Give them NOTHING. Lets see if they hand over Hamid Gul & Co to the US. My guess is no, and my other guess is that the ISI will be declared a terrorist agency...then the whole, rotted, stinking corpse that is PAKI-land. They truly have earned it, so don't shed any tears.
Air War
President Bush's plan to upgrade Pakistan's fleet of F-16s will damage relations with India and lead to a new arms race.
Jul 28, 2008 | Updated: 3:35 p.m. ET Jul 28, 2008
Member Comments
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Posted By: Trooper101st @ 12/22/2008 9:50:07 AM
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Posted By: H.nazar @ 12/12/2008 9:08:26 AM
As a Kashmiri, I want India and its 700,000 troops out of Kashmir. Mr Ganguly you are a columnist here but like many you are a hypocrite. Many readers and many of those who post comments here do not know the history of South Asia, and India's desire to dominate its neighbours. Coming back to your article it is sir a load of hogwash. Indian's and thir smpathisers cry wolve everytime Pakistan acquires any military system. Yet India bus vast quantiities from Russia, U.K and France.India's military is Four times greater than Pakistan's. Shiv sena is most probably proud of you. For those ignorant people who think Pakistan sponsors terrorism, I implore them to look closer to home.
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Posted By: H.nazar @ 08/29/2008 5:19:42 PM
I find this article very pro Indian, as India exploded a nuclear device in 1974. India sided with the Soviet Union in relation to the invasion of Afghanistan. The Pakistani government of President Zia requested the F-16's to protect its western front as the Soviets wanted to eventually to annex the Pakistani province of Baluchistan, so that it could ineffect threaten the worlds energy supplies. This did not occur because it was Pakistan which repeatededly fought Afghan and Soviet airforce planes. Pakistan was threatened on one side by the Soviets and on the other side by India, in this situation Pakistan was forced to develop a nuclear detterent to ward off any invasion. India has visions of grandeur in terms of being a regional power, this is whether Pakistan acquires or does not acquire any weapons to defend itself adequately. India and its apologists use any pretext to attack Pakistan. This article of yours is a fine example of hypocracy and double standards.
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Posted By: worldwidecitizen @ 08/03/2008 9:14:24 AM
Muf32chosen...completely brainwashed, Fluffy you're ignoring the facts......if human rights isn't a reason to invade just look at the US in iraq, Holly..if you want to see US troops get killed in this war with our weaponry then go ahead....another thing we're always claiming we want peace then stop selling weapons to countries that are quick to use them .....NAWAWIMOHAMAD....I completely agree with you.....you made some great points....1
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Posted By: worldwidecitizen @ 08/03/2008 9:10:40 AM
Hii
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Posted By: nawawimohamad @ 07/31/2008 10:22:41 PM
Sumit Ganguly, why can't you see the obvious? The US is purposely doing things to ensure that the region is unstable. Firstly because this will provide the "legitimate" excuse for the US intervention and control over the region anytime it wants. Secondly the US will always keep annoying and challenging Russia for a duel. Thirdly it is in the interest of the US to sustain its weapons industry. Fourthly, this will distract India from focusing on economic development and having some international standing, thus maintaining the status quo. Fifthly is because the US wants to win back the hearts of the Pakistan leaders and come under the US influence after the US air attacks and the Taliban debacle. Sumit ,the list can go on and on.... come on don't pretend to be naive!
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Posted By: muf32chosen @ 07/31/2008 10:05:49 AM
People seem to be not aware of the historic facts regarding the Indian attack on Pakistan in 1948, 1965, 1971, and 1998. On top of that, Pakistan was not the one that started the nuclear arms race. It was only after the indian nuclear test and threats to attack Pakistan that had the country test its nuclear weapons. If you think im bluffing, check the video tapes of May 1998. You can't deny the facts. Another point to be noted, I've been hearing about indian nationals blaming the Pakistani government for encouraging terrorism. Ofcourse they haven't thought about "shev sina", the terrorist hindu group that operates independently in India to kill muslims with the help of government. Not to forget the indian government's aid to the tamil tigers in sri lanka, the rebels in bangladesh and bhutan/nepal. Indian government only cries about Pakistan helping afghanis in 1980s because USA preferred Pak to help drive out soviet union. Ofcourse India wasn't happy because they wanted to get into Afghanistan and have their hands full of its resources. And the last thing for the author, you are disgracing the name of newsweek for writing such bias articles with lack of facts. If CIA issues a report about ISI helping the afghans, what do u think about all the reports in the past about "RA"'s operations in afghanistan igniting a civil war and helping tamil tigers to destabilize sri lanka?
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Posted By: muf32chosen @ 07/31/2008 9:46:24 AM
Seems to me that people need a history lesson. India is the one igniting an arms race, India attacked Pakistan in 1948, 1965, 1971 and 1998. It is evident from the authors words that he is not aware of the historic facts of the past. While blaming the Pakistani government for terrorism even though they "pretend" to fight againts it, the author forgets that there is a terrorist organization in India working independently, "Shiv Sena". Now everyone in India knows that shiv sena aim is to wipe off every muslim from the face of india and they are the one starting hindu-muslim riots. So if someone here is going to beleive that Pakistan is the root of terrorism, you need to hit up the library. And for Mr. Author, please consult historic books before writing such bias article. Thank You
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Posted By: peaceandprosperity @ 07/30/2008 4:55:39 PM
It is a known fact that Pakistan has always used all the sophisticated weapons supplied by United States against India. Pakistan is the 'Root of Terrorism'. 9/11 was perpetrated and logistically supported by Pakistan Army. How smart is it to give more munition to the same army who is against America. They can get all the funding also for spreading radical Islam and building mosques from the oil money of Saudi and Kuwait(so called friends of America). You do not want to make that mistake again and again to arm the enemy of USA.
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Posted By: Salvation 101 @ 07/30/2008 2:17:54 PM
Check out latest CIA reports about Pakistan and ISI. This is just the beginning. How long they can hide under disguise? It is very easy to provoke the sentiment of people instead of focusing on the underlying problem.
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Posted By: Passive Observer @ 07/30/2008 10:45:06 AM
I am sorry, Mr. Ganguly. Your views are not impartial. Both India and Pakistan are guilty of identical violations. Maybe one more than the other. There is however, one difference when it comes to human rights....In pakistan, Moslems are killing Moslems....In India, Hindus killing Moslems.
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Posted By: Passive Observer @ 07/30/2008 10:42:48 AM
I am sorry, Mr. Ganguly. Your views are not impartial. Both India and Pakistan are guilty of identical violations. Maybe one more than the other. There is however, one difference when it comes to human rights....In pakistan, Moslems are killing Moslems....In India, Hindus killing Moslems.
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Posted By: Holly Garfield @ 07/30/2008 7:29:04 AM
Numberone, you are right on the money. Also another comment about using A-10 Warthogs is off the mark. The Warthog is 100% pure battlefield offense. It's designed to take out tanks in an active battle. It took out many Scuds in Glf War 1. It flys low, slow and in direct line of fire. Now that is a plane India should worry about if Pakistan got it. The new 250 lb glider bombs are made to take out one small building from up to 40 miles or more and works on the F-16 and other bomber/attack aircraft that are designed for high altitude. That is why the new radars and ground communication equipment is needed. The pilots never need to come close to the target, and the civilians in neighboring buildings may not be harmed. Only a small commando ground force or single spotter is needed. I like the Military Channel.
This upgrade, once it is made public like now, will put more capability to fight Taliban and AlQaida in the hand of the Pakistani government. This will put pressure on the Pakistani government to take a more active role in the fight, since few Pakistani soldiers will need to go in harm's way. A single spotter or small undercover group can be very deadly. That's kind of using the terrorists' tactics against them, only with better weapons. And God favors the side with the biggest weapons.-
Posted By: Salvation 101 @ 07/30/2008 9:21:24 AM
IMHO, it is not the weapons available Pakistani govt but their inability to kill their own people for US, is the problem. How can Americans and the American govt just forget that IT was Pakistan because of which organizations like Taliban and Al-Quida exist. And now we are providing more weapons to such countries. Their reliability is in questions as it has been a period of unfruitful 7 years (almost) since The General made the deal with US to assist in elimination of Taliban and Al-Quida. If you still believe that new Pakistani govt, which involves founding members of Taliban as well as Al-Quida, is going to help us in the war on terror, then GOD is the only savior. After reading all these comments, one thought came to my mind "what if Pakistani govt wants ppl like this autor to write such articles to divert the main focus", why not?
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Posted By: numberone @ 07/30/2008 3:24:52 AM
Guys chill out with this India-Pakistan debate...
The point is that new radars on 25 year old planes will not start an arms race and that the author Ganguly is pretty stupid for saying so.
Anybody disagree with that? -
Posted By: worldwidecitizen @ 07/30/2008 1:40:39 AM
Fluffy come on one point,,,,,be realistic.....every point i made is valid and correct not most correct like you stated....you need to stop thinking with that "it's us against them attitude".....i'm sure pakistan could be a great country if you just allowed islam to be practised the way it was meant to be....instead you have mullahs brainwashing a substantial portion of the youth and the military still in control.......Another point I'm just pointing out the facts....you failed to post the reason why INDIA invaded eastern pakistan (bangladesh)....i wrote down the answer in my previous post. and my other points.......I am not prejudice against pakistan but if you look at the other posts on this...you can see the names are of muslum origin so I simply assumed they were muslum....Trust me I don't have to make pakistan look bad....they do it quite bad on their own....did you ever think that India developed nuclear weapons beacause of the constant fighting ....it worked for a while until KARGIL......oh by the way could you point to why pakistan invaded????? I would like to know so I don't paint pakistan "evil"...It seems Pakistan is so obsessed with India instead you should just focus on your country's economic woes....pakistan could've been a part of India and enjoy its economic prosperity but Jinnah refused. India has the second or third largest population of muslums in the world and they live there largely peacefully (excluding external forces trying to bring communal harm).. Now repeat thealphabet with me A,B,Ceeya....
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Posted By: fluffy II @ 07/30/2008 7:22:53 AM
To worldWideCitizen: Sorry ,every other point you made is not correct. I stated the facts, India invaded once , Pakistan invaded three times. They share the blame for starting wars with one another. No reason for invasion is justification for breaking international law. The violation of human rights in the former East Pakistan and the violation of human rights in Indian Kashmir are separate issues.
The point again to be made: The actions of both India and Pakistan are a mixed bag-some good and some bad for both. I refuse to accept your demonization of Pakistan.
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Posted By: Alain @ 07/30/2008 1:30:38 AM
Wow Wow! Fluffy. A raw nerve there? Only a Pakistani would start this Hindu-Muslim thing here. That is the main problem with the fundamentalist psyche. You guys see everyone through a prism of religion. There are more important things in life than what a book that tells you to hate others and kill yourself rather than to live and love others. India, I believe has more muslims than Pakistan and by and large are a peaceful lot. It is only the uneducated and criminal elements who do the mischief on ISI's command. Get a life!
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Posted By: fluffy II @ 07/30/2008 6:48:43 AM
Alain: You have got it wrong. You are very prejudiced and ignorant to assume that everyone who disagrees with the thrust of this article is Muslim and Pakistani. Not only are you insulting to that ethnic group and religion, you are looking at the world through a unidimensional prism.
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Posted By: fluffy II @ 07/29/2008 11:12:58 PM
To WorldWideCitizen: Yes, I will concede to you one of your points, where you are most correct. That is, a country doesn't have to have a perfect record on human rights to be a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council. All the current members have some abuses of human rights on record.
Both India and Pakistan are neither absolved form blame on that count.
I stand corrected. -
Posted By: fluffy II @ 07/29/2008 11:01:01 PM
To WorldWideCitizen: Cold facts: Pakistan invaded India in Kashmir in 1948, 1965 and 1999. India invaded Pakistan in East Pakistan i n 1971. It is the media, many times, including the author of this article, which paints Pakistan as evil and India as angelic. They are not twins literally, just sometimes depicted that way.
India began the nuclear arms race in 1974 with its atomic explosion. Pakistan became alarmed and developed its own nuclear weapons. There are other people in this world who care about the world situation besides "Pakistanis and Muslims...trying to drum -up support against this author and India", as you so prejudiciously put it.
And the bottom line is both India and Pakistan have their good points and bad points-like all other entities in life! So: DO NOT TRY TO PAINT PAKISTAN AS THE CENTER OF ALL EVIL TO ALL PEOPLE- IT IS NOT! -
Posted By: billtjr53 @ 07/29/2008 10:45:38 PM
Bush continues to show how much of a dumb a_ _ idiot he is!!! He will not admit to mistakes or learn from them.
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Posted By: worldwidecitizen @ 07/29/2008 10:24:04 PM
What you failt orealize is look at the facts in history.....pakistan started each and every time when it provoked and invaded India......most recently KARGIl.....did you ALL FORGET THAT OR DO YOU BELIEVE INDIA STARTED THIS? sECONDLY, India invaded and made bangaldesh independent after their people were being slaughtered by the thousands by Pakistani armed forces from Western Pakistan (present day pakistan)....get your facts straight.....India and pakistan are in no shape "twins" by any means......As far as how Pakistan is a threat is quite simple, even before nuclear weapons, it has has also provoked a largely peaceful neighbor claiming KASHMIR as the cause; if that was the real concern then why is pakistan allowing civilians to settle in the POK when india doesn't allow civilians from other states in its own country to do so ...in reality terrorist attacks have shifted the demographic in indian occupied kashmir.......Inida is not arming itself against pakistan, its been doing so because of China.....all you guys need to read the "PEARL OF STRINGS STRATEGY"......there are human rihts violations committed against pakistani civilians everyday......pakistan could tremendously help with the human rights situation in India by stopping the ISI from committing terrorist attacks in India......which in turn causes the population to vent frustations....another thing if human rights was a major issue that gives you the right to be included into the UN security council.....then plz point to me one country on it that hasn't committed gross human right violations its history..you may forgive the past but you can never forget the past......a perfect and huge example is china......from what I see on this thread is pakistani's or muslums tryin to drum up support against this author and against India.....what many people don't relalize is that China supplied M-11 ballistic missiles to Pakistan yet the world turned a blind eye (how would the US feel if Cuba got it missles or even Mexico was given arms by the russians during the Cold War. Another thing is for every military weapon or tech that goes to Pakistan, at least one is going to China. This may not be the latest weapons, but it gives an adversary a lot of info about our capabilites and allows them to develop countermeasures......The bottom line is that pakistan hasn't been a great friend in the war on terror.....If the current afghan gov't under karzai states that pakistan is trouble shouldn't we take his word a little seriously (and hs's muslum by the way).
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Posted By: ghostcommander @ 07/29/2008 9:02:01 PM
The Corrupt and incompetent mis-administration of cheney and bush have already given Musharraf $10,800,000,000 and the USA has not5hing to show for it, the Taliban are stronger now than they were in 2002. Where did all the money go? Does the Pakistan intelligence service, the ISI, still control the Taliban they created. Musharraf is corrupt, Karzai is corrupt, and bush is corrupt. Get it?
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Posted By: Salvation 101 @ 07/29/2008 5:56:52 PM
Al-Quida and Taliban are the hidden facets of Pakistan. Pakistan being one of the only three countries that recognized Taliban regime in Afghanistan, has fostered and nurtured them from the inception. Organizations like these are used by the terrorists in disguise to create problems and destroy the peace from rest of the world. This is not hidden from American government or the whole world. It is a shame for American government to squander the tax payer's money by providing aid to Pakistan and other terrorists in disguise. It is pretty evident from the DEAL General made with US in 2001. Several billion dollars in so called AID to eliminate or kill their own brainchild. I wonder how much of that money has been used against our military in Afghanistan as well as Iraq. It is the fear of Pakistan seeking support from China (which is eager to provide), has forced US to provide generous aid to Pakistan (IMHO, and I don't think any one would disagree). But how long we are going to keep fooling ourselves?
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Posted By: Ron Paul For Pope @ 07/29/2008 2:32:26 PM
The U.S should provide the Pakistanis with A-10 Warthogs -- ground support only, but damn good at it. No capability for dogfighting with an air-superiority aircraft.
If the Pakistanis won't take them, then we know their intentions are against India, and that they're not serious about securing the western provinces. -
Posted By: mujnoon01 @ 07/29/2008 11:36:41 AM
The Indians writers are always very negitive about Pakistan and they have not accepted the fact that Pakistan is a countrty . Sumit please be positive I know you are a HINDU , its your religious duty to be a enemy of the Muslims and the Pakistanis.
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Posted By: rhmayo @ 08/01/2008 11:47:29 AM
Indians would be happy if pakistan and pakistanis focused their energies on the ME and stayed there. Most indian, India don;t give a rats ass about Pakistan or its people and would be happy if its jealousy l was directed somewhere else. The Hindu Muslim divide has more proponents in Pakistan than the general population in Indai where they are more interested in the economy doing well than dealing with Pakistan and its shennanigans
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Posted By: rhmayo @ 08/01/2008 11:40:20 AM
India would be happy if Pakistan looks to the ME and most Indians don't give a rats ass about Pakistan or pakistanis or muslims in a general sense. For India pakistan is a nuisance that one has to live with and the hindu muslim divide is more in the pakistani mind than the average indian.
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Posted By: fluffy II @ 07/29/2008 12:11:56 PM
I am asking you please, as a friend of both India and Pakistan, to refrain from generalizing and name-calling. Please.
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Posted By: Alain @ 07/29/2008 10:34:48 AM
Again all this ranting about equal love to both Pakistan and India!! The truth is that Pakistan is a failed state that is the epicenter of terrorism. Musharraf realized the consequences that would follow after 9/11 and quickly decided to put on an act by 'opposing' the Taliban. I remember the Indian Foreign Minister's comments then- "... if the US has friends like Pakistan, God help them...". The Pakistanis have been hoodwinking the American government and the American people by purposely dragging their feet on their 'fight' on terrorism.The Indian nukes had nothing to do with Pakistan. They are a dterent ahainst China which India considers a bigger threat. If the Pakistani leaders were concerned about its people, they would ask for economic aid not weopon delivery systems. Shame on Bush! Shame on the Pakistani government!
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Posted By: fluffy II @ 07/29/2008 11:03:54 AM
The issue here is about equality and equal treatment. Most of the disputes in the world come down to unequal treatment of individuals or countries. Many Muslims feel they are not being treated fairly by the rest of the world community, just as American minorities have felt they were not being treated fairly by the American establishment.
For instance some say we should favor India because it has a population of 1 billion people and downgrade Pakistan having a population of only 165 million. Well, the U.S. shows about equal importance to Japan, with 150 million people, as we do to China, 1.3 billion. How about the U.K.,with under 100 million, or France, with about the same, we accord them tremendous importance. It is the glaring inconsistencies and unequal treatments that are causing alot of conflict and resentment in the world.
Empowering people helps to cause them to be more responsible. We've seen it happen with China. We've seen it happen with South Africa.
As a starter, we should nominate both India and Pakistan for permanent seats on the U.N. Security Council. China began its stint on that body as a not very stable country, it was not a perfect situation, and the sky didn't fall. My bet is that Pakistanis would look-up and take notice, feel a strong sense of worth and pride, and have no choice but to become more a responsible nation, feeling more valued by the international community and the U.S., as the first and only Muslim nation on the Security Council. It is the feeling of appreciation that moves mountains. The world community should try this approach-I think it would help the cause of peace quite a bit.
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Posted By: pwilso24 @ 07/29/2008 10:33:02 AM
Good post by Holly on the upgraded F16 capability. It looks like the capability is more suited to anti-terrorism-directed air strikes than against India. I nevertheless agree with many posters that Pakistan is a failed state, and our continued aid both economic and military needs to be carefully reviewed and better directed to anti-terrorism activities.
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Posted By: ChristianAmerican @ 07/29/2008 9:46:27 AM
As an Indian, it is no surprising that Mr. Ganguly ranted against Pakistan and the US using distorted information and lies. Which "human right organizations" that worried an attack by Pakistan against India because of 40 new F-16 jets it aquired from the U.S.? The "arm race" between India and Pakistan was (and still is) exisitng before the jets were delivered. The reason that Pakistan developed an atomic bomb is because of indian 1972 testing of "nuclear device," not the so-called arm race attributed to the sale of F-16 to Pakistan. The ethno-centric views of Mr. Ganguly tarnish his reputation (if he ever had) and jeopardize his non-tenure track positionin Indiana University.
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Posted By: junkmail6 @ 07/29/2008 9:16:33 AM
I simply want to second the comment by Trooper101st. Pakistan's new democratic government is more anti-US than the previous military dictatorship. Why are we still trying to buy their support? Will their F-16's *ever* drop a bomb within their own borders? Why would they start now? It's time to root out Al Qaeda once and for all.
As far as India, the US should be making every effort to build bridges with that country. They are a true democracy, and they face the same challenges we do in dealing with religious extremists.
Bush has fallen in with the Cold War dinosaurs. My only consolation is that it *might* end if Obama wins the election. Now I have to go wash my keyboard out with soap for openly supporting a Democrat.-
Posted By: Trooper101st @ 09/11/2008 8:49:22 AM
JUNKMAIL has asked a very important and valid question. Since June the camps in the tribal belt grew from 30 to 157. Why hasn't the P-stani AF dropped 1 bomb on ANY of those camps? Coz thier in on it, and want the Block-50 targeting system for a war with INDIA. Bush has been duped again. Remember his "friend" Vladimir? Looked right into his eyes...and saw? He will go down as 1 of the worst CINC's in history. Go ahead Dumya, sell that package to a potential enemy...when the strike packages are put together, there will be F-22's and F-15's flying cover, if the P-stani's send up thier fighters, LITE 'EM UP! No more letting them dictate how we defend our FOB's and the troops that man them. Take the fight to them.
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Posted By: Trooper101st @ 07/29/2008 7:51:49 AM
Bush&Co continue to behave like the Keystone Cops, they bungle every big decision. The p-stani's are stringing us along while they aid and shelter T-ban/AQ figures. They are on the way to becoming a moslem theocracy, and we still throw taxpayer money at them. You want to really hit the T-ban/AQ with a vicious body blow? Then strike thier 100+ camps in N&S Waziristan, air-assault into the area with a 5,000 man BCT and clean up wats left. Keep hitting them in Pakistan until they are hurt bad. Tell the 2 faced P-stani's to stay out the way. The US must look so foolish to these people. Back India, we have a common enemy. Don't blow it.
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Posted By: fluffy II @ 07/29/2008 9:52:48 AM
Teopper101st: The U.S. should be "backing" both India and Pakistan and it can. It shouldn't be a question of one or the other. We are trying to fight terrorism with a coalition of countries. If we go fully against Pakistan it will complete the circuit of opposing 95% of the major Muslim countries: Pakistan and by extension, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, some Central Asian countries, possibly Turkey, Iran, some North African countries,with a few more will be going to Pakistan's side. We would begin with starting a clash of civilizations. How ridiculous it would be to fight Islamic terrorism and turn against one of the premier Muslim countries in the world, Pakistan, who is terribly threatened by this terrorism. Yes, things there are not perfect, but we should put up with some ambiguity and keep Pakistan (and India) on board in the fight against international terrorism.
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Posted By: Trooper101st @ 09/11/2008 8:57:33 AM
Fluffy, that war has started already. Thier goal is an ISLAMIC CALIPHATE stretching from Bali to Barcelona. Iam advocating the bombing of the terror training camps that now dot the map of the tribal areas. I have spent 30 mos total in A-stan, and the "safe havens" in P-stan are the problem. We make a move, the P-stani's tell the hadji's wat we are doing, where we are headed, and how many. This does NOT go over well with the guys who pound the ground, drive thier Humvees outside the wire etc. The clash of religions, civilizations has been going on, we didn't realize it until 9/11
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Posted By: Holly Garfield @ 07/29/2008 7:36:54 AM
I found the information on the upgrades. The upgrades are for ground communication, new radar (25 year old radar in the planes) and better targeting for ground attack precision guided munitions. There are no new weapons systems or air to air capabilities. The upgrades allow for more accurate and timely ground attack. This minimizes the chance of collateral damage and helps ground forces confirm the target is actually where the bombs are dropped when they are dropped. I can't picture this being a significant threat to India, since it is primarily useful on isolated, geurilla type targets. This adds little to the capabilites of the F-16 in a military to military assault or air to air combat. In a military assault the targets are either known ahead of time or patently obvious.
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Posted By: Trooper101st @ 09/11/2008 9:10:11 AM
Holly, you are a little misinformed. This system will allow a JTAC to guide PGM's to an intended target. A 4 ship flight of F-16's, armed with 8,000lbs of PGM;s can smash an armored column easily. Or, it can hit a bunker from 15,000 feet. Laze the target and watch the fireworks. This is about the conflict w/ INDIA.
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Posted By: ApMasterSite @ 07/29/2008 7:35:18 AM
And India has never Invaded a country in the past 1000 years. India conquered China without sending a single solider with Buddhism. All the past wars had been started by Pakistan and finished by India. India has a long record of self-defense, non-proliferation and non-aggressiveness.
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Posted By: ApMasterSite @ 07/29/2008 7:33:09 AM
Plus, since the creation of Pakistan, the Americans have not helped India at all. They had been more busy funding Pakistan and look how well Pakistan turned out. Basically the terrorists are in control in Pakistan.
India meanwhile was forced to ally with Soviet Union (even though India declared itself non-allied) for arms and supplies to -
Posted By: ApMasterSite @ 07/29/2008 7:31:40 AM
You are correct. In the past, US has lead to the arms race that engulfed South Asia. During the Bangladeshi war of independence, America was going to get involved on behalf of Pakistan if it had not been for the Soviet Nuclear Subs that were deployed as a warning to the Americans to stay out of India. Since the 70s, American sanctions have been placed on India
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Posted By: ApMasterSite @ 07/29/2008 7:30:53 AM
You are correct. In the past, US has lead to the arms race that engulfed South Asia. During the Bangladeshi war of independence, America was going to get involved on behalf of Pakistan if it had not been for the Soviet Nuclear Subs that were deployed as a warning to the Americans to stay out of India. Since the 70s, American sanctions have been placed on India
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Posted By: Holly Garfield @ 07/29/2008 7:08:46 AM
I am still waiting for information posted here to explain what the upgrades are and how they are either a threat to India or a help in fighting Taliban/AlQaida. I am vaguely familiar with the F-16 and find that there are upgrades that do nothing more than make the aircraft more serviceable, reliable and pilot-friendly. The plane is old enough that simply getting spare parts for older versions can be a problem. I see the author's opinion, but no facts on the upgrades to back it up. Unless you are adding nuclear delivery capability that doesn't currently exist I have a hard time picturing any upgrade of 40 F/A aircraft being a significant added threat to a country the size of India.
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Posted By: fluffy II @ 07/29/2008 5:42:55 AM
To Sumit Ganguly: your argument that the U.S. plan to upgrade Pakistan's fleet of F-16's will lead to an arm's is a very shaky argument. Facts tell the opposite-that it is military acquisitions by India that are fueling an arms race.
But look, I am neither Indian nor Pakistani. I have friends from both countries and I love them. It is also my experience that these Indian friends love these Pakistani friends and visa versa.
Why don't you try to ease some of your anti-Pakistani feelings and visit Pakistan. Meet the people there. (Perhaps you have, I don't know). I think you will might end-up feeling that they are descent human beings just like you and I. And perhaps you might gain some more insight into their feelings toward India which is surprisingly positive. -
Posted By: lowcortisol @ 07/29/2008 3:06:37 AM
skinny - how much has the US spent to 'decimate' Al-Queda? close to one trillion, right?
stop being part of the problem... stop teaching our kids to hate. especially their own and ilk. it's almost easier to hate what we know and what is close to us then what we are unaccostomed to.
hate never bought you a gallon of gas. wanna do something about it? vote. -
Posted By: skimmy @ 07/29/2008 2:52:57 AM
If Pakistan wanted to decimate Al-Quida, with $10 billion, they should have by now. But with Al-Quida gone, there will be no use of Pakistan for us. So, the hunt continues without absolutely any result. The funds allocated for fighting terror are diverted to create nuclear weapons, train terrorists, fill personal bank accounts etc. Iraq is one big leaky bucket and now this one too. Why am I paying so much for gasolene and other commodities and my country is leaking tax money in all kinds of places.
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Posted By: lowcortisol @ 07/29/2008 2:42:46 AM
India is not a bad country. Neither is Pakistan.
In fact - they have been a great ally to the US whenever needed... and then discarded.
But how many Pro-India and anti-Pakistan articles can this guy write in a row? Now, that is becoming obvious.
I think we all want both countries to succeed and prosper. Prosperity brings peace like no substitute.
You would think that it would be a given for Pakistan's ground troops to have more air support when fighting on the Afghanistan border against the Taliban and Al-Queda.
People are people... and, in Pakistan and India, the similarities between the people is remarkable. Governments are who we continue to point our fingers at. Even in this country, the people have plead, bargained and begged to leave Iraq but our Governing body insists on not listening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SypeZjeOrY4
I personally don't want India bashing... but, why continue to demonize a country that is doing it's best to ally to our foreign policy?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25886984/ -
Posted By: skimmy @ 07/29/2008 2:26:40 AM
Pakistan has been sponsoring terrorism since ages. For starters, Pakistan was the sole guardian angel of Taliban when the whole world declared it a terrorist organization. Even today Pakistan continues to fund this terrorist organization. the guy who masterminded deadly Mumbai bomb blasts has found shelter in Pakistan. Pakistanis have become so jealous of India's economic and political success that they advocate India as a bad country at every opportunity. But, now the whole world knows the truth.
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Posted By: Alain @ 07/29/2008 2:17:57 AM
It's amzing how fast and harshly these 'Americans' are admonishing Ganguly. These are Pakistanis in US who have for years been brainwashed in their native Pakistan into believing that everything about India is bad. The Pakistani leaders starting with Jinnah created the Indian boogeyman that all the following leaders have used with skill to keep the population in line. These same Pakistanis can easily turn on the US and criticize it with content when it serves their purpose. These are the 'silent enemies within' who do not respect western values and continue to sit on the fence between the Western opportunities and Islamic ambitions. How many of these guys have criticized their mullahs for all the lies about the US and the Western world?
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Posted By: skimmy @ 07/29/2008 2:17:02 AM
For god's sake stop this thread. The argument is clear. Pakistan is a failed state, almost in the brink of breakdown, ruled by the dreaded ISI. India is a large, democratic, enterprising country. In India all decisions undergo a democratic process and has never gone to war unprovoked. India is more interested in protecting its people and territory and growing its economy than war or any distructive activity.
If Americans are looking for the epicenter of Global Terrorism, it is in Pakistan and no need to look elsewhere wasting your energies. Your tax money is being wasted funding Pakistan's jihadi, nuclear and domestic war programs instead of so called war on terror, because Pakistan is the terrorist state itself. It is commiting terrorism on Indian and Afgan soil. Instead of punishing this country Bush wants to gift it F16 toys. Thats the plain truth. -
Posted By: skimmy @ 07/29/2008 2:15:50 AM
For god's sake stop this thread. The argument is clear. Pakistan is a failed state, almost in the brink of breakdown, ruled by the dreaded ISI. India is a large, democratic, enterprising country. In India all decisions undergo a democratic process and has never gone to war unprovoked. India is more interested in protecting its people and territory and growing its economy than war or any distructive activity.
If Americans are looking for the epicenter of Global Terrorism, its in Pakistan and no need to look elsewhere wasting your energies. Your tax money is being wasted funding Pakistan's jihadi, nuclear and war programs instead of so called war on terror, because Pakistan is the terrorist state itself. It is commiting terrorism on Indian and Afgan soil. Instead of punishing this country Bush wants to gift it F16 toys. Thats the plain truth.-
Posted By: berenger @ 07/31/2008 8:36:55 PM
or the "plane" truth. I think the US should bolster the peace process instead of modernizing the Pakistani military. Our money is better spent on other things.
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Posted By: lowcortisol @ 07/29/2008 1:43:20 AM
Sumit Gangily is a biased ???spook??? on the payroll of the CIA...
he continues to just drum up more reasons to gain sympathy for India and demonize Pakistan to allow us to violate Pakistan's sovereignty in case we need to continue with our drone attacks on Pakistan???s border.
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002125.html
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050912/edit.htm#6
be a real patriot Mr. Ganguly - a real American and stop being an Indian nationalist
Shame on you Newsweek! and, MSNBC and GE! -
Posted By: Alain @ 07/29/2008 1:42:22 AM
Wow! It starts all over again. It is quite evident now that Pakistan is no ally of US. The Pakistanis have been playing the Americans since 9/11. The Bush adminstration with all its competency has done it again. India does not and has never wanted a confrontation with it's neighbors. With its vast population, all Indian leaders have long understood that economic progress is the only answer to keeping the country intact. They understand that a war with Pakistan will create more problems than solve them. Pakistani generals and admirals have for years used the US aid to first fight the Soviets and then the Taliban to buy those mansions in Florida and Puerto Rico. Reagan at least had a plan without oversight, the Bushies have no policy or plan in place. It almost appears that they are making a mess for the Democrats to clean up after November.
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Posted By: numberone @ 07/29/2008 1:32:06 AM
Absolutely unbelievable! Sumit Ganguly should be fired for such an ill-researched and factually incorrect piece! Are the Newsweek editors on vacation?
India is one of the LARGEST spenders on arms
India has one of the largest army/airforce in the WORLD
India has already been offered HUNDREDS of better planes by the US (F 18s)
India is currently shopping for HUNDREDS of NEW planes
Pakistan???s so called clandestine nuclear program was only started after India TEST EXPLODED A NUCLEAR BOMB in the 1970s!!!!!
I think the arms race was started long ago by India. How can the author, a ???professor???, make the argument that new radars on 25 year old planes are a threat? What a joke??? This guy must be on the payroll of India???s various lobbying firms.
Shame on Newsweek for printing such garbage. -
Posted By: Azizkhan @ 07/29/2008 12:45:51 AM
Unfortunately,the author is incapable of giving a balaced view regarding India and Pakistan and he is using this publication to put forth Indian Propoganda.
Just is case he does not remember,India is the biggest arms buyer in the world and they don,t need another exscuse to buy more. In additin,The USA has offered a lot more F 16s, to India,if they are interested. -
Posted By: u_farooq @ 07/29/2008 12:36:50 AM
Mr Ganguly, How about the Indian "civil" nuclear cooperation with US? Wouldn't that start a nuclear arm race in the region? Why didn't we see an article from you about that if you are genuinely interested in preventing arm race between Pakistan and India.
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Posted By: u_farooq @ 07/29/2008 12:33:51 AM
Mr Ganguly, How about Indian "civil" nuclear cooperation with US? Wouldn't it start a new nuclear arm race? Why didn't we see an article from you about that if you are genuinely concern about the arm conflict between Pakistan and India.
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Posted By: Ron Paul For Pope @ 07/28/2008 10:41:47 PM
Pakistan is preparing for the day that the United States is no longer its sugar daddy. What America won't do, China will only too gladly do. It will provide as much armament as Pakistan wants, for free, and without condition.
How better to prepare for an invasion than to bog the Indian army down in Kashmir?
No, let the Pakistanis have their F-16's. They're junk, anyway, by today's standards. It's better to have Pakistan wedded to an inconstant partner such as the U.S., rather than an overeager one like China. -
Posted By: Holly Garfield @ 07/28/2008 10:09:34 PM
I have some questions as to the purpose of upgrading F-16s and how that will assist the war on the Taliban and AlQaida. How will these upgrades improve Pakistan's security against terrorism? How will these upgrades affect Pakistan's offensive capability against India? The US has air assets along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border, manned and unmanned. The US probably has more than enough air capability in the border area to provide for the same protection/observation/interdiction capability as the upgrades could provide. This is only a guess.
How about we agree to the upgrades provided that we also supply India with 40 F-16s with the same upgrades? How about offering India 60 F-16s with the 40 Pakistani upgrades, or call off both offers? I am not for either India or Pakistan. I am for looking at a way of at least not increasing the military capability either India or Pakistan. We need to be 'reverse Godfathers' and make Pakistan an offer they can't accept. Both countries recently joined the nuclear club. We dont need amy more military capabilities in the area.-
Posted By: Trooper101st @ 09/11/2008 9:04:02 AM
This upgrade is a targeting system that the P-stani's want in thier next war with India. I would not give them ANYTHING! Why haven't they used any of thier F-16's to bomb the 157 or so camps in the tribal belt? Coz they are not going to destroy something THEY created. I have done 30 months in A-stan, and there is no way the P-stani's did not know wat was going on. They are in on it.
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Posted By: fluffy II @ 07/28/2008 4:51:26 PM
There's always that same refrain: India and Pakistan are twins with India being the "angelic" twin while Pakistan is the "evil" twin...Get off it! India has done it's share of invading: remember 1971? India had thousands of soldiers in the erstwhile East Pakistan first- there's no doubt about that. Both countries have their good and bad points.
This author, Sumit Ganguly, is incapable of balanced reporting when it comes to India and Pakistan.
If India wants to be accepted as a great power and be on the U.N. Security Council , it should come to terms with its human rights violations in Kashmir.
The fact is, both countries should get off their fannies and setttle the Kashmir dispute once and for all, because the non-settlement of that very dangerous dispute also affects the peace and security of the entire world.-
Posted By: worldwidecitizen @ 07/29/2008 10:23:49 PM
What you failt orealize is look at the facts in history.....pakistan started each and every time when it provoked and invaded India......most recently KARGIl.....did you ALL FORGET THAT OR DO YOU BELIEVE INDIA STARTED THIS? sECONDLY, India invaded and made bangaldesh independent after their people were being slaughtered by the thousands by Pakistani armed forces from Western Pakistan (present day pakistan)....get your facts straight.....India and pakistan are in no shape "twins" by any means......As far as how Pakistan is a threat is quite simple, even before nuclear weapons, it has has also provoked a largely peaceful neighbor claiming KASHMIR as the cause; if that was the real concern then why is pakistan allowing civilians to settle in the POK when india doesn't allow civilians from other states in its own country to do so ...in reality terrorist attacks have shifted the demographic in indian occupied kashmir.......Inida is not arming itself against pakistan, its been doing so because of China.....all you guys need to read the "PEARL OF STRINGS STRATEGY"......there are human rihts violations committed against pakistani civilians everyday......pakistan could tremendously help with the human rights situation in India by stopping the ISI from committing terrorist attacks in India......which in turn causes the population to vent frustations....another thing if human rights was a major issue that gives you the right to be included into the UN security council.....then plz point to me one country on it that hasn't committed gross human right violations its history..you may forgive the past but you can never forget the past......a perfect and huge example is china......from what I see on this thread is pakistani's or muslums tryin to drum up support against this author and against India.....what many people don't relalize is that China supplied M-11 ballistic missiles to Pakistan yet the world turned a blind eye (how would the US feel if Cuba got it missles or even Mexico was given arms by the russians during the Cold War. Another thing is for every military weapon or tech that goes to Pakistan, at least one is going to China. This may not be the latest weapons, but it gives an adversary a lot of info about our capabilites and allows them to develop countermeasures......The bottom line is that pakistan hasn't been a great friend in the war on terror.....If the current afghan gov't under karzai states that pakistan is trouble shouldn't we take his word a little seriously (and hs's muslum by the way).
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