abbraccio per te. Ti mando un 'huge' abbraccio!
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/27/2008 9:09:13 PM
Pia - La ringrazio, sono ok.. Tuttavia, voglio io eravamo al Lago di Como oggi! It is hot here in Dallas!
II am fond of Scorpios! E sì, si sono magnetiche, less I probably wouldn't be talking with you here! lol
Sì, tu mi hai mandato un grande abbraccio, grazie!I e una per te, come sempre!
I really have been practicing my R's. Not sure if you'd really want to see it as it's comical!!!
Hope you're having a good day!
-Sky-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/27/2008 10:51:54 PM
Cielo, prego. Sono contenta che tu stai okay.
Sorry it's hot in Dallas. No thunderstorms yesterday? Pity, you could have used the rain. It is warm and very humid here. We had a Tstorm this afternoon. Cooled the air.
Lago Como sounds wonderful. I have never been there. Let's go! Oh, btw, there is a community down the Jersey shore where I go, it surrounds a lake that was recently renamed Lake Como. Interesting,-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 1:50:58 AM
Quote: Lago Como sounds wonderful. I have never been there. Let's go! quando mai si è pronti!
Oppsss!!! I promised I'd slow down.... ok, I won't be bad anymore!
-Sky-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 7:06:49 AM
GM Sky. Be careful with the Lake Como offer. I may take you up on it. Lol!
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 9:21:11 AM
Che sarebbe divertente, sì? I have seen pictures of Lake Como. Isn't is near Milan? I could live there!
The place you describe at the Jersey shore sounds beautiful... do you go often?-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 9:51:36 AM
GM Sky. Lago Como, yes, it would be a great trip, I'm sure. I have never been to Lake Como nor to Milan. I don't know if LC is near Milan. Btw, I saw your 'miele' post and replied. Were you being sarcastic because of my mean post to Sharenews? I was only telling it like it is. Sky, do you think I am mean? I think I am sometimes . But only here. I am defending my candidate that's all. Outside of here, I'm very 'succhero'.
Hey! How many mispellings and bad grammar have you counted in my comments to you just this am? Should I look ashamed? Perhaps a certain girl is doing this on purpose for attention..................
Ciao occhi azzurri. Will look for you later il mio miele.........lol...-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 6:18:53 PM
I looked it up, LC is near Milan. I am moving there, I think.
Sarcasm? No, no, a thousand no's! (more trivia! - sarcasm. Latin.sarkazo, meaning 'to tear flesh') I save that for others, non la mia cyber miele! lol You are NOT mean! We Librans are very perceptive (some to the point of psychic), and after reading all of your posts (and in between the lines of course), I can tell you're anything but mean. You are spirited, and I love the way you make your stand and defend your candidate. I think it is incredibilmente attraente!
I hope you've had a good day! Talk to you later tonight!
-Ciel-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 10:44:40 AM
Sky, you are so nice. Thank you for saying all of this. I try to defend my candidate, Obama. That's all I can do because I don't know all that much about politics but I do know when a candidate is being unjustly attacked, accused and lied about.
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/29/2008 6:16:07 PM
Obama è davvero un uomo fortunato!
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 6:58:18 PM
Sky, you must be Italian. You write the language so perfectly. Seriously, are you? Been pulling my leg?
Is Obama lucky? I'm probably sabotaging more than I am helping him . I'm so. 'duh'.-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/29/2008 10:06:56 PM
Lol... no, as I said, I'm German/English (Germish?) But I do love the language.
I am a contractor... a builder, and I hire with many Hispanic craftsmen, (and other nationalities), and speak with them daily. Some are very fluent in English, others are not. They have taught me a lot regarding Spanish, and in turn, I work with them in English. There are many, and we have a deep respect for each other. Most Americans don't know how eager they are to learn our language. Having learned it from birth, American's sometimes don't realize how difficult English is to learn. (Like French) Having droned on about this ; ) Italian and Spanish are similar, and that's why it appears pretty good.
In the end, you've not heard me speak.... however you should listen to our guys chide me! (all in fun) Lol is the order of the day... especially when I try to roll my R's! - Cielo-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/29/2008 10:18:31 PM
I just re-read this. I hate the little box we have to type in.... I always seem to make typos! Anything positive you put out there helps your candidate. I truly do want the best man to win. BTW, as I mentioned, I come from a large family... and not all of us are Reps. We 'get it on" on a regular basis, but still love each other very much. Maybe that's why I appear to be fairly balanced here. Speaking of Rep.... I just got off youtube listening to Repuplica's 'Ready to go' lol... love the piano in that song! -C
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 11:20:42 PM
Sky, I'm going to play Republica on Youtube.
Sky, missed me?-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/30/2008 12:55:19 AM
Certamente! Enjoy Republica!
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 10:28:29 PM
Hey, Cielo! Buona sera. Piacere di vederti! Come stai?
Sky, I can tell you come from a large and loving family. You are a very, very sweet and respectful man.
I saw on another of your posts that you called me mignon. Shrimp? Lol. I am. You must be big and tall, not that it would matter if you were not.-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/29/2008 10:46:49 PM
Pia Z - Shrimp? You are so adorable! Shrimp: gentil) = nice, good, cute. Take your pick, Honey! -C
BTW, I am 6' 1"-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 10:59:21 PM
Aww, thanks C. You are too kind. I don't deserve any praise.
I had a feeling you were tall. Hey, can I have a couple of inches? If you do, you get bisous.-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/29/2008 11:15:27 PM
Of course you do! pollici? Whenever you need 'em... I've been tall long enough! And for a kiss, ciò che un buon affare! lol!
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/30/2008 12:09:45 AM
Okay. Dove andiamo adesso? Un 'article' differente, non politico?
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/30/2008 12:44:46 AM
Good question... how about the link I placed at the top of this site... it is very slow there and it'll be easy to decide where to go from there. I agree... something not so political.
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/29/2008 11:40:47 PM
Come arrivare tipo di angusti qui, no?
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 10:34:58 PM
Germish, cute!
Your employees/co-workers must like and respect you very much. You treat them well.
As a contractor do you build residences, businessess, both?
Sky, your Italian is fabulous. You def. don't need any lessons from anyone. I do, lol!
So, what else is going on? How was your blogging day? Anything new I may have missed?-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/29/2008 11:01:06 PM
Yes, our guys and I get along very well. It is genuine... as for me, I can see it in their eyes.
We do both commercial finish out and residential work. Thank you for your compliment regarding my Italian, but as you know, it is so proper! (all to do with the way I am learning it) I just don't know anyone who can't help me with everyday stuff, except you!
And my blogging? I laughed with Cloudy today as you know... I really like him.... he IS the wittiest guy on the sites, and I tangled with Driver, over at the Sober page. He's a tough one....
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/27/2008 12:22:43 PM
Pia! - delizioso? Sì, il tuo bacio è stato molto delizioso!
I'll probably wait a week or so for X-Files to let the crowds die down.
Abbraccio per voi!
Scorpio - Determined, intuitive, passionate, exciting and magnetic. Vedo nei tuoi messaggi - che sei tu!
Too much??? troppo adorabile! No, you're not too much!
Talk to you later! - Azzurro Ciel
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/27/2008 9:41:39 AM
It's s'enlacer.... sometimes this site can' pick up apostrophes! ???? lol
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 10:49:23 PM
Hello Sky! Would the posts be one about the band Republica? If so, I saw them and replied thanks.
So, Azzurro, how are you this evening?-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/29/2008 11:28:59 PM
Hi Pia!.... that is the place! I am fine this gorgeous evening in Dallas! The posts down there are getting so squashed, that they're almost impossibile leggere! I really like this page, but it has become so large that I think maybe it will come to an end soon. Join me somewhere else, Pia Z?
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 11:45:05 PM
Hey! How are ya?
The posts are getting squashed down below. Tempo di partire. Lead the way....-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/30/2008 12:05:17 AM
This site has become a monster... it's dying. Takes forever just to get a d. box open! Here's Mark Salter's article at NW... not much going on there... http://www.newsweek.com/id/147768/output/comments
(I hope that's right.). meet you there. -C
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/28/2008 4:12:06 AM
America Wants to Drill Now
Rush Limbaugh.com July 25. 2008
The thing that's most on people's minds is not Baghdad, it's not Iraq, it isn't Afghanistan, it isn't Germany, it's not the Victory Column, it's not Obama. It's the economy.
"Congress will likely break for the summer without passing legislation to curb high gasoline prices, but Americans are fashioning their own energy policy founded on conservation and support for more production."
Once again, a huge opportunity for all Republicans.
The American people in great numbers want us to drill. They don't want to hear drivel from Democrats. It's drill versus drivel and the Democrats are the ones that are standing in the way of it and everybody knows it.
In addition to that, remember back when the President had his press conference when he announced he is lifting the executive order on domestic drilling and some New Castrati in the Drive-By press corps: "Mr. President, Mr. President, are you going to tell the American people to conserve? Are you going to tell the people to turn off their thermostats and turn off their power sources and drive less, Mr. President?" Remember that question? And what was Bush's answer? Bush says, (paraphrasing) "I don't need to tell them that. They're grown-ups, they know what to do, know what to conserve." They are doing it: "Americans are fashioning their own energy policy, founded on conservation and support for more production.
A new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll finds that energy -- including gasoline and utility costs -- ranks as the economic issue that voters say affects them the most personally."-
Posted By: raddave @ 07/28/2008 11:57:40 AM
Davole, you do realize that Rush Limbaugh is not an objective source, don't you? According to the gallop poll, 61% believe that conservation will lower the cost of gas, while only 29% believe that increased production will lower costs.
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/28/2008 10:41:21 PM
raddave -
Yes, I realize that Rush Limbaugh is not an objective source.
But I do believe that he is keenly aware and capable of in-depth analysis of the effect of certain variables on political considerations, decisions, and results.
I haven't accessed the new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll to which he refers, but I believe that he would be correctly reporting its findings regarding energy -- including gasoline and utility costs -- ranking "as the economic issue that voters say affects them the most personally."
I do believe that the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll would trump any unstated (giddy-up) gallop poll in reliability.
I believe that you have previously divulged that you are military, or at least that you reside on a military base.
Is it not advantageous to gain as much detailed information about your opponent before engaging in battle? If so, instead of just dismissing Rush Limbaugh as subjective, it might be worth "intercepting" your opponent's communications by regularly listening to his 3 hour daily radio program.
I believe you would learn quite a bit!-
Posted By: raddave @ 07/29/2008 1:09:24 PM
I have listened to Rush Limbaugh many times and the only thing I have learned from him, is that he carries on the devisive politics that myself and many others are sick of. You know what I mean, that all conservatives, good. All liberals, bad mentatlity. On the other hand Air America spews the same crap, just in reverse, and I do not listen it either.
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 11:10:46 PM
I have listened to Rush a few times. It was enough. No more.
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/29/2008 9:30:12 PM
raddave -
Is Hot Air America still broadcasting - I thought that it had been "deep sixed" long ago?
I suspect that gorgeous George Soros is just continuing to broadcast reruns in order to keep his small pool of listeners "fired up".
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/29/2008 10:41:12 PM
Pia Z... must have just missed you. I left you a couple of posts for you way on down there! -Sky
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Posted By: Cloudosmoke @ 07/29/2008 2:03:36 PM
Left you all some comments down below somewhere in all that mucky muck of bloggin.
PS, Pia they have been bringing your name up on other comment boards. You better get em before I do.-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 10:40:34 PM
Cloud, thanks, I saw your post. Cute!
Thank you, I did look for posts about me on some other articles and I have not found anything negative as of yet. I am sure that there are some negatives floating around. I suppose I'm a bit infamous now, lol!
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Posted By: Cloudosmoke @ 07/28/2008 8:36:54 AM
November is fast approaching and McCain has no representation. He does not know what to do with his campaign. He has no vision, he has no support, he has policy. Obama knows what's best and has a vision. Support Obama and vote for him for President.
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/28/2008 10:06:15 PM
Cloudosmoke -
Have your pantlegs dried out yet?
And despite all of your biased allegations that John McCain is so inept, somehow he seems to be statistically tied with Barack Obama in several voter opinion polls, and gradually gaining on him.
Now how do you explain that?
If McCain is inept, then Obama must be grossly inept, "doncha think"?-
Posted By: Cloudosmoke @ 07/29/2008 1:54:10 PM
I don't believe in polling at this point since there is no indication of true voter turnout. It's not even Conventions yet and there are still people that have yet to register. Once the Conventions are over, there will be the Get Out the Vote drive to register voters, then let's talk.
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/29/2008 9:46:55 PM
Cloudosmoke -
We're "on the same wavelength" here about the relative unimportance of polls at this early date.
As I had mentioned previously in a post about 3 or 4 weeks ago - at this point in time, polls are just
convenient outhouses for male canines.
But it does appear, at least from a few mainstream media sources, that the democrat party is perplexed and dismayed by Barack Obama's inability to achieve a sizeable lead over John McCain in the various polls to date.
And just a friendly word of caution - stay clear of any polls - those male dogs might just be unable to discern the difference, and leave you with a few more wet pantlegs.
Have a good one!
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/28/2008 4:03:30 AM
Our view on Iraq: Why can't Obama admit the obvious? The surge worked
USA Today Sun. Jul. 27, 2008
In January 2007, America's adventure in Iraq seemed like a chaotic failure. The country was riven with sectarian violence, and al-Qaeda in Iraq had gained a foothold in western Anbar province. Attacks on U.S. troops were running well over 1,000 a week, and Iraqi civilians were dying at a rate of more than 3,000 a month.
In that context, President Bush's announcement that month that he planned to "surge" more than 20,000 extra U.S. troops into Iraq felt to many critics, including Sen. Barack Obama, like doubling down on failure.
A year and a half later, though, violence is down dramatically and there's a cautious hope that both the U.S. and Iraq could achieve an outcome once seemed out of reach.
The surge didn't do all of that; a cease-fire by Shiite militias and the switch by Sunni insurgents from attacking Americans to fighting al-Qaeda helped enormously. But the extra U.S. troops, brilliantly deployed by Gen. David Petraeus, have made a huge difference in calming the chaos. In doing so, it also contributed to the other developments.
Why then can't Obama bring himself to acknowledge the surge worked better than he and other skeptics, including this page, thought it would? What does that stubbornness say about the kind of president he'd be?-
Posted By: Cloudosmoke @ 07/28/2008 8:54:36 AM
The surge is a lie in the beginning because the war is a lie. So stop trying to get an answer to a question of Bush Policies. Bush wanted a war for money and now wants a history of reconciliation. Won't work. McCain needs to admit he was wrong for voting for the war in the first place. That's what he needs to say. Obama doesn't need to say anything. He was for the war on Terror, not the war On Saddam Hussein.
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/28/2008 9:48:40 AM
Cloudofsmoke -
The surge is not a lie - it is a fact - and it has worked!
Live life in the real world, not in denial of reality!-
Posted By: Cloudosmoke @ 07/28/2008 9:52:51 AM
You telling me to live life in the real world and are ready to vote for McCain? BWAH HAHAHAHAHA. Not funny. Anyone ready to vote in McCain is a person that can have their leg peed on and believe it's raining. Now that's funny.
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 10:23:35 AM
Cloud, Davole is Canadian. I am flattered that he is so interested in our election. I mean that Davole.
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/28/2008 8:07:34 PM
Pia1981 -
Thanks for "setting the record straight" regarding my nationality and country of residence.
I am not a US citizen, and therefore, I will not be voting in the November general election.
I guess it would be fair (no, change that word to accurate) to say, in reference to cloudosmoke, that you have "popped his balloon" for me on this one.
Or should I have said - temporarily dispelled his cloud?
Maybe he should check his own pantleg, for he may have wet himself laughing too hard.
Somehow that expressed laughter of his may have suddenly resulted in a choking situation.
If so, I hope that it is only temporary, for I do enjoy conversing with him.
Again, Pia1981, thanks - I owe you one!
As you can see, I do still respect you, even though we are on opposite sides of the aisle!
Whenever, take your best shot at me, and I'll try to take it easy on you in return.-
Posted By: Cloudosmoke @ 07/29/2008 1:57:46 PM
Guess I need a Canadian to keep the diversity on these boards. Get me some free scrips too. Home of the best and worse healthcare on the planet. Best being I can get all the painkillers I need and the worse, I can get all the painkillers I need. Just ask Peter Griffin.
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/29/2008 9:16:41 PM
Cloudosmoke -
I've heard that our Canadian pharmaceutical industry has received an order from the DNC for a massive quantity of Prozac and other painkillers - they will be distributed free, at DNC expense, to the democrats who bother to attend their convention.
Thanks for the lucrative profitable business.
We'll follow up that order with another one for the same group in November.
Who says that a democrat can't be happy?
Gee, then it might be quite difficult for us to tell a democrat from a Republican.
Or on second thought, naw - it will be quite easy - the democrats will be distinguished by their glassy-eyed countenance.
Keep on popping!
Here's "lookin at ya" (see, we speak American too)!
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 10:39:16 PM
Davole you are welcome but all I did was relay info that's all.
Not to worry, I don't want to argue/fight with you or anyone else. I'm usually not like that. I'm neither catty nor mean.-
Posted By: Davole @ 07/29/2008 4:32:45 AM
Pia1981 -
Thanks for your reply.
I never considered you to be mean - in fact, I believe that a few of my replies even confirmed that.
As to the consideration that you might be catty, since you do have a few cats, maybe they might occasionally rub off on you - that isn't necessarily a bad thing - that's being affectionate.
By the way, my cat wants me to say hello for him to you and yours - Meow!
p.s. - In my estimation, you might even be a chiacciarella - in a pleasant and entertaining sort of way!-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 9:31:45 AM
Davole, you remember my posting that I have cats? Chiacciarella? You mean a chatterbox. No, not really. I'm usually a quiet person.
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/28/2008 9:53:12 AM
Cloudosmoke -
I apologize for adding the letter "f" in the relative middle of your screen name - it was not intentional.-
Posted By: Cloudosmoke @ 07/28/2008 9:56:23 AM
No problem.
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/29/2008 2:51:51 PM
Hey Cloud! thx, I'm still laughing! left you a post-
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Posted By: Omaar @ 07/29/2008 12:22:19 PM
Note: John McCain: A Long Term, Lifelong Career Politician & Elitist who Knows what Afghanistan NEEDS, yet has Not Visited Afghanistan in (2 YEARS), Yet McCain Criticizes Obama, although Obama has Experienced Counsel.
So Much for John McCain's so called and self titled .... "Military Experience"
Bah Hum Bug !!!
Jim Webb & Wesley Clarke...Real Viet Nam Heroes...
John McCain: Fact..Graduated Last in his Class, No Military Command in Viet Nam, Fact..6 Wrecked Planes, Fact..Air Plane Shot Down, Becomes a VIET NAM POW, Fact..Semi-Tortured an when the Viet Cong, realized they had a Navy Admirals son, they gave him Special Treatment, Fact...Mccain Devulged Classified Information to the Enemy and those same Jailers in Viet Nam Endorse him Today...Fact..MCain was dubbed the "Singing Bird"..Fact..McCain Devulged (Classified Information) to the Viet Cong and McCain made Several Anti-American Video Tapes in Support of the Viet Cong, that are Now Classified, Forever, Known Facts. Yet he is a Senator and is Running for President of the USA, Most Military Men, Dislike McCain.
Had this been anyonelse he'd Never ever Represent a State or Government.
Only in America....
Note: John McCain has yet to get the Military Endorsement from General Patraeus, to this day and was told by Patraeus's Staf, "To Stop, Using his Pictures and Images in McCain's Campaign"
Yet Another Glaring & Glowing Fact about Mr. "I Know How to Win Wars" John McCain
What Successful wars, has McCain Ever been a part of and what Military Strategies has McCain Concieved, Created and the Joint Military Staffs Implemented and Aplied in any Successful War(s)
Ans: NONE !!!!
So Much for John McCain's "Military Experience" when the Bulk of McCain's Military Experience was spent as a Prisoner Of war in Viet Nam...
Thats what Wesley Clark was talking about and its ....TRUE !!!
So much for McCain's Military Know How and Experience in Winning Wars !!!
What a Joke and he's Counting on the Simple Minds that look at his Military Uniform and won't think to QUESTION his Military Records and History.
Go Vote for "Citizen Cane", Er Um, The "Real Manchurian Candidate"...
I Mean Senator John McCain...Your Strong Steadfast and True Military Patriot !!
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Posted By: Omaar @ 07/29/2008 12:21:06 PM
Note: Fellow Viet Nam Vets Chime in on John McCain and his so called "Torture" at the hands of the N. Viet Namese !!!
A declassified DOD document reports an interview between POW McCain and Dr. Fernando Barral, a Spanish psychiatrist who was living in Cuba at the time. The interview was published in the Havana Granma in January 1970.
According to the DOD report, the meeting between Barral and McCain (which was photographed by the Vietnamese) took place away from the prison at the office of the Committee for Foreign Cultural Relations in Hanoi. During the meeting, POW McCain sipped coffee and ate oranges and cakes with his interrogator.
While talking with Barral, McCain seriously violated the military Code of Conduct by failing to evade answering questions "to the utmost" of his ability when he, according to the DOD report, helped Barral by answering questions in Spanish, a language McCain had learned in school.
1973 - McCain was released from the Hilton on March 15, 1973.
Two Former POWs Say They Doubt McCain Was Physically Abused
1999 - March 25, 1999, The Phoenix New Times: Ted Guy and Gordon "Swede" Larson, two former POWs, who were McCain's senior ranking officers (SRO's), at the time McCain says he was tortured in solitary confinement, told the New Times that while they could not guarantee that McCain was not physically harmed, they doubted it.
"Between the two of us, it's our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in that camp [known as "The Plantation"]," Larson says. ". . . My only contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at The Plantation, to the best of my knowledge and Ted's knowledge, he was not physically abused in any way. No one was in that camp. It was the camp that people were released from."
Big Note: In 1993, during one of his many trips back to Hanoi, McCain asked the Vietnamese not to Make Public the Records they hold Pertaining to Returned U.S. POWs.
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Posted By: Omaar @ 07/29/2008 12:20:02 PM
John McCain's Collaborations:
During his 23rd mission over Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, Lt. Commander John McCain was shot down by a surface-to-air missile.
To relate the event, McCain later recalled that he was "flying right over the heart of Hanoi in a dive at about 4,500 feet, when a Russian missile the size of a telephone pole came up--the sky was full of them--and blew the right wing off my Skyhawk dive bomber. It went into an inverted, almost straight-down spin. -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
"I pulled the ejection handle, and was knocked unconscious by the force of the ejection--the air speed was about 500 knots. I didn't realize it at the moment, but I had broken my right leg around the knee, my right arm in three places and my left arm. I regained consciousness just before I landed by parachute in a lake right in the center of Hanoi, one they called the Western Lake. My helmet and my oxygen mask had been blown off. "I hit the water and sank to the bottom . . . I did not feel any pain at the time, and I was able to rise to the surface. I took a breath of air and started sinking again." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
After bobbing up and down, he was eventually pulled from the water by Vietnamese who had swam out to get him.
A mob gathered on shore and McCain was bayoneted in the foot and his shoulder was smashed with a rifle butt. He was put on a truck and taken to Hanoi's main prison.
After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his captors who wanted military information from him, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
McCain was taken to Gai Lam military hospital normally unavailable to American POWS. (U.S. government documents)
"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain.
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Posted By: Cloudosmoke @ 07/28/2008 9:34:41 AM
McCain has voted against VA benefits such as medical facilities, outpatient care and increasing the funding. Suicides are on the rise. And also 22,000 vets, I REPEAT 22,000!!!! vets have called the Suicide Hotline with him in congress and Bush at the controls. That's utter craziness. No one should have to go through what our troops have gone through. I have family and friends in the service that have to deal with this crap and McCain will only make it worse. He doesn't know what goes on in the VA hospitals because he never visits the troops!!!
McCain doesn't want to know what goes on with the veterans because he doesn't know what to do with problems they face. Obama has a vision to cover the woes that plague out VA system. Once we attain a coalition of countries to fight terrorism then we can focus on the United States and our economy. We need to bring countries together to fight terrorism instead of trying to fight it by ourselves. He has already set that in motion. Once that is accomplished we will be able to really say, yes we can!!!
McCain is a "we can do it all by ourselves" fame seeker. Can't solve any problems that way. It will only make things worse.
Obama is the candidate for the future. 22,000 vets on the verge of taking their own lives and all the militaries are asking for our true support come November.-
Posted By: Davole @ 07/28/2008 10:32:38 AM
Cloudosmoke -
You allude to your illusion that there are "22,000 vets on the verge of taking their own lives."
How did you come to your conclusion?
Maybe you might care to venture outside that delusional cloud of smoke to breathe some real fresh air to help revive your mind, if that is possible.
Are those mystical 22,000 all democrats? That would explain it!
If Barack Obama were to manage to delude the US voting public and steal the election, how many military service personnel would end their current tour of duty at the earliest opportunity to display their opposition to Obama as the commander-in-chief?
Maybe that would require the reinstatement of a draft or conscription policy in order to facilitate Obama's expected redeployment of US troops from Iraq to Afghanistan (instead of returning them home), and also his probably invasion of the sovereign country of Pakistan.
Gee, all those radical blindly protesting university and college students might manage afterall to gain a real education. Come to think of it, that might be advantageous for the nation.
And I guess that would probably require our Canadian government to tighten our border policy to deny admittance to the probable flood of US draft dodgers.-
Posted By: raddave @ 07/28/2008 11:45:36 AM
Davole, The RAND cooperation reported that number, cloudosmoke did not make it up. To say that they are all on the verge of taking their own lives is misleading also, but 22,000 soldiers have called the suicide hotline.
Since the niether the military nor the suicide hotline ever ask members about political affiliation, THERE is now way to know if they are democrats. So you question about them all being democrats is nonesense.
Last year alone aprox. 188 active duty soldiers have killed themselves. This has nothing to do with their party affiliations or what political party is in control of our Government. It is because of the stress of repeated combat tours. I personally know two soldiers that have killed themselves in the last two years.
Military members do not include the factor of who is commander-in-chief, when deciding to re-enlist or not. As an 18 year veteran of the military, I have NEVER heard a soldier saying they were going to get out because of who the President was. Military members realize that we do not serve the President of the U.S. but rather serve our country. There has NEVER been a mass exodus from the military to protest the current President.
So NO retention levels will not decline if Obama WINS the presidential election to a point where a draft will be instituted.
So you cannot say "vote for McCain, or the soldiers will leave the military."-
Posted By: Davole @ 07/29/2008 3:52:35 AM
raddave - continued
Just because you have ???NEVER heard a soldier saying they were going to get out because of who the President was,??? that doesn???t negate the probability that a soldier would retire and thereby avoid having to serve under the command of a leader who had attacked the integrity of General Petraeus after he had delivered his assessment of the progress made so far in Iraq. I am not aware of any other possible Commander-in-chief ever having done that type of insult to the military before. So, just because it has not happened before doesn???t assure that it won???t happen in the future.
You assert that ???So NO retention levels will not decline if Obama WINS the presidential election to a point where a draft will be instituted???.
In my unqualified opinion, that remains to be seen if the circumstance should ever happen.
You know that a lot of those soldiers currently serving multiple tours of duty are exhausted, and desire to return home to their families. If Barack Obama expects to shift the forces currently serving in Iraq to Afghanistan, and even implement a surge there (which many democrats believe will fail, just as they claim it has in Iraq), and to also invade the sovereign country of Pakistan, in order to apprehend Osama Bin Laden, so that he can be tried and possibly be released by a civil court, the military members contemplating re-enlisting may just say - No way, Jose!
And I sure wouldn???t blame them.
Lastly, in regard to your statement - ???So you cannot say "vote for McCain, or the soldiers will leave the military."
I made no such statement. Reread my previous reply - I merely posed a relevant question.
I would suggest that you pay extra attention to detail.
Soldier, with all due respect - Stand down - don???t try to put words in my mouth in an attempt to distort what I have said! Is that understood, and do we agree in that regard?-
Posted By: raddave @ 07/29/2008 11:46:15 AM
Obama has never attacked the integrity of Gen. Petraeus. Obama did in fact vote yes in the nomination for Gen. Petraeus to be the Commander of Military Leader in Iraq. To disagree with Gen. Petraeus's assessment, it not an attack.
Also, Obama doesn't want to shift the forces from Iraq to Afghanistan. He wants to send to additional brigades to Afghanistan. this is about 3,000 soldiers, not the 145,000 that are in Iraq. Do you honestly believe that Bin Laden would be found not guilty? First of all, I do not believe that he will be taken alive, and if he was, he should be tried in an American criminal court.
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/29/2008 4:00:54 AM
raddave - continued
I agree with your contention that since neither ???the military nor the suicide hotline ever ask members about political affiliation, THERE is now way to know if they are democrats.??? But I do not agree with your comment that my ???question about them all being democrats is nonsense???. Generally, democrats tend to regard themselves as hopeless helpless victims much more than Republicans do. That was the inferred point of my argument.
I accept your assertion and regret the reasonable fact that ???last year alone aprox. 188 active duty soldiers have killed themselves???. But I dispute your conclusion that ???it is because of the stress of repeated combat tours???, at least entirely. In any random population, there is always a significantly average number of persons, not necessarily soldiers, who would commit suicide. And several of those soldiers could have committed suicide due to other factors, such as having received ???Dear John??? letters, rumours that their spouse was sleeping with other convenient surrogate partners, the reported death of family members or friends back home, financial problems, unrelated health problems, etcetera.
You state that ???military members do not include the factor of who is commander-in-chief, when deciding to re-enlist or not???. I agree that most military members would complete their tour of duty irrespective of whoever was the Commander-in-chief.
But in regard to re-enlistment, I believe that many individuals would decide to retire if they did not have respect for and confidence in the current Commander-in-chief. I do respect your 18 year career and dedication to the military, but just because you have not heard anyone voice that concern, does not necessarily mean that it isn???t so.
Besides, do you not remember that it was the democrat party which insulted the military during and after the Vietnam war by the likes of John Kerry and others calling the valiant soldiers who had fought ???war criminals who had murdered women and children???? And that incited many campus radicals to actually spit in the faces of returning veterans, to mock them, and even to assault them.-
Posted By: raddave @ 07/29/2008 11:30:15 AM
Again, I maintain that history has shown that there has never been a mass exodus from the military because of a change in the commander-in-chief. Most soldiers realize that politicians come and go, but the military is always there.
As for "democrats insulting the Vientnam veterans" specifically John Kerry calling them war criminals. This is false. Here is the quote in which John Kerry mentions war criminals
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals." As you can see, he did not call soldiers in Vietnam, war criminal, but in fact called the leaders who established policies and strategies, war criminal. Many of the DEMOCRATIC party are vietnam veterans, to include John Kerry. To say that the radicals who spit on soldiers are members of the democratic party is also misleading. They might be registered as Democrats, but they are not members of the Democratic Party.
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/29/2008 4:05:45 AM
raddave -
I apologize for the fact that it has taken me this long to reply to your comment. I???ve been busy, and it has taken me quite a while to put together this reply.
First of all, I noticed that the article to which you refer was published by the Associated Press.
I have seen a few of their articles concerning other topics previously, and I was disappointed by their lack of attention to detail. They had drawn conclusions, without enumerating the methodology of their survey. What they had offered as fact was definitely fiction, and the surveys had been instigated, funded, and interpreted by some very biased special interest groups.
In this particular instance, the number 22000 was reported. That supposedly is a fact. But I could not ascertain that 22000 soldiers had verifiably called that soldier???s suicide hotline.
I appreciate statistics, I ardently studied statistics in university, and I am aware of the potential fallacy of what could be reported as a statistic.
Nowhere in the AP article could I discern whether that 22000 was in fact the number of soldiers who had called the hotline, as opposed to whether the total number of calls themselves totaled 22000. There is a marked difference. I would have expected, that if 22000 soldiers had called, the RAND organization would have confirmed that 22000 soldier case identity numbers were assessed. Now if 22000 calls were received, some of those calls could have been placed by several individuals who had each called a multitude of times. If that were the case, then the number 22000 is not statistically accurate. Also, a minor portion of those calls could have been accidental wrong number calls.
And I do appreciate your stating that ???to say that they are all on the verge of taking their own lives is misleading.???-
Posted By: raddave @ 07/29/2008 10:59:43 AM
The article did say that the hotline had received over 55,000 calls I was wrong in or aspect, the article stated that 22,000 veterans, not soldiers called the hotline. A number of these veterans are probably not veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
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Posted By: Cloudosmoke @ 07/28/2008 10:53:23 AM
22,000 veterans have called suicide hot line
Phone line was launched last July after complaints VA wasn't doing enough
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25875340/
Associated Press Article
I'm sure the number of devoted servicemen and women would breathe an air of relief to get away from this war of riches in Iraq and face the true enemy of terrorism and extremism in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
There are people that are willing to serve their country. The Iraq war has left a bad taste in many peoples' mouths. Once our young people in West Point, Annapolis, Air Force and the other academies graduate, they will be able to effectively reinstitute a failed recruiting process based on this failed war on terror. The Iraq war for the worse has breached an area of trust for people wanting to serve the country.
However it has also emboldened voter turnout to stand up to a system of waste, fraud, corruption and destruction. The voters that will line up to the voting booths will say "Change We Can Believe In."
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/26/2008 3:07:03 PM
Ciao Cielo Azzuro! Dove vai?
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/26/2008 3:51:15 PM
Hi Pia Z! I am here! I left you a post in French further down.
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/26/2008 6:52:10 PM
Ciel Azzuree, I neglected to add in my post below that your French in that post to me is magnifique! I wanted to say marvelous but I'd probably mispell it. Meravillieux?
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/26/2008 9:09:00 PM
"Merveilleux" I'm impressed! Close enough for horseshoes! Merci mon ami doux!
- Ciel Azzurre-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/26/2008 9:41:09 PM
Lol sky! Impressed? I mispelled it big time. You are so sweet though. Molto dolce.Just like tiramisu, my fave. I rarely have dessert for dinner, but tonight I will pretend I did.
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 1:34:12 AM
siete dessert!
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 11:07:20 AM
OMG. Cute, Sky.
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/26/2008 4:26:33 PM
Got it, thanks Cielo Azzuro.
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Posted By: raddave @ 07/27/2008 1:10:58 PM
UNHoly, the only crook is Larry Sinclair. Sinclair has a 27 year criminal history, including a 16 year sentance for forgery and theft. There is a warrent for Sinclair's arrest in Colorado for forgery. In February, the website offered Sinclair $100,000 if he could pass a polygraph, which he failed.
These are the same smear tactics that the Bush campaign used against McCain in 2000 when among other things they claimed that McCain had an illegitimate black child, and was a homosexual.
Larry Sinclair is a crook and you UNholyRoller are a fraud.
GOBAMA!!!!!-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/27/2008 2:20:59 PM
Raddave, I left a post for you down below. Search 'Iraq'
-Sky-
Posted By: raddave @ 07/27/2008 2:33:21 PM
How far down? As you know this blog has gotten VERY long and I am having problems finding it.
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Posted By: raddave @ 07/27/2008 2:57:13 PM
I still haven't found it, could you repost it?
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/27/2008 3:42:44 PM
"Iraq" was a poor search choice... only a zillion entries! Anyway, this is one of your previous posts.... I know you've spent time in Europe, and am interested in your thoughts.
-Sky
Comment: ALL of the major players in this election has had supporters. You just do not like it that your man McCain cannot inspire anyone.
Yes, Eastern Europe is wise. The majority of Eastern Europe feel that the current leadership are a bunch of bullies, idiots and cowboys.
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/27/2008 09:53:15
Comment: Rad, I agree Bush is a Cowboy. However, do you think the Europeans would have felt differently if he would not have invaded Iraq? Or, even Afghanistan?-
Posted By: raddave @ 07/27/2008 4:42:20 PM
Thanks. I don't think the invasion of Afghanistan hurt Bush's popularity in Europe. Iraq is the big issue. They felt that Bush had a tremendous opportunity to unite the world against terrorism and bliew it by going into Iraq. They are not happy because Bush pulled all of our troops out of Bosnia, leaving the E.U. to deal with that mess. They feel that why should Europe commit more troops to Afghanistan if the U.S. isn't willing to.
When I was referring to eastern europe, I was talking specifically about Bulgaria. Because my wife is Bulgarian, I have had an opportunity to talk to quite a few Bulgarians about the issues. As you may know, Bulgaria sent troops to Iraq, which was very unpopular in Bulgaria, which was one factor to the Bulgarian government in power at the time to lose the next election. They feel that Bush has broken the promises he made to the Bulgarian government about building permanant bases in Bulgaria and help modernize their armed forces, which he hasn't done. The feel that the war in Iraq has destabilized the Middle East, causing the rise in oil prices.
There are other issues that makes Bulgarians not feel to happy about Bush. They did not like it when Bush recognized Kosovo as an independant country because they feel that this destabelized the Balkans. Of course most Western Europe did this as well.-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/27/2008 10:28:23 PM
Raddave,
Thanks for your response. Let me share some thoughts with you.
Bear with me, as this is long???.
While I was not in Europe during 9/11, I of course remember the solidarity between them and we in the states. I differ with some Americans (and probably the rest of the world) however regarding Iraq, which can be seen as the root to most of our political problems.
IMO, Saddam Hussein was a thug and a colossal, third world fool that needed to go. We all know he was one of the world???s worst leaders. He gassed his own countrymen, including children, and he invaded a sovereign nation without cause. I cannot imagine what it would be like to be forced to my knees; my tongue yanked out with a pair of pliers, cut off, and then be left to die in the street. All for having a different opinion.
Hussein could have curtailed all this by saying: OK gang, here???s what???s left of my weapons! Of course, he chose not to. And with 17 UN resolutions and 12 years later, he was still firing shots over UN (not US) inspector???s heads. (This is the same Hussein that said the Middle East would be his). Additionally, he held daily drills with his men in full chemical dress gear for the entire world to see. This was of course to dissuade the US from invading, but also Iran, obviously a major threat to him at that time.
Looking to the future for Iraq was bleak, as Saddam???s idiot sons, Umday and Upidstay, appeared to be even more dangerous than himself. Add to that the confirmation of weapons that he had from just about every nation out there (including China and Russia), and invasion was all but inevitable.
Could Hussein have been contained? Yes, to a degree. But the problem was compounded, as the UN had become corrupt under him. It became so wide speread, that even Koffee Anan???s (Secretary of the UN) own son had been implicated in the oil for food scandal/bribery. How long was this to go on? Wasn???t 12 years enough? Apparently not for the Euros.
Bush made massive errors, however. He failed to see that insurgent terrorism would rear its ugly head, and he appointed Rummy to oversee the war effort. Both mistakes had drastic results, as it prolonged the war much longer than necessary.
IMO, the troop surge, while I applaud its results, could have come four years earlier. It has been effective, but Iraq could be so much further ahead than it is today. (Though I???ll take what we have!!!)
In the end, IMO, overwhelming force is the only thing that insurgents understand. They cannot be reasoned with. Why?
Because terrorists do not want a solution. They want to be right.
In the end, America seems to lose, no matter what we do.
I guess my real question is, what would Obama do in the same situation?
-Sky-
Posted By: raddave @ 07/28/2008 1:09:56 PM
I also was not in Europe when 9/11 happened. I did have alot of friends still living there, who told me how the feelings of unity with America were massive there. I was even interviewed by a Dutch newspaper right after 9/11 because a friend of min worked for them.
Yes, i agree that Iraq is the biggest difference that Europe has had with America.
Yes, Saddam was a BRUTAL dictator, who murdered countless numbers of his countrymen. But, there are many brutal dictators all over the world, what made Saddam any worse than them? Saddam did invade Kuwait, but to say Kuwait was totally innocent is not true either. During the 8 year war between Iran and Iran, Kuwait largely financed the Iraqis, with about 65 billion dollars. In 1990 Kuwait increased its oil production by 40% in order to keep oil prices low, thereby hurting Iraqs means of repaying this debt. Also, it was later determined that Kuwait was indeed "slant drilling" into the oil field around Basra. Did this give Saddam Justification to attack a soverign nation? NO.
As for the U.N. resolutions. It is debatable whether Iraq had defied these resolutions, since the first two resolutions were the ones that called for Iraq to stop its nuclear program and to destroy its Chemical and Biological weapons. The other 15 resolutions were demanding that Iraq comply with the first two. The IAEA had confirmed in 1993 that Iraq had halted its nuclear research and was in control of all of Iraq's nuclear material.
As for the chem and bio weapons, well it gets a little murkier because Iraq did play games with the weapons inspectors, but as history shows Iraq had destoyed its chem and bio stockpiles. In March 2003, Hanz Blix reported to the U.N. security council that Iraq had been cooperative with weapons inspectors and he believed that it would be only a matter of a few months for them to determine If Iraq had complied with the U.N. resolutions. IMO President Bush felt that if he had waited longer then it would be determined that Iraq had complied with the U.N. resolutions and he would have no justification for invasion. After all, we invaded Iraq to get rid of the WMDs, not because Saddam was an evil man.
In spite of what the Bush administration would like us to believe, the majority of the insurgents in Iraq were not foreign terrorists going to Iraq to kill Americans, but were in fact Iraqis who were fighting the occupation of their country. Many insugents were part of the Iraqi Army that we disbanded in 2003, effectively putting 500,000 trained soldiers out of a job. Would you be reasonable if a foreign country invaded the U.S. and occupied it? I wouldn't be.-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 2:44:01 PM
I agree that we can't eliminate every ruthless dictator, however we had no problem going into the former Yugoslavia, and for less reasons (humanitarian) than we had for going into Iraq. We had no exit strategy... I believe we are still there.
Regarding Iraq, Saddam had made a mockery of the United Nations, even to the point of corrupting UN officials. Passing any new resolutions, regardless of what they contained, seemed pointless after a period of time. In hindsight, the invasion was unnecessary, and getting out of Iraq on a positive basis will be difficult at best. It seems that your points however, would have been reasonably clear to other nations at the time, and the invasion would not had drawn support by so many nations. (Especially Russia) Also, I'm not sure about Saddam's army being upset of being out of a job. Most of them were ill equipped (many had only partial uniforms). In the Gulf War, I remember large numbers of them throwing up their hands in surrender, many looking like they were being rescued!
Of course I would be upset if we in America were invaded and occupied. My freedom is equal to the value of my life. However, if I lived under Saddam, I may very well have welcomed his removal, as many of Iraqi citizens have said.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!-
Posted By: raddave @ 07/28/2008 3:50:31 PM
You cannot compare the former Yugoslavia to Iraq, because we did not have to invade that country. We sent in troops only after a cease-fire had been implemented. As of 2004 we do not have any combat forces in Bosnia and we only have a little over 1,000 troops in Kosovo. BTW I do not feel we should have gotten involved in Kosovo, because unlike Bosnia, Kosovo was a part of Serbia.
Russia was not supportive of our invasion of Iraq. Russia in fact threatened to veto the U.N. resolution to invade Iraq in Feb, 2003. They didn't have to because the resolution was defeated.
I do agree with you on the fact that most Iraqis were grateful to have Saddam removed, but they did not want the U.S. to become an occupation force in their country.-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 5:31:00 PM
You are correct, I misspoke on Russia... (actually, that was a test... you passed!) lol
Some have tolerated us, and I agree, they do want us out of there. However, it would have been tough to pry Saddam from Iraq without some form of occupation until they achieved some form of stabilization.
Hopefully soon the Iraqi gov. and army will be capable of taking over. I'm all for tossing them the keys as quick as we can.-
Posted By: raddave @ 07/28/2008 5:55:54 PM
Now if you had said Czechoslavakia supported the invasion, then i would have to question your mental stability. Just kidding.
I read that you have a family member currently in Iraq and that he or she flies BlackHawks. I can tell you that he or she is very brave indeed. Having taken only a couple of trips in a BlackHawk accross Baghdad. I can tell you that it is a very unerving experience. I couldn't imagine doing it on a daily basis.-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/29/2008 10:40:34 AM
Raddave, you are very brave as well. A bit late in coming, but thank you for your service.
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 7:16:43 PM
Thanks for your comments. I've been holding my breath for five years! I do not know how he does day in-day out either. Rank-wise, he's on up there, so he has a few comforts that help; his own place, that kind of thing. He works 7 days a week most of the time. He tells me he's OK with that as it helps pass the time, and there's not a mountain of stuff to do in off time anyway. He's home in August, for good!
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 5:41:54 PM
You are correct, I misspoke on Russia... (actually, that was a test... you passed!) lol
Some have tolerated us, and I agree, they do want us out of there. However, it would have been tough to pry Saddam from Iraq without some form of occupation until they achieved some form of stabilization.
Hopefully soon the Iraqi gov. and army will be capable of taking over. I'm all for tossing them the keys as quick as we can.
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 6:52:47 AM
Excellent comment, sky. Bon jour. Comment vas tu cette belle mattine?
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 9:47:15 AM
Pia Z - I am fine on this beautiful morning! (I think that's what you asked, if so, thank you for asking!) And thanks for your comment. Normally, I don't get that involved post-wise, but felt it appropriate as the Iraq war always seems to be the big elephant in the room. I hate this war, and truly wish it had not happened. I come from a military family, most of whom were/are pilots. Currently, one is serving his third tour in Iraq flying the Black Hawk. He was going to retire from the military, but has changed his mind because they will just keep sending him back. He's getting out when he comes home this month and will start flying commercially. I don't blame him... I'd do the same thing.
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 10:11:26 AM
Ciao miele! I saw that post and commented on it on this page down below.
Yes, you got it. I asked you how you are doing on this beautiful day.
I agree with you on the Iraq war. I hate it even though I did support it at first. It has become a tragedy.
Your family members- pilots- Air Force- very impressive. Thank you for sharing that.
Cielo, I know you like A. Bocelli music. I do too. I also like Italy's new darling, Patrizio Buanne. I recently learned of him. Do you know of him? Youtube, Patrizio Buanne- Il Mondo. Go play it. It's a stunning song. Io ti mando questa cansone. Enjoy..
Catch ya later, mio miele....-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 10:56:11 AM
Pia Z - Thank you for your comments, they are appreciated. You are so very thoughtful. I hope we can somehow find our way out of it in a positive way. And thank you for your prayers....
I have not heard Patrizio yet, but I will look him up. Thanks!
See you here later on today.... "mio miele" = caldo fuzzies! ; )-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 2:10:59 PM
Sky, you are very welcomed.
Warm fuzzies are good.
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 10:17:03 AM
Sky, I will pray for your family member pilot who is serving in Iraq to come back home soon safe and sound. I thank him for his service and for his courage.
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Posted By: Omaar @ 07/29/2008 8:20:31 AM
Liberal-Conservative....
The Biggest Damn Political Fraud ever played on a Bunch of Easy Manipulated FOOLS....
There is No True Liberal or Conservative, they are just Labels.
Most People are Independent Moderates or simply Moderates when it comes to Politics.
The CFR: The Council On Foreign Relations, is Created, Controled and Commandeered by Mr. David Rockefeller....
The True King of the USA and other Elites Control who will become the Next President of the USA.
They Play You Fools like a Violin or Cello and you think you KNOW POLITICS.......Puh-Lease
Our Opinions and Votes Cannot and Will Not Determine or Influence who will be President, David Rockefeller and the CFR allows to feel like were a Part of the Election Process, when we Really are NOT !!!
PS: BOTH CURRENT AND ALL PAST CANDIDATES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE POLITICAL ISLE, WHO RAN FOR THE PRESIDENCY, ARE MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS..
MCCAIN AND OBAMA ARE BOTH MEMBERS AS WERE BILL & HILLARY CLINTON....
RON PAUL WAS THE ONLY.... NON CFR MEMBER...
AND RON PAUL IS A MEMBER OF THE...
MISES SOCIETY
DAVID ROCKEFELLER CONTROLS (THE FED, CHASE MANHATTAN, STANDARD OIL CORP. BEAR & STEARNS AND ALL OF YOUR MASS MEDIA TV NETWORKS)
BYE BYE, YOU SUCKERS....
ITS DAVID ROCKEFELLERS PARTY AND NONE OF US ARE INVITED, NOR WANTED.
LIBERAL-CONSERVATIVE WHAT A JOKE, WHAT A RIOT...
HAHAHAHAHA...
RESEARCH...YOU SUCKERS
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/29/2008 5:04:47 AM
Debate on oil speculators hits new pitch
By Chris Flood
Published: July 25 2008 Financial Times.com
Oil prices continued their correction this week as the debate about the influence of speculators in energy markets reached a new pitch.
The US Senate yesterday failed to agree on proposals to limit excessive speculation in energy markets and, with oil prices becoming a huge political issue in a presidential election year, attention turns to the House of Representatives, which will debate the issue next week.
But with US lawmakers about to break for summer holidays, any change to regulations governing oil trading appears unlikely before September at the earliest.
Nymex September West Texas Intermediate sank $2.99 to a session low of $122.50 a barrel on Friday, down 5 per cent this week.
ICE September Brent lost $3.05 to a session low of $123.39 a barrel on Friday, off 5.9 per cent this week. Hurricane Dolly caused minimal disruption to production in the Gulf of Mexico and the ending of that threat contributed to selling pressure this week.
The correction for oil prices has lasted two weeks with Brent down 16.3 per cent since hitting a record $147.50 on July 11 while WTI has sunk 16.8 per cent since reaching an all-time high of $147.27 on the same day.
???We would still see any price below $120 as representing a fairly strong buy signal,??? said analysts at Barclays Capital. ???Crude oil stocks remain low globally while the projected path of incremental demand and supply suggests virtually no inventory build over the course of the current quarter.???
US natural gas prices also fell sharply this week with Nymex September Henry Hub down 12.4 per cent to $9.262 per million British thermal units. US coal prices have fallen, providing an attractively priced alternative to natural gas to some US power plant operators.
The correction in oil prices has weighed heavily across agricultural commodities, base metals and gold. Renewed fears about the health of the global financial system and the outlook for economic growth has prompted many hedge funds and short-term momentum players to cut back on their commodities exposures.
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/29/2008 4:52:25 AM
Senate moves closer to energy vote deal By J. Taylor Rushing The Hill
Posted: 07/28/08 03:58 PM [ET]
The Senate on Monday inched toward a potential breakthrough on stalled energy legislation, as Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) said Republicans could offer four amendments, including a vote on offshore oil drilling.
Speaking on the floor, Reid proposed that Democrats and Republicans each would have four amendments, which could be second-degree measures and would be subject to 60-vote thresholds.
Such an offer could break the legislative logjam that has kept the Senate stuck on the energy bill. Democrats failed to reach cloture last week on their proposal to crack down on speculation in the oil futures market, and Republicans are refusing to allow the chamber to move on to other topics before the August recess.
Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said Reid???s proposal was ???significant.??? He asked for time to confer with GOP senators.
???This is a significant step in the direction I had hoped we might take,??? McConnell said. ???I???m very encouraged by this development.???
Just an hour earlier, in a conference call with reporters, McConnell strongly suggested that GOP senators would hold firm against any effort to pass anything besides the energy bill.
???Right now the No. 1 subject in the country is the price of gas at the pump,??? McConnell said at the outset of the Senate???s last week of work before the August recess. ???We think we ought to do something about that and then move on to other subjects.???
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Posted By: Davole @ 07/29/2008 4:40:35 AM
Groups to pray for lower prices at gas stations
Breitbart.com Jul 28 03:41 PM US/Eastern
ST. LOUIS (AP) - Two prayer services will be held at St. Louis gas stations to thank God for lower fuel prices and to ask that they continue to drop. Darrell Alexander, Midwest co-chair of the Pray at the Pump movement, says prayer gatherings will be held Monday afternoon and evening at a Mobil station west of downtown St. Louis.
Participants say they plan to buy gas, pray and then sing "We Shall Overcome" with a new verse, "We'll have lower gas prices."
An activist from the Washington D.C. area, Rocky Twyman, started the effort, saying if politicians couldn't lower gas prices, it was time to ask God to intervene.
The group thinks the prayer is helping, saying prices are starting to fall below $4 a gallon.
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Posted By: Omaar @ 07/27/2008 9:41:26 PM
HolyRoller: "Hussein Obama is a Closeted Homo"....
There you have it People...
"Un-Holy Roller" is finally coming out of his Closet or his Kitchen and Freely Admiting that he Wants to Bed Down.. Barack Obama !!!
The Un-Holy Roller wants to Lay Down with Barack Obama !!
The "Un-Holy Roller" is making a Desperate Plea for some of that ..
Hot Barack Obama Lovin...
Make it easy on Yourself "Un-Holy Roller" all you have to do is visit Obama's Website or Google his Pictures, maybe that will bring You Some Comfort or Solace, maybe it will get you through the Day and Night ?
You Country CowBoys are something Else, fighting that inner Fever, it must be hell, being ....YOU
Well, at least, you've made the 1st steps in Coming out of Your Kitchen, Er Um...Coming out of that Closet or Farm that you're on....
Well, True Admissions are 1st step towards Freeing Yourself from those Sexually Repressed Feelings, that you have for Barack Obama...
At least thats what the Sociologist and Psychiatrist say !!!
Have a Great Day...you Country CowBoy...You
The Un-Holy Roller, wants to Bed down Barack Obama...There you have it Folks !!-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/27/2008 10:34:24 PM
OMG. Omaar. I doubt that.
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Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 12:00:53 AM
Pia Z... Thank you for clearing that up.
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 7:01:44 AM
Good morning and you're welcomed. How are you, sky? Tutto bene? Btw, I realized I never did apologize for my rudeness to you last week regarding one of Omaar's post. Do you remember the incident, sky? I apologize now and also for not doing so before.
Ok, parliamo dopo bellissimo uomo di occhi azzuri. Che colore sono vostri capelli? Io sono catasgne. Dark brown.-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 10:19:05 AM
Pia Z - Amo il tuo complimenti! You are so very nice!
Thank you for your thoughts, but there is no need to apologize. When I think back on some of my own posts, I actually cringe. Sometimes people here shove each other around, me included! I always find out though that once I get to know them, most people are decent, and find we can make our point without slamming each other around! It's tough, sometimes certain individuals can get under my skin in a heartbeat, and I retaliate without thinking. At the end of the day, I try to remember that most of us are passionate and spirited, and wouldn't be here if we didn't love our country!
E il mio colore dei capelli? Auburn.-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 10:29:07 AM
Sky, what candid and thoughtful comments, thank you. I must say thought that I have never seen any comments from you that would make me and anyone lese here cringe. I have posted 'cringe' comments and then went back and retracted and apologized. I'm a coward.
Thanks for saying I'm nice. I try. You are too. Molto gentile.
Auburn is very nice..........especialmente con l'occhi celesti.(blue)-
Posted By: Skypoint @ 07/28/2008 12:15:59 PM
Pia Z - I got out of hand with one gal here when I first came to the site. She was a toughie.... I wish I hadn't as I've not seen her here in some time and I'd like to acknowledge her. I wasn't the only one tho.... she went at it with a lot of us.
Lol... You are NOT a coward! I see you as completely opposite! Thoughtful, kind, very intelligent, complimentary, and of course, molto dolce!
I'm really having trouble getting off this board and getting to work. Mi chiedo perché si tratta? ; )
- Ciel-
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 11:28:23 PM
Sky, I wouldnt worry about the blogger. I'm sure she understood.
Thanks for such kind and generous words, you are indeed miele, very sweet and you are very kind.
Bisou..Bonne nuit. -
Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 6:08:58 PM
Sky, sorry so late in replying, was busy most of the day. You best get to work.
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2008 9:11:26 AM
Sky, correction. 'Castagni.' More mispellings, lol! I told you I need a teacher.
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