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  • Posted By: jperiod @ 07/21/2008 11:23:17 PM

    Believing in the Bible is your civil right, just as not believing in it is mine. And let me point out that the Bible is NOT this country's constitution.

  • Posted By: thinkingchristian @ 07/21/2008 6:00:51 PM

    Johnwestpointer, I accept the Bible as God's word as much as you do, but I think it needs to be pointed out to the general public that of the 8 Bible verses used to claim that homosexuality is always wrong in God's eyes, none of the eight can be interpreted as an outright condemnation of all homosexuality. Several of them don't even refer unambiguously to homosexuality; the ones in the Old Testament are included in a list of regulations that also disallow the eating of shellfish, which most Christians don't seem to find abominable, and of the ones in the New Testament that seem clearly to refer to homosexual behavior, the context of the discussion in the particular book of the New Testament makes it very questionable to conclude that God condemns homosexuality. This isn't the forum to do Bible interpretation vs. Bible interpretation at forty paces, but I just think that Christians who know better shouldn't allow other Chrsitians to claim that the Bible "clearly" abhors all homosexuality in people. That's just inaccurate.

    • Posted By: jperiod @ 07/21/2008 11:20:47 PM

      Believing in the Bible is your civil right, just as not believing in it is mine. And may I point out, the Bible is NOT this country's constitution.

    • Posted By: johnwestpointer @ 07/21/2008 6:10:16 PM

      As you can see by my Profile name, I have served my country in the US Army. I agree with yesyoucan2008 that a VAST majority of military personnel would rather NOT have an openly gay or lesbian soldier in their unit. If I were still on active duty, I would courtmartial any soldier that was openly gay. It DOES bring down unit morale and is NOT conducive to good order and discipline. An effective fighting force does not need the distraction caused by this type of behavior.

  • Posted By: foolkiller @ 07/21/2008 10:34:36 PM

    Oh, dear, Brucie, don't you dare tell that big, handsome, gorgeous sergeant that I lie awake at night just dreaming of getting my hands on his to die for hunkie body. Oh, I'd just be crushed. Do you suppose he would let me hold his big, strong hand when we march?

  • Posted By: lonestarskibum @ 07/21/2008 9:23:23 PM

    This nation is not as liberal as some would have us believe. No matter how much they may want to believe it, California is not the bellwether for the nation. Most of us still believe that homosexuality is not an acceptable behavior. As a 24-year military veteran, I can tell you that I would not have wanted openly homosexual people serving in my unit.
    Homosexuals seem to think they're the only ones with rights. What about my right not to have homosexuality thrown in my face? Why don't I have that? Sorry, homosexuality is aberrant behavior that should not be allowed to become "OK."

  • Posted By: Julia12345 @ 07/21/2008 9:15:37 PM

    I feel sorry for you bigots out there. You are so focused on avoiding what faces you in the mirror every morning that you are making everyone around you miserable. I think I recall something in the Bible about keeping one's own house clean, throwing the first stone and all that...there are numerous references to minding your own freaking business in the Bible as well. But aside from that Scripture lesson, there is something else to consider: in my vast experience of people, I have NEVER met a homophobe who was not him/herself gay. Sorry, guys, but your true colors are showing every time you gay-bash.

  • Posted By: akvectorgirl @ 07/21/2008 8:29:53 PM

    Let me tell you about when I spent 10 month on an aircraft carrier in the Middle East: In my 'room,' we had about 50 women, of which two were lesbians - girlfriends at that, who happened to be in bunks one on top of the other. Now, any of you ignorant people out there tell me this never created an issue?! I think you need to go out in the real world and watch how differently gay people act compared to strait people. Strait people don't need to make a point of making sure everybody else know they are straight. We don't act or dress out extra to showcase our sexuality. It seems as though the ones who were/are gay feel the need to try to push the limit as much as they can and get away with it. THAT IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR, and strait people don't do it. If you want to be gay, fine, go outside and do it where we aren't all forced to watch you be gay. And don't you dare try to push it on anybody else. Maybe if all you faggots out there acted normal and didn't try to showcase it, the rest of us wouldn't have as big of a problem with it. Till you can learn to just shut your mouth and act normal, no, none of you should be in a positon so respectable and honorable as serving in the United States Military.

  • Posted By: l-schulz @ 07/21/2008 8:12:22 PM

    THE GAYING OF AMERICA. YOU CANT WATCH ABC NBC OR CBS WITHOUT SEEING GAY RELATIONSHIPS. NOW I MUST HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH MY CHILDREN PREMATURELY. IT IS SAD THAT OUR FOCUS IS AGAINST THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY IN AMERICA IS UNDER ATTACK, 1ST IT WAS OUT OF THE CLOSET, THEN DONT ASK DONT TELL , NOW ITS ALL OVER PRIME TIME TV. THE DECLINE OF A GREAT SOCIETY. WHATS NEXT BEASTIALITY?

  • Posted By: hankthehorrible @ 07/21/2008 3:03:58 PM

    Sane in Utah, why do libs ALWAYS have to drag Christianity in to every argument? It gets old. Yep, I'm a Christian, love my Lord & Savior, but I embrace gays & lesbians, as does the congregation @ our church because it's what the Gospel teaches. I gurantee if the many of you leave Christianity out of the argument for once, you may actually have a receptive ear in most of those Christians you so abhor. Talk about hatred, SHEESH!

    • Posted By: Tony C. @ 07/21/2008 3:08:28 PM

      Hank:

      DO your homework. Every evangelical whack-job is a republican! No one abuses religion and uses God as an excuse for racism, homophobia, bigotry and discrimination more thatn the GOP! and republicans as a whole.

      • Posted By: hankthehorrible @ 07/21/2008 7:35:58 PM

        Tony, have done the homework LONG before many on here & yep, it's true, sad to say. But there's just as many whackjobs hiding in the laft camp as well that see scum like Che Guevarra as a patron saint & his ways as liberating to this very day. Bottom line, whackos are everywhere, we as humans just tend overlook the ones closest to us or our cause/camp. By the way, a lot of these folks aren't the voice for the average Joe, they feel they are, but really ain't. Only problem is the media gives them more than their 15 minutes of show & they lap it up.

      • Posted By: johnwestpointer @ 07/21/2008 5:48:34 PM

        My Bible teaches me that homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God. You can argue all day long, but it won't change that FACT. How will you argue that before God's throne?

      • Posted By: johnwestpointer @ 07/21/2008 5:45:59 PM

        The Bible teaches that homosexuality is an abomination. Think about THAT the next time you want to challenge this. You can argue until you are blue in the face, but you can't argue when you face your maker!

  • Posted By: FIREMAN @ 07/21/2008 6:26:33 PM

    We don't need the policy. We have the UCMJ! Assault is assault sexual or other wise. These individuals should be allowed in the Military no matter the sexul preference. If they get out of line they should be treated and punished the same as a heterosexual soldier is if the assault the opposite sex.

  • Posted By: military man iraq @ 07/21/2008 5:30:48 PM

    dawayne
    I agree with you. I don't care if the military lets gays in or not. What I'm saying is this. In the military there is a close net of friendship that only people in the military knows. If you are in a fire fight you have to trust the man on your left and right. What happens if the man next to you is gay and the other man next to him dislikes gays(you cant change everybodys mind) that not only puts these two men in trouble but the whole team. I'm saying let the military have gays but don't tell everyone. Every comment has said let the military be open like the rest of the population but guess what we can't because we have a job to do. And that is to protect this country from our enemies. Now if I worked in an office or anything normal population does I say great be open. But we dont we shoot people and kill people so you can have this comments. like I said if you have never been in the military you have no right to comment. If you want I'm going back to Iraq in 4-5 months you are happy to come along and see what we go through.

    • Posted By: dawayne @ 07/21/2008 5:48:06 PM

      everyone has the right to speak on the issue. it's unfortunate the department of defense had forfited its voice. but bc i enlisted into the navy (AA), i suppose i have more of a right to speak, according to some. it is unfortunate that our proudly distinguished military personal (or atleast some) feel as though differences cannot be set aside to accomplish a mission. it has been done, and is done everyday worldwide.

      • Posted By: thinker2008 @ 07/21/2008 6:20:48 PM

        to military man iraq: your comments are intelligent and fair, but how is this different from someone who is racist and is in a bunker with an african-american?? or an anti-semite with a jewish soldier?? there are always going to be people who have trust issues because of their personal views, but that can't be a justification for banning gays anymore than it can for banning blacks.

    • Posted By: joeayo @ 07/21/2008 5:39:06 PM

      I think we need to have a policy where we allow gays, but maybe allow for increased privacy. We need to do away with the big showers where 50 naked men are showering at the same time. I am not sure segregating gays from straights will be good because a houseful of horny young gay soldiers who knows everyone else in the place is gay too wont erupt into massive orgies. I dont know, other countries have more experience with allowing gays to serve in military, how do they deal with this? I do think the generations have changed and most straight young people these days have a high degree of respect for gays that past generations didnt have. How do we deal with men and women soldiers that want to have sex now? Rules should be in place that are comparable with gay men and women as the question about what if 2 gay soldiers bunking next to each other want to have a sexual relationship and how does it effect others around them? As it is now, we all read that 65,000 gays are estimated to be in the military now, so the gays are already there and serving. Seems we need to modernize our thinking and deal with it.

  • Posted By: thinkingchristian @ 07/21/2008 5:56:08 PM

    To Johnwestpointer: I'm a Christian too and accept the same Bible you do, but do not accept that any passage of the eight you will refer to explicitly condemns all forms of homosexual behavior. This isn't the forum to do Bible vs. Bible at 40 paces but other Christians need to stand up and take issue with this absolutely incorrect assertion that so many Christians put forward that the Bible clearly condemns homosexuality. Sit down with someone who knows the Greek and the Hebrew and talk about the contexts which give those verses their meaning, and you won't be able to make this misguided claim.

    • Posted By: joeayo @ 07/21/2008 6:14:57 PM

      I am also a Christian. One point brought up in college was all 11 decipals wrote gospels. 1/2 of them got books added to the bible. Why is it the catholic church disqualified the writtings from those who lived with and personally knew Jesus? One set of books written by Judas Escariot was probably the closest thing to a daily diary as the others wrote about Jesus 20 and 30 years after the crusifiction. Since Judas committed suicide before Jesus was put on the cross, its likely to have the most accurate accounting about Jesus. In studying the gospels that the catholic church decided NOT to include in the bible, you might find the reason why rather quickly. Jesus was far more accepting and forgiving of sinners then the church wants you to know about. There are accounts of Jesus raising a gay man's lover from the dead and there are writtings about how Jesus accepted and helped whores and homosexuals all through the books that were not included in the new testiment. It seems actually Jesus was far more accepting and forgiving of all sins in general and not just sexuality based. So dont let these under educated people fool you, Jesus did not comdemn or put down homosexuality. In fact seeing that 30 roman emperors actually married other men and gay marriage was fully legal and accepted in Greek, Roman and Egyptian cultures it seems gay marriage actually has a 3,000 year tradition - this was until Saint Augustine came in with ideas contrary to Jesus's teachings such as introducing celebacy for nuns and priests and criminalizing homosexuality. There are actual passages that DID get into the bible such as Jesus healing the Roman Soldier's slave, back in roman days, a slave's primary job was being a sex slave. Male slaves were forced into homosexuality 95% of the time, roman soldiers in Judeah brought their homosexual brothels with them. The openly gay roman's brought this culture and it was all around Jesus but we dont find anything but mistranslations which could be mistaken for condemnation of homosexuals. The fact is people are working very hard to come in Jesus's name but they corrupt the message he wanted to give which was forgiveness of all sins.

  • Posted By: Ric86 @ 07/21/2008 5:31:37 PM

    Why do people insist on teaching children that same-sex behavior is supposedly equal to male/female behavior? Because their two-faced hypocrites, pushing on the children of others what they would never ever choose, out of nothing more than self-centered gratification and certainly total moral confusion. Behavior is always a choice or else it's a crime. Children do not understand sexual issues as infants but learn them as they grow, from the rest of us who supposedly have their best interests at heart. right. If it does not matter for a man attracted to another man to serve in the army, then you two-faced pushers must acknowledge it does not matter for men and women to share a shower in the army. HYPOCRITES!!! Stop lying to our children. They deserve a mother and father, not your political correct lying to justify your morally confused attempt to feel good about pushing your concept of so-called social conscience justice. Stop lying to our children!!

    • Posted By: johnwestpointer @ 07/21/2008 6:01:18 PM

      My Bible teaches me that homosexuality is an abomination before God. You queers can argue all day long about how "right" it is, but you won't be able to argue before your Maker on judgement day! Conservatives, if you don't wake up, the liberal agenda is going to be pushed down your throat (pun intended) and once a precident is established, it will be very difficult to overcome. Take the time to VOTE, and vote your conscious, because the minority will get their way if we don't act NOW!

      • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 07/21/2008 6:11:48 PM

        Your bible is of no importance. It is just a man-made book of no rela validitiy and of no importance to US law.

        Since there is no god the is no abomination.

        And I would remind you that the majority was opposed to intergrating the military and opposed to equal rights for blacks. So much for what a mindless majority wants. It is not relevant to US law as opposed to EQUAL rights. The tyranny of the majority is not to be the basis for US law..

  • Posted By: military man iraq @ 07/21/2008 5:10:40 PM

    If you have never been in the military. In close quarters or in combat. Know anything about it. All of the people making comments have never had to sleep take a shower or had anything to do with gays in the military. I'm not saying gay is right or wrong all I'm saying they don't need to let everyone know. As the old saying goes what you dont wont hurt you knowning this will. And anyone in or been in gay or not knows that.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 07/21/2008 5:37:05 PM

      I have talked with many many people (well over 300) who currently serve or have served in the past. Almost every one of them has said that they have no problem with gays serving, and oppose the don't ask don't tell. One corporal said, "How come they can openly die, but cannot open be gay?" Also, many of them knew who in thier units were gay or lesbian, and did not care. Some of them even lied to investigators when asked because they felt that the law was illegal and unconstiutional.

      As one Marine Captian said "Gays and lesbians have and will contintue to give their lives for thier country and bravely watch the backs of their fellow Marines. That is the ONLY thing that matters. The rest is just bullsh*t."

  • Posted By: yesyoucan2008 @ 07/21/2008 5:36:47 PM

    I am currently serving in the Army for over 22 years, and frankly I am opposed to the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell. 75% percent of America may think it would be okay, but survey the men and women in uniform. I bet the numbers go down (no pun intended). It is about working in a comfortable environment along side fellow Soldiers. Most gay personnel in the service keep their personal feelings and lifestyles separate from work. If you were to openly expose them to a majority of straight men for example, you might have some hostile working situations. I think Obama's direct support on this issue is one of the few things he is wrong on. I may be wrong on this but I am on the inside looking out.

  • Posted By: tonycbrook @ 07/21/2008 5:05:25 PM

    This, like the many other tactics of "Gay Friendly" politicians and activists, will not prevail. As a former Naval Petty Officer, it's not "widely" accepted and will not be good for the majority if the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" is repealed. That being said, if you want to serve your country then you will do it by the laws enacted. The last thing we need is for our troops subjected to "openly gay" troops hitting on them and/or weakening our peception among other military powers.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 07/21/2008 5:31:21 PM

      It will be accepted if the military teaches its trooops to accept it.

      You are making an typical foolish assumption that gay troops will "hjit on" non-gay fellow troops. The likleyhood of that happening is not very high.

      As for a weakened perception of other military powers, they actually have a weakened perception of us already BECAUSE OF the anti-gay policy. As has been stated before, several of our allies have laready realized how asinine this type of policy is and allow gays to serve.

  • Posted By: Tired of politicians @ 07/21/2008 5:30:06 PM

    I have a problem with people who think they know what I want. i.e. Our politicians Instead of beginning discussion in Washington DC why not begin discussions on a military base and ask those who will have to deal with the situation created how they fell about it. Its all fair and good to point out the 12,000 openly gay military personnel who were discharged in the last 15 years, but how will the politicians deal with lets say 75,000 non gay military personnel that leave because they feel uncomfortable for whatever reason in the next 15 years. Would our politicians the re-activate the draft to fill our military needs. I doubt that would happen to much backlash from another voting group. This hole issue is once again a case of the squeeky wheel getting the grease, not what is best for this country, and I for one have had enough.

  • Posted By: neophyte @ 07/21/2008 5:29:26 PM

    As long as there was no war and we could fill our quotas it was easy to say "keep the queers out" Now we need more warm bodies to fill our unit rosters. Not so important anymore. When I was in guys used to pretend to be gay to get kicked out. They required them to "proove it". I'm not sure how that was done but I think it involved a physical exam for injuries.

  • Posted By: dawayne @ 07/21/2008 5:24:46 PM

    people who support dadt and discriminatory acts like it need to mature. personally, the military needs to adapt to a higher moral code by making its installations co-ed. our military prides itself on honor and disipline..where is the honor and disipline in needing seperate quarters? are our military personel not dignified enough to understand that our militarys overall function is more important than our own personal/social/political divides? 20 of the 25 nato militarys ( england,canada included) proudly honor thier gay/lesbian soldiers. where are we in the fight? think about it..

  • Posted By: Tired of politicians @ 07/21/2008 5:20:36 PM

    Here a stupid idea why not asked those in the military how they feel. What would Susan Davis say if in the next 15 years after we repel the "don't ask don't tell " policy we lose 75,000 non gay personnel who just don't feel comfortable for whatever reason. I guess we could always re-activate the draft to fill our military needs.

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