Fifteen years after the 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy was enacted for the U.S. military, Congress is prepping to review the law.
Comment: Thank you Democrats!!!!
VOTING FOR A DEMOCRAT IS GAY
DON'T BE GAY
Comment: If a soldier cannot handle what he imagines his co-workers' sex lives to be to such a great extent that he cannot work with them, how will this soldier be expected to appropriately deal with homosexuals he encounters on the job that the military cannot take away, such as foreign troops or civillians. Who cares what goes on inside a soldier's bedroom--if he wants multiple partners, or tied up, or buttsex? Who cares? And why are these people so concerned with his sex life?
Comment: I am retired from the Army. When this issue was first hot in the news several years ago, I was participating in an extended field exercise, which also involved a few female soldiers. Boys and girls were housed in separate large tents. People being what they are, some of the guys "met" with some of the girls at various times. In general, these "meetings" were somewhat subtle. But it caused me to wonder what life would be like in the barracks or in these tents, if openly gay soldiers were sleeping an arm's length apart on bunks or cots. A policy which would allow openly gay soldiers may seem admirable in theory, but would create some practical problems.
Comment: Not really since as a whole gays do not try to makeout with menthe know are heterosexual. Yes there are exceptions, but that is not different than heterosexual men not taking no for an answer from women. It issimply an issue of the military educating its soldiers. If it can teach tem to kill and not run away form gunfire it can easily teach them that gay men and lesbian women are not looking to make out with every same sex person they see. If a soldier is not capable of getting that they are not a very good soldier and have no business being in the military. It is not different that when the military was integrated. Sure there were mindless jerks who could not deal with it. Hopefully most of them were discharged, as they had not business representing the US.
Comment: sharkmam; I'd like to throw you off the back of a Carrier at full speed. I would rather have a gay or lesbian watch my back than your sorry ass.
Comment: When I was in the Army we had our own policy.It was called if they come out of the closet.throw them out the fourth floor window.What a great policy that was.I never had to deal with these immoral pigs with that policy in place.
Comment: Want to see an immoral and treasonous pig, look in the mirror.
Comment: The military is no place for queers. It is demoralizing to the troops. What is next the pandzie parade. Give me a frigging break, it is bad enough that good men have died for their right to parade once a year and act like fools.
Comment: I would argue that the military is no place for mentallly deficient jerks. (Look in the mirror for an example of one). It is no way demoralizing to the troops.
Comment: First of all gay people do not throw their sexuality in your face as much as you do it to them. Every time you kiss in public, hold hands, are out at dinner, the wedding pictures on your desk. Those are all ways you throw your sexuality in their face. So you see one flamer every month or may have once or twice in your life time seen two guys kiss...get over it. Don't ask don't tell needs to be repealed. "Sorry, you've been serving for 30 years and are the best soldier I've ever known but we're going to have to (honorably) discharge you." Tha's stupid. People are also thinking that if don't ask don't tell is taken away that the gays are going to come out of the wood work. I gaurantee you that will not happen. It needs to be taken away because there are many many instances where it's not even the soldier getting caught in the act or saying something about being gay. There are plenty of other ways to be found out. People that are worried about gays in the military are just afraid of things they don't understand. This is not a discussion about faith, whether you have any or not. It is a discussion about what is right. Whether homosexuality be nature or nurture it doesn't matter. They have all the same rights as the rest of us and should be treated as so. Don't ask don't tell and other anti-gay policies are only in place because of an activist legislature that pushed President Clinton to approve it. To use a line that I've seen many conservatives use throughout my life, "This is America and if you don't like it, you can leave." And remember. We are a Democratic Republic. We have majority rule with minority rights so before you go blaming activist judges for legislating from the bench, you first need to inspect the laws. Just because (random number) 80% of americans don't think gays should have the same rights as them doesn't make it true. We should applaude these judges that go against the grain and do what is right.
Comment: The Republican party need to abandon its don't ask don't tell policy regarding gay congressmen. All the Republican homosexuals need to drop their hypocrisy and come out of the closet before they embarrass their party like Mark Foley and the other gay from Idaho.
Comment: And what about the 70% of women in the military that have been raped or sexually harrassed? They even have a new term for the immence suffering that will last all their lives because of it. It's called MST or military sexual trama. There is also rape by rank. All of this is done by their fellow male soldiers. and the military if too short of soldiers and too image conscious too actually try these guys for what they've done. And they will be coming home being taught that they can rape with impunity because they are heros. And you worry about gays. Worry about the straight males if any of them are around your women.
Comment: Afgan_vet, shrinks do not know everything,; they certainly do not explain everything that common sense and real experiences they never had explain. Behavior is not genetic! That is a bogus bill of goods. People have free will, they are not robots.
When 1/4 to 1/3 of all pedophilia is committed by a portion of the population that represents only 2-4%, it is clear how much over-represented this abuse is in the homosexual population. The number of homosexuals who reported being abused themselves as children and adolescents is staggering, a far greater rate than in the hetero population. The damage that is done to many as children greatly contributes to this lifestyle.
Many countless adults change their lifestyle. Look at Anne Heche. It is a behavior, behavior is learned and always a choice. Mankind has free will. Teaching children becomes corrupted when they are abused. Lying to our children is wrong!
Read what one of the most radical homosexual said, in his own words. He no longer lives that lifestyle.
-------------------
When I look back on my life in the gay community, there was always a sense that ???You don???t question your same-sex desires.??? In fact -- it???s rule number one. As soon as you join the club, that???s the first rule. You can go ahead and examine any other thing???s cause, except for homosexuality. It is like a cult.
Of course, as puberty takes place, the body is full of sexual energy, and already, I???m craving the masculinity, because I obviously need to have it in myself. But at the same time, I don???t want it, because I???m afraid of it. All that makes perfect sense-- and yet the real clincher there, when I look back on it, is this fabricated gay identity [offered by society]. I can remember very clearly when I was 14, a friend of mine coming to me and explaining to me that I was gay. And that???s the problem, right there. If we continue to feed this identity to people, they???ll never solve their problems. It???s like a sugar coating. And it???s really insidious, when you realize that in my work as editor of a gay magazine for young people, I was doing this to teenagers! That???s what made me eventually stop. I had been slowly gaining an understanding about my gay identity, yet I just didn???t want to say anything about that yet, at my job. But then, I would read stories about gay-affirming books going into grade schools, and that???s when I realized that this had to stop.
(Michael Glatze, A former gay activist, decided at the age of 13 that he
was gay and eventually founded Young Gay America, a nonprofit
media outreach project. Through a series of incidents,
however, Glatze slowly began to realize that he was not gay at
all but was dealing with fears about his own masculinity. He
has since rejected his gay identity.)
Political correctness is the phobia, which all should reject. We need to stop lying to our children!
Comment: Ric,
As usual you are so far off base it is not even funny.
Like it or not Homosexuality IS genetic. Science has proven that. And yes people have free will, and there is NOTHING wrong with homosexuality so their following thier biological imperative is exercising free will.
The LGBT community is actually closer to 8-10% of the human population. And pediphilia is not related to homosexuality. They are separate issues.
As for Anne Heche, you are confusing bisexuality with homosexuality. And Heche is a very unusual case of a woman who had many additional psychological issues.
Behaviour is NOT always choice. whne it is simply following biological imperative as opposed to artificial man-made ideas and rules (which include ALL religion). It is you who are lying to the children when you leach them your views.
As for Glatze, since he has not been examined by independent psychologists, it is very likley that he is self-delusional. He changed his story AFTER his experiencing a very serious health scare and he had a major change in his RELIGIOUS views. Those views were in conflict with his being homosexual so he "changed".
He is most likely do the exact same thing that the overwheleming majority of homosexuals who "changed" have done. They simply decided that they no longer had the strength or desire to put up with the mindless garbage, hatred and violence that some segments of society subject them to so they either consciously or subconsciously delude themsleves into changing thier biological imperative.
It is also possible that some of them were not truly homosexual, but bisexual and for the same reason stated above, forced themsleves to have greater attraction for the opposite sex then for their own sex.
There is a lot of data that shows that the suicide rates among those who "changed" is higher than the either the heteroseuxal or homsexual community. And it is attributed to the overwhelming trauma that they subject themsleves to by denying their biological sexual orientation and instead they try ot "change", which is imposssible.
Comment: A correction in my 7th paragaraph. The last line should say that they delude themsleves into THINKING that they can cahnge their biological imperative when in fact all they are doing is living a lie. Their homosexuality is still there. They are just denying it and in both the long and short term. harming themselves in the process.
Comment: If being gay is genetic as you suggest, perhaps we need to find the genetic mutation and destroy all fetuses who have it??!!
Comment: Why?
There is nothing wrong with it. It is no different that being blue-eyed or left-handed.
I did not say it is a genetic "mutation", just a genetic variable.
Now if we could find the genetic mutation that causes mindless bigotry and stupidity THAT should be destroyed. Of course that type of mental illness is is not a genetic mutation, IT is a learned choice. In fact it is the only choice in this arguement. The choice to be a mindless bigot.
Comment: The policy Don't Ask, Don't Tell was established to circumvent the law. The law, established during the Nixon administration, set forth the boundaries between tolerance and intolerance. The policy, established during the start of the Clinton years, did not repeal the law. The law stands today as when it was established. So then, whatever becomes of the policy, the law remains intact.
Perhaps then the Senator hopes to turn the debate away from the policy to focus on the law. That not withstanding, it is possible however that Senator Davis is unaware of the law. In either case, the topic of homosexuality in the Arms Forces is not a matter for public debate. The matter before the public is the place homosexuality holds in our society.
Traditionally, homosexuality in America has always been tolerated. Evidence of such tradition echoes in the use of the phrase "as long as they don't bother me." But while 'they' may not bother you, the debate is not about you or how 'they' may or may not 'bother' you. The debate rests in how we, as a civilized society, define homosexuality. If we use public discourse to define homosexuality, as it appears Senator Davis suggests, the debate will scream out for a definitive societal law. However, if we use sound reason, coupled with intellectual honesty, the debate will heed the tradition, and tolerance will prevail.
Comment: After I posted my comments (twice accidentally, I'm sorry to say), I noticed a lot of random and baseless comments regarding homosexuality, especially in morality contexts. So, I wanted to add that during the course of my more than 60 psychotherapy sessions with mental health providers to treat PTSD, anxiety disorders, and depression from my 366-day tour to Afghanistan, I learned a lot from my psychologist. One day during a session, we were making small talk, and we discussed homosexuality in general, in non-specific terms. In doing so, I asked him what the medical community has to say on the homosexuality subject. He told me unequivocally, that there is much research showing that homosexuality is genetic and therefore, many people are preconditioned towards becoming homosexual or heterosexual. Therefore, I think it is very sad to see so many people supporting the old paradigms associated with homosexuality--i.e. it's sacriligious, it's evil, it's sinful, it's perverted, it's revolting, etc. I found the following article interesting. I hope those people who fit the previous paradigms, read the article...and I hope that you have a paradigm shift after reading it: http://www.emaxhealth.com/48/22818.html.
Comment: The "don't ask, don't tell, don't harrass" policy worked very well during my time in the military, 1995-2008. The latter part of that phrase, "don't harrass," became crucial when it went into effect sometime in the late 1990s, because before that, military members and other government employees would openly giggle about the policy, or they would tell crude jokes, etc. At least with the "don't harrass" part of the policy going into effect, people became more discreet in their off-color remarks.
The policy of "don't ask, don't tell, don't harrass" is not bad at all. The problem is on the punitive end of things. Rather than slapping a service member on the wrist, figuratively speaking, and giving them a minor reprimand, or even a long succession of reprimands that result in real punishment--i.e. failure to obey a lawful order; any admittance, or minor appearance of homosexuality, quickly results in non-judicial punishment (NJP) via an Article 15 disciplinary action by the offenders commanding officer.
Sadly, NJP is almost meaningless in the grand military scheme of things, because it does not usually result in anything lower than an "honorable discharge," and no record of why the service member was discharged other than, "for the convenience of the government" is recorder. Of course, the service member receives no military service benefits and no severance pay, but the DD214 with an honorable discharge, in and of itself is PURE GOLD!
An honorable discharged service member is eligible for VA benefits, SSA benefits, burial benefits, etc. Moreover, honorably discharged service members oftentimes are highly sought after for civilian employment, as they possess technical skills, strong self discipline, and exemplary work ethic. So, if a service member desperately wants to get out of the service under honorable conditions, usually all he or she has to do is showcase or admit some sort of affinity for homosexuality.
I saw this happen several times while on active duty, and it was sickening to watch these cowards get away with "murder," so to speak. We all want out of the service at some points in our careers, whether its while we're sitting in a dead-end job, or whether its when we kiss our family members goodbye enroute to the combat zone.
This policy problem is not about "homophobia," it is about those who fail to follow the rules and openly defy policy/law. Discipline and integrity are at the core of military operations. Congress must ensure good order and discipline within its military ranks.
Comment: The "don't ask, don't tell, don't harrass" policy worked very well during my time in the military, 1995-2008. The latter part of that phrase, "don't harrass," became crucial when it went into effect sometime in the late 1990s, because before that, military members and other government employees would openly giggle about the policy, or they would tell crude jokes, etc. At least with the "don't harrass" part of the policy going into effect, people became more discreet in their off-color remarks.
The policy of "don't ask, don't tell, don't harrass" is not bad at all. The problem is on the punitive end of things. Rather than slapping a service member on the wrist, figuratively speaking, and giving them a minor reprimand, or even a long succession of reprimands that result in real punishment--i.e. failure to obey a lawful order; any admittance, or minor appearance of homosexuality, quickly results in non-judicial punishment (NJP) via an Article 15 disciplinary action by the offenders commanding officer.
Sadly, NJP is almost meaningless in the grand military scheme of things, because it does not usually result in anything lower than an "honorable discharge," and no record of why the service member was discharged other than, "for the convenience of the government" is recorder. Of course, the service member receives no military service benefits and no severance pay, but the DD214 with an honorable discharge, in and of itself is PURE GOLD!
An honorable discharged service member is eligible for VA benefits, SSA benefits, burial benefits, etc. Moreover, honorably discharged service members oftentimes are highly sought after for civilian employment, as they possess technical skills, strong self discipline, and exemplary work ethic. So, if a service member desperately wants to get out of the service under honorable conditions, usually all he or she has to do is showcase or admit some sort of affinity for homosexuality.
I saw this happen several times while on active duty, and it was sickening to watch these cowards get away with "murder," so to speak. We all want out of the service at some points in our careers, whether its while we're sitting in a dead-end job, or whether its when we kiss our family members goodbye enroute to the combat zone.
This policy problem is not about "homophobia," it is about those who fail to follow the rules and openly defy policy/law. Discipline and integrity are at the core of military operations. Congress must ensure good order and discipline within its military ranks.
Comment: To Hank the Horrible - Libs only drag Christianity into every arguement when Christians use the Bible as proof of their point in that arguement.
Comment: Believing in the Bible is your civil right, just as not believing in it is mine. And let me point out that the Bible is NOT this country's constitution.
Comment: Envision this on Edward R. Murrow's TV show "See it Now." Up at the battle front. A gay stands up in a foxhole and yells, "Yoo-Hoo, enemy. Don't you dare shoot that nasty old gun at me, you big ol' bully.." And the enemy dies laughing.
Comment: riot! :D
Comment: Oh, dear, Brucie, don't you dare tell that big, handsome, gorgeous sergeant that I lie awake at night just dreaming of getting my hands on his to die for hunkie body. Oh, I'd just be crushed. Do you suppose he would let me hold his big, strong hand when we march?
Comment: Homosexuals should not be aloud to spend time with children and corrupt there minds. Homosexuality is just as wrong as Murder they are both depraved sick crimes against what is natural.
Both these crimes fly in the face of what is normal decient human behavior.
Anyone that supports homosexual activity is a contributor to it.
Homosexuality is wrong.
Its is not diversity it is perverisity
They should be given the mental help they need.
It is not about left or right wing politics its about right and wrong.
Homosexuality is wrong and always will be just because you say its not does not mean its true.
Hate what is bad not the individual only the crime.
Comment: I've often wondered if a critically wounded homophobe soldier were told that the only medic standing between him and eternity was a gay medic would tell that medic to leave him alone and go home, that he didn't belong there. I can only hope that his answer would be yes, because by the homophobe's own professed beliefs, being true to one's convictions is what, in the end, really matters. If one truly believes in idiotic, homophobic convictions, one should be willing to die for them.
Comment: I've often wondered if a critically injured homophobe soldier wounded in combat were told that the only available medic standing between him and eternity was a gay medic, would that wounded soldier tell the medic to go home, that he didn't belong there. I certainly hope that wounded soldier would be true to his professed views and honor his religious convictions and say "yes". After all. by his/her own professed beliefs, being true to your own convictions is what is truly important.
Comment: This nation is not as liberal as some would have us believe. No matter how much they may want to believe it, California is not the bellwether for the nation. Most of us still believe that homosexuality is not an acceptable behavior. As a 24-year military veteran, I can tell you that I would not have wanted openly homosexual people serving in my unit.
Homosexuals seem to think they're the only ones with rights. What about my right not to have homosexuality thrown in my face? Why don't I have that? Sorry, homosexuality is aberrant behavior that should not be allowed to become "OK."
Comment: I feel sorry for you bigots out there. You are so focused on avoiding what faces you in the mirror every morning that you are making everyone around you miserable. I think I recall something in the Bible about keeping one's own house clean, throwing the first stone and all that...there are numerous references to minding your own freaking business in the Bible as well. But aside from that Scripture lesson, there is something else to consider: in my vast experience of people, I have NEVER met a homophobe who was not him/herself gay. Sorry, guys, but your true colors are showing every time you gay-bash.
Comment: Let me tell you about when I spent 10 month on an aircraft carrier in the Middle East: In my 'room,' we had about 50 women, of which two were lesbians - girlfriends at that, who happened to be in bunks one on top of the other. Now, any of you ignorant people out there tell me this never created an issue?! I think you need to go out in the real world and watch how differently gay people act compared to strait people. Strait people don't need to make a point of making sure everybody else know they are straight. We don't act or dress out extra to showcase our sexuality. It seems as though the ones who were/are gay feel the need to try to push the limit as much as they can and get away with it. THAT IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR, and strait people don't do it. If you want to be gay, fine, go outside and do it where we aren't all forced to watch you be gay. And don't you dare try to push it on anybody else. Maybe if all you faggots out there acted normal and didn't try to showcase it, the rest of us wouldn't have as big of a problem with it. Till you can learn to just shut your mouth and act normal, no, none of you should be in a positon so respectable and honorable as serving in the United States Military.
Comment: THE GAYING OF AMERICA. YOU CANT WATCH ABC NBC OR CBS WITHOUT SEEING GAY RELATIONSHIPS. NOW I MUST HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH MY CHILDREN PREMATURELY. IT IS SAD THAT OUR FOCUS IS AGAINST THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY IN AMERICA IS UNDER ATTACK, 1ST IT WAS OUT OF THE CLOSET, THEN DONT ASK DONT TELL , NOW ITS ALL OVER PRIME TIME TV. THE DECLINE OF A GREAT SOCIETY. WHATS NEXT BEASTIALITY?
Comment: Gays have as real and strong falilies as heterosexuals do. My homosedual and lesbina friends families are just as strong, caring and lvoing as my heterosexual family.
Comment: THE GAYING OF AMERICA. YOU CANT WATCH ABC NBC OR CBS WITHOUT SEEING GAY RELATIONSHIPS. NOW I MUST HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH MY CHILDREN PREMATURELY. IT IS SAD THAT OUR FOCUS IS AGAINST THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY IN AMERICA IS UNDER ATTACK, 1ST IT WAS OUT OF THE CLOSET, THEN DONT ASK DONT TELL , NOW ITS ALL OVER PRIME TIME TV. THE DECLINE OF A GREAT SOCIETY. WHATS NEXT BEASTIALITY?
Comment: STONE THE HOMOS
Comment: This country started on is long route to hell the moment the took prayer out of schools, the pledge. Now the media is telling us that being gay is ok and it should be acceptable enough to pass laws protecting them and authorizing same-sex marriage. Prayer is the only way this country is going to reclaim its rightful position in the world..our values are disrespected world wide because we allow things we know are clearly and morally wrong exist in our society. Lord help us!!
Comment: Actually the US is viewed with contempt worldwide because we allow religious people to try to force their beliefs on the rest of the world, and because we allow soe laws to be based on religoius doctrine.
Comment: As an American who has served my country...I really don't give a crap what the rest of the world thinks...this is a problem in an of itself...the rest of the world can go take a hike...I am only concerned about what is BEST for THIS country....and part of that is defending this country against all enemies....foreign and domestic. If you support gays in the military...then you defend the destruction of the good order and discipline which is a bedrock of the military. The military does not need these distractions. So all you queers...and those who support them...go find a rock to hide under...because the majority SHOULD rule...and the majority should put it's collective "foot" down and stamp out this repulsive behavior.
Comment: I served in the Army for several years as officer in a combat unit, was decorated three times, am now an Orthodox Rabbi and university professor in Jewish studies, believe in God and the Torah. But as a loyal and patriotic US citizen and I am convinced that the prohibition againt gays in the military is ill advised and foolish. It harms our readiness and the "unit morale" argument is invalid. I personally knew that two of my men (not under my command at the same time) we gay. But I also knew that they were good and brave soldiers. Several other members of my unit knew they were gay as well. No one cared. And this was before "don't ask don't tell". At one point someone (a "born-again" higher ranking officer in another battalion) asked me if I knew of any gay soldiers. I said no. I was not going to help some bigot do a witch hunt. It was irrelevant to our job, and to our men.
Comment: Oh, and before you spout off about violating orders and failure to obey a superior officer. The Nuremburg trials proved that some orders are wrong.
I fought in order to protect the rights of ALL people, not just the ones who i agree with or the ones who I think are obeying G-d's laws. THAT is called obeying the oath I took as an officer to:
"that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same".
When a law or order is in violation of the Constitution, it must be disobeyed.
Comment: What is best for this country is getting rid of mindless bigotry.
Sorry John, but I have met well over a hundred past and present military personnel (enlisted and officers, including very high ranking ones). Over 90% are of the opinion that having gays in the military is not a problem once the rank-and file are trained out of their idiotic bigotry.
I would remind you that the majority of the military (and the country) opposed integrating the military. They used the same bullsh*t arguments that you are using now. Theywere wrong then and wrong now. Ask Colin Powell about how distracting and disruptive integrating the military was. It was an idiotic argument then and is an idiotic argument now.
And what the rest of the world thinks about the US is very much an imporatant issue, because without international cooperation we are nothing and can do nothing. The attitude you put forth is the attitude of an idiot. It is the head in the sand attitude that almost allowed the Germans to win WWi and WWII. Foolishness and stupidity.
Comment: Actually I have met over 100 who currently serve and over 200 who served in the past (for a total of over 300). I was writing so fast, (and talking to my girlfriend on the phone at the same time) that I screwd up my post and did not proofread it before I posted.
Comment: The bible is unequivocal in its condemnation of homosexual behavior. To claim otherwise is a lie. Behavior is always a choice or else a crime. Stop lying to our children to justify your lifestyle. Read the book of Matthew where Jesus defines marriage Ch 19:4-5; where Jesus restates some of the 10 commandments 19:18-19. Marriage is a man and woman, PERIOD. To claim it was ever to be same sex is a lie and a dishonor to one's parents. Read Matthew 15:4 where Jesus defended the death penalty, where not honoring a mother and father deserves death. AIDS did not exist in this country before it was started in the homosexual community, and not for over a year and a half spread among themselves, before they spread it to the rest of this population. Behavior is a choice, you were given free will. To claim otherwise is a lie. But the lies that attractions alone justify behavior continue. They do not and will never. Children are being lied to but the pushers of same-sex behavior do not care about children; they only use them to justify their behavior choices. But pushers never care about children. Matthew 18:6 warns those who use and lie to children. STOP LYING TO OUR CHILDREN!!!
Comment: So what. It is equally arguable that god and the bible are both lies.
Comment: We don't need the policy. We have the UCMJ! Assault is assault sexual or other wise. These individuals should be allowed in the Military no matter the sexul preference. If they get out of line they should be treated and punished the same as a heterosexual soldier is if the assault the opposite sex.
Comment: Johnwestpointer, I accept the Bible as God's word as much as you do, but I think it needs to be pointed out to the general public that of the 8 Bible verses used to claim that homosexuality is always wrong in God's eyes, none of the eight can be interpreted as an outright condemnation of all homosexuality. Several of them don't even refer unambiguously to homosexuality; the ones in the Old Testament are included in a list of regulations that also disallow the eating of shellfish, which most Christians don't seem to find abominable, and of the ones in the New Testament that seem clearly to refer to homosexual behavior, the context of the discussion in the particular book of the New Testament makes it very questionable to conclude that God condemns homosexuality. This isn't the forum to do Bible interpretation vs. Bible interpretation at forty paces, but I just think that Christians who know better shouldn't allow other Chrsitians to claim that the Bible "clearly" abhors all homosexuality in people. That's just inaccurate.
Comment: Believing in the Bible is your civil right, just as not believing in it is mine. And may I point out, the Bible is NOT this country's constitution.
Comment: As you can see by my Profile name, I have served my country in the US Army. I agree with yesyoucan2008 that a VAST majority of military personnel would rather NOT have an openly gay or lesbian soldier in their unit. If I were still on active duty, I would courtmartial any soldier that was openly gay. It DOES bring down unit morale and is NOT conducive to good order and discipline. An effective fighting force does not need the distraction caused by this type of behavior.
Comment: To Johnwestpointer: I'm a Christian too and accept the same Bible you do, but do not accept that any passage of the eight you will refer to explicitly condemns all forms of homosexual behavior. This isn't the forum to do Bible vs. Bible at 40 paces but other Christians need to stand up and take issue with this absolutely incorrect assertion that so many Christians put forward that the Bible clearly condemns homosexuality. Sit down with someone who knows the Greek and the Hebrew and talk about the contexts which give those verses their meaning, and you won't be able to make this misguided claim.
Comment: I am also a Christian. One point brought up in college was all 11 decipals wrote gospels. 1/2 of them got books added to the bible. Why is it the catholic church disqualified the writtings from those who lived with and personally knew Jesus? One set of books written by Judas Escariot was probably the closest thing to a daily diary as the others wrote about Jesus 20 and 30 years after the crusifiction. Since Judas committed suicide before Jesus was put on the cross, its likely to have the most accurate accounting about Jesus. In studying the gospels that the catholic church decided NOT to include in the bible, you might find the reason why rather quickly. Jesus was far more accepting and forgiving of sinners then the church wants you to know about. There are accounts of Jesus raising a gay man's lover from the dead and there are writtings about how Jesus accepted and helped whores and homosexuals all through the books that were not included in the new testiment. It seems actually Jesus was far more accepting and forgiving of all sins in general and not just sexuality based. So dont let these under educated people fool you, Jesus did not comdemn or put down homosexuality. In fact seeing that 30 roman emperors actually married other men and gay marriage was fully legal and accepted in Greek, Roman and Egyptian cultures it seems gay marriage actually has a 3,000 year tradition - this was until Saint Augustine came in with ideas contrary to Jesus's teachings such as introducing celebacy for nuns and priests and criminalizing homosexuality. There are actual passages that DID get into the bible such as Jesus healing the Roman Soldier's slave, back in roman days, a slave's primary job was being a sex slave. Male slaves were forced into homosexuality 95% of the time, roman soldiers in Judeah brought their homosexual brothels with them. The openly gay roman's brought this culture and it was all around Jesus but we dont find anything but mistranslations which could be mistaken for condemnation of homosexuals. The fact is people are working very hard to come in Jesus's name but they corrupt the message he wanted to give which was forgiveness of all sins.
Comment: I am currently serving in the Army for over 22 years, and frankly I am opposed to the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell. 75% percent of America may think it would be okay, but survey the men and women in uniform. I bet the numbers go down (no pun intended). It is about working in a comfortable environment along side fellow Soldiers. Most gay personnel in the service keep their personal feelings and lifestyles separate from work. If you were to openly expose them to a majority of straight men for example, you might have some hostile working situations. I think Obama's direct support on this issue is one of the few things he is wrong on. I may be wrong on this but I am on the inside looking out.
Comment: Why do people insist on teaching children that same-sex behavior is supposedly equal to male/female behavior? Because their two-faced hypocrites, pushing on the children of others what they would never ever choose, out of nothing more than self-centered gratification and certainly total moral confusion. Behavior is always a choice or else it's a crime. Children do not understand sexual issues as infants but learn them as they grow, from the rest of us who supposedly have their best interests at heart. right. If it does not matter for a man attracted to another man to serve in the army, then you two-faced pushers must acknowledge it does not matter for men and women to share a shower in the army. HYPOCRITES!!! Stop lying to our children. They deserve a mother and father, not your political correct lying to justify your morally confused attempt to feel good about pushing your concept of so-called social conscience justice. Stop lying to our children!!
Comment: My Bible teaches me that homosexuality is an abomination before God. You queers can argue all day long about how "right" it is, but you won't be able to argue before your Maker on judgement day! Conservatives, if you don't wake up, the liberal agenda is going to be pushed down your throat (pun intended) and once a precident is established, it will be very difficult to overcome. Take the time to VOTE, and vote your conscious, because the minority will get their way if we don't act NOW!
Comment: Your bible is of no importance. It is just a man-made book of no rela validitiy and of no importance to US law.
Since there is no god the is no abomination.
And I would remind you that the majority was opposed to intergrating the military and opposed to equal rights for blacks. So much for what a mindless majority wants. It is not relevant to US law as opposed to EQUAL rights. The tyranny of the majority is not to be the basis for US law..
Comment: dawayne
I agree with you. I don't care if the military lets gays in or not. What I'm saying is this. In the military there is a close net of friendship that only people in the military knows. If you are in a fire fight you have to trust the man on your left and right. What happens if the man next to you is gay and the other man next to him dislikes gays(you cant change everybodys mind) that not only puts these two men in trouble but the whole team. I'm saying let the military have gays but don't tell everyone. Every comment has said let the military be open like the rest of the population but guess what we can't because we have a job to do. And that is to protect this country from our enemies. Now if I worked in an office or anything normal population does I say great be open. But we dont we shoot people and kill people so you can have this comments. like I said if you have never been in the military you have no right to comment. If you want I'm going back to Iraq in 4-5 months you are happy to come along and see what we go through.
Comment: everyone has the right to speak on the issue. it's unfortunate the department of defense had forfited its voice. but bc i enlisted into the navy (AA), i suppose i have more of a right to speak, according to some. it is unfortunate that our proudly distinguished military personal (or atleast some) feel as though differences cannot be set aside to accomplish a mission. it has been done, and is done everyday worldwide.
Comment: to military man iraq: your comments are intelligent and fair, but how is this different from someone who is racist and is in a bunker with an african-american?? or an anti-semite with a jewish soldier?? there are always going to be people who have trust issues because of their personal views, but that can't be a justification for banning gays anymore than it can for banning blacks.
Comment: I think we need to have a policy where we allow gays, but maybe allow for increased privacy. We need to do away with the big showers where 50 naked men are showering at the same time. I am not sure segregating gays from straights will be good because a houseful of horny young gay soldiers who knows everyone else in the place is gay too wont erupt into massive orgies. I dont know, other countries have more experience with allowing gays to serve in military, how do they deal with this? I do think the generations have changed and most straight young people these days have a high degree of respect for gays that past generations didnt have. How do we deal with men and women soldiers that want to have sex now? Rules should be in place that are comparable with gay men and women as the question about what if 2 gay soldiers bunking next to each other want to have a sexual relationship and how does it effect others around them? As it is now, we all read that 65,000 gays are estimated to be in the military now, so the gays are already there and serving. Seems we need to modernize our thinking and deal with it.
Comment: dude, u r soo right!
Comment: I have a problem with people who think they know what I want. i.e. Our politicians Instead of beginning discussion in Washington DC why not begin discussions on a military base and ask those who will have to deal with the situation created how they fell about it. Its all fair and good to point out the 12,000 openly gay military personnel who were discharged in the last 15 years, but how will the politicians deal with lets say 75,000 non gay military personnel that leave because they feel uncomfortable for whatever reason in the next 15 years. Would our politicians the re-activate the draft to fill our military needs. I doubt that would happen to much backlash from another voting group. This hole issue is once again a case of the squeeky wheel getting the grease, not what is best for this country, and I for one have had enough.
Comment: As long as there was no war and we could fill our quotas it was easy to say "keep the queers out" Now we need more warm bodies to fill our unit rosters. Not so important anymore. When I was in guys used to pretend to be gay to get kicked out. They required them to "proove it". I'm not sure how that was done but I think it involved a physical exam for injuries.
Comment: people who support dadt and discriminatory acts like it need to mature. personally, the military needs to adapt to a higher moral code by making its installations co-ed. our military prides itself on honor and disipline..where is the honor and disipline in needing seperate quarters? are our military personel not dignified enough to understand that our militarys overall function is more important than our own personal/social/political divides? 20 of the 25 nato militarys ( england,canada included) proudly honor thier gay/lesbian soldiers. where are we in the fight? think about it..
Comment: Here a stupid idea why not asked those in the military how they feel. What would Susan Davis say if in the next 15 years after we repel the "don't ask don't tell " policy we lose 75,000 non gay personnel who just don't feel comfortable for whatever reason. I guess we could always re-activate the draft to fill our military needs.
Comment: people who support dadt and discriminatory acts like it need to mature. personally, the military needs to adapt to a higher moral code by making its installations co-ed. our military prides itself on honor and disipline..where is the honor and disipline in needing seperate quarters? are our military personel not dignified enough to understand that our militarys overall function is more important than our own personal/social/political divides? please. think about it.
Comment: this is for michael.taylor @ 07/21/2008 4:58:02 PM
Have you ever been in the military??? My quess is no. If you haven't how do you know what we go through or how (close) we have to be. In cobat is not like watching TV or going to the gym.
Comment: Don't think for a minute there is not a liberal spin to this. I know of numerous soldiers who were discharged because of being openly gay..............the problem is this, all of the ones I know of claimed to be gay, as a way of getting out of serving! I agree with the other comments......What about my rights and my privacy and my modesty?
Comment: If you have never been in the military. In close quarters or in combat. Know anything about it. All of the people making comments have never had to sleep take a shower or had anything to do with gays in the military. I'm not saying gay is right or wrong all I'm saying they don't need to let everyone know. As the old saying goes what you dont wont hurt you knowning this will. And anyone in or been in gay or not knows that.
Comment: I have talked with many many people (well over 300) who currently serve or have served in the past. Almost every one of them has said that they have no problem with gays serving, and oppose the don't ask don't tell. One corporal said, "How come they can openly die, but cannot open be gay?" Also, many of them knew who in thier units were gay or lesbian, and did not care. Some of them even lied to investigators when asked because they felt that the law was illegal and unconstiutional.
As one Marine Captian said "Gays and lesbians have and will contintue to give their lives for thier country and bravely watch the backs of their fellow Marines. That is the ONLY thing that matters. The rest is just bullsh*t."
Comment: I'm not saying gay people should not be in the military. What im saying is if they are open and everybody knows it it is the same as non gay people should be able to use one shower. You are going to say thats stupid but whats the difference??
Comment: This, like the many other tactics of "Gay Friendly" politicians and activists, will not prevail. As a former Naval Petty Officer, it's not "widely" accepted and will not be good for the majority if the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" is repealed. That being said, if you want to serve your country then you will do it by the laws enacted. The last thing we need is for our troops subjected to "openly gay" troops hitting on them and/or weakening our peception among other military powers.
Comment: It will be accepted if the military teaches its trooops to accept it.
You are making an typical foolish assumption that gay troops will "hjit on" non-gay fellow troops. The likleyhood of that happening is not very high.
As for a weakened perception of other military powers, they actually have a weakened perception of us already BECAUSE OF the anti-gay policy. As has been stated before, several of our allies have laready realized how asinine this type of policy is and allow gays to serve.
Comment: Please gay people are in the military now. Don't be fooling yourself that you look so good in the shower that gay military people can't wait to see you in the shower. Straight people look too. If a gay Soldier dies dosen't it mean the same. This law should be overturn so we get on to the business of defending our country with all of our citizens.
Comment: I'm in the military and I don't think it is right. I have been in Iraq 4 times. Most showers are open bays. It is the same as you saying I could take a shower in the girls shower. Think about it. If you like men or women if you think they are cute you are going to look. Is this fair to any straight male or female. Remember we have rights too.
Comment: As a lesbian woman I am grateful for all progress - even if in small steps. This country is making progress in the direction of acceptance more and more as years go by. Thank you to all of those that are stepping up and taking a stance for gay rights. We are people with feelings. It's ashamed that the stereo typical flamboyant in your face gays have ruined the image the rest of us wish to represent. Hopefully the more the educated well spoken and respected gays speak out - the more those words won't fall on deaf ears.
Comment: I was struck by the question concerning public support for allowing gay men and women to serve in the military versus same-sex marriage. While a large majority of Americans are now okay with gay men and women serving openly in the military (around 75%), a small majority (probably around 55%) still opposes same-sex marriage, When asked how to reconcile this, the interviewee surmised, among other things, that it "may be that in this country we greatly value those who are interested in sacrificing for our country." So apparently the approximately 30% of Americans who are okay with gay men and women sacrificing for their country are also okay with those same people being treated as second-class citizens. Talk about hypocrisy.
It is long past time that this country joined its allies and abolished this backward and unnecessary policy.
Comment: This is all interesting talk. Being a retired military person, I really don't care whether gays and lesbians can serve in the military. Bieng a Navy man, I will say it is very difficult. Of couser quarters are seperated between men and women and rightfully so. Does this mean because of the hormonal factor that there will a furhte division? Why do I ask that you woner? Well I can tell you of two seperate instances on my last ship of illegal sexual activities going on with gays. The first involved a female officer and an enlisted., the second three enlsited males. And yes, all four of those are inlcuded in those booted totals. The second incident had to do with the three males fondeling other men in their sleep in their berthing area. So personally, thought "Dont' ask don't tell" may be flawed, its a matter of control. It's difficutl enough keeping straight men and women apart when you have been out to sea for one month or more without pulling into port. If they can all keep their privates in their pants and complete their jobs, the military will be that much strong for it.
Comment: I think Don't Ask Don't Tell is a wonderful thing. I have many gay friends due to my brother being gay and they all love it too. When you have a crazy President trying to get us in a war with every single country that says one thing to us it's a good thing. Pretty much what my gay friends say is that they have no problem serving this country if it's their choice and it's a cause they believe in but not if it's just out of stupidity and falsehoods. They say that had Iraq come down to a draft, the very first thing they would have done was to be out and proud and get kicked out of the military. If anything, we should feel bad for us straight people because we don't have a tool like this one to stop ourselves from being used.
Comment: However, if there ever was a draft again, it would be immediately abolished. HYPOCRITES!
Comment: Thanks for the support and you're probably right. I don't mean to be a jerk. But you sound like an angry gay man. Just an observation.
Comment: If the draft is ever reinstated, I hope the policy of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is still in full force and every gay and lesbian person takes advantage of it. SHOVE IT RIGHT BACK IN THE LAWMAKER"S FACES!
Comment: Bush/Cheney Legacy:
Liars, frauds, advocates of fear, blood-thirsty war mongers, homophobes, hypocrites, mass-murderers. Rest assured, they will have their place in histroy!
Comment: This is all interesting talk. Being a retired military person, I really don't care whether gays and lesbians can serve in the military. Bieng a Navy man, I will say it is very difficult. Of couser quarters are seperated between men and women and rightfully so. Does this mean because of the hormonal factor that there will a furhte division? Why do I ask that you woner? Well I can tell you of two seperate instances on my last ship of illegal sexual activities going on with gays. The first involved a female officer and an enlisted., the second three enlsited males. And yes, all four of those are inlcuded in those booted totals. The second incident had to do with the three males fondeling other men in their sleep in their berthing area. So personally, thought "Dont' ask don't tell" may be flawed, its a matter of control. It's difficutl enough keeping straight men and women apart when you have been out to sea for one month or more without pulling into port. If they can all keep their privates in their pants and complete their jobs, the military will be that much strong for it.
Comment: OMG! Lock them up, put them on some deserted island somewhere.
Get real MC. How many men and women sexually harass each other in every segment of society on a daily basis? It is against the law everywhere, so don't single out the military. They are no different from anyone else. There are good and bad everywhere and someone is always going to participate in deeds or activities that they shouldn't. men and women in the military are HUMAN too!
Comment: MC is correct...when the focus is taken off the job by perverted actions, people can get killed. I had a roommate that I found out was homosexual, and turned him in. This is before DADT, and he was rightfully GONE from the service ASAP! There is NO place for this type of activity in the US Military. Why should a small minority overrule the silent majority. Let's put the gays back in the closet and condemn their vulgar behavior.
Comment: Tony, we all do know who passed the law & who won't change it. See a pattern here? Keeping the status quo, a pattern of any politico trying to hold on. Change will come, has to be done soon though. I just don't think any contemporary politicians will make that change, sadly enough.
Comment: Now we finally agree on something. The policy needs to be abolished!
Comment: The days of Bush's and the republicans maniacal dictatorship is fast approaching. Counting the days until that fool is sent packing back to the cowpaddie pastures of TX with the rest of the shi*!
Comment: Sane in Utah, why do libs ALWAYS have to drag Christianity in to every argument? It gets old. Yep, I'm a Christian, love my Lord & Savior, but I embrace gays & lesbians, as does the congregation @ our church because it's what the Gospel teaches. I gurantee if the many of you leave Christianity out of the argument for once, you may actually have a receptive ear in most of those Christians you so abhor. Talk about hatred, SHEESH!
Comment: Hank:
DO your homework. Every evangelical whack-job is a republican! No one abuses religion and uses God as an excuse for racism, homophobia, bigotry and discrimination more thatn the GOP! and republicans as a whole.
Comment: Tony, have done the homework LONG before many on here & yep, it's true, sad to say. But there's just as many whackjobs hiding in the laft camp as well that see scum like Che Guevarra as a patron saint & his ways as liberating to this very day. Bottom line, whackos are everywhere, we as humans just tend overlook the ones closest to us or our cause/camp. By the way, a lot of these folks aren't the voice for the average Joe, they feel they are, but really ain't. Only problem is the media gives them more than their 15 minutes of show & they lap it up.
Comment: My Bible teaches me that homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God. You can argue all day long, but it won't change that FACT. How will you argue that before God's throne?
Comment: The Bible teaches that homosexuality is an abomination. Think about THAT the next time you want to challenge this. You can argue until you are blue in the face, but you can't argue when you face your maker!
Comment: "including nearly 800 with skills deemed "mission-critical" by the Pentagon: 322 were language experts, and of those 60 were proficient in Arabic."
That line alone should give neo-conservatives pause. And by the way Republicans, this should be an answer to your prayers in your war on gays -- gays willing to be cannon fodder for a country that sees them as 2nd class citizens. You think you'd all be doing "Amens" and "Hallelujiahs" in the aisles for these people to put themselves in harm's way.
Comment: HEAR!!!!!!!!! HEAR!!!!!!!!!!!
One would think that the blood-thirsty, war-mongering, fear-spreading Bush would understand that, but as the last 8 years have proven, Bush and the republicans understand little, if anything at all.
Comment: Sorry for the double post, my computer had a glitch. OOPS!
Comment: Yes Hank, we know who passed the law, and we also know who can and won't put an end to it.
Comment: As the late Distinguished Gentleman from the great state of Arizona, the late Senator Barry Goldwater once said: "You don't have to be straight to shoot straight."
Don't ask/Don't tell has run it's course & we need to progress as a society to get over it, simple as that. But that's not what I'm going to complain about.
My sole complaint is the liberals (especially in academia) blaming Dubya for said policy when it was clearly enacted during Slick Willy Clinton's reign. What a farce!
Here @ UCSB they were considering removing the ROTC program from campus because of the "discriminatory nature of the policy." Funny thing is the military also has a anti-fraternization rule for heterosexuals too.
If the liberal academics REALLY want a change, don't just remove ROTC from campus, stop refusing grant $$$ from DoD, DOE, USAF, USN & all other military contributors. While they're @ it, refuse ANY future $$$ grants from the military.
But as we all know, liberals have about as much determination as France has military resolve & they'll never back up what they say w/ actions such as those I've listed.
We do need to change that rule, but in the process, stop blaming the wrong administration, it only makes the argument seem more like an agenda rather than an attempt @ social justice.
Of course, liberals love revising history to suit their cause so expect more to come & no change due to this, ESPECIALLY when McCain gets the election in Nov.
get it straight, who passed the rule, nothing to do w/ sexual orientation!
Comment: The late Distingushed Gentleman from Arizone, Senator Barry Goldwater said it best: "You don't have to be straight to shoot straight." That's coming from the conservative that even conservatives feared, yet respected. Things need to change, no doubt.
But here's what I'm ticked @: Why is it that "Don't ask/Don't tell" gets blamed on Bush by the liberals, especially in the ivory tower of academia? It was Slick Willy that it passed under, not Dubya.
Here @ UCSB they wanted to remove the ROTC program from campus because of "Don't ask/Don't tell" citing it as a Bush directive.
Well, if you're going to remove it, might as well give back all that $$$ in grants from DOE, DOD, USAF,
