Passing the 'fossil fools' in a CNG-powered car
Comment: "Fossil fools"? Are you including yourself under that heading, too? Or does natural gas not come from dinosaur droppings?
Comment: There is a loss of efficiency every time you convert energy from one form to another or transport it. So, using Natural Gas to make electricity to send to homes to charge electric car batteries to discharge them for use to make the wheels go around is a lot less efficient than using Natural Gas directly in vehicles. Not to mention the fact that you can't recharge an electrical vehicle in a few minutes while you can fill a Natural Gas vehicle in a few minutes. NGVs are here today, while electric cars are still not practical.
Comment: Ok, Make a car that can get better than 45 % use of natrural gas, and you will beat the electric car. Good Luck. What you are talking about is a Prius on fuel economy steroids. A whole level better than the present Prius.
While your correct about engergy conversion, but practically you have not done your homework. There is large amount of money involved in making power plants more efficient, and that level of technology has been developed continuouly over tha past 100 years. The large size of this equipment accomadates various things liker recuperatators and secondary burn chambers. Totally impractical in any transportation vehicle short of a sea-going ship.
Spark ignition egnines small enough, and wtih high power density, as found in most cars just do not have good efficiency. The partial load (where we run our cars most of the time) efficiency of the spark igninition piston engine is down around 12 %. Its a basic design limitation of the spark inginition engines that has been researched for many years with only modest improvement. Diesels do better, but without some way to recover braking energy vehicles using Deisels still fall short. Right now, no manufacturer has committted to a Deisel hybrid car. City buses, delivery vehicles and Railroad Switcher Engines are being made this way, however.
Well, you cannot recharge a NG vehicle at home in a few minutes either. At a station, with larger equipment both NG and LIIon battery reenergization are similary quick.
NG vehicles are not here today because of Infrasture. Electric vehicles were available in the 1990's but were squelched. Many of these electric vehicles are still on the road 10 years later with 100's of thousands of miles on them. And of course, you can run an electric vehicle off T-Boone Wind Power, with no more infrastructure than a $10 extension cord.
Comment: Improving the efficiency of vehicles is a good thing. Whether you do that or not, Natural Gas still makes a lot more sense than gasoline for the current generation of vehicles.
Comment: People talking about the hybrid cars always mention their gas mileage. Do they ever figure in the cost to the environment of making the huge batteries they lug around? How about the cost to the environment when those batteries MUST be replaced (3-5 years, according to the manufacters? The old battery becomes toxic waste, and a new battery must be manufactured. all of that contributes to the "green cost" of owning a car. The price of the batteries???? That's going to contribute to the pinch in their pocketbook.
A friend of mine was quite proud to show me her new hybrid Lexus, which she proudly tells me gets 24 mpg on the highway. For ten years, I've driven a honda CRV that gets 28 MPG on the highway. So.........who's more green??? And I have no huge honking battery to buy and discard.
CNG is the cleanest burning natural resource we have. Don't be scared just because you're not that familiar with it.
Comment: Hi Pezled,
Yes, there is enviormental cost of making the traction batteries. But traditional cars go through 3 or 4 lead acid battiers in their life, while a Hybirid car goes through one NiMH battery. If you add up the total used batteried weights, the standard car is about double. And most of that weight is lead, with sulphuric acid throw in on the side. Not beniigh nickel (as in what you lick when you eat your food with stainless steel flatware. NiMH batteries use a caustic electrolyte. Potasium Hydroxide in the Prius. If you take that and mix it with animal fat you get soap. Remember Grannie on the Beverly Hillbillies and her barrel? That is what she was doing. This is a a very big difference from Sulphuric acid used in traditional car batteries. So, your socalled toxic waste turns out to be easily recycled into something you touch and feel everyday - stainless steel and soap.
If your friend tried a little, she will be able to greatly increase her mileage. The HSD system lends itself to hypermiling, as you have done in your CRV. And of course a RX440h is somewhat bigger than a CRV, and has allot more power. Even my Prius is quicker than a CRV, and a RX440h is really quick in comparison to the Prius. So you comparison is illogical. Its like comparing a Mustang to a Prius for gas mileage. Allot of people get 48 mpg in their Prius, just like the EPA says. But with a experience one can easily get 58 mpg. And in your third year of driving it, and using hypermiling 68 mpg is possible on the daily commute, with some slow speed limit routes.
But all this is FUD and not related to the main post. How long do you think NG will last if we start using it at 15 % efficiency rather than 80 %. Not long. And once its gone, the result will be manufactured home heating fuels, at tripple the cost. The reason we have used up allot of the oil is the same. The true issue is transportion fuel efficiency. And changing fuels DOES NOTHING in that regard but dig a hole for the usere of that new fuel.
Comment: I don't know where you get the info that a hybrid car will only need one battery in it's life span. The manufacturer says 3-5 years. I guessing you plan on a lexus to last longer than that. As for not comparing the same types of cars.....well, that is the crux of the problem. Everybody wants to yell about how green they are, but they need a FASTER car than my little ol' CRV. Why? I can go the speed limit on any interstate we have. Why do you need to go faster than that? It's people not being willing to change their "car standard" which is the problem.
As far as natural gas goes - are you even aware of the Barnett Shale discovery, followed by the Haynesville shale discovery? The Barnett shale, located in central Texas was the biggest natural gas find ever......until the Haynesville shale discovery, located in northwest La, East Tx. The Haynesvill shale is 100 times more gas than the Barnett shale. There is much more natural gas to go around than oil, and it can come from American sources, not unfriendly foreign nations. Natural gas is not about to run out.
Comment: Please, pezled, show us where AN Y manufacturer of hybrids states that they'll last only 3 to 5 years. You are simply making that up, and it is blatantly untrue. ALL hybrids sold in the US have AT LEAST an 8yr/80,000 mile warranty on ALL HYBRID COMPONENTS, INCLUDING THE HYBRID BATTERY. Those sold in California and the 5 other "clean" states require a 10yr/150,000 mile warranty on those same components. Get your facts straight before slamming battery-hybrid technology. It is serving a useful purpose TODAY. No massive refueling infrastructure costs necessary. Don't be scared just because you know little about the technology...
Comment: The Honda Civic GX is NOT a road trip car, nor is it good for 4 people with any amount of 'stuff'.
www.cngprices.com is the only station guide worth anything.
Natural Gas is also a RENEWABLE energy source, Methane being produced by every landfill and wastewater plant. This gas used to be used for power generation, but some projects now add that gas to the petroleum Natural Gas supply.
Pickens is right -- CNG is the best fuel for cars and trucks. Wind, Solar, Nuclear and Geothermal should be developed to free-up Natural Gas for vehicle use.
You should have interviewed a CNG car user/enthusiast like me before your trip. You could have avoided a lot of problems.
We bought our GXs 4 years ago when they were only available as fleet cars (as were all models until the Honda GX started being sold at retail in 2006). We have since added a Chevy Cavalier which goes 160 miles on CNG and then switches to a 350 mile gasoline supply. Great for road trips (but still short on trunk space).
You can avoid the video each time if you use the code it displays the first time with each card. It works all the time for me.
Two stations in San Diego have bathrooms, a mini mart and gas stations, but most don't.
Comment: Besides, if the vehicle is only 15 % efficient, how long do you think your local Mount Trashsmore NG resource will last? Not long. In rural India, they have a cow or two, and a biogas digester in the back yard. To just provide the gas needed for cooking, these biogas digesters are 20 foot in diameter, and 10 feet high. Now multiply that by 10 for the tyipical American single car commute.
Comment: Hi freedml,
So how do we get that NG to the consumer? At most oil wells in remote places NG is flared off. And so it goes for many landfils, although around here when teenagers run up the Mount Trashmore and light the NG pipe, the fire deparment is dispatched to go put it out. . What if it was turned into electicity and put on the eletrical grid? All one has to do is run a wire to the Landfil, wire that may already be there. And then run the electricity over to an electric car. Problem solved. The alternative to getting what amounts to sewer gas into the NG lines that feed houses is dramatically different in cost and remanufacture of the gas to remove hazordous substances.
Comment: Hi Karen,
The problem is energy usage. Which is tightly coupled to energy efficiency. Cars are only 15 % efficient in metropolitan trafficl. Home heating is better than 75 % efficient. Do we piss our home heating fuel down the drain,, so people can continue to run comute in 3 ton vehicles - one person at a time. Or do we improve the improve the vehicle efficiency to 30 % (ala Prius)? The answer is clear. Pickets plan is no plan, its a way to make us pay more for home heating. Which we have NO choice regarding. Versus transportation, which we have a variety of versatile solutions for (car pooling, hybrids, electric vehicles, mass transportation, human powered).
Comment: Hi Karen,
The problem is energy usage. Which is tightly coupled to energy efficiency. Cars are only 15 % efficient in metropolitan trafficl. Home heating is better than 75 % efficient. Do we piss our home heating fuel down the drain,, so people can continue to run comute in 3 ton vehicles - one person at a time. Or do we improve the improve the vehicle efficiency to 30 % (ala Prius)? The answer is clear. Pickets plan is no plan, its a way to make us pay more for home heating. Which we have NO choice regarding. Versus transportation, which we have a variety of versatile solutions for (car pooling, hybrids, electric vehicles, mass transportation, human powered).
Comment: Hi Karen,
The problem is energy usage. Which is tightly coupled to energy efficiency. Cars are only 15 % efficient in metropolitan trafficl. Home heating is better than 75 % efficient. Do we piss our home heating fuel down the drain,, so people can continue to run comute in 3 ton vehicles - one person at a time. Or do we improve the improve the vehicle efficiency to 30 % (ala Prius)? The answer is clear. Pickets plan is no plan, its a way to make us pay more for home heating. Which we have NO choice regarding. Versus transportation, which we have a variety of versatile solutions for (car pooling, hybrids, electric vehicles, mass transportation, human powered).
Comment: Yep, my mom works for state, and the vehicles they rent from hertz are always both CNG and Gasoline, usually a Chevy Cavalier or Dodge Stratus, but they are never filled with CNG they always have good old regular 85 octane.
Actually GM has been using the whole regenerative breaking for sometime now, their first version of the hybrid truck utilized it, and their mild hybrids all utilize it, their upcoming two-stage hybrid systemuses it, and the Chevy Volt will be using it as well. It might just be cheaper to (for now) skip over CNG and straight to plug-ins like the Volt. For some people who don't drive more than 40 miles per day (those who work in town or only in the next town) will only use fuel when they take that long trip down to So-Cal, and even then, the Volt is expected to have a range of 300+ miles with the range extender where the fuel in the tank is only used to power the generator to keep the battery charged, under this system your car is always directly powered by electricity, and therefore you use less fuel, since all it is used for is a generator. Also, the Volt utilizes a very flexible system (GM calls E-Flex) and it can be modified to run on various forms of energy, from gas to, Ethanol, to Hydrogen, I'm sure if there was enough demand to warrant it, that they be able to convert it to CNG if necessary.
CNG is great, but if the infrastructure isn't there yet after 10 years of being on the market (albeit it was tiny blip on the radar), odds are it probably won't be a viable option without having to spend boat loads of money (of which would probably voter demanded at some point and would cost us tax dollars).
Comment: There isnt a card in south asia that is NOT running on CNG.. why are we so slow migrating to this cleaner and cheaper fuel..
Comment: I remember back in the 80s 90 s they tried this I worked for a large utility (telco) that was going to convert to cng while on a coffee break i parked next to a couple of Peoples Gas trucks not one was a CNG so I asked if THEY were converting to CNG ? it is now 2008 the Natural Gas company still hasn[t converted THEIR trucks /Vehicals to CNG yet so how long is this %^&&*()_ going to go on? conservation better fuel ecomomy is the answer once we convert to CNG there will be a shortage and a rise in prices by then it's too late to reconvert and the CNG co/s have us over a Barrel
Comment: It still pzzles me why someone hasnt figured out how to use battery power with generators that run off the wheels of the vehicle ... I remeber when i was a kid i had a light that ran off my bicycle tire mmmmmm that was over 40 years ago.... What seems to be the problem figuring that out
Comment: The first rule of energy is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The light on your bicycle didn't run off the wheels turning-- it ran off your legs pumping the pedals that turned the chain that made the wheels turn. Think you can pump enough to push your car down the road???
Comment: They do use that to recharge the car battery. That is what the alternator does.
Comment: It still pzzles me why someone hasnt figured out how to use battery power with generators that run off the wheels of the vehicle ... I remeber when i was a kid i had a light that ran off my bicycle tire mmmmmm that was over 40 years ago.... What seems to be the problem figuring that out
Comment: To convert America to significant natural gas would require about $1T in infrastructure investment.
If this is a solution it is a "long term" solution which means we have to put up with oil for 10-20 years.
Look at it this way: We have 200M cars. We buy about 15M a year. Not all of those would be natural gas. Therefore, we must have secure oil supplies for at least 20 years.
And, you have got to get the power plants off natural gas or we will just use natural gas up like we have oil.
Comment: You forget the greatest advantage of CNG: If you convert a large vehicle or truck to run on CNG, you have lots of space and fuel that is dirt cheap, and you are not giving your money to Terrorists.
Comment: The same trip in my Prius would have used less than 10 gallons of gasoline, about half the cost of her trip,
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