The lawyers designing interrogation techniques cited Jack Bauer more frequently than the Constitution.
Comment: IF BUSH HAD DONE HIS JOB, YOU WOULDN'T BE HAVING TO WORRYING ABOUT IRAQ OR THIS CONVERSATION .
Comment: Interesting article, but there are no facts to back it up, only hearsay and accusations. The author and publisher have failed the very basics and should either retract the article or prove this theory.
Comment: Lithwick's conjecture is pretty preposterous. Having interviewed some of those "charged" with abusing prisoners, it is pretty clear that there was no central authority who granted permission for abuse. Yes, the cuprit IS Hollywood, the center of so much moral outrage and hand-wringing over the inhumanity of the Bush administration's effort to actually treat terrorists as enemies instead of misunderstoood teenagers or righteous avenging angels for America's s "misdeeds" around the world But it is hardly Jack Bauer or the fictional escapades of "24". that taught everyone in America that doing whatever it takes to make the right thing happen, whether it is legal or not, is the "moral" thing to do. Having grown up on Mickey Spillane and endless movie/TV depictions of police detectives and private eyes "getting their man" through legally questionable or downright illegal means, it doesn't surprise me or any thinking person that young officers and soldiers, confronted with real-life moral dilemmas (unlike most of their twit critics) have often opted to "do whatever it takes" and let the consequences fall on them. Thank you Hollywood. Now lay off them or do something constructive in this mess, rather than hassle the men and women doing the job or their Commander-in-Chief.
Comment: The Nixon Administration had Watergate precipatated by his underlings watching too much Mission Impossible. Now we have "24' and Jack Baurer. The Bush GOP has done it to us again. How anyone could vote for a republican after some of the fiascos I've been reading about lately is beyond me. His fiascos in foreign policy will take a hundred years to repair. Likewise our children will be paying for the deficit created by his domestic/war fiascos.
Comment: The Nixon Administration had Watergate precipatated by his underlings watching too much Mission Impossible. Now we have "24' and Jack Baurer. The Bush GOP has done it to us again. How anyone could vote for a republican after some of the fiascos I've been reading about lately is beyond me. His fiascos in foreign policy will take a hundred years to repair. Likewise our children will be paying for the deficit created by his domestic/war fiascos.
Comment: The Nixon Administration had Watergate precipatated by his underlings watching too much Mission Impossible. Now we have "24' and Jack Baurer. The Bush GOP has done it to us again. How anyone could vote for a republican after some of the fiascos I've been reading about lately is beyond me. His fiascos in foreign policy will take a hundred years to repair. Likewise our children will be paying for the deficit created by his domestic/war fiascos.
Comment: The infamous Watergate breakin was a result of watching too much Mission Impossible by the Nixon underlings. Now this. More policy based on fiction and movies. The Bush GOP has done more to ruin my country than I believed possible. I can't wait to have these oafs out get a President that can put a subject, verb, and object in a sentence. It will take a hundred years to regain the trust of other people.
Comment: It's very simple: either a person is a prisoner of war or he or she is a criminal suspect. There are rules for dealing with either. Using physical pressure to make someone talk isn't part of either set of rules.
People on the government payroll who behave otherwise are my enemies and enemies of the Constitution and of the entire free world--they'r esubhuman scum, and their motives don't matter.
Discussion over.
Comment: So what is being said is legal and good to do! Now if one of these blogger or one of there relatives, children, parents, etc pissed someone in the federal government off by blogging an illegal happening of this person and he, she, or they decided, like the scientist suspected of using the anthrax on people, to send him to Guantanamo as a terrorist, it would be OK?? With all that this administration has gone out of it's way to deceive the American People this would be very acceptable behavior. Those creeps lie to themselves, never mind what they've done to this country. Look in a mirror. You need some soul searching!!
Comment: Wasn't there a case a few years ago where an Army Officer held a gun to a suspected terrorist, fired off a round next to his head thereby, getting information that saved the lives of one of his platoons. The reason I remember this, the media reported that he was being court-martialed for this "offence???.
Comment: You can't expect us to take you seriously. The only disconnect is between political parties in powwer at the time of war. We have become so civilized that we can no longer defend ourselves when it gets past the lawyers waving their flaccid little legal papers in the cold hard wind of the reality of rabbid murderers we are facing worldwide. War is not civilized and if you think it is anything less than murdering your fellow man and it can be fought humainly then you are deluding yourself.. The only humane way to fight a war is once your IMPOTENT diplomats have reached a point where vague threats and bribes have failed and we commit troops to battle is to," cry havoc and loose the dogs of war." in other words, become war destroy your enemys without mercy or remorse until our sons and daughters can return home victorious and any other regime that might choose to take us on would think long and hard before being stupid enough to do so. The term torture has been redifined by a worldwide group of individuals who do not believe that war is never justified. I am an individual that believes that war is the absolute worse endeavor that man can undertake, BUT there is a difference between discomfort even extreme discomfort and torture. None of the individuals claim to have been beaten, or have their finger of toenails pulled out or their testicles pummeled or actually have their heads submerged under water for two minute+ periods. We certainly have not cut off their heads which is their favorite ending to a session of torture. My biggbest question I need answered is why is our Fourth Estate quoickly becoming our enemy's Fifth Column? Do you think they believe in the First Amendment?
Comment: I once met the man who trained interrogators for the army during WWII. He emphatically stated that the US did not use torture techniques against Nazi leaders during that War.
Comment: I am not saying we should torture anyone but I have been to Afghanistan and have met with families who have suffered terribly under the Taliban and Al Quida and let me tell you these people will peel the skin right off your body while they gang rape your wife and young daughter and then kill your family in front of you. We should show these terrorist no quarter. The bleeding hearts think these people can be saved or should be treated humanly they are not Americans but enemies of America they were behind 9/11 or have we forgotten already like we said we wouldn???t. Remember all the flag waving and the cries of "WE WILL NEVER FORGET" well lets not and honor those who lost there lives on 9/11. BOO HOO a terrorist wasn???t treated nicely enough lets file a federal law suit and give them millions. All those guys a GITMO are healthier then when they arrived when we have kids going hungry right here in America. I say ???F??? them they are killers of Americans and should be treated as such.
Comment: I
Comment: The question remains: Will we hold ourselves and our leaders accountable for these war crimes or will we demonstrate that we are no longer the moral leader that we once were? Our leaders sactioned war crimes and lied to the public about it - surely a high crime worthy of impeachment.
And this debate isn't about the terrorists. Its about us and the nation we say we are. And its about the treatment that our soldiers will suffer in the future. And its about our leadership in the world.
We have joined the ranks of the small, petty nations and sanctioned thier crimes with our own. Our leaders have done more harm to America than the terrorists ever could, destroying our legal system, our reputation, and our moral core.
No matter what your politics, these are crimes and people should be held accountable. Those who believe otherwise are not patriots, but hypocrites and political hacks and -- like it or not -- in league with the terrorist agenda to destroy America.
Comment: I just want to hit on that "no longer the moral leader that we once were" comment. Have you ever researched any of the wars we've ever been in? I mean a single one at all? Torture has been used in every war that we've ever been in. We haven't joined the ranks of small, petty nations and sanctioned their crimes with our own, we've been torturing for information since this country was founded.
The people who do these things are trained. Part of the process as stated in one of the posts below is that you get a dose of the medicine you're handing out. People need to do their research before they make comments like the one's on the majority of these posts. Unlike what the enemy is allowed to do, we still maintain moral standards. We put restrictions on physical torture. Most torture performed is psychological anyway. Water boarding has no serious threat of killing the subject, it only makes him feel/think he is drowning. So instead of cutting off our enemies' heads and other horrific things we set and maintain standards for ourselves. It may not make every American happy because there's no way to make every single person happy no matter what the case is, but it sets us apart. Here's a question I pose to you, If you had a family member or friend who's life could possibly threatened and the only way to get the information to stop that threat was to get it out of someone who knew how to save them, what would you do? Now add the fact that there is a time constraint and you don't know when or where exactly. It's not the same case for our government or military exactly but instead of a family member, it's a squad of Soldiers (Generally 12 Soldiers), or a convoy of humanitarian aid supplies going through Iraq, or even an attack on our own soil that could harm civilians much like yourself.
Comment: This article is total fiction. I happen to know a guy who was involved in an incident for which he may face prosecution. He and his chain of command got their methods from the US resistance to torture training manual. That is why they used things like waterboarding. They had personally experienced all the methods they used themselves as part of their training. That is why, when the word came down to "step it up" they chose those methods. They dedided that if they had gone through it in training and it hadn't done them harm, it would be defensible.
Now we are treated with the spectacle of know-nothings spouting rumors they pulled off the internet somewhere as established fact.
Small wonder at that. How many Pulitzer prize winning journalists have wound up admitting they made it all up? It's a whole lot easier to make it all up than to do actual research little girl.
Comment: I"ve never posted on an article before, usually I read, get mad at the amount of ignorance that dwells in our country, and then I move on. I read this article, got mad, read the comments, and was sick. It's no wonder so many people are sick of our country's policies... the only thing people believe is what they see or read from the news. Sources that obviously support their own political agenda's. You have your left wing and right wing propaganda and people heard into the different news agencies like cattle. Just because they support your opinions (which you rightly have) doesn't mean they are right. Try checking a few sources before you comment. I am truly in shock that an article like this could actually be published and on top of that I am completely dumbfounded that there are people out there who truly and honestly buy into this crap. Our contry does need improvement but before you go pointing fingers, each and every one of you need to check yourselves. I've gotten off topic but I think my point has been made. If it hasn't well then tune back into your political news party because you're hopeless.
Comment: Torture is disgusting. The manual used by the U.S. after 911 originated from the mid 1950???s and was published by the Chinese Communist Revolutionary Party. It was not used to extract information: Only confessions.
Torture in the U.S. A. is treason. Its use saps the moral fiber of our country.
But, the author is missing the news in the data: The rulers of the Murdoch Empire are hell bent on making torture as American as apple pie.
The author pounds on Jack Bauer, a fictional character. Fox creates his stage, buys his props, and q-cards Kefir his lines. But, advocacy for torture by Fox doesn???t stop at the boundaries of the stage set at ???24???. Fox news and the O-Reilly report are propagandists for torture.
The big question here is: Why?
I can only speculate. Could it have anything to do with Murdoch's 4 billion dollar investment in China? Could it be associated with the tremendous gifts, hundreds of millions of U.S. dollars, Murdoch has given to members of the R.C.P.? My guess is that the Chinese leadership has leveraged Murdoch???s investment in China. They have coerced him to act as an advocacy group to legitimize torture in the United States in order to reduce our stature among all nations.
But, OOPS! That???s treason, a capital offense.
Comment: if someone was pulling off your fingernails you'd probably admit to anything, even if it wasn't true...
when is torture EVER really justified? how can we say that we're a civilized country if we torture people? we get all incensed over OUR people being tortured of course, American soldiers being tortured?! MY GOD! how terrible! how awful!
am i saying it's not? of course not... but how can you think that it's not just as terrible when it's someone else being tortured?
oh, right, becuase you're a selfish prig who doesn't really care if what you do is right or wrong or have any justification in this world...
how can we expect that our soldiers, our loved ones, will ever be treated with any respect or decency in captivity when we do awful things to the loved ones of their captors?
Comment: First of all I will start off by stating that you cannot get accurate news by simply believing what any news channel, magazine or blog will tell you. Fox is run by neoconservative morons and CNN is run by a bunch of liberal pansies. If you want accurate information about the world then you should take the time to do some research. Our government does have a lot of incompetents but they have not based their torture policy on a tv show, as much as you would like to blindly accept the word of a random newswriter. The United States does not have a perfect track record for our torture policy. We have tortured everyone from witches to suspected Communists (who in their right mind actually believes Karl Marx?) and have done so wrongly. However, we have also caught spies that sold nuclear secrets and dozens of terrorists by way of physical discomfort, psychological manipulation, and truth serums. I hate to burst your pretty little bubble of idealism but the fact is that torture does indeed work for the vast majority of extreme cases. The very few terrorists that we actually torture give up useful information about the locations and operations of their comrades and it (excuse the capitalization but I don't have the option to Bold or Underline here) SAVES THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN LIVES. It's an ugly thing that we have to do but when we are at war and they don't play by the rules then we can't either if we intend to win. The reason we won the Revolution was because we didn't wear bright colorful uniforms and stand in straight lines to make nice polite targets for the opposing side like the British did. The terrorists are fighting in a cowardly manner for the evil cause of enforcing Islam upon the world. The only way to win is to root them out and either imprison or exterminate them. The truth of life is that we can't get useful information out of extremists by saying "Please" and "Thank you" even if that is a pretty idea. Also don't presume to think you understand all of Christianity by basing your opinion of it on Southern Baptists and Catholics. I don't make atheist jokes on here as funny as they are. You shouldn't shove your opinions of religeon down our throats just because you have a stick up your butt.
Comment: Torture has been used since the founding of our country to root out everything from witches to Communists and finally terrorists. There are multiple ways to extract information from the thieves, murderors, and anarchists that threaten our nation (not that I should have to remind people that terrorists don't have rights because you kind of lose them when you murder someone) and most of those ways involve severe physical discomfort of some kind. Our modern techniqes are downright humanitarian compared to our old methods and are a spring vacation compared to what THEY do to our troops. The faint of heart cannot handle the stark reality that we are at war and they commit war crimes constantly while we are well within the boundaries of the Geneva Convention. This isn't another witch-hunt we're talking about here, it is known terrorists that we have captured and they are conditioned to withstand everything short of torture. They don't deserve to live at all, but in exchange for information they are allowed to live. Only a complete imbecile would presume that our government based its torture policy on a tv show. Another interesting fact is that we've captured more than half of the known terrorists on our list by getting their comrades to spill the beans by means of torture. Fox is a bunch of neoconservative idiots and CNN is full of liberal pansies. Do your research if you want actual facts out of the news.
Comment: What?! "not that I should have to remind people that terrorists don't have rights because you kind of lose them when you murder someone?" Oh my God, has our ignorance reached such abysmal levels? In the United States of America, everyone has rights, even criminals! Yes, even murderers, rapists, and thieves have rights. That is what the founding fathers decided so as to differentiate America from Europe - the rights of all people accused of crime (guilty or not) are written into the Bill of Rights in our Constitution!
I want to cry for my country.
Comment: It's sickening to think national policy is being led by the writers of a fictional television show. What next, is Homeland Securty going to employ dark knights in high-speed tanks to patrol city streets? Maybe they can get some iron men to crush the terrorists' crystal skulls.
Comment: I'm dumber for reading your comment. If you actually believe this crap then I feel sorry for you and others like you. You people need to get it into your heads that we are at war. War isn't about coddling a known terrorist or enemy combatant after he's been captured. Information has been the key to this war. Anyone would be naive to think that all the information extracted from torture is useful, but the reason that many civilians like yourself and Soldiers are still alive today is because information has been gained from torture that has made leaps and bounds in this war. You need to stop believing everything you see or read from the news agencies. Sure some things are true, but when is the last time you heard about a new school being built in an Iraq or Afghanistan neighborhood? You don't. It's not news and it doesn't reel in people who believe the kind of crap that comes out of articles like this. With all that said, I have a challenge for all of you who buy into crap like this. Read more than one article from more than once source before you make mindless comments like those posted on this article.
Comment: As a Vet of the Afghan War I could not have said it better. Thanks
Comment: All experienced interrogators know that torture rarely yields any truthful information, and the truthful information it does yield can be extracted through other means. You make the statement that "torture saves lives" not because you have any evidence for such a claim (because even the US Government does not have this evidence, or else it would have presented it years ago), but because you want to believe it.
People said the same thing about the PATRIOT Act and domestic surveillance without any evidence that those policies helped locate or convict terrorists or "protect freedom." Really, your case could be easily restated as "We are at war, and I am thinking tribally, and that means that my tribe has the right to do anything it wants against the other tribes in order to win the war. Consequences be damned." Little do you know that you are not winning this war, that you cannot win this war, and that you are only destroying your country in the process.
Comment: What is truly frightening is that people like you actually BELIEVE THE ARTICLE!
Comment: Who watchs FOX ? The stink of right wing whacko.Rather set my armpits on fire than watch that crap.
Comment: I wonder; Christians celebrate the fictional torture and murder of God by the authorities! Does that make them sympatheic to torture and murder of innocents in some perverted logic?
And why do the Christians not celebrate the 40 years their GOD lived with them as a human... that seems like it would be far, far more significant tham making up some story about appeasing his "Father" co-God for some made up transgression against that same Father co-God...anf for that matter, given thgat is only one God but some how fractured into 3 co-equal peices...wouldn't the Son be just as pissed as the Father? And where is the Mother anyhow? How odd, that Christians seem to be so upset with homosexual Love; yet their God is made up of only male aspects; their Priests would only be male if they had a choice, and having a Man loving Priest is enough to split some Christian cults! And why are all the Evangelical demogogs demented men? Falwell, Dobson, Robertson, Graham and Son...the list of crazies goes on and on!
Comment: Ok, lets try to focus here... nothing you said had anything to do with this article. And about the whold torture of Jesus... we focus on the symbol and meaning rather than the actual torture and death. I'm not going to repeat this anymore, learn your facts and check your sources before you open your ignorant mouths...
Comment: I do not watch "24" because of the use of torture that are part of the story. I find the show morally repugnanat for that reason. When I was a child I thought that we were the good guys. I am not so naive as to believe that now. I am sorry to say that I expect that forces within our government have probably been using it for a long time and it sickens me. Looks like our country is no better that any other that uses torture to further its interests.
Comment: I do not watch "24" because of the use of torture that are part of the story. I find the show morally repugnanat for that reason. When I was a child I thought that we were the good guys. I am not so naive as to believe that now. I am sorry to say that I expect that forces within our government have probably been using it for a long time and it sickens me. Looks like our country is no better that any other that uses torture to further its interests.
Comment: I would like to say that I was not and am not for the war. Not because I think we should never do so, but because we were lied to about why. However, I have no problem with torturing a terrorist when many innocent lives are at risk. How would you deal with terrorists michele1313? Bring them cotton candy and ask sweetly ask, "Honeybun, where's the bomb?" I'm sure that would work wonders. NOT!!!!! There is no reasoning with them. Do not for a second, think that they wouldn't skin you alive(I mean, they would actually skin you alive) if they could and then dismember anyone with you. You may turn the other cheek all you want and all you will get is another slap on the cheek.
Also, I don't really believe this article but wouldn't put it past them. 24 is the best! Jack Bauer is a great fictional character. You can tell he's FICTIONAL, because he's willing to do what it takes and NOT point fingers later. He never places blame on others for his actions. Definately fictional.
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Comment: STILL ANOTHER NUTTY NEWSWEEK ARTICLE!
Comment: Republicans look to Jack Bauer for inspiration. Dems to Mr. Rogers. "Can you spell Jihad? I knew you could."
Comment: Republicans look to Jack Bauer for inspiration. Democrats look to Mr. Rogers. "Can you spell Jihad? I knew you could."
Comment: This kind of article is typical liberal hogwash. It wouldn't matter even if the interrogation turned up a "nuke" planted in a major US population center. If it was found because of "Jack Bauer" techniques, it would have to thrown out of court....
Comment: I don't know whether to laugh or cry
Comment: 24 did not give us torture is 'good'. We already had this desire in own mind and 24 show the ugliness already inside us. Another wasy to view this is that it is the 'practical' way to get information from bad guys that follow no rules or laws, legal or moral, in doing their dirty deeds.
Comment: I watched this show for the first season then forced myself not to watch it even though I found it highly entertaining. I felt this show was nothing more than right-wing propoganda designed to get the US to see torture as a tool that had a place in the American Government....Proof you may ask?...It was on FOX.
Comment: If demand it to America,,,,, demand it too from Mainland CHina, Russia, countries of the Middle East including Israel......... you are bias...... to hit only America.....
Comment: No, we set the bar, and live up to it. We're Americans. Only this bag of evildoers, awash in moral relativism and hatred, took America below the bar. I do not care about the behaviors of other nations. The fact that the world is full of those places is what made America special. This isn't about fair, it's right and wrong. This isn't bias, it is pointing to the ways people were manipulated, the laws ignored, our standards discarded, and our reputation soiled.
We are Americans. We as a people do not believe in war first. We do not believe in wars of agression, torture, detention without cause, or kangaroo courts. Our constitution and treaties will be reaffirmed after this sick and pathetic Administration ends.
The Republican party, for whom I voted in the Reagan years has morphed into a fascist police state party, that has expanded and trumped any abuse of the Nixon Administration. Taking cue in this legal vacuum and lawlessness, we have come t find Policing agencies at all levels engaged in Domestic espionage, including the recent case in Maryland, where Peace and Anti-Death Penalty groups were infiltrated.
This sickness must end, and I don't care about the shrill labels and other things. Liberal? Is it liberal to want my nation restored? Is it liberal to want a balanced budget, due process of law, Courts that restrain police to the limits of the 1st, 4th, and 5th amendments?
No Sir, there is no Bias, and we do not compare ourselves with the worst. We're Americans.
Comment: Now I've heard everything.
If Bush's policy on torture came from a television drama then the government in this country is truly pathetic. Americans are so apathetic, lazy, whiny and such comlainers, yet they do NOTHING to try and change things. Few go to protests, rallies, writie their city councilman/woman, Congressman/woman or their Senators demanding action. Hell, there are a huge number of Americans that don't even vote, and worse, are not even registered voters.
My own sister, who whines and moans about evrything is NOT and never has been, a registered voter at the age of 51 and I finally got my own mother registered as a Democrat four years ago and she was 75 at the time.
GET OFF YOUR A**ES, register, and vote. One thing this country does NOT need is another republican in the White House.
WAKE UP AMERICA!
Comment: Tony, what is really astonishing is that just because you read an article from a well known left-wing zealot in a highly suspect publication, you are so quick to believe every word.
YOU NEED TO WAKE UP AND STOP DRINKING THE KOOL-AID THAT DHALIA LITHWICK DISPENSES
Comment: Interesting article, Once many years ago a guy came up to me and started to describe in detail some new invention and how it was going to change our life and what it had already done etc. Now he clearly believed everything he was saying as hard cold fact. Problem is I had seen the same movie and he was stunned when I told him that what he was recounting as fact was a fictional movie.
That incident has stuck in my mind because it showed just how influential fictional media could be.
That Scalia who is supposed to be the great intellectual would be subject to the same illusions blows my mind.
I have long held the belief that Bush and probably most of his administration is living in some illusional state.
Could be the reason Bush doesn't read the newspapers.... it contradicts his belief system?, I think it may even influence how he walks, like a gunslinger always ready to draw, too many westerns perhaps?
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