MIDDLE EAST

Jerusalem Up Against the Wall

Israel's separation barrier has blocked West Bank bombers, but may be creating a new threat within.

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  • Posted By: GirlAroundTheCorner @ 02/25/2009 3:44:16 PM

    Surprise, Surprise - new player on the field - guys, let's meet THE WORLD-WIDE CALIPHATE!
    in their own voices - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg
    in more details - http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2107

    You all have a bright future in the CALIPHATE!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY
    Amnesty International estimates that over 130 million women worldwide have been affected
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwlW9Qq_zEc&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p570nGshue0&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO_vFuzPJvc

  • Posted By: Huarodian @ 12/30/2008 10:07:45 AM

    No one has ever succeeded by using suppression on other communities or on your own people, Example Hitler,Stalin, Idi-Amin or anybody else. History shows these methods are primitive, cruel and non effective, If Israelis think they will succeed then GOD bless them .

  • Posted By: Shirin @ 12/29/2008 8:27:52 AM

    POOOOOOOR JEWS, alsways crying. Let's face it , the Jews are the Nazis.

  • Posted By: achtung @ 09/21/2008 10:03:40 AM

    His brother will continue to hold his job which is provided by "evil" Zionist Jews, wife's pregnant, so she'll get more social benefits from the "evil" Jewish Zionist goverment - but all Newsweek cares about is about the status of their ILLEGALY BUILT house, and for "religious freedom" for Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

  • Posted By: rmisrahi @ 08/14/2008 10:07:40 AM

    Peraino has already his narrative set, and it won't change.

    When a terrorist strikes Jerusalem with a bulldozer, his story is not about the woman who threw her baby out the car window before being crushed to death. It's about the terrorist's aspirations and frustrations.

    I was born in Mexico, and I wonder what he'd have to say if Mexicans crossed the border -to one of the states that used to belong to Mexico- and started crushing people to death out of personal frustrations. Will he explain that in terms of the US inability to make them more "docile" (a term he likes to use regarding Palestinians) by increasing their standard of living? I know many Mexicans that would like to have $50K to buy a house, not the $100K the Caterpillar terrorist needed.

    Peraino has a story he wants to tell, and he will spin the events to fit them in it. Whatever happened to HONEST swithout an agenda?

  • Posted By: kbalu_1 @ 08/09/2008 9:13:34 AM

    i am intersted middle east news.
    jerusalem is tha good faithful city and place.

  • Posted By: RealSkinsAren'tRacist @ 08/08/2008 7:03:36 AM

    Have any of you heard of germans commiting Telepathic Anti Semite hate crimes?

    • Posted By: joe_mama @ 08/08/2008 7:39:56 AM

      *waves hand*
      These aren't the droids--err... the Anti-Semites you seek

      *waves hand*
      You can go about your business

      *waves hand*
      Thank you, please move along.

  • Posted By: RealSkinsAren'tRacist @ 08/08/2008 7:02:34 AM

    Have you guys heard of telepathic anti semitism in Germany?

  • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/07/2008 4:20:00 PM

    To everyone I've been involved in discussion with on this thread - I'm out. I have nothing to gain from getting drawn into this pointless "us against them" conflict. If I were to go to the Middle East, with heritage from both Russia's Jewish population and from Lebanon, neither side would see me as anything but the enemy. It's sad, because combatants on both sides are, quite literally, my distant cousins, but there is nothing to be done about it now.

    I'm going to listen to those who I've talked to who advise me to leave the whole thing alone - "they've been fighting over that patch of desert for thousands of years" is the way my support network has described it - and not become collateral damage in this fight.

    But I do want to express this sentiment - peace be unto you all, if you can find it.

    • Posted By: joe_mama @ 08/07/2008 7:00:42 PM

      Geez dude, lighten up....

      It's an internet discussion board, for goodness sakes, who were you trying to impress?

      JM

  • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 08/04/2008 7:55:39 PM

    Cry me a river. You were the one that kicked from the 20 yd-line by inferring that I was ''full of sh.t''. An ad hominum attack. Thus whining serves no useful purpose. This said,WIKIPEDIA is hardly the source of what can be construed as ''impartial'' reference,which is why I rarely refer to it. To be sure,IRGUN and MACCABEE terror organs had existed at the time of the formative years of the new Jewish state. However,they are long past,and do not exist in any present form. Add to this,and it is not the purpose of Israels IDF to deliberately seek out victims in other nations acting in a terrorist manner[i.e.LOCKERBIE,KHOBAR,9/11,WTC I,USS COLE[whose planner,al-Masri, was possibly killed this weekend in Pakistan],ACHILLE LAURO,MUNICH,and several other outrages perpetrated by either Iranians,Arabs,or Palestinians]. Pass to Rabin,and one assassin does not a national movement make. The PLO,FATAH,and HAMAS,are literal nationalist movements based in terror in which factions argue for further bloodshed,or going legit. Thus far,bloodshed carries the hour.

    • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/05/2008 3:10:19 AM

      You're right; I should have left that out, it was inflammatory and only weakened my argument. I'm not sure what you mean by "Pass to Rabin" - but "one assassin does not a national movement make" is inaccurate. There's a whole contingent of right-wing Israelis that advocate and accept violence - otherwise you wouldn't see posters like this calling for the release of his assassin. Whether or not you believe in Wiki, this picture is not a fake.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Yigal_Amir_Poster.jpg

      And as far as Wikipedia goes, you demonstrate another logical fallacy by assuming that everything in Wiki is unreliable because there are portions of dubious material. You want to have that debate, look at the actions of the Mossad that I linked to and tell me whether or not each one is reliable. One I find particularly revealing is Operation Plumbat - which is sourced to external and reliable links outside Wiki. A German military boat containing 200 TONS of yellowcake uranium (uranium oxide) - the same kind of uranium used in the false accusations against Iraq - went missing at sea and turned up later in Turkey without its cargo. The uranium had been transferred to an Israeli freighter and was later used to create Israeli nuclear weapons.

      How on Earth can you claim that the state of Israel is trustworthy on this matter when they advocated war with Iraq on grounds of possession of yellowcake uranium that have NEVER been proven, yet secretly TOOK POSSESSION of the same thing during a clandestine naval operation? (And if you pull out the "buried in the sands of Syria" argument, my response is going to be, "go ahead and find them for me".) Tto advocate war with another state on false pretexts when *your own state* has actually DONE what you are accusing the enemy state is beyond trustworthy - it borders on outright malice and evil.

      (You can find an academic source of this information here - http://intellit.muskingum.edu/israel_folder/israelplumbat.html.)

      I personally am far more afraid of Israel than I am of Palestine, Iraq, or Iran. Israel hasn't even publicly admitted to its nuclear program - but it's an open secret. I don't trust a state at all that has enough weapons to blow up a continent, got them under *clandestine pretenses*, and yet won't even admit to possessing them.

      I don't deny the existence of the incidents you mentioned and never have. And I will stop defending Iran, for the most part - they have plenty of evidence of terror operations supported by their government as well, as many as the U.S. or Israel does proportionately, I'm sure. But the main point of my argument is that Israel's criticisms of its opponents are hypocritical in the extreme. I want you to tell me exactly how accusing an opponent of the same crime they themselves are committing in terms of clandestine acquisition of weapons of mass destruction is not hypocritical and evil beyond words.

      • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 08/05/2008 11:54:27 AM

        You are confused. Three weeks ago,IAEA inspectors began removing yellowcake uranium from a facility north of Baghdad that they were careful to explain came from the 1980s-early 1990s prior to the First Gulf War[and were thus not a portion of the hotly debated ''Niger yellowcake''].
        Yet the fact remains that during the period of the 1980s when IDF aircraft attacked the Iraqi facility-city of Ossiraq,the Iraqs were most certainly working on a nuclear weapons program. Further,the actions of Saddam during the First Gulf War in launching missles at civilian targets in Israel-proper[within the Mandate borders],proved that the man,like Ahmedinjezad of Iran,was unstable enough to pose enough of a threat to use such weapons had they come into his possession. As it now stands,the Iranian SHAHAB series rocket can easily hit targets in Israel. And they are ,like Saddam in the 1980s ,openly defying the entire world in dismantling their nuclear program. According to the IAEA,while in Geneva less than two weeks ago when the Iranian delegation walked out,this body was in possession of documents displaying a fitting of:

        ''a shaped uranium warhead on top of a missle platform''.

        It is not WHO has such weapons. It is who is unstable enough to use them as a means of :

        ''Wiping Israel off the map''.

        There are none so blind as those who cannot see.

        • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/05/2008 3:36:27 PM

          Since you didn't respond to anything I mentioned directly with this post, I'm not going to respond to your attempt to divert the discussion, except to say two things.

          One, I want you to explain how Operation Plumbat was justified or this discussion is over. Stop bringing up other issues. Respond to that point or I'll know you can't.

          Two, Ahmadinejad never said "wipe Israel off the map". The phrase "wipe off the map" does NOT EXIST IN IDIOMATIC FARSI, as far as I know - but of course you wouldn't take the time to understand what the actual translation is. What he said is that "the present Zionist regime in Israel must vanish from the pages of time" - more akin to saying that Bush needs to leave office than that America needs to be destroyed.

          I'm not bringing up any more points until you respond to those two and nothing else.

          • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 08/06/2008 3:50:03 PM

            Taking marching orders from the leftwinged Juan Cole again I see. Yet renown Farsi translator Sohrab Mohdavi in a June 14,2006 edition of the GUARDIAN[UK],calls Coles efforts misleading,as the idiomatic Farsi usage of the sentance Ayatollah Khomeni used and Ahmedinjezad repeated,was to ''wipe clean'' or ''wipe away'' Israel in its use as an actionable verb. Ahmedijezad loses further points as adressed by your vaunted WIKIPEDIA as it was he who in 2007 proposed that Jews living in Isreal be ''removed'' to a ''place in Europe'',or ''North Americas Alaska''. Obviously,his goal in militarily ''wiping'' Israel off the ''map''[or more admittedly accurate:''scene''[Farsi],which is the same damned thing as a ''map''merely provides a scenic geographical location,vests itself in arming his HEZBOLLAH with more advanced rocketry purchased from former Soviet states,the most prominent,Belarus,and placing these batteries along Israels northern border where they can strike targets all the way down to Tel Aviv. Thus a military offensive policy using proxy fighters and bankrolling these is viewed as a means to hurry along the second Jewish diaspora,in the minds of the Iranian leaders.
            PLUMBAT evidences its justification by the means which ELEVEN Arab nations can commence war against only one less than one year prior to the PLUMBAT incident seeking its total destruction. And not in one instance,as we have explored,but several. Had Iran been a Switzerland,or even an India pursuing nuclear weapons,the world would have yawned. But it is Iran. The largest terrocracy on planet Earth today eclipsing even that of Pakistan and its non-response to even legitimate lawful bodies creates even further tension that is not alliviated by Ahmedinjezad and others of the mullacracies,constant and consistant threats. Make no mistake. Upon the departure of Bush,and of Olmert,Iranian machinations to further the destruction of the Jewish state will continue apace.

            • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/07/2008 4:07:07 PM

              Whatever you say.

              All I want to note is that as long as you advocate the regard of all Iranians, all Palestinians, all Arab states as warmongers and terror machines, incapable of humanity or peace, don't be so shocked when they see no reason to listen to their own moderates and make any peaceful overtures. What's the point? No one's going to see them that way anyway.

              But I'm done with this, all I'm going to do is get dragged into this crazy "us against them" conflict and get branded a terrorist sympathizer even more than I already have been, and many Palestinians are hardly going to be predisposed to be charitable to me anyway due to my own partial Russian Jewish heritage. So this is a no-win situation for me. I'm out. Peace to you all, if you can find it.

      • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 08/05/2008 12:01:26 PM

        The followers of the Rabin murderer are not a nationalist movement,any more than Mansons ''Family'' You will be reminded that the person that may become Olmerts replacement,is a woman,and a moderate.[Tippi Livni]. Yet FATAH and HAMAS have a treasury of millions,with an organized,paramilitary terror system,are supported by other nations, and are chief rivals for sole control of the destiny of the Palestinians.[unlike the Jews,who,like Americans, democratically elect their leaders every four or six years. This seasons Likkud rightist can be tomorrows Labour dove].

    • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/05/2008 3:23:05 AM

      Also, I'd like to hear your justification for the Palestinian diaspora, if you could - the forced removal of 500,000 Palestinians from their lands prior to the creation of the West Bank or Gaza or Hamas or Fatah or any of the characteristics of modern Islamic terrorism.

      • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 08/05/2008 11:42:12 AM

        There was no ''creation''of the West Bank. It was forcibly taken from Syria[who laid claim to the land],in the 1967 War. Rather,why did Arab nations including the Palestinians,defy the entire world when it decided by a majority vote in the UN to create the State of Israel? HAD the Arabs left well enough alone in 1948,1956,1967 and 1973 there would have been NO ''Occupied Territories''. You forget that a nation of six millions ,surrounded by 150 millions,at the time of the 1967 War had no fewer than 11 Arab nations arrayed against her. No dice. It was the Arabs who made this scene. Had they not,Israel would be confined to its pre-1967 borders as a portion of the 1948 Mandate.

        • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/05/2008 3:30:14 PM

          You talk about "the Arabs" like they're all of a piece - like the Palestinians could simply have gone somewhere else when the Israelis kicked them out of their homes. They couldn't have. The Palestinians are a different people than the Lebanese, or the Jordanians, or the Syrians, or et cetera. They couldn't just pick up and move any more than you or I could.

          Your proposed "solution" - "just accept it" - is authoritarian, autocratic, and imperial. It translates to "my side can do whatever it wants to but if you try to tell us what to do we're going to accuse you of murder and intransience". Why didn't the Israelis "just accept" that they were forcibly removed to Egypt and enslaved, years ago? Why didn't they accept that Israel/Palestine was overtaken by the Romans and they were forced into diaspora themselves? The fact that Israel stood up for its own right to overcome a two-thousand-year-old diaspora but claims that the Arabs should "accept" things the way they are is the sign of a state that's lost its ability to treat anyone but itself with decency and integrity.

          And from what I remember, it's awfully funny that you're coming down on the side of the U.N. this time when your usual comments on these blogs are that the U.N. is useless and that the U.S. doesn't have to follow its mandates. So you're not fooling me in the slightest - you don't care about the U.N., you don't care about fairness, or mutuality. You just care about protecting your own worldview at any cost.

          While I don't condone the terrorist actions of the extremist Arabs - far from it, I think they're making the situation worse for everyone, their own people most of all - given your arrogance, accusations, and hypocrisy, I certainly understand them.

          • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 08/06/2008 3:16:30 PM

            They damned sure were of ''a piece''when they unilaterally attacked Israel on four seperate occasions between the 1940s and 1970s,this is for sure. I come down on the UN as it is NOW. Not when it was a mere three years old in 1948 when it made its momentous decision[we will observe here that while Jews were being sent to Auchwitz,Arabs,including your vaunted Palestinians,were in league with the Nazis. Indeed,the very archtiect of the ''Final Solution'',SS Lt.Col. Adolf Eichmann,met in 1937 with ''Palestinian''Arab leaders in order to gauge their effectiveness in dealing with the 'Jewish problem''], Hitlers Mein Kamph[My Struggle],remains a bestseller to this day in Gaza and throughout the Middle East. These are neanderthals with keffyehs,little more.

  • Posted By: sgoldbarg @ 08/07/2008 9:51:03 AM

    joe_mama, I meant the refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria. Of course, Israel has a (but not the only) responsibility for refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank.

    Point 1: General agreement. I'll add: a."The debacle in Lebanon" should show the importance of states taking responsibility for wars launched from their borders. b. I think the thousands of rockets launched by hizbullah have largely erased the images of tanks v small boys.

    Point 2. Israel is the only party to have made any concessions so far. So far, the Pals have not lived up to their word on past agreements, e.g. Arafat was caught smuggling artillery, Fatah elements continuing to claim all of old Cis-Jordan to be Palestine (with recent schoolbook maps continuing that fiction), etc. Until the Palestinians make some concessions, I doubt that Israel will change any of it's positions.

    Point 3. I doubt the accuracy of this statement. There may be enough moderates on the West Bank to negotiate a lasting peace, and enforce it against the rejectionists. However, unless the West Bankers choose to disassociate from the Gazans, this option does not seem possible in the near future.

    Point 4: Mutual Assured Destruction is not a viable option.

    Your root canal w/o anesthesia metaphor is apt.

    I appreciate being able to discuss the topic with a rational person. Of course, you would have to be an Obama supporter, I wouldn't have though anything else. Had you engaged in virulent anti-Jewish or anti-Muslim smears I would have naturally have supposed that you back Mccain, Barr, or Nader.

    2.

    • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/07/2008 3:54:05 PM

      Regarding your point 2, I absolutely agree, for what it's worth. I think the Palestinian authorities have been utterly corrupt and dishonorable in their dealings in this situation, particularly on a national level. Arafat's government was a dishonest sham.

    • Posted By: joe_mama @ 08/07/2008 11:35:13 AM

      While I don't necessarily agree with all your points (except #2 and #4), I think your logic is sound.

      In terms of the Lebanese camps: I'm really interested/concerned/fascinated with the power play going on in the Lebanese government. As I understand, a significant number of Lebanese are fed up the Syrian influence and want the fighters removed from the camps. Who knows who will come out on top.

      In terms of the Syrian camps: I can't believe Syria is going pull back (except to regroup and rearm) and I see them as the major obstacle to peace in the region.

      As I said before, I support Israel -- they are our strongest ally in a strategic area and we share cutlural ties with them as well. Nevertheless, I cannot their present course of action resulting in any kind of lasting stability, which is why I liken it to the root canal: do nothing and continue to suffer; do something and it's going to hurt -- real bad -- for a while. Unlike a root canal, however, there is no guarantee of success.

      JM

  • Posted By: FredJ @ 08/07/2008 12:00:11 PM

    Since we don't know what's causing the uptick in violent acts, we don't know who to blame. Yet the title of the article blames the wall. This is not helpful.

  • Posted By: FredJ @ 08/07/2008 11:57:07 AM

    Since nobody knows for sure what's causing the uptick in violence in these East Jerusalem neighborhoods, the article is reduced to '...on the one hand, on the other hand...'.

    Since we can't be sure, we can't assign blame beyond the individuals. Yet the title of the article blames the wall. This is misleading.

  • Posted By: almujahid @ 08/06/2008 4:18:28 AM

    totally unfair,israel are the most hatred nation because they stole the land of palestine, because the british and us were behind thie zionist,the jews did these crimes,this will be never end,this is the main source of muslim hatred against the west,and it will never stop,never

    • Posted By: sgoldbarg @ 08/07/2008 11:43:20 AM

      There is nothing in Sharia law or the Noble Q'ran that gives either ownership or rule of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea to either the Arabs or the Muslims. There is nothing in Saria or the Q'ran forbidding Arabs to sell land to Jews, except in what is now Saudi Arabia. Therefore, Muslims have no reason to hate anyone for the fact that Jews who lived in Cis-Jordan for 3,800 years, and non-native Jews who purchased land from Arabs between the 1880s and 1948, decided to re-establish a nation of their own.

      The basis for Muslim claims to own Israel is the mistaken belief that any place once conquered by Muslim led armies now belong to the 'Muslim Empire.' That theory puts Kiev, Budapest, Kishinev, Bucharest, Belgrade, Valetta, Athens, Marsailles, Nicosia, Palermo, Urumji, and Calcutta in the same category with Jerusalem. It is inconsistent, illogical and odd that when Muslim-led arms lose land, that land apparently still belongs to the loser.

      In fact, there is no basis to claim that the land of Israel rightfully belongs to your non-existent Muslim entity.

    • Posted By: joe_mama @ 08/06/2008 11:39:26 AM

      "Comment: totally unfair,israel are the most hatred nation because they stole the land of palestine, because the british and us were behind thie zionist,the jews did these crimes,this will be never end,this is the main source of muslim hatred against the west,and it will never stop,never"

      Are you suggesting that the only solution to this problem is war? Are you saying there's no chance for peace? Are you implying that EVERY non-Jew or non-Christian is committed to the death of Israel and the fall of the West? If that's the case, then why should I - as a moderate in the West - give a rat's behind about what happens to you? Why should I stick up for you when all you want is my death/destruction?

      If your civilian population is committed to war, then why shouldn't we bring war to your civilian population? We didn't win WWII because of Normandy, we won it because we bombed the Germans and the Japanese into submission, completely demolishing entire cities and bringing unspeakable pain and suffering to innocent civilians (many of whom did not support the war or their governments).

      Is this what you want? There are plenty of people here in the U.S. and elsewhere that would be only too happy to give it to you, and they point to comments like these as a way to justfify violence, claiming it's a matter of self-preservation.

      So, if you are comfortable with further atrocities, continued international isolation, and the death of another generation of young men (and now women, too), then, by all means, keep posting comments like these. You may just get your wish.

      JM

  • Posted By: sgoldbarg @ 08/06/2008 9:54:40 PM

    doktor,

    The Palestinians could have stayed and resisted the Syrian invasion, as other Muslims did. Instead they left and joined Israel's enemies. The fact that Israel's enemies have done little to develop the Palestinians in the camps, or integrate them into the larger Arab societies, is unfortunate, but not really Israel's responsibility.

    Israel is the only country in the region, outside of Turkey, where Arabs and Muslims have freedom of speech and worship, and can form political parties and vote. I include Gaza and the West Bank in the unfree column. There is no Arab country that allows Jews to own land, form political parties, or vote. That Israel is heavy handed, I grieve, but the Palestinians have had 60 years of opportunities to make a workable peace agreement. There can be no peace until the Palestinians themselves agree on whether they are a tiny nation, or part of an Arabic speaking empire that spans from Morocco to Iraq as Hamas believes, or part of a greater Muslim empire spanning from Morocco to Indonesia as Hizbullah believes. Even if there were no Jews and no Israel, there would be oppression and war in Palestine, until the solution to that puzzle is found.

    • Posted By: joe_mama @ 08/06/2008 11:40:59 PM

      "The fact that Israel's enemies have done little to develop the Palestinians in the camps, or integrate them into the larger Arab societies, is unfortunate, but not really Israel's responsibility."

      This is a very shortsided view (which I'm sure is shared by many Israelis). Those camps were established to handle the influx of refugees from some of many Israeli-Arab wars (most notably 1967). One could make the case that, as the victor, Israel IS, in fact, responsible for the welfare of the civilians they displaced.

      This point is moot, however. Regardless of who is responsible for them, they ARE, and continue to be, Israel's problem, and Israel has to make some very tough choices about how to resolve the issue. The way I see it, Israel has 4 options:

      1) Continue with the status quo. The debacle in Lebanon, to me, anyways, is an indication that Israel's defense forces are too thin to mount and maintain an occupation force capable of securing both Israel's borders and the Palestinian refugee camps. Furthermore, images of homes being demolished and tanks facing down stone-throwing kids (I know ... but these are the images that make the news) have compromised the perception that Israel is the victim here.

      2) Make a unilateral concession - Not likely to happen. This is a situation where each side HAS to "save face" (even if it means cutting of their own noses to do it). You know what I mean so I won't elaborate.

      3) Negotiate a peace - There are enough moderates in Palestine to make this option possible, albeit very unlikely (lest we forget Arafat's blundering of the last "legitimate" Israeli peace offer).

      4) Fight to the bitter end - It's unclear what that end will be, as neither side is capable of achieving a lasting victory (see option #1). I can't believe they would drop nukes so close to their own border, so a total military victory is just not realistic.

      In short, this is a root canal without anesthesia and is likely to get worse before it gets better.

      JM

  • Posted By: doktor @ 08/06/2008 9:21:57 AM

    Historic Injustice

    Is such official injustice toward Palestinians a recent phenomenon in Israel? Hardly. Israel was birthed through terrorizing and expelling Palestinians from their ancestral lands.

    Of course, Israel denies it expelled the Palestinians. They say the 700,000 to 800,000 indigenous Palestinians who fled Israel during the 1948 Arab-Israel war deserved to lose their properties; they were disloyal to the emerging State of Israel, defecting to Israel's Arab enemies at a crucial, vulnerable moment in Israel's struggle for nationhood.

    Israel says that the Palestinians eagerly obeyed when Arab generals urged the Palestinians to vacate Israel so that the Jews could be slaughtered and driven into the sea. Such refugees, Israel alleges, were confident the conquering Arabs would return their land and property -- and more, once the Zionist experiment in Palestine was destroyed. Considering such alleged treachery, to this moment Israel remains adamant that no property of refugees who fled in 1948 will be returned to them.

    What Really Happened

    Let's turn from propaganda to reality. Here's what really happened in 1948.
    http://www.rense.com/general82/found.htm

  • Posted By: Reader11 @ 08/05/2008 10:52:28 AM

    Are all your articles written so one-sided. A man makes a decision to kill innocent people, woman and children and you make it sound as if the only people to be sorry for are these killers and their families. The ones that make it hard on their families is the killers themselves, who leave their familieis without their bread winner. And, where at all, in your article is a description of the lives of the innocent civilians that live and visit Jerusalem, whose lives were shattered by these killers?

    • Posted By: joe_mama @ 08/05/2008 10:30:49 PM

      Reader11,

      I mean no disrespect to you, but this comment really gets my goat. Since when does understanding something mean you endorse it?

      In 1982, Grandmaster Flash released "The Message" ("don't push me cuz I'm close to the edge..."). At the time people said he was inciting riots, encourage lawlessness, and defending anti-social behavior. How could he? They asked. This isn't music! This isn't art! It's criminal! They claimed.

      Five years later they're watching movies like "Colors" and asking how the drug/gang problem got so bad in the U.S. Nobody bothered to consider that Grandmaster Flash's song was a warning - even though it predicted/foreshadowed many of the problems facing youth in America (not just the inner cities, either).

      I submit to you that this article, too, carries a warning: despite our best intentions, we can sometimes create more problems than we solve. The fact that this spike in violence is relatively new should make this warning obvious (to most anyway).

      For the record: I support Israel, and feel that the Palestinians have squandered many golden opportunities to achieve peace and rebuild their communities. I cannot, however, justify, endorse, or otherwise support the heavy handed tactics the Israelis have used to try to "quell" the problem. I would actually have more respect for them if they launched an all-out war against the Palestinians (and the rest of the Arabs) because at least then they would be honest about their goals and intentions.

      I'll leave you with something else to chew on:
      Are you your brother's keeper? If he does something stupid, should you be held responsible for it? What if the cops came to you and said, "your brother robbed a bank so we're going to destroy your home."? Would you say, "I understand and bear you no malice." or would you curset them and their families and say, "that's not fair."?

      We both know the answer, so I won't say it.

      • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/06/2008 5:22:39 AM

        "I ... feel that the Palestinians have squandered many golden opportunities to achieve peace and rebuild their communities. I cannot, however, justify, endorse, or otherwise support the heavy handed tactics the Israelis have used to try to "quell" the problem."

        This statement so accurately describes my feelings about the situation that I have to thank you for writing it, man.

  • Posted By: Anju Chandel @ 08/06/2008 3:56:09 AM

    As Barack Obama said in Berlin: "So history reminds us that walls can be torn down." ... All walls of the world should be torn down for sustainable peace and prosperity for humanity!

  • Posted By: sgoldbarg @ 08/05/2008 4:37:56 PM

    Vigil,

    Ya, "Lebanese, Jordanians, or the Syrians, and etc" don't speak Arabic, like the Pals do, and don't live on rice, barley, lentils, mutton, & onions. Ya you guys are really distinct peoples, and couldn't possibly intermingle. Just like you couldn't intermingle with the Jews who lived in that land for the last 3,800 years.

    In May, 1948 the Cis and TransJordanians, Syrians, and Egyptians, and Lebanese could have accepted the existence of Israel in the UN partition. But you angrily refused. You warned that you would all destroy the Palestinian Jews' state and all the Jewish people of Palestine if they dared to declare their independent state. You demanded that the Attlee Government get Imperial troops out of the way so that your armies could attack and 'hurl the Jews into the sea' to drown. The Attlee government evacuated their troops in 24 hours.
    Then YOU attacked, and your genocidal plan backfired. You intended genocide, but it was you that was hurled back.
    Look, if you were really a seperate people, why did Syria, Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Egypt send armies into the land in 1948 ? They did it because you are Arabs, just like them. So, don't try to fool people with this seperate people business.

    If Pals want land, let those Arab countries that confiscated land owned by Jews, Algeria, Yemen, Libya, Sudan, and Iraq, give land to them.

    • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/05/2008 9:10:48 PM

      Who's "YOU"? I'm an American, with family from about sixteen different countries - including both Lebanese and Russian Jewish - but I'm third generation in all of them. None of my family members within two generations have called anything but the U.S. home in eighty years. I'm fairly angry at you making generalizations about me when you don't even know me, sir.

      I will repeat my point from below - if the Jewish people and the state of Israel have demanded the right of return to the lands they once inhabited since they were expelled by the Romans two thousand years ago, how is it fair to demand that the Palestinians act any differently about their own right of return?

  • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 08/04/2008 3:08:36 PM

    NEWSWEAK plays the same Gaza Game all the other western liberal news services do. What they find in Israel,incredibly,is a leftwing that exists nowhere else in the Middle East. One sympathetic to the desires of the Palestinians. Thus they are quite able to display ''evil militaristic Jew police/army/intelligence services'' and ''good liberal-leftwinged human rights Jews''. [no such comparisons are made when regarding the Arab,for as we see,a ''liberal-leftwing''does not exist among this grouping of humans in any numbers where they would have an effective voice among their peoples. Indeed,while NEWSWEAKS scribbler was waxing maudlin in Jerusalem,Gazans were,a la WWII France and Holland,cutting off the hair and beards/moustaches of those suspected of ''collaberating''with the Israelis.[with others of where there appears to be ''hard evidence''of such ''collaberation'',they are summarily shot]. Rocker Brian Adams had to beat a fast retreat from Ramallah when he recieved death threats from HAMAS while trying to put on a ''peace concert'',which had a Palestinian artist on the Jewish side near Masada,who was the subject of zero threats from the Jews.
    Obviously,the wild card remains and is still Iran. It has shut down all diplomatic overtures,or assistances held out by the UN and the EU and will go forward with its weapons-grade enrichment program. The IAEA is completely in the dark. The idea here will be to use their bomb as political leverage,even in conflicts where they are not main players with the exception of their HEZBOLLAH in places such as Israel and Lebanon. Although I have not been successful in finding out about it anywhere around here.it appears that one of their top operatives was killed by a sniper this weekend stoking further tensions between Assad and the Olmert government.

    • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/04/2008 3:47:31 PM

      You're so full of sh.it.

      There are insane fundamentalist Palestinians, and moderate Palestinians. The thing is, the moderate Palestinians have mostly *left* Israel/Palestine because they don't want to live in the squalor of Gaza/the West Bank and be subject to this kind of prejudice. There's a Palestinian diaspora that rivals the ancient Israeli diaspora at this point, and that's where you'll find most of the moderate and educated Palestinians at this point. The only people who want to live in the armed camps that the West Bank and Gaza have become are hardliners.

      My university Arabic professor was a liberal, moderate Palestinian who loved American basketball, loved Islam and calligraphy, promoted peace and was deeply concerned about the plight of his people. To me, your theory doesn't wash.

      As another note, you'll find sympathy for the Palestinians in just about every Arabic country in the Middle East, as well as Iran. Israel is one of the few places you *don't* find it. But my guess is that you speak no Arabic and thus would have no way of seeing anything except a single side of the situation.

      And regarding "using bombs as political leverage" - what on Earth do you think that America and Israel and every other state with nuclear weapons does? To be a modern state that *doesn't* possess nuclear weaponry is to be a state that constantly lives in fear of the *other side* acting unilaterally. We have so many people in this country wanting to invade Iran that I quite honestly don't blame them for wanting to get a nuclear weapon - not for aggression, but for self-protection. The Israeli claims that Iran will use a nuclear weapon the second it gets one do not wash with me. It would mean the absolute annihilation of a four-thousand-year-old state and all of its people, due to Israel's vast nuclear arsenal of its own, which it makes no qualms about its readiness to use, particularly. My sincere guess is that the Iranians *are* seeking the bomb, but for self-defense as opposed to "terrorism" - and the claims that it won't hesitate to bomb "the Jews" as soon as it get one are just so much fear and paranoia, and persecutory sentiment, on the part of the modern Israeli state.

      • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 08/04/2008 6:02:45 PM

        This,fortunately,is your inane opinion. [as well as incorrect and revisionist. ''Moderate Palestinians''do not wish to remain in Gaza because they would be killed. By their own]. Then too,why would a nation seeking ''self protection''[such as Iran],use its paramilitary terrorist organs in an OFFENSIVE,not a defensive,manner? Are you truly bovine enough not to have observed that the incursion by HEZBOLLAH into the Bekka Valley in Lebanon was anything other than an offensive operation? That its meddling in the affairs of a nation that is not their own constitutes an offensive policy? Your revisionism is patently dullwitted. Israel had nukes during the First Gulf War and damned well could have used them against an Iraq that was lobbing SCUD missles at Jewish targets. But it did not. It did not seek blanket bombing of Iraq and Syrian targets when it suspected that these were [rightly as it became]seeking nuclear weapons technology. It pinpoint-bombed only the facilities themselves. It was not ''Jews''who vaporized nearly 300 of our soldiers in Beirut. It was not ''Jews''who blew up the Khobar Towers. It was not ''Jews''who brought down airliners packed with civilians of all nations. It was not ''Jews''who sent terrorists to Argentina to murder other Arabs. It is not ''Jews''who have successively murdered the heads of state or presidential candidates of other nations.[Beginning with the Gemayals of Lebanon]. Make no mistake. Even among your ideological betters[which is just about everbody],there is no ''Israel''. It literally does not exist in their minds. Your ''freedom fighters''are little better than a pack of racist murdering thugs.[ye gods. Even butchering their own as the infighting between HAMAS and FATAH factions prove]. This is a patent reason why things are at their present pass.

        • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/04/2008 7:34:34 PM

          By the way, for what it's worth, I completely agree that many moderate Palestinians would be killed by hardliner Palestinians if they remained in Gaza or the West Bank...but again...you might want to ask Yitzhak Rabin about moderates being killed by their own as well.

        • Posted By: TheVigil @ 08/04/2008 7:27:53 PM

          I don't need to name-call in order to prove my position. Why do you? Ad hominem attacks are a logical fallacy - you seek to undermine my argument by attacking *me* personally, instead of keeping the debate to debate points. You're also putting words in my mouth. I never used the phrase "freedom fighters" - you seek to lie about *my* position in order to assign values to me that I never personally used. Is it because you're not capable of engaging in debate without mischaracterizing my position? People who have well-reasoned positions don't need to resort to insults and name-calling in order to engage in effective debate.

          As far as I can tell from reading the reports, the Beqaa Valley incident was an invasion by *Israeli* forces. Can you provide evidence contrary to this position? Reference - http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2006/08/idf_commando_raid_in.php

          As you would know if you'd read my posts below, I do not support terrorist action by any agency. But I do seek to understand the causes of it.

          I will retract my statements about Iranian nuclear technology. I have no idea why they want nuclear technology, in truth. But I will still point out that Israel has enough nuclear weaponry at this point to decimate the Earth - as does the U.S. Neither state has remained free from using threats of these weapons for political leverage throughout the region and world - witness the current rhetoric about bombing Iran in the national political and election debate - and insisting that Iran and Arabic states refrain from doing so is not likely to convince them in the slightest as long as we keep doing it ourselves. As long as Israel makes statements about using nuclear weaponry if attacked, Iran and Arabic countries are going to attempt to obtain the same technology and do the same thing.

          And there are Jewish terrorists and terror agencies as well. You may wish to ask Yitzhak Rabin about that. I also urge you to read the contents of the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad#Activities

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