Here's a funny question: What role did the McCain campaign play in creating this conflict? McCain advisor Randy Scheuneman prepped McCain to speak to Saakashvili the same day he signed a $290,000 contract to lobby for Georgia back in April. Was McCain aware this Scheuneman guy has a serious conflict of interest? What did McCain and Scheuneman tell the Georgian president? Was this at odds with the advice from Condi Rice to the Georgian government, which was not to invade South Ossetia?
‘Sinful Saakashvili’ or Hero?
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Posted By: danmanplan @ 08/15/2008 2:49:52 PM
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Posted By: schnacker24 @ 08/15/2008 5:26:11 AM
What a bad russian propaganda in this forum! Russia has never taken a neutral position in this frozen conflict since 1992. Its position as a "peacekeeper" was dubious since the beginning.
Under their eyes (and probably with their support) weapons have been smuggled into Abkhazia and SO.
At the time when russian troops still were present in a few caserns near Tiflis I remember the news of one russian officer being taken up for smuggling russian anti-air rockets to SO for his own pocket using army trucks.
Russian black money is being washed in Abkhazia!
Both leaders - Abkh. and SO - have very closed ties to russian FSB/ military leaders. They all are deeply involved in banditism, local mafia and money-laundering!
And what does keep them together? The old communist, imperialistic, distorted view of the world...
Remember russian arms dealer Viktor Bout who sold lots of weapon systems from Russia/ Ukraine?
And who were his customers? Socialist rebels/ regimes from Colombia to Sudan/ Angola!
From Germany with love
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Posted By: schnacker24 @ 08/15/2008 5:23:55 AM
What a bad russian propaganda in this forum! Russia has never taken a neutral position in this frozen conflict since 1992. Its position as a "peacekeeper" was dubious since the beginning.
Under their eyes (and probably with their support) weapons have been smuggled into Abkhazia and SO.
At the time when russian troops still were present in a few caserns near Tiflis I remember the news of one russian officer being taken up for smuggling russian anti-air rockets to SO for his own pocket using army trucks.
Russian black money is being washed in Abkhazia!
Both leaders - Abkh. and SO - have very closed ties to russian FSB/ military leaders. They all are deeply involved in banditism, local mafia and money-laundering!
And what does keep them together? The old communist, imperialistic, distorted view of the world...
Remember russian arms dealer Viktor Bout who sold lots of weapon systems from Russia/ Ukraine?
And who were his customers? Socialist rebels/ regimes from Colombia to Sudan/ Angola!
From Germany with love
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Posted By: Questions2 @ 08/14/2008 4:35:52 PM
A couple of points:
1 In the international media the background to the Russian-Georgian war is given starting from last week and the bombing of Tshinvali. The military conflict has actually been going on for some years with Russian military planes flying over Georgia and ???unidentified??? bombs and rockets falling into Georgia.
2 The cyberattacks on Georgia started a day before the bombing of Tshinvali.
3 The Russian citizens in South Ossetia to whose aid Russia purportedly rushed were manufactured by Russia in the last few years. Russia simply handed out its passports to anyone who wanted them in South Ossetia.
4 The Russian claim that a war is to defend civilians is ridiculous from a logical standpoint alone. Any peace is better than war for civilians. A country whose primary goal was to protect civilians would not go to war or if it was already in one would withdraw as quickly as possible. That applies to all wars, not just the present one in Georgia.
5 Russia claims that the South Ossetians chose independence from Georgia in a referendum in 2004. A fair referendum in Russian-controlled territory is a contradiction in terms but perhaps South Ossetians really prefer to secede. If Russia wants Ossetians to be independent, it should first grant independence to North Ossetia that is currently part of Russia. That would be a very powerful argument in favour of South Ossetian independence. Russia of course just wants to expand its territory and will incorporate South Ossetia into itself, not give it independence.
6 Russia claims Georgia has perpetrated genocide in South Ossetia. Considering the number of international advisers, consultants, monitors and no doubt spies in Georgia now a genocide would have been noticed very quickly. No other sources besides Russian ones have confirmed the genocide allegations however. A genocide can be carried out relatively unnoticed only in remote and isolated territories where a great power is denying access to the international community. That happened for example in Chechenya where Russia strongly discouraged international observation.
7 There are many similarities between the rhetoric and behaviour of Germany in 1938 and Russia in 2008, for example the defending of one???s citizens abroad argument, accusing a smaller country of attacking a larger one, claiming that the world is biased against them, fostering separatism and ethnic conflict in its neighbours??? territories. Carl Bildt drew some good parallels between Russia and Hitler???s Germany in a recent article.
8 On the internet the Russian viewpoint is more widely represented than the Georgian simply because the number of potential commenters and bloggers in Russia is much larger than in Georgia.-
Posted By: Ivan_Russian @ 08/15/2008 3:00:50 AM
1) about some planes - why dont you mention abou 6 (Six!!!) Georgian arcraft-SPYes that was crashed by Osetian anti-aircraft forces during March-June of 2008??? Georgia planned its aggresion many-many days before!
2) Cyberattacks? Its the part of informational war (by now I think Georgia won this battle)
3) Historically there always (!) lived too many Russians in Osetia . Why we should not give them Russian passports by their request? Osetia is NOT a part of Georgia from 1991... where have you been for 17 years???
4) War was started by Georgia! Nobody denying that fact (except you). What would you say if some country killed about 2000 of your citizens? Begin to defend aggressor? Its stupid.
5) Hey, not in 2004! but yet in 1990s - there was one more Georgian-osetian war, remember?
6) All of your "free mass medis" are just sitting in Georgia bot NO ONE of them try to go in Osetia... strange... why? There is a lot of interesting matherials... just go there and see by yourself!
7) Georgia attacked small Osetia (the second time). and about Hitler - see once more your historic book before saying this Bull ***...
8) In all internet I can see only "Russia attacked Georgia", "USSR comes back", "Putin is KGB". .. but where is something about GEORGIANS KILLED OSETIANS, or GEORGIAN THREATS OSETIANS AND ABKHASIANS??? All of western mass media are crying about several wounded georgians and crying womens... "Russians are coming!... Run away! NATO save us!' - like that... Why NATO allowed its favourite Georgian president attack Osetia? Why everybody silent about it? Double standarts???
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Posted By: Marylander from Russia @ 08/15/2008 2:13:38 AM
Soros??? double-dealing in the Caucasus oil market
By Wayne Madsen
Online Journal Contributing Writer
Russia is taking intense heat from not only the neocon media in its reprisal against Georgian aggression against South Ossetia, but also from the usual Soros-funded ???progressive??? media outlets, print, broadcast, and web-based.
http://www.americanfreepress.net/
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Posted By: Marylander from Russia @ 08/14/2008 6:01:57 PM
<And what will happen with West media like BBC when South Osetian witnesses tell the truth about georgian crimes in Hague? Will they just say us "sorry. We`ve had wrong info about the situation". Or everyone will see at last they lie us to much to trust them>
Ask Anna Nemtsova WHY ALL her reports come from one side- Tbilisi? Is she scarry of the Geordians artillery and snipers who still send Forget me Not greetings to their neighbors in South Ossetia? It looks like she sits in her Hotel room and just copies the news from Georgian TV News...
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Posted By: slepovay @ 08/14/2008 3:40:10 PM
pre. to mr. JohnCarlos you don`t need to trust Russia! Trust your own eyes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu_RjaTAuMY
there witnesses of the tragedy tell us what was happening there.
I`m sure that in army area good forces will destroy evil forces
But what really scares me is lie and propoganda in media in such scale. DEVIL won. Everyone knows that devil likes to produce black as white and vice versa. That`s exactly what we see watching and reading the most part of West media. It`s a crisis of free press. What kind of free press can we talk about if there was no report about more than 1600 civillians killed by georgian troops in Tskhinvali, including women and children burned alive in the church. But today "free" press doesn`t care that. They want to show us mr. Saakashvilli`s showman tallent and stupid stories about "russian bear"
And what will happen with West media like BBC when South Osetian witnesses tell the truth about georgian crimes in Hague? Will they just say us "sorry. We`ve had wrong info about the situation". Or everyone will see at last they lie us to much to trust them
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Posted By: slepovay @ 08/14/2008 3:39:10 PM
pre. to mr. JohnCarlos you don`t need to trust Russia! Trust your own eyes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu_RjaTAuMY
there witnesses of the tragedy tell us what was happening there.
I`m sure that in army area good forces will destroy evil forces
But what really scares me is lie and propoganda in media in such scale. DEVIL won. Everyone knows that devil likes to produce black as white and vice versa. That`s exactly what we see watching and reading the most part of West media. It`s a crisis of free press. What kind of free press can we talk about if there was no report about more than 1600 civillians killed by georgian troops in Tskhinvali, including women and children burned alive in the church. But today "free" press doesn`t care that. They want to show us mr. Saakashvilli`s showman tallent and stupid stories about "russian bear"
And what will happen with West media like BBC when South Osetian witnesses tell the truth about georgian crimes in Hague? Will they just say us "sorry. We`ve had wrong info about the situation". Or everyone will see at last they lie us to much to trust them
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Posted By: Ivan_Russian @ 08/14/2008 9:27:41 AM
Saakashvilli - is a realy good SHOWMAN )) Spectacle shown on tv: Run,run, run in bunker ... ha-ha... "russian airforces flying..."... ha-ha-ha ))) Really a good show )))))!!! I laughed myself into convulsions))))!!!
By this reason this "puppet of USA" shown on western TV (CNN, BBS, Reuters)
Paid president of "democratical Georgia" was elected in Washington (ask his wife). He even speaks to his own nation in English... )))
And also some photos and PARTS OF VIDEO placed in REUTERS website (where burnt tanks are shown) WAS MADE IN South OSETIA!!! photos of burnt tanks on the streets was publicated yet 08/08/08 when Russian forces entered Tskhinvaly!
Later georgian president said that Russians bombed Tshinvally.... I fall into faint! Is he CRAZY??? If so why Osetians run away from georgians and run to Russia????
Every war USA campaign was well-illuminated by western channels (BBC/CNN and others) ever. And always later appeared information about "prepaid" reports from them, wrong or "not correct" information... At least PRO-AMERICAN information ONLY is shows there...
You can choose whether to eat all this lie-*** or to try searching a FULL information (from the both sides of barricades)... not only georgians side....
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Posted By: ghenry @ 08/14/2008 6:34:44 AM
Am I missing something here? Why is nobody pointing out that Georgia started this whole fiasco. From the news reports, it is made to look as though Russia woke up one morning and decided to invade Georgia. The violence started when Saakashvilli started in on South Ossetia and aslo had Abkhazia in his sights.
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Posted By: solifugus @ 08/13/2008 1:34:55 PM
I don't think it was as simply as Georgia invading South Ossetia and the Russians launching a counter-offensive to that. The Russians were building up on the border, prior this on the pretense of military exercises. They armed and supported the separatists. The Georgian invasion of Tskinvali was in response to increasing rebel attacks. So the Georgians were effectively sucker punched.
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Posted By: Jill from Florida @ 08/13/2008 7:17:00 PM
Saakashvili is disparate to join NATO, but with the autonomous South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Georgia's membership was in jeopardy. THE US ADVISED SAAKASHVILI NOT TO INVADE SOUTH OSSETIA. The puppet didn't listen.
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Posted By: nawawimohamad @ 08/14/2008 4:49:21 AM
NO, Saakashvili has been brain washed by the US to start the arm conflict, which he did.
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Posted By: Omaar @ 08/14/2008 3:11:07 AM
Keep in Mind...
1. Russia Supplies the USA with Gas & Oil.
2. Russia has the Largest Stockpile of Nuclear Weapons on Planet Earth !!
3. Russia also has one of the Largest Militaries On Earth !!
4. Russia and China are In Agreement on Most Foreign Policies and Performed Joint Military Excercises with China in Aug. of 2007.
5. Both Russia and China Together would be a Nuclear NightMare, Noone would WIN and we'd Jeopardize our Nation for Manaical Sakashavilli & Georgia...No Way !!
No American should lay down their Flesh, Blood, Bone and Spirit, for a Man Willfully Blind in Attacking a Seperated Province with Russian Peacekeepers within Osettia
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Posted By: Omaar @ 08/14/2008 3:09:39 AM
Georgian President to McCain: Move ???from Words to Deeds???
This Maniac has got to be Kidding !!
Source: The CNN Political Ticker
Producer Peter Hamby
Note: This Maniac Sakashvilli has got to be Kidding Me !!
Sakashvilli Attacked and Killed Many Osettians Thursday Night, without Provocation....
He Started this Invasion, keep this in mind.
Keep in Mind...
1. Russia Supplies the USA with Gas & Oil.
2. Russia has the Largest Stockpile of Nuclear Weapons on Planet Earth !!
3. Russia also has one of the Largest Militaries On Earth !!
4. Russia and China are In Agreement on Most Foreign Policies and Performed Joint Military Excercises with China in Aug. of 2007.
5. Both Russia and China Together would be a Nuclear NightMare, Noone would WIN and we'd Jeopardize our Nation for Manaical Sakashavilli & Georgia...No Way !!
No American should lay down their Flesh, Blood, Bone and Spirit, for a Man Willfully Blind in Attacking a Seperated Province with Russian Peacekeepers within Osettia
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(CNN) ??? Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili on Wednesday called for John McCain and other American leaders to do more for Georgia in their response to the conflict in his country.
"Yesterday, I heard Sen. McCain say, 'We are all Georgians now,'" Saakashvili said on CNN's American Morning. "Well, very nice, you know, very cheering for us to hear that, but OK, it's time to pass from this. From words to deeds."
McCain told a crowd in Pennsylvania yesterday that he had called Saakashvili to express solidarity with the people of Georgia, saying: "Today, we are all Georgians."
McCain's foreign policy adviser Randy Scheunemann a Long Time (Georgian Lobbyist) told reporters on the campaign plane Tuesday that McCain's remark "obviously meant a lot to Saakashvili personally, but more importantly the message it conveyed to the Georgian people in this really, time of unprecedented national emergency." Scheunemann said McCain and Saakashvili are friends who have speaking daily throughout the crisis.
But Saakashvili said action is more important than rhetoric in the face of "brutal" and "deliberate" Russian violence. He urged the United States to take the lead in installing an international peacekeeping force.
"We should realize what is at stake here for Americans," he said. "America is losing the whole region."
"What Americans should do know, first of all, clearly make known their intentions," he said.
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Posted By: Glenno @ 08/14/2008 2:35:30 AM
Might it be because Georgia is what Jim Murphy, Britain's minister for Europe, called a "small beautiful democracy". Well it's certainly small and beautiful, but both the current president, Mikheil Saakashvili, and his predecessor came to power in western-backed coups, the most recent prettified as a "Rose revolution". Saakashvili was then initially rubber-stamped into office with 96% of the vote before establishing what the International Crisis Group recently described as an "increasingly authoritarian" government, violently cracking down on opposition dissent and independent media last November. "Democratic" simply seems to mean "pro-western" in these cases.
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Posted By: Glenno @ 08/14/2008 2:31:27 AM
It is strange how Georgia is receiving support from all media after attacking what can only be described as ethnic cleansing. How America is taking Georia side only makes it very clear how US policy follows Brzezenski's vision (the grand chessboard) of how United States should gain control and dominance over Eurasia. I guess it is easier to blame Russia than Georgia, as CIA is workign there and the last 4 years US has pumped money in to the Georgian army after putting in this puppet regime after the "democratic coup" that United States staged in Georgia and Ukraine. If we also take the rocket shield and Nato expantion into account how can the media portray Russia as the aggressor???
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Posted By: kvasyr @ 08/13/2008 8:06:13 AM
Only on the day before the violence started was there an indication in the American press as to Georgia's provocative actions. Starting the following day it was unilateral condemnation of Russia, pro forma with "King" George's wishes. The current rendition of American government does not inform nor does it represent the wishes of the majority of the American People. It saddens me that the good and decent citizens of the world have no way to know this
A thoughtful American-
Posted By: Marylander from Russia @ 08/13/2008 10:21:37 PM
Thank you for your comment: I cannot agree more.
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Posted By: celeste47 @ 08/13/2008 4:20:41 PM
We all must ask the same question.....why did Saakasvili go on the attack in a region he knew was heavily protected by the Russians? Saakasvili also knew most diplomats would be vacationing this time of year especially with the Olympics going on. What did he really think NATO and the US was going to do? What was his true reason for attacking Ossetia? Bush is dumb, but now I think Saakasvili is even more dumb. So dumb they are dangerous.
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Posted By: solifugus @ 08/13/2008 4:38:26 PM
Saakasvili had to respond in some way. The rebel attacks from South Ossetia were intensifying and the only way to stop it was a military sweep. What would negotiations have done? His mistake was how and when. Notice his miscalculations in the claim that Georgian forces were carefully avoiding any damage to the Russian peacekeeping units in the region. That didn't matter--he might as well have directly attacked the Russians.
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Posted By: jblackwell88 @ 08/13/2008 5:27:46 PM
Why don't the Georgians just give independence to South Ossetia? Is freedom for some and not for others? The Georgians committed war crimes by shelling civilians in South Ossetia in a sneak attack, throwing grenades into basements full of children. We bombed the hell out of Yugoslavia for this stuff and created an independent Kosovo. The Russians should have captured the Georgian generals responsible and submitted the case against them to the Hague, the same way we did the Serbs, and then created an independent South Ossetia. The Bush administration apparently doesn't like to use words like "genocide" unless it bolsters their interests in something like... oh how convenient... an oil pipeline.
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Posted By: Jill from Florida @ 08/13/2008 9:57:45 PM
And, as usual, I agree with you, JB. Good point.
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Posted By: Omaar @ 08/13/2008 4:39:36 PM
You are So true...But Sakashvilli is Morte than Dumb...
He's a Little Man with Big Asperations, a Man of Self importance and a Wimp opf a Man, who wants us to be his Thug, his Goon Squad, his Muscle and Guess what...
We are Not and he'd better take his Russian Ass Kicking like a Man and leave Ossetia to the Russians.
John McCain and Joe Lieberman are just as Dumb, if not Dumber than Bush Jr.
Bush is Wise Enough and Young enough, to know that he has a Life ahead of him, after his Presidency and McCain, has nothing to look forward to in his Life, but Illness, Alzheimers, Dementia or a Withering Away Death, or a Retirement Village- Convalsecent Care Center, so he does not care that Russia and America can only Blow Eachother off the face of the Earth and Russia has the Largest, Stockpile of Nuclear Weapons on Earth !! Not to mention their Ally (China)
John McCain is a man with Nothing to Lose, face facts, John "Semi-Senile McCain, is a Very, Very Dangerous Man...Indeed !!
The Georgian People should Oust this Clown and Soon !!!
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Posted By: Omaar @ 08/13/2008 8:07:55 PM
-----------------------------------
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/13/mccains-top-foreign-polic_n_118743.html
John McCain's Lobbyist Buddy Randy Scheunemann a Mccain Campaign Cronie was a ....Georgian Lobbyist for YEARS !!!
WASHINGTON ??? John McCain's chief foreign policy adviser and his business partner lobbied the senator or his staff on 49 occasions in a 3 1/2-year span while being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by the government of the former Soviet republic of Georgia.
The payments raise ethical questions about the intersection of Randy Scheunemann's personal financial interests and his advice to the Republican presidential candidate who is seizing on Russian aggression in Georgia as a campaign issue.
McCain warned Russian leaders Tuesday that their assault in Georgia risks "the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world."
On April 17, a month and a half after Scheunemann stopped working for Georgia, his partner signed a $200,000 agreement with the Georgian government. The deal added to an arrangement that brought in more than $800,000 to the two-man firm from 2004 to mid-2007. For the duration of the campaign, Scheunemann is taking a leave of absence from the firm.
"Scheunemann's work as a lobbyist poses valid questions about McCain's judgment in choosing someone who _ and whose firm _ are paid to promote the interests of other nations," said New York University law professor Stephen Gillers. "So one must ask whether McCain is getting disinterested advice, at least when the issues concern those nations."
"If McCain wants advice from someone whose private interests as a once and future lobbyist may affect the objectivity of the advice, that's his choice to make."
McCain has been to Georgia three times since 1997 and "this is an issue that he has been involved with for well over a decade," said McCain campaign spokesman Brian Rogers.
McCain's strong condemnation in recent days of Russia's military action against Georgia as "totally, absolutely unacceptable" reflects long-standing ties between McCain and hardline conservatives such as Scheunemann, an aide in the 1990s to then-Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott.-
Posted By: Jill from Florida @ 08/13/2008 9:53:17 PM
Go to a different site to post your ridiculous political blogs.
For you info - Obama has over 300 foreign relations advisers. His #1 adviser is none other than Mr Brzezenski. It is his President Carter that will be remembered for the Iran takeover of the US embassy - because we followed Brzezenski's advise. His advise also included giving weapons to Osama bin Liden and the Talibans - that ended well too, didn't it? Does Al Queda ring a bell? 9/11? Thank Obama's adviser for that.
Obama's advisers scare me more than George W Bush. (Even Saakashvili would be better.)
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Posted By: JohnCarlos @ 08/13/2008 9:34:02 PM
Russians are nothing but vodka-siphoning agresssive bullies who never cease to convince the world otherwise. For decades Soviet Union raped its nearby smaller countries out of their food and treasure while keeping them under its oppressive boot. Russia's no different now. Soviet Union, Russia, same vermin, different name. No wonder Russia is despised and disrespected by most of its neighbors.Can't trust Russia
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Posted By: Jill from Florida @ 08/13/2008 9:40:37 PM
Most of that time, the Soviet Union was under the leadership of Stalin (1922 - 1953). Stalin, a resident of Gori, Georgia, is still revered as their most (in)famous citizen - his statue was the meeting place for the Georgian troops before going into South Ossetia - and the house Stalin lived in is their proud museum. Perhaps Saakashvili has genocide in his genes, as it was Stalin who ordered the mass killing of the Polish people. Stalin was ruthless - but a leader, Saakashvili is ruthless, ignorant and a coward.
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Posted By: Questions2 @ 08/13/2008 7:43:38 PM
Russia has agreed to both sides withdrawing their armies only because it has no intention of pulling its forces out. It sees an opportunity to make Georgia disarm unilaterally. Russia will claim that its army in Georgia is peacekeepers, policemen or voluntary militia of the South Ossetians and keep it in. The only way to ensure that both sides withdraw their armies is to send in an international peacekeeping force, no member of which is from Russia, Georgia or any group in Caucasus. That force should have the arms and authority to enforce withdrawal of armies.
Georgia was the lightning rod for Eastern Europe. Russia focused its economic, propagandistic and military bullying on Georgia, lightening the pressure on countries of Eastern Europe. In the 1990s Russian military planes were flying over the Baltic states and Russia imposing trade sanctions on them. After the Rose Revolution in Georgia this activity shifted there. Now that the lightning rod is broken Eastern European countries should expect a lot more economic and military trouble from Russia.
An old anecdote from the post-communist countries: An American, a German and a Russian are boasting in a bar. The American says: ???On my farm I drive a Ford, when I go to work I drive a Lincoln and when I go abroad I drive a Cadillac.??? The German answers: ???When I am at home, I drive a Volkswagen, at work I drive a Mercedes and in other countries I drive a BMW.??? The Russian says: ???I drive a Zhaporozhets at home and a tractor at work.??? ???And when you go to another country???? the others ask. ???When I go to another country I drive a tank,??? the Russian answers.-
Posted By: jblackwell88 @ 08/13/2008 9:37:16 PM
In recent history I would say the USA alone has invalidated the premise of the joke.
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