Russia is a mere shell of the former Soviet Union, right?
Yeah, because half of them live here in the US now....
Russia is a mere shell of the former Soviet Union, right?
Yeah, because half of them live here in the US now....
Absolutely! And more people ignore this 4th Reich, more powerfull and scary will Russia get; Muslim Fundamentalizm and Al Qaeda are dwarfed by Russian Autocracy - not since Hitler anyone tried to make such a blzy move - invade another country and tell the world - got f*** youselves! What's really scary is that Russia made Europe dependent on the ENERGY, no wonder nobody has any balls to stand up to Putin! I'm a democrat by I miss Reagan! He would have said Mr. Putin - get your troops out of Georgia, or we will fast-track them to NATO and then you'll have to deal with us!
You comapre Russia to to a "4th Reich"? You clearly do not have a clue insofar as history is concerned. FYI...Russia lost close to 26 million in WWII fighting the Nazi's, that's more than any other nation's losses. Another thing Genius, we are messing around in Russia's neighborhood - ever recall the Cuban Missile Crisis? Read up...
No, they don't have a clue, and they are all drunk in the Neo Con wine of war and oil.
oh, don't lie, please. all more or less educated people understand that it wasn't russian agression. and it' none of your bussiness, america. look what u did to Iraq. we're not gonna do the same. I thought neewsweek would tell the whole truth about georgia, like russian newsweek.
Almost half of the people here in the United States I am guessing have no idea whatsoever about any of this. They also have been fed a diet of slant and stale. The way MSM works is anything that they can get 2 people to say, goes on the air. Georgia had government people to brief the press, staged events like Saakashvili running from imaginary Russian planes, etc. CNNand Fox went hard fascist with their coverage and ate the government line completely. Fox because it is their job as the GOP house organ, and CNN for ratings. After all, even the CNN crew knows a great story, and how to keep the truth from messing it up.
From an American who wished for better, I am sorry. I wish my government had the interests of humankind in their hearts. They do not. They walk without God and pretend to be pious. It makes good business sense to them.
Anny, there are different opinions in America also. May be not too many but nevetheless.
BBC writes about Gorgia starting. And also writes of gorgian's opinion that U.Ossetia started: gorgia just tired of ossetia's attacs. :)
However let blame no gorgian people: i suppose they tired of wars indeed.
At this stage, BRINKMANSHIP is necessary for NATO & Russia to practice to show to their respective citizens that the interests and principles they are fighting for are honorable. As news coverage fades, BACK CHANNELING -the tested and proven solution to most crisis - will take over. The Balkan crisis is too small to start a cold war. Terrorism, energy sufficiency, food security are the most important concerns of all nations.
That's all rational, and I do not see enough rational out of either side. As for Back Channels, Ivan has been just about screaming for 4-5 years now that enough is enough. Ivan has been enraged by our moving to make him a strategic cripple and sticking Bushy missiles into him like suppositories, largely to bind his enemies to us. Back Channels only work if the idiots on our side can take a clue, get a hint, or read a tea leaf... etc. Ours blindly push ahead with agenda and let events determine course. They are stupid, Rice, Bush and the crew. Breatakingly stupid.
A fellow gorgiian girl, whose mother were in Gorgia while war proceeded gives here vision: 6 hours S.Ossetia shooted to Gorgia (with misseles also), Made greate damage, than Gorgia answered. Than Russia answered. And both sides lost much less people than we are said. (and i inclain to belive that number of lost is indeed less). But building damage is great.
Now we have to listen S. Ossetia opinion.
oh, don't lie, please. all more or less educated people understand that it wasn't russian agression. and it' none of your bussiness, america. look what u did to Iraq. we're not gonna do the same. I thought neewsweek would tell the whole truth about georgia, like russian newsweek.
In this article it has been stressed again and again that Russia has mad the aggresson. So far all the reports had been that it was Georgia made the first step to occuppy South Ossetia which invited Russian agression. Either it must have been a miscalculation on the part of Georgia that US and West will come to its rescue or it also could have been to bait Russia to make an agression and make it a villain in the eyes of the whole world. It will pave the way for US for landing its marines or whatever armed forces and stay put in Gergia to protect it from Russia. That is to have a permanent base at the under belly of Russia.
The alacrity with which the US/Poland missile shield agreement was signed is surely to surround Russia and start the second Cold War. If the missile shield was to deterr Iran it could have been placed in Germany a Nato country with the same effect. Putting it in Poland is just to taunt Russia. If someone fights for oil it can be understood. It is the question of survival. Stoking up the cold war has no meaning.
Just unleash Germany, maybe Russia will think twice then.
We did unleash Germany. They run from fire all over Afghanistan. Ivan knows this, he has been watching. Ivan has watched NATO tangle in his backyard since 9/11, and even helped us out. Ivan obviously knows how much of that Germany there is in Germany.
RUSSIA IS BEHIND ON MILITARY TECHNOLOLGY...HA !!!
RUSSIA IS LAUGHING AT US...WE'RE THE ONES WITH ONGOING WARS IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ, WITH ALL OUR MODERN MILITARY TECHNOLOGY, WHY ARE WE STILL THERE AND THE CARNAGE CONTINUES..HUH
RUSSIA COUL'VE FED US FILM OF THEIR DEFEAT IN AFGHANISTAN, TO LEARN A VALUABLE LESSON. WITH ALL OUR MILITARY, AN CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY, WHY ARE WE NOT FIGHTING IN RUSSIA'S BACKYARD AND STEAMROLLING THEM INTO DEFEAT OR WHY HAV'NT WE BEATEN THESE (2) BACKWARD COUNTRIES IRAQ & AGHANISTAN INTO SUBMISSION IN LESS THAN A YEAR..HUH
5 YEARS, 5 YEARS AND WE HAVE THE LARGE NUMBERS, THE VERY BEST TRAINED, THE BEST EQUIPMENT, THE BEST TECHNOLOGY AND THE THE SUPERIOR NUMBERS.
WE KNOW BETTER....RUSSIA HAS ONE OF THE LARGEST OF STOCKPILE MISSILES IN THE WORLD.
YOU SIDELINE CHEERLEADING SISSY'S KEEP BELIEVING THOSE STAR WARS MOVIES, INDEPENDENCE DAY MOVIE WITH WILL SMITH AND JEFF GOLDBLUM...
THE REST OF US, KNOW BETTER.
TECHNOLGY, LARGE MILITARY NUMBERS IN BOTH IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN AND THEY STILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT BACK AND THEY STILL WON'T RUN FOR (5 YRS.)
OH YEAH, WE'RE SUPERIOR TO THOSE 2 COUNTRIES...PUH-LEASE !!!
SPARE ME AND THE FREE WORLD, YOUR BLIND, NAIEVE AND NARROW MINDED OPINIONS ON HOW SOPHISTICATED AND ADVANCED OUR MILITARY IS, TO THE FREE WORLD.
NOW THROW IN CHINA, AFTER THE OLYMPICS, WE'LL HERE FROM HU JIN TAO, WHO CONFERRING WITH PUTIN AND MEDVEDEV, DAILY.
REMEBER LAST YEAR'S CHINA NAD RUSSIAN JOINT MILITART EXCERCISES..HUH
CHINA WILL SOUND OFF ON THIS CONFLICT, AFTER THE OLYMPICS, SOON AFTER, I WILL ASSURE YOU AND IT WILL NOT FAVOR US, AT ALL.
JUST THINK, RUSSIA & CHINA AGAINST THE USA..
THE NUCLEAR MIGHT, ECONOMIC MIGHT AND MILITARY MIGHT.
THANK THE 5 PAST PRESIDENTS, INCLUDING BBUSH JR. FOR GIVING CHINA UNLIMITED ACCESS TO CLASSIFIED INFORMATION AND MASSIVE ECONOMIC STIMULATION. RUSSIA SUPPLIES THE WORLD WITH GAS AND OIL AS WELL, WITH AMERICA BEING A RECEPIENT OF RUSSIA'S NATURAL RESOURCES.
The reason we are still there is because our military is fighting with both its hands tied behind its back. When there is an insurgency while you as the liberator cannot use the same methods as the insurgents, you should lower play somewhat on par with them. Meaning some stupid international and domestic laws have to be overlooked. The laws which bind our military to its current predicament where meant to be used in a conflict where both sides played according to the rules.
The reason we are still there is some feel we need to fix what we broke. (Colin Powell theorem, which is reasonable) We are not there because anyone had their hands tied behind their back. We have slaughtered more Arab with fewer troops over a wider battlespace than any imagined... brillaintly.
What we have not done is any of the smart diplomatic things that prevent wars or hasten peace. Eventually you have to stop killing people and start talking.
Facing another cold war? Get real, it's a done deal. A done, freaking, deal.
It began after 2004 with the Dioxin job on Yuvschenko, we just chose to ignore that and other things. We got past Old Ivan's comfort zone at the Ukraine. Georgia really blew his top. Redneck 'screw-em' foreign policy only works so long. Ivan started bomber patrols again a few months ago, etc. There have been diplomats dismissed from Moscow on tit-for tats with Britain I believe... yes simmer to low boil for a long while, and noone tried to mitigate any of that.
Condi let it fester into violence. At best, incompetent, at worst by design.
Oh the fossils got their cold war for McCain. After needing Leibermann to remind him repeatedly about the players on the field in Iraq, they have fed old McStupid a list of enemies he remembers. McStupid even has a Georgian lobbyist whispering in his ear.
You Republicans have no limit on your filth, and the Democrats no limit on their timidity in challenging it.
It's strange that Russia is allowing Putin to try to unify Russia the old communist way and risk Cold War II, after the bitter lesson Russia learned about Cold War I (all you get is a bunch of client states which are broke and ran by despotic revolutionarys and radicals!).
Now the incursion did excite American radicals around the country to wage the AMERICANS SUCK FIRST campaign banner, like a toilet plunger festooned with toilet paper streamers and a hearty "YESWECAN!"
But for Russia the demonstration will be over soon and it be faced with not only having it's own internal problems with islamo-terrorists but also the lose of western sypathy and possible assistance with that problem. Add to that a Cold War and all that was about.
And Russia be on the wrong side of history, again!
Dear Thehappyamerican, compleetly agree: we do not need CW II.
1. How do you think did Gorgia know the fire would be answered? It seems more possible that Knew and supposed it wouldn't stay without answer as it usualy happens in history (if we keep in mind that territory was a "hot point" and russian peasekeepers were dwelling there and our relations was 'hot") . Did little and uprotected Giorgia (in fact by it's own might at the face of more strong Russia) dare firing UNLESS it was sure about protection and approve of somebody more powerful ? And Who that Protector was? And whose support Saakashvili is reseving now regardles his startin firing?
2. All the news shouted " Russia invaded Gorgia!" And somehow just couple days later rare lines in newspapers mentioned muttering that Gorgia also had done something. How did it happen that firing stayed unnoticed? I compleetly sure that governores was not so innosantly anaware of what was goin on. Modern technic, sattelites, numerous FSB, FBS and so on on on... But governores could reveal NO infomation that was not to be revealed for majority of population. Not to be revealed in order ...? It is not population's matter in order why.
Conclusions: And Russia'd done what was anticipated it would do. And i personally feel somebody very glad he has more and more reason to cry - DESTROY THEM! BEARS! BEARS!
Gays, we do not want Cold War, but WHY DO YOU HATE US? WHYYYYYY???!!!!
Yelyena,
The Neo Conservative people need enemies and hatred to keep people patriotic and scared. Georgia shot first. That is just starting to sink into some very thick skulls. By starting this now with Russia, Bush got his missile deal with Poland, Bush made Medvedev look weak as Putin came home to save the day, and for most of the war, people could tell you exactly when Mark Phelps would swim again, but not what was happening in a place called Georgia, that is not an old Confederate State. (There are probably people crawling all over the woods down there looking for rooskies.)
These are power-pigs who did these things. Oil people. People who lie, cheat and steal in the name of 4th quarter profits.
Few of them have any military experience. The business people who do have Military experience, like the Fed Ex CEO, know that the current DoD budget is almost half-spent guarding oil. Oil. Since 1991, there has been one defining strategic objective: economic and military dominance of a filthy, toxic, nasty substance we are killing our world with.
Old happy likes things as they are, and doesn't care about consequences, costs, blood, treasure, image, prestige, and other issues that dominate mature discussions. Happy just wants to wave the flag or bloody shirt and wallow in hate. It's easy.
I think my reply got cut off when I tried to copy/paste...
Your statement:
"These are power-pigs who did these things. Oil people. People who lie, cheat and steal in the name of 4th quarter profits"
and saying that a person "doesn't care about consequences, costs, blood, treasure" and wants to wave a bloody shirt"
Isn't that hate/fear mongering?
The fact is, the modern world does require oil. Oil is used in the powerplant that is keeping your comuter running. It is a neccessary resource. I'll agree that we need to transition to renwable energy sources, but demonizing an industry that produces/delivers a product that is crucial to our (and most every other country's) way of life just because the news or marxist politicians say it is so is simply rediculous.
No marxist taught me to recognize a fascist.
"The United States and Western Europe have flailed about, ultimately unable to check Russia's unabashed aggression" Mr. Adrew Bast is blind in both eyes. The US is the aggresor because it instigated the recent conflict in Georgia. The US is also the aggresor in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia and Latin America. Russia is only responding to the agression and defending itself against the US hegemony. Look who wants to install missiles close to Russia? Mr. Bast don't pretend to be stupid!
Kind Sir! He is hardly 'pretending to be stupid.' The man is an achiever!
The Bush regime would like us to forget that it was Georgia that attacked small independent Ossetia. Mr. Bush simply wants to prop up the puppet government that he and the neo-con corporations have installed so that they can use Georgia for oil transport and their own greedy needs. It is a sad time in the USA when one can trust the Russians more that the ???Resident??? of the White House.
you idiots, Georgians never attacked anybody. show me 2000 dead bodies.
When you shoot MLRS systems into cheap Soviet apartment blocks, you don't get 2000 bodies, you get tens of thousands of bits. Most no bigger than a few ounces. This time of year, after a week, Tshkinvali has to smell like a giant tomb. What did those sleeping people do to deserve this, no matter the political or great power issues?
Why did the side that openly comitted an atrocity get a free pass? Oil.
I never saw 6000 dead after 11/09/01 - may i call you Idiot also?
We were not shown a line of 2000 caskets, but we heard people (ossetian), who talked of rescuing thier life in the basemetn jst in time while others were drawn out of the house and simply shooted down. We heard a guy who saw his naibour blow up in his car by bomb. Have you been shown gorgians who blamed Saakashvily and spoke they didn't want that war? - I suppose you weren't. i quite belive them. I don't want war myself. DO YOU WANT KILL? IF you want - GO ON, BLAME OTHERS IN THE SAME WISH. But remembet of phsyhology - proection (hope i've written it rigth) - we blame others in what we are guilty ourself.
I dont think any country would stand back if they saw there people been attacked whilst they are sleeping. To be honest I think 99% of people know the truth behind this war! and to scared to admit that Russia stood by its people and did what it was saposed to do. To me this is sick as the people behind this know who they are but luckely the man above knows the truth and will stick by Russia for saving its people.
have you forgotten geogia did not invade russia they attacked a part of thier own country? remember the civil war a war among americans? No country had the right then to invade us to make thier own statement.
Georgia lost them both and sued for peace in the 90's. Losing multiple wars hardly creates a better claim under international law. I think you can kiss off Abkhazia and S Ossetia now, I doubt Sarkosy is going to go Napoleonic with the European negotiations, or listen to Shrub or Condi. France remembers going deep into Russia. Only a stupid idiot would commit to relieve a country that opened a war slaughtering civilians.
I keep wondering what the Russians are thinking. Their strategic nuclear forces are in terrible shape. My understanding is that they can hardly keep ONE balistic missile submarine at sea. Their aircraft and navy are at least three generations behind the West's. And finally, their early warning sattelites are half blind from disrepair. If push came to shove, the US could decapitate the Russian governemt befor they realized what had happend.And that, as they say, would be that.
Russia is not going to do anything that would require the West to start a Cold War. Their response to the Georgian aggression certainly was not something like that.
They are not hurry to withdraw, but I think it just their way to show a finger to the US. They basically making Americans to choose: either they believe their President calling Russia an aggressor. And that means that US is so weak and helpless that they could not do ANYTHING to stop it. Both of which is not true.
Or Americans should understand that their President is trying to mislead them into thinking that Russia did something bad, whereas it did not.
Ilia,
I honestly believe this was an October-suprise that hatched early and produced poor results. McCain needs wars and boogiemen to make himself relevant. Rice is trying to drag Europe into the rage of some former time, for temporary political gain. Bush got his Poland deal, McCain got the war his adviser has been bought to provide... (This guy sold us Achmed Chalabi and the Iraqi National Congress. It was not Iraqi, not National, and not a Congress.) McCain has accepted the Neo Con mantle and policies. He is defending an agressor state for a lobbyist. This lobbyist sells wars of agression in Oil rich places. Interpol should start a file on him. I am sure that there are 2000 counts of conspiracy to commit murder with state ordinance, for the Rocket attacks on Civilians in Tshkinvali. Since the United States Senate is a laughable institution that wont stop these ruthless animals, maybe a dose of Law could restrain them.
I think Saakashvili is a criminal. We are just wondering if he will 'get-it' through radioactive tea, dioxin, Makarov... heheh. Now if he rots in old Slobodan's cell in the Hague until time ends, I think it would be to the shame of these neocons that their stooge was a symbol of international condemnation. I would cheer that. Most Americans are very patriotic, and we love our country, right or wrong. I love mine enough to recognize when we make mistakes in the hopes we wont go there again.
Well I hope none of those new MiRVed Topol systems come flying over the Icecap. They maintain a credible stockpile that can be shot. We would not be able to solve all of their stuff now. Sometime between 2012-2015, we may have the National Technical means to defeat a massed incoming ballistic missile threat, but not now. We still live well within Mutually Assured Destruction. As far as ballistic missile early warning, Ivan has enough assets to detect a launch against them, in time to even absorb hits and return fire. That is why the vehicle mounted systems are featured in Ivan's stash. Ivan has 11 time zones to stick these in sheds, hillsides, etc. We have about 5300 shootable warheads on a number of systems that can ride out a first strike, and shoot. (When our stupid Air Force, I a retiree thereof, can account for all of their stash... We really need SAC back...) Anyhow, Ivan can thump us, so you might want to check yourself there.
Conventry please read...
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/US_Venezuelas_Russia_fleet_invite_is_curious_999.html
Coventry please read....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/24/russia.usa?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront
Get real. The US cannot even win war in Iraq. Unlike Iraq, Russia does have WMD and they would not hesitate it if being attacked. Even if the US created some missile defense system that may intercept 99% nukes in far future, remaining 1% would be enough to destroy everything in the US. So, I believe, the US and NATO are not going to start a new war any time soon.
yelyena i spent time in the military during the cold war.times during which the soviet union would use force first then reason later. The russia of now had no bussiness in geogia teritory to start with If you want the hate to stop Russia must allow all the states they took with force to be truly free to govern themselves and to make thier own mistakes without fear of invasion which has now been proved to be a real concern America has a great interest in aiding its allies military and otherwise if russia continues to push there will be no choice but to wage a war that an outdated militry force no matter the numbers on paper can win since it will be air and sea primarily. Rapid withdrawl and a statement that we will allow our neighbors to self govern would keep the peace =and allow the world to grow..
Who Started Cold War II ?
http://antiwar.com/pat/index_pat.html
John McCain's War Experience, via the Russia-Georgia SetUp, Did Not Work..At All and Neither will John McCain's attempt at the Presidency of the USA.
by Patrick J. Buchanan
The American people should be eternally grateful to Old Europe for having spiked the Bush-McCain plan to bring Georgia into NATO.
Had Georgia been in NATO when Mikheil Saakashvili invaded South Ossetia, we would be eyeball to eyeball with Russia, facing war in the Caucasus, where Moscow's superiority is as great as U.S. superiority in the Caribbean during the Cuban missile crisis.
If the Russia-Georgia war proves nothing else, it is the insanity of giving erratic hotheads in volatile nations the power to drag the United States into war.
From Harry Truman to Ronald Reagan, as Defense Secretary Robert Gates said, U.S. presidents have sought to avoid shooting wars with Russia, even when the Bear was at its most beastly.
Truman refused to use force to break Stalin's Berlin blockade. Ike refused to intervene when the Butcher of Budapest drowned the Hungarian Revolution in blood. LBJ sat impotent as Leonid Brezhnev's tanks crushed the Prague Spring. Jimmy Carter's response to Brezhnev's invasion of Afghanistan was to boycott the Moscow Olympics. When Brezhnev ordered his Warsaw satraps to crush Solidarity and shot down a South Korean airliner killing scores of U.S. citizens, including a congressman, Reagan did â?????? nothing.
These presidents were not cowards. They simply would not go to war when no vital U.S. interest was at risk to justify a war. Yet, had George W. Bush prevailed and were Georgia in NATO, U.S. Marines could be fighting Russian troops over whose flag should fly over a province of 70,000 South Ossetians who prefer Russians to Georgians.
The arrogant folly of the architects of U.S. post-Cold War policy is today on display. By bringing three ex-Soviet republics into NATO, we have moved the U.S. red line for war from the Elbe almost to within artillery range of the old Leningrad.
Look, I am an American and Career Military guy. Bush/Cheney/Condi completely blew this, and it is our generations bay-of-pigs. Bush needed the thinnest of international to the troops in Iraq and got Georgians to do it for him. For a battalion of good troops, Bush created in the minds of these people an entitlement to full U.S. protection. We also have run 3 pipelines through this country to get revenue from under Russia.
For almost two decades since the fall of the wall, we have unilaterally pursued policies against Russia. Paybacks are hard. They had people freezing in the winter, while we were bombing their Serb cousins. They went through a Great Depresion during Yeltsin's stupor. We had it easy. Americans have not faced such here in ages.
This has been a horrible Neo-Con mess up. What has been sad was watching the press coddle this idito Saakashvili, who tried his damn best to get WWIII started attacking not just S. Ossetia, but Sochi. Most Americans have no idea about Sochi.
Russia has a mediocre PR machine, did very poorly in the war compared to modern professional forces (Ivan still runs a conscript force) and did not have an integrated battleplan. You wasted Air assets and showed no concept of independent operational flexibility, Airmindedness, etc. That is somewhat excused in that you were sneak attacked, by a Force you should have had Generals wargaming for.
The Bush administration, with the full support of the U.S. Congress, armed, trained and largely financed the Georgian military. It did this although the dangers of war involving these forces were obvious and after the Georgian government had told its own people that these forces were intended for the recovery of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. This makes U.S. responsible for genocide and should face a international court.
Americans are more concerned about the US economy and our own boarder security than the plight of Leningrad! During Cod Wart I americans conserns were the price of fuel, un-employment, and education... same as it will be threw Cold War II. Not Leningrad!
You could move to Leningrad! The shortage of toilet plungers and TP is not as bad these days,since Cold War I ended for Russians!
There is a single reason for a "weak and divided" response from the West: Georgia is not a victim, it was an aggressor. No matter what White House says, the fact is that Georgia started this by invading South Ossetia, killing civilians and Russian peacekeepers in the process.
Russia had responded with an overwhelming force to make Georgian military incapable of waging war -- and quickly. Calling this a "disproportional" use of force is a hypocrisy, as a less definite response would only prolong the fighting and people's suffering.
Politicians in Europe understand that and they don't want to start a new Cold War under a false pretext. No matter how the White House want to help McCain.
It would be easier to see Georgia as the "aggressor" if it were not for attacks like the one in March, in which Georgian policemen were gunned down by Ossetian soldiers. Thats just one example. Russia intentionally provoked this crisis, and Russian troops were already lined up to take advantage of it.
IF the border skirmishes with victims on BOTH sides were the problem -- there were other ways for Georgia to solve it. They could start by signing the non-aggression pact with the break-away provinces, which Russia was asked Georgia for years, and which Georgia refused to do -- until Rice came into Tbilisi a few days ago.
Georgia could formally recognize their independence, as it was clear that there was no way they can establish control over those provinces short of a war.
Georgia could do many other things to calm the things there, if it was its goal. However, Saakashvili made a promise to return those lands, and he was not going to stop until he tries every way possible.
"Russia intentionally provoked this crisis" -- I don't think they were provoking crisis because in their dreams they could not imagine that Georgia could as stupid as to fall for that. Russia has their 58th army, the best one, right across the border for years since the Chechen war -- because Chechnya is right across the border!..
In any case, no border provocations could justify attacking a city with tanks and heavy artillery, killing and wounding hunderds of innocent civilians.
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