The Democrats and the Abortion Wars

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  • Posted By: neos @ 10/07/2008 5:44:30 PM

    The Democratic platform will stop the disasterous economic and education policies of the last 8 years that have brought an increase in abortions during the Bush years. Fighting poverty, making health care available to all, and age appropriate sex education will accomplish more than self-righteous calls for re-criminalization ever will.

  • Posted By: wendydk @ 10/07/2008 1:48:49 PM

    Jose52: You and others of your ilk are mindless conservative automotons. "Above my pay grade" means that only God can truly determine when life begins...the fact that you think you should be able to determine that fact is blasphemy.

    This country's reputation and economy are already destroyed, thanks to the man you put in office in each of the last two elections. We're going to fix that.

  • Posted By: Jose52 @ 10/07/2008 9:37:38 AM

    Obama is avoiding the issue and recently claimed he is Pro-Life. His lies are mounting and if elected, he will change the fabric of this country. He will try to spend and spend to change this economy. He is talking benefits; while the country is on the brink of collapse. He will be the BIG Brother to stop the Right's radio speech with the fairness doctrine. Then he will start with REPARATIONS to all blacks. His Marxist policies will destroy this country and our economy.

  • Posted By: Krohn @ 10/06/2008 5:53:01 PM

    The Antichrist!:
    When George Soros failed to obtain the election of his candidate, John Kerry, in 2004, he brooded for a while, even said he might get out of politics altogether, but he just couldn???t stop himself. He has stated publicly that he wishes to burst the ???bubble of American supremacy,??? because he says our preeminence in the world is a detriment to global ???equilibrium.??? So far, he has failed, but he keeps on trying.

    And Mr. Soros has made no secret either of the fact that he sees the shortest way to effect political shake-ups, what he terms ???regime changes,??? is through very difficult economic conditions.

    America has not yet felt the full force of Soros style economic shock treatment. But others have.

    Soros made his first billion in 1992 by shorting the British pound with leveraged billions in financial bets, and became known as the man who broke the Bank of England. He broke it on the backs of hard-working British citizens who immediately saw their homes severely devalued and their life savings cut drastically in comparative worth almost overnight.

    When the Asian Financial Crisis of 1997 threatened to spread globally, George Soros was right in the thick of it. Soros was accused by the Malaysian Prime Minister of causing the collapse with his monetary machinations, and he was branded in Thailand as an ???economic war criminal??? who ???sucks the blood from the people.??? Right in the middle of this crisis, Soros dashed off his book, The Crisis of Global Capitalism, which demanded a ???third way??? toward economic stability.

    Wake up, America, before it is too late!!!!

  • Posted By: leighjamesleigh @ 08/28/2008 7:49:46 AM

    Abortion is not an issue and only takes away from the important issues that are wrecking this country, the middle and working class and the economy as a whole. Abortion is a woman's choice and should only be a medical option early in the pregnancy unless for dire medical reasons. The woman will suffer the consequences. Abortion is an easy cause to be involved in because it involves no real involvement, people picture a beautiful baby, the feel they are saving this beautiful child and it stops there. If they are really interested in helping children, they should volunteer to help single pregnant mothers, pregnant teenagers, and child abuse groups, big brother/sister groups, teen runaway groups, the list is endless-but that's too hard. There are millions of abused children in this country, not enough children and youth caseworkers, not enough healthy foster homes, tons of addict mothers with babies, tons of mentally ill mothers with babies - are you helping them? Meanwhile, people are losing their health insurance like crazy, cannot afford health or dental care or medication, utility prices are skyrocketing (electricity and natural gas), school taxes are rising, small business owners are losing their businesses, people cannot pay their bills and are losing their homes and entire way of life, trying to put a kid through college is horrendous financially and the mess in the middle east will never end. THESE ARE THE REAL ISSUES. And these are the issues that are ruining my life and the life of working and middle class people, even upper middle class people who rely on customers for their business. Whenever Republicans feel they are losing an election, they bring up two things: abortion and guns. It is so transparent and idiotic, give me a break. When you are all losing your homes and health insurance, are you going to really give a damn about abortion?

    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:56:46 AM

      I love the logic of this. If a child is abused, or might be abiused, the best thing for everybody concerned is to slaughter that child from the start. If a child might have a tough life, if he might be unloved, if he might stub his toe-- off with his head!

      The truth is, most children who are abused don't end up killing themselves.

      So why should their mothers kill them?

      • Posted By: dark.energy363 @ 09/19/2008 10:58:09 AM

        First of all you are confusing life with a potential life. You are aware that fully 20% of all pregnacies abort sponteaneously.

      • Posted By: Skallywag @ 08/29/2008 12:24:23 PM

        What is your point? Abortion is not an issue. It is a difficult private matter for the parents (and possibly their doctor and/or religious leader) to contemplate upon. No government has a place in regulating for or against. Get off your religious high horse and quit trying to ram your faith down everyone elses throats.

    • Posted By: Davole @ 08/28/2008 4:09:33 PM

      leighjamesleigh -

      You claim that Abortion is not an issue.
      Obviously you are wrong - don't you see the number of comments and replies on this website?
      Didn't you hear the questions posed to Obama and McCain at the Saddleback forum?
      It was Obama that wanted to court the Evangellical Christians in this election, and obviously they consider it to be an issue.

      Abortion would be much less of an issue if women who consider themselves to be pro-choice bothered to CHOOSE to minimize the chances of them ever becoming pregnant if they did not want tp become pregnant. Are they ignorant regarding the human reproductive process? Is it somehow a great mystery to them that if they engage in wanton and unprotected sex, that they risk the chance of becoming pregnant?
      Are they mentally so retarded that they cannot associate having sex with possibly becoming pregnant?

      And if they somehow do get pregnant, they can exercise their right to free choice by CHOOSING to respect vulnerable defenseless human life, and ensuring that the infant is allowed to be born.

      • Posted By: nmlane @ 09/10/2008 2:25:05 PM

        You act like there isn't some retarded guy in this scenario, that by getting pregnant its all the womans fault. And who says they aren't protecting themselves? Guys take none of the blame for a woman getting pregnant and its half their fault.

    • Posted By: summer4077 @ 08/28/2008 10:00:06 AM

      Excellent post. You forgot one of the issues Repubs turn to, though...terror! Abortion, guns, and terror...the holy trinity of the Republican party.

      • Posted By: bojack27 @ 08/28/2008 11:17:17 AM

        I forgot you dems turn to homosexuallity, gun-control and marxism.................... the un-holy trinity of the demo(n)crats

        • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/28/2008 12:16:11 PM

          Here's an example Skypoint, prove me wrong.

    • Posted By: bojack27 @ 08/28/2008 12:07:02 PM

      And these are the issues that are ruining my life and the life of working and middle class people, even upper middle class people who rely on customers for their business. Whenever Republicans feel they are losing an election, they bring up two things: abortion and guns. It is so transparent and idiotic, give me a break. When you are all losing your homes and health insurance, are you going to really give a damn about abortion?

      Whenever democrats feel that they are loosing the election they place blame on others instead of making people, business and government responsible for their own actions. These problems will not go away simple because we pay for them ???. It will only encourage more people to be irresponsible??? look at what welfare reform brought about when a (Republican Bob Dole) suggested that we make those who file for welfare give the names to the child???s father in order to receive help. Of course bill Clinton adopted this idea ??? and the result is a reduction in teenage pregnancies and filing of welfare.

    • Posted By: bojack27 @ 08/28/2008 12:06:15 PM

      Meanwhile, people are losing their health insurance like crazy, cannot afford health or dental care or medication, utility prices are skyrocketing (electricity and natural gas), school taxes are rising, small business owners are losing their businesses, people cannot pay their bills and are losing their homes and entire way of life, trying to put a kid through college is horrendous financially and the mess in the middle east will never end. THESE ARE THE REAL ISSUES.

      What causes these REAL ISSUES? Risky behaviors always drive up the cost of health care, medication, insurance and taxes???. If you smoke your insurance is higher???. If you drive recklessly or in the age group that drives recklessly you insurance rates go up???. If you engage in a certain lifestyle your insurance rates goes up??? If you are underage, don???t work and engage in the above activities then those who don???t engage in such activities will have to pay for their behavior. So should we reward does who do wrong and don???t want to change their behavior then turn around and punish those who do right because others aren???t responsible enough for their own actions? Health insurance goes up from frivolous law suits, fraud, and shady lawyers exploiting victims. I say we regulate the FDA that doesn???t allow for alternative treatments (herbs and natural healing remedies) to be allowed to patients??? they insist on taking 10 years of research and $300 million dollars in funds to be spent to say that medicine are treatments for diseases and yet they don???t treat them???. This drives up the cost since companies have no other choice to raise the price of medication in order to recoup their expenses. What about regulating the house and banking industries that exploit the poor with: Interest only loans, Variable rates, Reverse mortgage. What about putting a cap on lawsuit settlements against doctors? What about making people who don???t graduate from high school pay extra taxes for each year they didn???t complete? I guarantee the dropout rate would reduce drastically??? What about putting single moms to work in order to receive government care? My whole point is to make people responsible for their actions!


    • Posted By: bojack27 @ 08/28/2008 12:04:54 PM

      Comment: Abortion is not an issue and only takes away from the important issues that are wrecking this country, the middle and working class and the economy as a whole. Abortion is a woman's choice and should only be a medical option early in the pregnancy unless for dire medical reasons.

      So what is more important than saving the life of a person? Do you know that most abortions don???t occur for the reasons that you names above??? as a matter of fact ??? less than 1% of abortions occur for medical reasons and that includes: rape and incest???.

      The woman will suffer the consequences. Abortion is an easy cause to be involved in because it involves no real involvement, people picture a beautiful baby, the feel they are saving this beautiful child and it stops there.

      Women suffer the consequences of abortion daily???. Nearly a billion dollars is made in the United States through the exploitation of women??? Involvement goes beyond getting involved in the cause to stop abortion, it goes into the therapy women receive to relieve the guilt of killing their child as well???

      If they are really interested in helping children, they should volunteer to help single pregnant mothers, pregnant teenagers, and child abuse groups, big brother/sister groups, teen runaway groups, the list is endless-but that's too hard. There are millions of abused children in this country, not enough children and youth caseworkers, not enough healthy foster homes, tons of addict mothers with babies, tons of mentally ill mothers with babies - are you helping them?

      Helping goes beyond monetary handouts???. It goes into teaching women to respect themselves and not let anyone exploit them through sex without marriage. Also teaching them to make good moral choices that will lead to a more prosperous life???. Instead of subjecting themselves to poverty, disease and abuse???. All of the conditions you mention are the fruit of peoples choices and what I???m advocating is to get to the root cause of the problem???. And that is overall respect for females.

    • Posted By: catspaw @ 08/28/2008 11:13:39 AM

      Thank you, Leigh.

  • Posted By: catspaw @ 08/27/2008 3:08:05 PM

    TO ALL WHO HAVE BLOGGED:
    My body is mine, your body is yours.
    I will do with my body as I see fit, you will do with your body as you see fit.
    You will not tell me what to do with my body and I will not tell you what to do with your body.
    This is my choice in my life, this is your choice in your life.
    This is called Freedom, freedom that our country is to provide us.

    • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 08/27/2008 3:55:51 PM

      Nonsense. Government and political and social movements have been telling us ''what to do''with our ''bodies''for decades. The passage of the VOLSTEAD Act[Prohibition],is an early instance of regulating that which we do to our bodies. Drinking ages,passage of transfat prohibitions by state and city governments,anti-drug laws,minimal impairment laws,,smoking ordinances,all of these seek certain thresholds as to what can be taken or consumed at what allowable levels,where and when.
      So with abortion. The 1976 USSC ROE decision made plain that certain limits were to be placed on what the high court deemed was in no way an absolutist right. Thus far,and no farther. With indices observing exception to health.
      Yet Obama dismissed compromises in both the Illinois legislature and the US Senate that acknowlaged that it is wrong to deliver a fully developed child[not a ''fetus''], from a healthy mother, and then kill it outside of the womb,with congressional testimony evidence that such killings were routinely botched,and the now-infant,left to die,painfully. A dog would not deserve such a fate. This is the very essence of infanticide,going beyond even the hotly debated ''DxX''or ''partial-birth abortion''. Obama caved to the ultras. Now he will pay for his rash decisions.

      • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 8:27:43 PM

        "Now he will pay for his rash decisions." Muwah Muwah Ha Ha Ha (evil laugh).

        • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 08/28/2008 11:58:38 AM

          One word.


          GALLUP.

          • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/28/2008 1:34:02 PM

            Gallup tracking poll results for 8/27: Obama 48% (+3) , McCain 42% (-1) MOE +/- 2.

            • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:31:06 AM

              Please, let's not be silly.

              Everybody gets a bounce out of their conventions.

              Obama's has been smaller than most.

              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/29/2008 4:08:10 PM

                Just remember that sword cuts both ways. Adios. Oops, I mean good-bye.

    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:37:59 AM

      Right, and the baby's body is his or hers.

      And we will do everything we can to stop you from killing it.

  • Posted By: Jennifer101 @ 08/27/2008 3:40:49 PM

    This is an issue that much more complex than most Pro-Lifers and many Pro-Choicers treat it. For the sake of Labels, I'm anti-abortion, pro-choice. But even that oversimplifies my stances on this issue.

    I have narcolepsy, and take medications to function more normally. My husband and I are planning to start a family, so I will be taking two months to come off the drugs. The drugs I take are not safe for a fetus. Should I be condemned to a life without drugs because I'm married and have consummated that marriage? If you think I should, know this, I would not be able to hold my child safely. My condition includes cataplexy which means, without medication I often lose muscle control when I experience extreme emotions. If I cannot take medication, then the flood of emotions that overwhelm mothers repeatedly as they watch the new life they've help create could kill my child. This issue is complex. Where should the line be drawn?

    I believe abortion is a worst-case scenario. Something that should be avoided in any way possible. That's where I believe our focus should be: reducing the number of abortions. We should work together to reduce abortions to only those extreme cases. A 20 year-old woman with no medical complications gets pregnant and doesn't want the child; Connect her with a couple that can't have a child of their own. There are so many ways we can work towards saving lives without resorting to convicting our doctors.

    Let's also remember that as important as this issue is, it is one of many. There is no perfect candidate. Let's look for the candidate best reflects all of our values.

    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:36:54 AM

      Nice to say we should hook up waiting adoptive coiuples and pregnant women, but so long as there are cheap abortions right down the road-- forget about it. You're living in lala land.

      The easiest road is the one most people choose. And abortion is easy. Evil, but easy.

      That's why there's 1.5 million of them every year.

      Very few of which are complex-- just a form of belated birth control.

      • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/29/2008 3:20:42 PM

        And as to belated birth control, does this mean that you believe in contraception or family planning? I'm guessing as a devout Catholic, you think contraception of any kind is against the will of God. The Catholic Church says you can space out your babies, but why shouldn't a women be pregnant from the time of her marriage until she reaches menopause or dies from childbirth? If she does not maximize the number of offspring, why isn't this being selfish? Can she do so because she is sore from the last birth, or the family is having difficulty making ends meet? The fact that there are obviously far more babies that could be than actually are, isn't this out of choice of a woman and her partner? How can you defend this kind of selfish choice when it means that a child that could have a life (or be adopted by the childless), does not even get a chance to exist?

    • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/28/2008 9:58:15 PM

      Your experience & beliefs reflect the complexity of interacting with the real world, which is unsettling to people that see things only in black and white. It might be nice if everything in life was simple, but it's not, and those that proceed on that assumption, do so to their own peril.

  • Posted By: DaveDiana @ 08/27/2008 9:50:23 PM

    Will someone on the left offer a civilized discourse on the logic of abortion? Please, no name calling about the religous right, or war mongering right wingers.... PLEASE tell me why you believe abortion is ok. Please, take your arguement beyond "it's a woman's body.' A pregnency is such a special circumstance that while yes, a womans body is obviously involved you have to balance that with the fact that a new human life has a stake too. And while yes, sometimes the life of the mother is in danger, that is honestly not usually the case.

    So what I'm asking is that you ignore the instances of rape, life of the mother , etc... because frankly most abortions aren't performed for these types of situations. Tell me why an abortion should be legal when the sole reason for not carrying a child is inconvienence, which I believe is the reason for most abortions. Tell me, again in a civilized manner, why you believe the right to live is overshadowed by what happens to be convienent for the mother at that time.

    I'm not trying to be a smart aleck. It's just something I can't understand. Tell me how you look at this.

    • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 10:02:02 PM

      Ah, the ever-present concern troll. Why can't we just all get along? Sob!

      • Posted By: DaveDiana @ 08/27/2008 11:09:33 PM

        "Concern Troll"? So why didn't you just say you had nothing relevant to say?

        Thanks for the comment. It added so much to the debate. Apparently, at least from your perspective, abortion cannot be defended on intellectual grounds. Of course, with a comment like that I suspect you would have difficulty defending anything on intellectual grounds.

        I doubt abortion CAN be defended on intellectual grounds. You certianly aren't up to it. I've had enough of the sophmoric arguements from people like yourself. Sorry, I just happen to enjoy a good debate. I find the name calling to be childish. Since you can't debate like a grown up, you should just quit. Go to bed. It's past your bedtime and you have to go to school tomorrow.

        • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 11:35:25 PM

          Oh, and your insult is lame.

          • Posted By: DaveDiana @ 08/27/2008 11:51:11 PM

            Still waiting for your reasoned response.

            • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:52:10 AM

              You're going to wait a long time.

              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/29/2008 3:17:03 PM

                And as to belated birth control, does this mean that you believe in contraception or family planning? I'm guessing as a devout Catholic, you think contraception of any kind is against the will of God. The Catholic Church says you can space out your babies, but why shouldn't a women be pregnant from the time of her marriage until she reaches menopause or dies from childbirth? If she does not maximize the number of offspring, why isn't this being selfish? Can she do some because she is sore from the last birth, or the family is having difficulty making ends meet? The fact that there are obviously far more babies that could be than actually are, isn't this out of choice of a woman and her partner? How can you defend this kind of selfish choice when it means that a child that could have a life (or be adopted by the childless), does not even get a chance to exist?

              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/29/2008 3:16:15 PM

                Here's some parting questions for you. In some cases, a fertilized egg/zygote can develop into a partial hydatiform mole, which in some cases develops into a choriocarcinoma, an aggressive form of cancer. Should any tumors that result be left to grow and propagate until they take the life of the mother? If not, why not? Sure they may be trisomic in terms of their genetics, but so are fetuses with Down syndrome. Is the difference between a human person and human tissue defined by whether or not you have partial or complete trisomy?

                Or what about fetus in fetu or parasitic twins, in which one embryo gets enveloped by the other and ends up in some body cavity? Should the enclosed twin be left in the other, even though it does not develop any further? What if it is located intracranially (and this does happen)?

                What about ectopic pregnancies, which account for as high as 1% of all pregnancies? Keep the fetus alive at all costs, even if it means the death of the mother? Or is death in childbirth just a necessary outcome of the curse bestowed upon women by God for Eve's behavior in the Garden of Eden.

                How about tetratomas, which are NOT the result of conception but derived from abnormal germ cells? Fetiform tetratomas can generate not just tissues like hair, teeth, etc., but also complete limbs, torsos, and primitve hearts that beat. They are not derived from embryos, but they sure look like the parts of a fetus. What about these? Are they just baby-like? We know from animal cloning that every single cell in your body has the potential to form a human person, give the right cues. The frighteneing possibility (as some physicians belive) is that fetus in fetu could actually be a highly developed teratoma. Let's hope that's not true.

                Sure (apart from ectopic pregnancies) these are rare ane extreme cases (but not as rare as you may think). If the preservation of human life (from the moment of conception) is the greatest good, with absolutely no exceptions, then how do you deal with these cases? If you think everything is simple, then there is no room for dialogue. Just reply with "STUDPID LIBERAL."

            • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/28/2008 7:50:06 AM

              DaveDiana,

              Unfortunately, you'll likely get a response from just askin, but it won't be reasoned. After all, what can we expect from someone who 'defecated' on another poster for having a different opinion?

              The boy is irrelevant.

              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/28/2008 10:00:34 AM

                Hey humorless. It's a joke DA, see."Triumph the Insult Comic Dog." Buy yourself a clue when you get some money.

                Though you still haven't said whether you think the poster that inspired the comment is right when he insinuates that "Obama is in league with Osama." How should I interpret that? An expedient non-answer?

                • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/28/2008 12:16:17 PM

                  The usual liberal spin.... what you said is not what you said.

                  • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/28/2008 12:25:26 PM

                    So you can't answer a simple, direct question. Is the post "Obama + Osama" something you agree with or not? Is it relevant or not?

                    • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/28/2008 12:46:04 PM

                      You haven't seen any of my posts that indicate that, now have you?

                      • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/28/2008 1:03:17 PM

                        But then do they meet your criterion for relevancy? Or is to "call BS" just something you save for liberals.

          • Posted By: DaveDiana @ 08/28/2008 12:30:47 AM

            Well Just Askin, I can see you have been busy posting. Since whatever school you attended apparently failed you, let me explain what the problem is . You haven't posted anything that wasn't an insult. You try to win arguments not by intellect but by changing the subject. This is called sophistry. It's a term that comes from the ancient Greek Sophist who didn't care about the content of the argument so much as winning the argument. It's why anyone with a shred of intellect finds you tiresome.

            I've read your various comments. I'm guessing you aren't out of your teens. (If you are, don't take my error as a win for you. Believe me, it isn't a compliment) If you are in your teens, don't waste your life being a fool. No one will respect you. If you believe something, at least learn to defend it. People may not agree with you, but they'll respect you.

            • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/28/2008 2:19:47 PM

              Socrates--a little known Greek philosopher--was considered a sophist. But you do have to be careful, 'cause the authorities that be might make your drink the hemlock poison for corrupting the youth.

            • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/28/2008 12:53:47 PM

              Is there a rule in the new conservative debate book that says? -- To disarm your opponent, try to call them, boy or a teen. If that doesn't work, then suggest that they were inherentlystupid and did poorly in school. Question their reading comprehension. But if all fails, there's always the trusty "STUPID LIBERALS."

              Hey some of us have learned a bit from the tactics of Rush Limbaugh and the talking heads at Fox News. Things have definitely changed from the days of Bill Buckley and Firing Line.

              And I see your high school diploma and raise you my Ph.D.

              And in parting, here's my final reply to your question. Read some books. There are plenty of discussions of the ethics of abortion from both sides in books you can find in your bookstore or library. Try reading some books that don't come from your Christian bookseller if you want a reasoned defense of the pro-choice side. I have done this and carefully considered the arguments on both sides.

              You should know that coming to a blog for an answer is a mistake. Blogs are mostly heat and very little light.

        • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 11:33:58 PM

          You don't want a debate, you want a pulpit to preach from.

          • Posted By: DaveDiana @ 08/27/2008 11:48:26 PM

            Just tell me why abortion should remain legal. It's that simple. You mistake my call for being civilized for being weak or preachy. No, it's just this; I'm 44 years old, married with two children, one autistic. (I mention that because I want you to realize I fully understand what it is like to have a difficult child. I wouldn't wish an autistic child on my worst enemy, but I love that childas much as anyone.) For the short time I've been looking on online I've yet to see anyone offer anything resembling a reasoned arguement. I'm dieing to see one. People spout vitriol to each other that they'd never think of saying to someones face. To hide behind a screen name and do that is cowardly.

            You've posted 3 times andsaid nothing relevant. You bore me. Do you have anything to say about abortion and the Democratic party that has any type of gravitis?

            • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/28/2008 12:12:27 AM

              No, I won't play your game. You set up the debate with a long preamble that basically defines any argument for choice as emanating from selfishness (inconvenience for the mother). You dismiss any legitimate medical concerns as off the table. Basically your asking people to respond to one of those "when did you stop beating your wife" questions. Thanks, but no thanks. If you want a glimpse of my reasoning, try and read further down in this blog.

              And life is hard all around. You have no idea the problems my family has faced over the years. You have my sympathy for your situation. I have worked with disabled children and know how challenging it can be.

              • Posted By: DaveDiana @ 08/28/2008 1:00:03 AM

                I've got to go. Seriously, I think the number of casual abortions in this country is insane. Doesn't this concern anyone else? And to get back on topic, why is the Democratic party so hostile to the pro-life side? It seems we all need to be open minded so long as we agree with their side. So much for tolerance.

                • Posted By: dark.energy363 @ 08/28/2008 2:03:44 PM

                  We are hostile because of the religious right because we are tired of you bible thumpers pushing YOUR beliefs on us. If you dont beleive in abortions then dont have one.

                  • Posted By: bojack27 @ 08/28/2008 4:35:51 PM

                    Then quit asking us to fund them through the government... Planned Parenthood receive at least $300 milllion in tax payers dollars...

              • Posted By: DaveDiana @ 08/28/2008 12:41:40 AM

                I dont think its unreasonable to assume most abortions are performed for the sake of convienence. Why does that put the entire arguement off the table?

                And no, Catholics as a whole are not pro choice. You posted that elswhere. Your making statements as if they are fact. And please, feel free to defend abortions performed for the convienence of the mother. If you have data that states those type of abortions are NOT the majority then I ask you to share it. Since by percentage it is the most common type, then why would it be off the table?

                • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/28/2008 1:01:20 AM

                  Here's the path you want me to follow:

                  1. Abortions are done for convenience.
                  2. Anything done for convenience is done for selfish reasons.
                  3. Defend selfishness.

                  Since 3 is indefensible, then leap to the assumption that 1 and 2 are proven. Add the corollary that "Selfish behavior should be legislated against," and voila, you have the answer that you seek. You beliefs are validated..

                  I'm not sure where you got the idea I think all Catholics are pro-choice. I don't have any opinion on that.

                  Once again, thanks, but no thanks.

    • Posted By: catspaw @ 08/28/2008 11:33:03 AM

      Hi DaveDiane, I have read the posts below, it seems just-askin wants to fight. You seem like me, abortion has never been an option. My concern is for the girl who finds herself pregent and afriad that she will be "punished" for allowing that to happen or for having sex before marriage and does not know where to turn to. The woman who already has two or three children and works two jobs to keep a roof over their heads, food in their stomachs, and clothes on their backs, and feeling another child would just be to much to deal with at that time in her life.

      I know this is only two arguments for abortions rights. But remember, a woman desprite will find anyway to have the abortion, which could also risk her life as well.

      • Posted By: Americansforabetterusa @ 08/29/2008 2:02:12 AM

        The woman who already has two or three children and works two jobs to keep a roof over their heads, food in their stomachs, and clothes on their backs, and feeling another child would just be to much to deal with at that time in her life. (Maybe they should consider using birth control or multiple forms to avoid such things when life is as stressful for them as you indicate),

        MAybe

      • Posted By: catspaw @ 08/28/2008 11:40:48 AM

        Also, abortion being us as birth control is totally wrong.

    • Posted By: dark.energy363 @ 08/28/2008 1:57:46 PM

      Let me counter your argument and say that not all abortions are carried out in a frivolous manner. And yes it is a matter which should be considered in a serious fashion. But again this country must not only have freedom of religion but freedon from religion. BTW, speaking of the supposed capricious attitude towards the unborn,how about how cavalier these same people are about the lives of the already living. Seemingly the concern ends at the womb. If you are so concerned about life then start with a more concerted effort to help those who are already here. Smacks of hypocrisy.

  • Posted By: botheyesopen @ 08/26/2008 8:22:11 AM

    Are pro-lifers always against killing innocent children? No. They will gladly vote for and support the killing of innocent children when it serves a higher purpose, the protection of their children and property. That is what happens during any war. Each side kills innocent people of all ages. So, the moral conflict of abortion relates directly to the moral conflict of war.

    When is it morally correct for someone to decide to kill someone, especially an innocent child? Pro-lifers say that a woman who makes a personal decision to have an abortion is wrong. That woman struggles with a very direct, personal, and emotion-filled decision to abort a fetus growing inside her. She does not do that lightly and weighs many personal factors. Pro-lifers generally do not apply the same moral judgment to a woman who decides to kill someone else???s child in a war. That woman makes a much less personal decision with far less struggle to kill someone else???s child in order to protect their own children, loved-ones, property, and culture. Why have pro-lifers not risen up against war? Is it because it serves their self-interest?

    It appears to me that pro-lifers are not pro-life. They are more pro-personal self-interest. That makes them the same as the people they criticize. When will they get off their self-righteous soapboxes and admit that they have no stronger moral ground than the people they disparage and hate for supporting abortion?

    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 3:09:47 AM

      Let's see. Every mother thinks long and hard on her abortion.

      And every conservative doesn't think at all about the deaths of children in war.

      But what happens when conservatives have abortions? Which, sadly, does rarely happen.

      And what happens when liberals start and fight wars? Which, sadly, does often happen.

      Well. Generalizations are sure fun, aren't they?

      But they aren't very smart.

  • Posted By: Grumpy Old Man @ 08/26/2008 8:35:08 AM

    The fact is the Democrats have been guilty of legal malpractice in their dodges and attempts to treat the beginning of life purely as a matter of religious faith. Consider the question of murder, which is the deliberate, unjustified taking of a human life. Given the fact that there are always questions of what constitutes a deliberate and unjustified act, the definition also presumes a legal understanding of what constitues a living human being. Ergo, you cannot dodge the question on the basis of religiousiity.

    That being said, what constitutes a living human being. The conception argument fulfills several reasonable objective criteria. We have a living organism with a complete human genome. It's genetics are different than that of the mother, hence it is a different organism. Furthermore, its dynamics of growth indicate an independent life cycle. Ergo, the fertilized egg is NOT just a body part of the mother.

    The place where the argument breaks down however is the question of individuality. A fetilized egg usually results in an individual. However, it may split and ulitimately result in multiple individuals.

    So how do we deal with the question of individuality. Faith argues for the concept of a soul. However, as such it is not a reaonable scientific criterion. However, we have the notion of conciousness, which is self evident and not subject to the uncertainties of faith. We also recognizee that individuals don't lose their humanity in an unconsious state, i.e., in sleep or in a coma. Therefore the issue is one of cociousness potential. Also if we consider essential organs, we recognize that the one essential organ that needs to function is the human brain. Remove my leg - I am still human. Remove my brain, and you just have a mass of differentiated human tissue.

    So my definition of when we have a living human being is thus: an organism with the complete human genome in its cellular structure, with cellular differentiation that has a single, distinct and functioning brain. Using the brain wave criterion which is applied to death, we have a human being about 40 days into gestation.

    This definition resorts to no appeal to faith and is consistent with other law on regarding the death of an individual.

    The Democrats are just too gutless to consider this, as they are merely shills for NARAL.

    • Posted By: bwlear @ 08/26/2008 11:08:57 AM

      A womans right to have a say over her reproduction is hers and hers alone. You act as if Dems are for abortions when the truth of the matter is that we are for a womens right to have a choice. You Repubs are so good at forcing your flawed sense of morality on others but never have the guts to look in the mirror and face whats there. Your party is full of "keep the goverment out of my affairs" when it comes to guns (Which are responsible for FAR MORE deaths then abortions) and church but will abondon that when it comes to your inflated sense of moral eliteism. Lets try this, take the time to study the history of your religion and of the Bible. You will find that it is as flawed as anything touched and tainted by man. It is not the "word of God" because God didnt write it. It is the word of MEN who felt inspired by God, and ALL men are tainted and fall from grace, including you and me.
      If you really believed in helping improve the lives of the " unborn ", you and those who think like you would be out there spending those millions of dollars helping the people who are already struggling to make it in this life. That would demonstrate to women and men that even if you cant support a child, the "village" would be able to provide. But you wont do that because your concern for life ends at the birth canal.

      • Posted By: Grumpy Old Man @ 08/27/2008 9:43:57 AM

        Nothing you have said addressed my initial point - the beginning of life, like the end of life is a matter that the law must address. Furthermore, you have made no comment regarding my proposal, which, contrary to "pro choice" advocates, is strictly legal and non-religious. Furthermore, the so call "right to choose" was concocted out of thin air by SCOTUS, precisely because they punted on the question of when a human being comes into existence, and thus should be entitled with rights.

        Until you can come up with a reasoned counter proposal on the definition of what constitutes a living human being, your statement about rights is just so much vacuous claptrap.

        If taking of a human life is a matter of personal choice, where does it end? Perhaps I should perform a post-Natal abortion on someone else.

        The point here is that with rights come responsibilities, and failure to act in a way that respects the right of others is subject to legal sanction.

        As I said before, murder is the deliberate, unjustified taking of a human life. This leaves plenty of discussion about deliberation and justification even after the fact that the life of a human being has been taken.

        You ignore this.

        Insofar as the Democrats are concerned, they too punt on the fundamental question as part of their "pro-choice" stand. Yet many indicate that they want to recuce the number of abortions. Why? Perhaps they concede to themselves, if not the body politic at large, that there is something that is not quite right going on. Democrats have often advanced proposals for pre-Natal care. Why? Are such programs only focused on the mother's health?

        Frankly here, the law is a mess. I want to see laws that are based in the best scientific understanding and consistent with the most sacred principles of the Republic - that all are created with certain inalianble rights, and that among these are life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. To do this requires real thought, instead of repeating tired slogans ad infinitum.

        Contact me when you've shown some thought.

        • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 3:04:23 AM

          It would seem they have not yet given it any thought.

          But why should the past couple of days be any different from the rest of their lives?

      • Posted By: Esencia08 @ 08/27/2008 3:55:32 PM

        Well said!

  • Posted By: misterharban @ 08/27/2008 3:53:16 PM

    Catspaw said:

    ???My body is mine, your body is yours.
    I will do with my body as I see fit, you will do with your body as you see fit.
    You will not tell me what to do with my body and I will not tell you what to do with your body.
    This is my choice in my life, this is your choice in your life.
    This is called Freedom, freedom that our country is to provide us.???

    Fair enough. Let us see what choices women (after all you are addressing YOUR right to do as you please with YOUR body) are currently making.

    According to the Guttmacher Institute:

    50 percent of all the pregnancies that happen to women are unintended.

    20 percent of all the pregnancies that happen to women are terminated with abortions

    35 percent of all women (who are doing as they please with their bodies) will have an abortion by the time they are 45 years old.

    47 percent of all women who have an abortion this year will have had at least one prior abortion.

    67 percent of all women who have an abortion this year have never been married

    37 percent of all women who have an abortion will have become pregnant out of wedlock

    Then there are the women who decide to not have an abortion and bring their children into single parent families. Since 1960 the percentage of children born into single parent families has more than doubled to around 37%. And the mothers who are doing what they see fit in this regard are choosing to bring children into the world in a way which has the single strongest correlation to poverty. While 8.2 percent of children born to married couples live in poverty, approximately 35.2 percent of children born to single parent homes live in poverty.

    Catspaw, do what you please with your body. But refrain from coming back when you have made a bad choice and calling on those who did not to bail you out. Pay for your own abortions. If you choose to keep the baby, plan on paying the full cost of having and raising the child. Refrain from asking others to bear the cost of being a parent with subsidized child care. I am fully on board with you, and others like you, doing anything you damn well please with your bodies. If you say so, it is your right to do so. But it is also your responsibility to live with the consequences of your choices.

    In this, and other columns on reproductive rights, we have been incessantly pounded with the concept of the right of every woman to have absolute control over her own body. How about a little equal time for the concept of the need for every woman to exercise that right responsibly.

    • Posted By: Esencia08 @ 08/27/2008 4:48:49 PM

      to Mister: Women pay taxes as well so I dont see a problem with the government paying for an abortion procedure. Also, your belief that women should shoulder the burden of her choices in terms of whether to bring a child in to society by supporting a child all by herself is indicative of a lack of understanding of the central role of women in building family and community. I suppose you have not heard of the african proverb that it takes a village to raise a child. You appear to habor resentment that a woman should have any autonomous decision making in matters that concern her reproductive choices and would like society to punish her for that, but since no man can survive without the benovelence of the female, you should be eternally grateful that your Mother decided to give you life!

      • Posted By: misterharban @ 08/27/2008 5:27:55 PM

        Yes, women pay taxes. And many women do not wish to be any more responsible for the bad choices of others than men do. Your entire response seems based on some assumption of sexism which is simply not there. Men and women both have responsibilities with regard to reproduction and with regard to rearing children.

        My mother and my father, together, decided to give me life. They made conscious decisions which required hard choices that they would jointly shoulder the so-called burden of that choice. And I am certainly glad that they did. And they made every other decision necessary to provide for my education and wellbeing until I was able to do the same for myself. I cannot recall that either of my parents viewed having children as being some kind of punishment. I would hope with all of my heart that no mother would ever feel that way.

        I was not raised in Africa, however. My family raised me. As much as it seems fair and right for a woman to make an autonomous decision to bring a life into the world without also making the decisions necessary to ensure its welfare, it is no more fair and right for that mother to expect that anyone else, not a party to that decision, should shoulder a part of that burden than if I had wanted to (as I did when I was a young man) to be a ski bum and expected someone else to shoulder part of the burden for that.

        The miracle of life is God???s greatest gift. But it is a choice accompanied with responsibility. Life is full of choices. It is full of consequences. And successful living requires the willingness to be responsible for those choices. If you want to choose to have a child for any reason, wonderful. Choose to be responsible for that decision. Reproductive rights and choices are not without responsibilities.

        • Posted By: venusian424 @ 08/27/2008 7:39:16 PM

          Everyone makes choices in life...what else is new? The fact still remains that regardless of a woman's choice society....a Civil, compassionate, humane society must assist its people in order for the society to be wholesome and prosper. We as women don't abandon our creation because someone made a choice that results in hardship in that person's life. I think you are missing the point because I can reference many conditions and situations in life that is a result of poor choices amoungst the masses. Let's stick with the facts shall we? Furthermore, one thing you men can do to assist the woman in helping to control unwanted pregnancies is WEAR A DAMN CONDOM!!!!

          • Posted By: misterharban @ 08/27/2008 8:19:02 PM

            Clearly we all have a responsibility to work to ensure that we have a civil, compassionate and humane society. I object to the concept, however, that anyone, male or female, or any combination thereof can make a decision to breed and then, on the basis that it is inconvenient to accept full responsibility for rearing the result, to suggest that it is the responsibility of society to take on the added burden. People who breed without the expectation of accepting responsibility for their offspring are not doing society any favors. Thankfully, there are plenty of people who will bring children into a caring world and who are willing to fully accept responsibility for them. For the rest of the breeders out there, perhaps they should get a puppy. At least when it becomes a burden beyond the means of the master it can be disposed of at the humane society. It is my view that the first step toward a civil, compassionate and humane society is for every member to understand their own individual responsibilities before they burden others with the things that they are too self consumed to take care of themselves. If you cannot raise it do not breed it. There are many things which constitute reproductive rights. Bearing children, however, is not a right as much as it is a privilege which is accompanied with the most sacred of responsibilities.

            Furthermore, you are the last damned idiot on this planet to lecture me on the shared responsibility that men have in controlling unwanted pregnancies (or the shared responsibility they have when the birth of a child is contemplated). I think I made my views on that matter perfectly clear in this exchange. No one is exempt from responsibility in matters of relationships, citizenship or reproductive rights. Is that clear enough for you?

            • Posted By: venusian424 @ 08/27/2008 9:49:57 PM

              The problem with your so called intellect is that it is flawed and sanctimonious in bull crap! Because what you are preaching only happens in a PERFECT WORLD. And guess what smart ass? There is no such thing! Not even the universe creates perfectly. They are many factors, variables that can cause poor choices, judgment and a lack of maturity in one???s own thinking process. Doubly so when you are living in such fragmented, schizoid societies that exist today. The fact that there are many single, poor mothers raising their children without much support (especially from the fathers) tells you that obviously they are accepting responsibility in their choices. That does not mean that they do not need assistance from the members of our society. Furthermore, remember these children whom you feel should be abandoned by society become the future of our society. People don???t have to choose they way YOU think they should choose. As responsible adults we can help educate young and old about making more conscious decision making. And this relates to other areas other than child bearing because child bearing is not the only area in which people can make poor decisions. People can make poor decisions in just about every aspect of life. The key is helping to promote self awareness and understanding into those choices and to empower individuals collectively and individually.
              But that woman can choose to end life or bear it. And however the outcome society has a responsibility in helping those less fortunate for whatever reason. Because remember your mother chose to BREED you correct? And I am sure she wasn???t a millionaire with a seven figure investment portfolio! And many individuals whom choose whether consciously or not to have children are simple people who are living paycheck to paycheck but there can be a joy for those who decide to bring life onto this world even if their lives are less than what we think it should be. Such desire is the individual spiritual essence of manifestation of creation.

              • Posted By: misterharban @ 08/27/2008 10:37:40 PM

                I am well aware of the unforeseeable and unfortunate circumstances that many people find themselves in and the practical need to be compassionate in helping them and their children. I devote a substantial amount of my insubstantial means helping them. What I can't stand is bleeding hearts like you who can discuss the need for every remedy except for an honest discussion of the place where personal responsibility might fit in the overall picture. What exists in your IMPERFECT world is no room whatsoever for even a DISCUSSION of the role of personal responsibility in these matters, only safety nets and legislation.

                So we have more children than ever being born into single parent homes who, far more than children born to couples who are married, are doomed to a life of poverty. God help us if a smart ass like me suggests that a little more emphasis on responsibility to the people who become mothers who irresponsibly bring children into these circumstances might be considered as a solution which might relieve a great deal of human suffering. In your IMPERFECT world the only thing which seems to be out of bounds is any discussion of responsibility.

                So we live in a world where it becomes society???s responsibility to do the things that mothers are unwilling to do for themselves. A world where it becomes society???s responsibility to bail out homeowners who irresponsibly purchased homes beyond their means. And we will soon live in a world where it becomes society???s responsibility to bail out the millions of boomers who have failed to provide for their own retirements.

                Personal responsibility is not the only variable in the equation. But it the way people like you refuse to allow it to be considered at all is repulsive.

                • Posted By: Esencia08 @ 08/27/2008 11:17:18 PM

                  mister you just advocated for society to abandon women and children, you are the worst kind of human being for saying that. It hard to believe that you were raised in a civilized society. Let me tell you this, just because a woman is poor does not mean that she is going to forego having children nor should she for that would mean that the working class women which make up the majority in this society would not bear children at all! marriage vs single parenthood is not the issue either because there are a diversity of family types and not just one ideal type. Actually the conservative view of the abortion issue is that women should not have abortions regardless of their socio-economic status, and so if this is the case then society has a responsibility to redistribute resources so that the working class mothers can humanely subsist with their children thus enabling the children to have a good quality of life with social, educational and economic opportunities in the future .

                  The other side of the argument is that a woman's right to choose to bear life or not cannot be dictated by government or other members of society just because they may hold different beliefs or values rooted in theological doctrines which by the way living in a pluralistic society will not be the beliefs that every member of society subscribes to. In this instance the woman's reproductive choice may be driven by economics or some other personal factor, it doesn't matter because that is her fundamental consitutional right. Because she chooses to exercise this right does not mean that she has to be abandoned by her family or community or society. That is what you were advocating like a damn uncivilized brute.

                  But the basis for your statements I believe are rooted in sexism because you dont believe as a man that a woman should have any self-determination or autonomous decision making over her body because that is what you were taught to believe in western culture hence the theological and legal arguments to restrict abortion. However, you need to understand that this is not the belief and practice of ALL cultures. Moreover, controlling women's reproductive choices is un-natural for the human species hence it is natural for the female to exercise her biological endowments in reproductive and sexual selection. And because I believe in natural law and do not subscribe to the western view or tradition in regards to the issue of abortion, it is inconsequential for me as I will always exercise my reproductive choices in the tradition of my own culture.

                  • Posted By: misterharban @ 08/27/2008 11:54:41 PM

                    Your really don???t get it, do you? I don???t care what reproductive choices you or anyone else makes. I wouldn???t think of restricting those choices. I simply believe that when you, or you and your sperm donor choose to have children that you will somehow understand that you should live with those choices and not expect the rest of the world to do for you what you are unwilling to do for yourself.

                    I care deeply about children and poor people. Beyond deeply caring, I devote a substantial portion of my life to serving them. I hope you can say the same. I see the results every day of children brought into the world by people who refuse to be responsible parents. Yes, the children are now society???s problem. But adults who refuse to ever grow up are the cause. And as long as our society is reluctant to engage these adults to become more mature and responsible, all of the things which people like you expect of society to do to make up for that failure will amount to nothing.

                    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:44:27 AM

                      Harban, all your good sense is wasted on these people. But I appreciate it.

            • Posted By: Esencia08 @ 08/27/2008 10:39:22 PM

              Your comments are very condenscending toward the women. You sound like a man who has a profound case of womb envy and so thus needs to denigrate the source of creation, but again I MUST remind you that it is due to the benevolence of your Mother that you are even alive to talk trash, I don't care how you try to spin it. You are double talking one minute saying that women and men have responsibilities and then the next trying to dump the sole responsibility on women for the care of children. Actually you are making a strong case for why it is imperative that women exercise their right to have an abortion regardless of what any man thinks. Your contribution to the process of conception is to be a sperm breeder, do you want a medal for that? I am sure you realize by now that there are plenty of sperm banks available to women. So if you are making an argument for women to have sole responsibility for provisions of children because we make decisons as to how, when and if to bear children, then you are basically rendering yourself irrelevant as a man. Of course there are more intelligent men out there who would not think so unrealistically when it comes to understanding the realities of life, so I will take your nonsensical comments as borne out of your own sexism which you are trying to uphold with a flimsy, unrealistic argument.

              • Posted By: misterharban @ 08/27/2008 11:35:00 PM

                What a load of feminist crap. I am here because a man and a woman agreed to have a baby and to be responsible for raising me. It happens that my father was much more than a sperm donor, you condescending ball buster. He helped support our family and much, much more. My father and mother formed a partnership which used to be known as a family. They made huge sacrifices to make my life possible. And they did not undertake raising a family with the expectation that society help them be parents. When I was the sperm donor to my family I did my best to live up to the high standards my father set. I hope the person who contributed the sperm which made you possible was as good and kind as my designated sperm donor was.

                If you cannot find anything better than a sperm donor to join you in the effort to have a child, or don???t want a man in your life for any other reason, that is your choice. The notion that when you make that choice that somehow you are entitled to have the rest of society make up for your little bastard???s lack of a live-at-home sperm donor is, unfortunately, the exact kind of reasoning that feeds every misogynist???s warped view of women.

                I would not presume that it is appropriate to dump the sole responsibility of raising children on women. But a woman who takes it upon herself to be the sole party to the birth of a child and then maintains that society owes her some help in raising it is pretty much like the kid who killed his parents and then threw himself on the mercy of the court as an orphan.

                • Posted By: venusian424 @ 08/28/2008 11:59:59 AM

                  LOL......(MisterH) I came from a perfect home, with perfect parents, who had a perfect child, and I became a perfect sperm donor who had to live up to the perfection of my father! It???s amazing how much someone reveals about their psyche through these posts!

                  • Posted By: misterharban @ 08/28/2008 8:14:39 PM

                    It would be fatally misogynistic for me to observe that the logic behind your response is typically female -- so I will not. But someday, when you learn to read, you might note that I never suggested in anyway that my experience was the paragon of perfection. Far from it. It was simply a continuous tutorial in the nature of personal responsibility. Someday try to read less into peoples psyche's and more into what they are saying directly. As Freud once said, "sometimes a cigar is simply a good cigar."

        • Posted By: Esencia08 @ 08/27/2008 10:27:24 PM

          Mister do you realize that you are affirming much of what I said which is the opposite of what you originally wrote? I really dont care if you think my comments are sexist because I present the female centered view of the world, the female centered reality is the utimate reality that exists because it also forms the basis of being a male! THINK ABOUT IT!

    • Posted By: catspaw @ 08/27/2008 4:21:57 PM

      misterh, I do not have any children, and because of the type of epilepsy I have, it is nearly impossible for me to become pregent.

      You complained about paying for abortions, are you willing to pay to eduction young people, girls and boys alike, how to prevent the pregency? Are you willing to pay for their conserpetives to prevent the prevent the pregency? Are you willing to do what is needed to help all who need. I AM.

      I will advise, try to point the young people to the right direction, be their to lean an ear. If a child is forced to have a child, what do you that her mind set will be when she does reach adulthood? Have your ever consider the effects this would have on a person. I have seen it first hand.

      I have seen the resentment and hatred a child has for a parent, because parent went through with a pregency due to rape and let the child know about it.

      You have not walked in their shoes, do not judge them. For a grown person to make the decision for themselves it is their right. Understand, our way of life has produced those time of %, People afraid to speak with the younger generation about choices that they make, and what kind of may happen because of that choice.

      • Posted By: misterharban @ 08/27/2008 4:51:44 PM

        Yes, I am willing to pay for education and contraceptives for women who need it. As you delve further into the statistics of abortion, however, the question is not so much one of education as many would have us believe. After all, the 47 percent of women who will have abortions this year who have already had one or more abortions can be reasonably be expected to understand the cause and effect relationship between intercourse and pregnancy. There is a more valid argument for ensuring that every woman who wants access to contraceptives can obtain them. With qualifications, I can support paying for that concept.

        As a parent of a child conceived out of wedlock a long time ago and as the parent of a beautiful grown daughter, I have walked in the shoes of people who have made bad and good choices. I have learned the hard way to understand the importance of acting responsibly. We spoke to our children about responsibility and reproduction. I have to say, however, I am deeply opposed to do-good legislation which removes a parent???s right to be a parent. Many states now offer more protection and parental involvement in the decision of a child to get a tattoo than they do in the decision of a child to get an abortion.

        As an obviously older person, I am deeply disturbed by a culture that has reduced its discussions of human relationships to a one sided demand for rights. Most of the women who are getting abortions are not children. Many of the women who are bringing children into economically doomed single parent homes are not children. And many of the parents of the children who really do need help never grew beyond childhood themselves.

        If a call for more discussion on the side of responsibility can be construed as judgmental, so be it. Rights, no matter how innately fair cannot exist without responsibility. And responsibility is the word which seems to be least frequently mentioned in discussions, like this, of reproductive rights

    • Posted By: misterharban @ 08/27/2008 4:26:24 PM

      The last Guttmacher statistic cited is not from that source and refers to the percent of live births out of wedlock, not abortions. Sorry for the mistake.

  • Posted By: thehappyamerican @ 08/26/2008 9:00:13 PM

    The DNC reaction to Abortion is IGNORE IT or ATTACK CHRISTIANS on it! Attacking Christians with the weak ticket the DNC has at present can militate against an Obama victory in the Christians striking back threw the ballot box!
    So... IGNORE IT is the way they intend to stealth on by this very important issue.And others.
    Thats what you gotta do when the ticket is lacking substance!

    • Posted By: teddyo @ 08/27/2008 12:54:57 AM

      What do you know about being Christ like. Not even God himself makes you do something you don't want to do. It's called free will. It's her choice. And if your faced with a decision that may tear you apart I hope you make the right one.

      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:26:45 AM

        There's also such a thing as criminal actions. And the society has laws to prevent them. And killing one's offspring is a heinous crime, one of the most sickening crimes imaginable. One can choose to do it, but then one should pay his debt to society when caught.

      • Posted By: catspaw @ 08/27/2008 2:12:16 PM

        Hi teddyo, I wish people could understand what a woman, or even a girl, goes through with this choose. As Obama said it should only be between her and her doctor. But he is going to do everything possible to help reduce or prevent this type of unwant pregency.

        Heck, my mom even tried by telling my brothers to keep their peckers in their pants. Didn't help. But they stay with their girls and made the decision together on what was to be done. They choose life w/ another couple.

        • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 8:17:50 PM

          Quote: "But he is going to do everything possible to help reduce or prevent this type of unwant pregency.".

          I must've missed that... exactly how is O. going to accomplish this?

          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:21:59 AM

            And then there was silence...

            Just like you always hear when you want to hear some substance from Obama or his followers...

    • Posted By: dark.energy363 @ 08/28/2008 2:31:06 PM

      Keep your religion to yourself.

    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:03:18 PM

      .....and then you woke up from your wet dream, sad and sticky.

      • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 9:21:16 PM

        Peace out, Johnsonium and just_askin. Keep up the good work.

        • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:10:36 PM

          Yes, thank you both. This thread has been one long ad for McCain.

          • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 11:25:45 PM

            Dream on, old man.

            • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:27:19 PM

              Who said I was old, young fool?

              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 11:35:58 PM

                Who said I was young, Sparky? And you just broke your pledge not to respond to my comments. You're a man of your word.

                • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:41:26 PM

                  I never made any pledge. I only said I was done here.

                  I don't consider that any kind of promise.

                  I simply changed my mind when I saw you cowards ganging up on Skylight.

                  Too bad if you don't like it.

                  • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 11:45:58 PM

                    Ah, you're always the hero. I don't care what you do, blog away.

                    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:49:41 PM

                      And you're never the hero.

                      Damn shame. Especially for any of your unfortunate offspring.

                      • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 12:02:06 AM

                        Insults are always a good substitute for argument, don't you think? I can't say that you excel at them though.

                        How do you find some much time to blog? Shouldn't you be busy making more babies?

                        • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/27/2008 12:06:29 AM

                          I've made mine, and I didn't kill them.

                          The real question is why are you here when the Democratic convention's going on?

                          Just not interested?

                          • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 12:14:31 AM

                            Yeah, but shouldn't you be making more? Times a wastin'. So many gametes, so little time.

                            And I don't worship at anybody's altar: Democrat or Republican. Besides I was a registered Republican until the last election. But moderate Republicans are about as rare now as teats on a bull.

                            • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/27/2008 12:18:19 AM

                              You're no moderate. And no Republican.

                              I really was a Democrat until the party went nuts after GWB won the 2000 election. And then decided it would be the party of treason.

                              I should have dumped it a long time ago because of the wholesale murdering of babies thing, but I had a soft spot for JFK.

                              I still do. But with the understanding that if he were alive today, given his policies of a strong national defense and lower taxes and going to the moon, he'd be a Republican.

                              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 12:41:51 AM

                                You know what I find interesting. Conservatives like yourself use the term "liberal" in the same way that "Jew" was used in Nazi Germany. Maybe you'd like to brand us all with a big red "L" and put us in re-education camps. Or maybe just deal with all the "elitists" much in the same way as Pol Pot did.

                                And if might surprise you that I'm pro death penalty, especially with respect to terrorists, whether domestic (McVeigh, clinic/Olympics bombers) or foreign (Bin Laden). I believe in the Powell doctrine, even when the neo-cons described Iraq as a cakewalk. I believe in free trade. But like Goldwater (I was around when he ran for president), I also believe government should stay out of private matters.

                                I even supported McCain at one time, at least before he was emasculated by Bush. It's ironic that he could not even stand up to Bush over torture, given his time in prison in NV. But now according to Bush and McCain, it's clear that he was never "tortured" by his captors, only subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques. When McCain caved on this and other issues, it became very clear that he's just more of the McSame.

                                • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/27/2008 1:03:57 AM

                                  "You know what I find interesting. Conservatives like yourself use the term "liberal" in the same way that "Jew" was used in Nazi Germany. "

                                  Don't you see the irony there. While you are decrying people for using liberal as a slur, you lump all conservatives into a slur. You conservatives.

                                  Anyway, the difference between a liberal and a Jew is that one is a choice and one is a condition. You don't have to be a liberal. A Jew has to be a Jew.

                                  Now, you'll have to look pretty hard to find someplace where I said I wanted bodily harm to come to you-- like the Nazi's did to the Jews. What I have done is argued against your flawed and morally corrupt philosophy.

                                  You have it in you head, I guess, that freedom means you can espouse any stupid old thing and not have anyone question it. But that isn't how the world works. And standing up for conservatives values doesn;t make me a Nazi, no matter what your subscription to the Nation tells you.

                                  I'm glad you are not a down-the-line leftist. That means there's some hope for you. In time you might even come to understand that this life is temporary and that you will ultimately have to meet your creator. Are you sure your philosophy would be one you'd be proud of? Would you look God in the eye and say, Sorry, old chap, but I wasn't interested in raising the little buggers.

                                  If nothing else, you should be able to rid this cartoonish image you have of conservatives. That we are stupid, thoughtless, and cling to God out of ignorance and intellectual laziness. That's all garbage.

                                  Me, I was a liberal much like yourself noit to many years ago. So I had to make that journey myself. But thank God I did. I couldn't stand my old liberal self now. What a sad, hopeless kid, with no future, even though I was making much more money. Now I'm a husband and a dad and a humble servent of Christ.

                                  And I'm the richest guy I know.

                                  • Posted By: teddyo @ 08/27/2008 1:32:05 AM

                                    Jim just to set you straight ....You don't have to be a Jew if you don't want to be. Even if you were born into it. Judaism is a religion. ( not a skin color or a race) And you can change if you want to.

                                    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/27/2008 2:13:03 AM

                                      I was talking about ethnic Jews.

                                      I don't think the Nazis asked the Jews about their theological positions.

                                      They just rounded all of the ethnic Jews up and slapped a star on them.

                                  • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 1:31:40 AM

                                    By conservatives, I mean Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, and such like. All the gods of the current conservative pantheon. It doesn't take a lot of Google searches to find some really amazing quotes. Sometimes I think its a big schtick to cash in, but then again, that's not how their general audience sees it.

                                    Wow, I've progressed from liberal to leftist (it sounds so Marxist). How about the term, "progressive"?

                                    Since I have no children, then I must be in real trouble. Letting all that sperm go to waste.

                                    Oh and as to the judgement thing--a heads up. Most of your pro-life evangelical Protestant buddies (easily > 90%) believe you are, as a Catholic, are going straight to Hell because you are not a true Christian. How do I know this? It's what I was taught from childhood in my good ol' Bible-believing church. It's what my parents still believe. If you doubt it, go ask some good Southern Baptist preacher and press him as to what he really thinks (but careful, he may try to convert you). I would say that Catholics in general are probably a little bit more generous in this regard as to final destinations of Protestants deprived of the sacraments. But evangelicals (not just the more fundamentalist types) place you in the same boat as Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims, Buddhists, and atheists--on a fast boat to eternal damnation. They may hem and haw about it, but when push comes to shove it's what they believe. Kind of a different perspective, don't you think, on the Big Tent?

                                    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/27/2008 1:42:01 AM

                                      I know what Evangelicals believe, and in some cases you're right and in others you're not. But so what? Their wrong thinking doesn't make all Christian thought wrong. Even all of theirs wrong. Any more than Piltdown Man proves that evolution is a crock. Because science was wrong once, or some scientists were wrong, doesn't make science wrong.

                                      I disagree with Evangelicals on many things, from the baptism of infants to the Rapture to praying to the Holy Mother. But so what. I see them as brothers-in-Christ. I pray for them. I hope God opens their hearts.

                                      And I stand with them when they denounce the evil of abortion.

                                      • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 2:06:52 AM

                                        Evangelical Protestants see Catholics as pawns in their quest for secular power. Even though abortion and birth control were long a issue with Catholics, most evangelicals were not concerned one bit about abortion until the 80s Falwell and his cronies saw it as a political wedge issue. I never hear anything about abortion in fundamentalist churches until after Reagan was elected. Before that it was all Communists, Rock music, and evolution.

                                        But a bunch of evangelicals in a room together and see how many are willing to say Catholics are real Christians. I think it is about as likely as someone in the same group saying they believe in evolution.

                                        Don't underestimate their power. I will be surprised if Romney is VP, given that they think he is a polygamist heretic (one party official in our state said as much). And they were more than willing to tell lies about McCain in 2000. Now that he has learned to assume the proper position, he probably will do better (though James Dobson, the evangelical pope of Colorado Springs has yet to confer his blessing since he is a known adulterer).


                                        I'm sure you know the sorry history of Catholics in America, starting with their discrimination because they were the wrong kind of European immigrant. And you know the lies about JFK as an agent of the Vatican. These prejudices are submerged out of expediency, but they are still there. Don't doubt it for one minute.

                                  • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 1:33:36 AM

                                    Oh, BTW, I'm glad you have a happy and healthy family. That's the most important thing in life.

                              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 12:47:10 AM

                                "You're no moderate. And no Republican." I keep forgetting that GOP now stands for God's Own Party.

                                • Posted By: teddyo @ 08/27/2008 12:59:05 AM

                                  you mean gut out people

      • Posted By: thehappyamerican @ 08/26/2008 10:59:42 PM

        have a Clinton Cigar

  • Posted By: teddyo @ 08/26/2008 7:57:14 PM

    Its not my business to make this choice for any women. I strongly believe It's between them and there maker. But what I will comment on is .... Bush sent young healthy fully grown folks(out of there mothers womb for years) and sent them to die in this lie/oil war. And not a one was his own children.

    • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 8:06:25 PM

      Somehow it's better to kill our troops and foreigners in pursuit of oil.

      • Posted By: thehappyamerican @ 08/26/2008 8:51:33 PM

        Fewer young Americans die in Iraq than on the roads and highway in the US. US casualties is a matter of perspective. Abortion is always fatal to a young American when done.
        War is something young people can come back from!!! And do in most cases!
        Not so with abortion!
        One thing we all know is , you consume oil to live and be miserable, whine, complain and hate Americans. Beginning with the very young!
        I think you'd urinate on the AIDS quilt if you could blame the stain on US military personnel or Christians.

        • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 8:59:39 PM

          If someone urinated on the AIDS quilt, I don't think I my first suspect would be military personnel. Now the other suspect you mention, definitely would be under the umbrella of suspicion. 'Cause we know that some Christians believe God hates the gays and wants them all dead.

          • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 6:55:45 PM

            More bs from just_Askin. God hates gays and wants them all dead? Geez... please tell me you're more than twelve years old...

            • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 9:21:00 PM

              Oh, and your "technique" of calling everyone you disagree with stupid or a 12-year own--it's so damn effective. Such a devastating attack! There's clearly no retort to a conservative calling a liberal stupid.

              And your mom wants you to get off the computer and take out the trash, now!

              • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 10:20:18 PM

                Read your own posts... God hates Gays? I could've missed something, but I think you're the only one who's said idiotic things like that. You're just pissed off that someone has actually called you on your own childish bullsh!t.

                • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 10:38:52 PM

                  Oh please, you talking to a former evangelical. Abortion and gays go hand in hand. The new Republicans can't play the Commie card anymore, and the lower taxes for the rich message does seem to have traction ... so all that's left are these two wedge issues to sway the electorate. And play them they will, because they know for some people it will make the sale.

                  The only BS that is being called is yours--and you don't like it.

                  • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:13:44 AM

                    Abortions and gays do go hand and hand. And when science figures out how to determine the "gay gene" and the homosexuals realize that people are aborting their babies because they might be gay, wait and see if the homosexuals aren't marching with the Evangelicals against you baby killers.

              • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/28/2008 4:30:46 PM

                My techniique of calling everyone a 12 year old? No, not everyone. In fact, only one.

            • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/27/2008 9:17:47 PM

              Actually it's not God--it's people. How about you, are you down with Fred Phelps and God Hates Fags?

        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 8:54:07 PM

          Abortion isn't fatal to an American, unless it kills the mother.

          People dying on the highways weren't sent to their death through avarice and deceit by a duplicitous president.

          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:48:12 PM

            "Abortion isn't fatal to an American, unless it kills the mother."

            Here's a man following a technicality straight to hell.

            I'm sorry, did I say man. Not possible. Poor not yet mature liberal.

            That's what I meant.

            • Posted By: catspaw @ 08/27/2008 2:36:47 PM

              Check your history before RvW, women, desprite women, will find any why to have an abortion. That means going to the "back ailies" and have a unbent coat hanger stuck into the womb. More times then not, the person had no idea of that they were doing. Tear the woman to pieces to were she would not be able to have anymore children, or worst, She would bleed to death. I rather have women go to a clinic with a doctor that will have to answer AMA if something like would happen to her.

              • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:11:23 AM

                Okay, and check out the millions of men and women who killed their babies and spent the rest of their lives regretting it.

          • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 7:59:42 PM

            Why do you continue to make these idiotic comparisons? Can you simply not stick to the issue here?

            Obviously not.

        • Posted By: dark.energy363 @ 08/28/2008 3:19:38 PM

          Christian dogma is nothing more than a tool of the state. For your type to discount the death of our young men only to fatten the wallets of the wealty is just another examply of the hypocrisy shown by those on the right. You dont care about the unborn, not really. Your type are only concerned with abortions because there will be less disposal individuals for your wars.

        • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 8:56:36 PM

          How convenient for you to not consider the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of foreigners killed.

          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:34:28 PM

            How convenient of you not to remember the hundreds of thousands if not millions that were saved from Saddam's torture chambers, mass graves, and tyranny.

            • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 11:43:22 PM

              How convenient of you to forget that we provided support for the said Saddam.

              Q. How was GW Bush so sure Saddam had weapons of mass destruction? A. He had a copy of the receipt!

              • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 7:55:12 PM

                Let me see....

                Saddam admitted having them.

                He used them on his own people.

                He used them on Iran.

                He threatened us with them up until the invasion.

                He always deemed them necessary to his survival.

                He held daily televised drills with his men in full chemical dress gear up until the invasion.

                He taunted the UN with threats of chemical warfare if anyone tried to invade Iraq.

                He fired shots over the heads of UN (not US) inspectors) while proclaiming he had no weapons.

                Question. How was just_askin so sure Saddam didn't have any chemical weapons?

                First... they weren't left out on every street corner after the invasion as Just_askin thought they would be, and second, because Saddam said so! And fool that you are, you believed him.


          • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 6:57:19 PM

            WTF does this have to do with abortion and a women's right to choose?

        • Posted By: teddyo @ 08/27/2008 12:16:51 AM

          Dear unhappyamerican There is a big difference between a women making a decision with her own body and that lying murderer Bush who has only dollar signs in his eyes. $$$ oil,oil,oil

          • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 5:57:37 PM

            Lying murderer? lol... Grow up, why don't you?

    • Posted By: Esencia08 @ 08/27/2008 3:59:57 AM

      Bingo! There you go Teddy that is the same argument that I make and there are others that have to do with the theological arguments that the catholic church has tried to brainwash people with for over two thousand years. The government has no business dictating the individual choice of women with respect to obtaining abortions because the constitution forbids the abridgement of individuals rights in a constitutional republic.

      The United States was not designed to be a true democracy in the sense of having a rule by the majority because it leads to the establishment of a tyranny, in this case the continued tyranny and oppression of a religious instiution and its adherents. A religious institution that in parthership with tyrannical nations has engaged in and sanctioned numerous wars whereby millions of innocent lives that exist outside of the womb have been taken in the brutality of warfare. These same christian " moralists" seem to have no problem with murder being committed in wars commissioned by certain elite interests either.

      • Posted By: dark.energy363 @ 08/28/2008 3:11:20 PM

        Bravo...can you say hypocrisy???

    • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 5:51:54 PM

      While I agree with you that a woman has the right to choose, why in the hell do you make the idiotic comparison between an unborn child and a soldier that signed up voluntarily to go to Iraq?

      Ted.... they have nothing in common!

  • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 7:46:53 PM

    If life doesn't begin at conception, what do you need birth control devices for?

    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:49:47 PM

      It should be called conception control. Good point. Life does begin at conception, just not life that should be afforded the same rights as an actual human being.

      • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 8:18:01 PM

        That's your opinion.

        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 8:26:46 PM

          That's the rational opinion shared by the majority of Americans.

          • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 8:28:12 PM

            A majority may think it, but it doesn't make it right.

            • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 8:32:25 PM

              My sentiments about religion.

              • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 8:34:29 PM

                Your 'sentiments" about religion mean nothing next to a human life.

                • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 8:37:37 PM

                  Please enlighten me with your explanation of how a fetus is worth more than a soldier.

                  • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 8:43:53 PM

                    Obviously you didn't read the article... It is about 'Abortion Wars', not the Iraq War... you can find those articles all over the NW site.

                    • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 8:48:23 PM

                      It's the blatant irony that perpetually spews from the right. A zygote is a human life and therefore sacred, however, killing people with bombs is as right as rain.

                      • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 8:56:32 PM

                        Didn't I just mention that you were on the wrong site? The Iraq war is several articles over.....

                        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 8:59:45 PM

                          It's related. You may not want to address the hypocrisy. I wouldn't if I were you either. However, it's an apt analogy and one that the right never has a decent answer for.

                          • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 9:26:00 PM

                            What hypocrisy? You somehow think abortion, a woman's right to choose, and the Iraq war have something in common.

                            • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:15:00 PM

                              Don't expect a cogent answer to this, Skypoint.

                              He hasn't shown himself to be able to give one yet.

                              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 11:54:41 PM

                                Here's your answer: You don't consider all human life of equal value. A single fetus of Euro-American stock is apparently worth more than several children of Middle Eastern origin, whose parents happen to be Muslim. Once again, do you love little Muslim children or do you see them as all potential suicide bombers in need of preemptive annihilation? Are you pro-life when it comes to the babies of our enemies?

                                • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 8:08:49 PM

                                  There you go again... comparing a develpoing human being to an adult soldier that has volunteered to serve in Iraq. It's obvious that because you have no real argument, you must make these pathetic, stupid, and just plain ignorant comparisons!

                                  • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:06:55 AM

                                    Yep, that sums this loser up.

                            • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:37:22 PM

                              Let's not forget the hypocrisy of decrying death in another land and celebrating murder here as a "right."

                    • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 9:05:50 PM

                      That may be, but there is this strange juxtaposition of beliefs in that loving fetuses, and wanting to kill Iraqis, criminals, liberals. etc., are logically consistent positions for people who claim to be "pro-life."

                      Some Catholics do have consistent views about the sanctity of life, but I would guess their are a minority of those people who claim to be pro-life.

                      • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 9:19:33 PM

                        That's pure nonsense.

                        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:24:31 PM

                          Devastating analysis. We'll take your word for it.

                          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:07:53 PM

                            Like you;ve offered anything better all day.

                            You've been the most ignorant poster here.

                            Well, next to the racist.

                          • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 10:52:47 PM

                            And 'strange juxtaposition" is a fact based analysis? C'mon....

                        • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 9:23:39 PM

                          I agree that this pro-life for some, pro-death for others is complete nonsense.

                    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 8:51:01 PM

                      The same people who decry "killing babies" are sending our youth to the slaughter. Yes, these topics are related, especially if your argument against abortion is of the "promotion of life" variety.

                      • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 8:59:41 PM

                        And who are these 'same people"?

                        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:01:14 PM

                          Are you a rare anti-abortion, anti Iraq war fellow?

                          • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 9:45:53 PM

                            Though I do not agree with abortion, I believe every woman should have the right to choose. I draw the line at partial birth. I will argue with you till doomsday, but never try to force someone to walk in my direction.

                            Along with most of congress and about 70 percent of other Americans, I supported the Iraq invasion. Today, like everyone else, I want it over with.

                          • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 9:03:14 PM

                            I am.

                            • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:06:06 PM

                              I wasn't talking to you.

                              • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 9:14:04 PM

                                Oh, kitty has claws! Sucks for you to have an pro-life, anti-war person doesn't it. It shoots your logic to sh**.

                                • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:19:11 PM

                                  No. I'm still waiting for Skypoint to respond...unless you are the same person.

                  • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 8:39:36 PM

                    you have got to be joking....

                    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 8:45:50 PM

                      It is a joke. A fetus doesn't match up to a soldier, or any other actual persons walking around this Earth.

                      • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 6:15:50 PM

                        You're right! And neither does a baby 10 minutes before it has been born. Or 10 minutes after.

                      • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 9:08:06 PM

                        I'm not sure that this is the case in their 21st century fertility cult.

                    • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 8:51:22 PM

                      How about the fetus of a white American versus a starving child in sub-Saharan Africa? Which is worth more to you?

              • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 8:33:49 PM

                I never said anything about religion. You don't need to believe in any religion to know what's right.

                • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 8:43:45 PM

                  Your concept of right and wrong is most likely rooted in fear that was instilled in your from sunday school, and therefore worthless to me.

                  • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 9:06:31 PM

                    Then don't respond to my posts.

                    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:10:42 PM

                      Exactly. It's about control. You want to control a woman's body and tell mcleodmn when he can post. It's all about control.

                      • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 6:29:33 PM

                        Control... Maybe I've missed something, but I don't think Jim said that. You, on the other hand, almighty thinker that you are, have actually proclaimed when all human life actually begins! And anyone else with a differing opinion is a fool.

                        And you, mcleod and justasking are not about control... sheesh

                    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:05:53 PM

                      He can't not respond. He's a fanatic.

                  • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/27/2008 6:20:00 PM

                    Sigmund mcleod... I can see you stroking your gotee right now.... where do you dream up this bullsh!t? THAT is what's worthless.

                • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 8:45:13 PM

                  Your truth cloaking device is not working. Your religious motivations are readily apparent.

                  • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 8:58:37 PM

                    I a not a particularly religious person, but if it makes you feel better to think so, knock yourself out.

                    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:02:27 PM

                      Not having religious dogma driving your argument makes anti-abortion attitudes even more absurd. At least with religious nuts, you can understand that they believe their 'god' thinks it sinful.

                      • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 9:10:03 PM

                        So as a non-religious person, I should buy into your argument. I don't think so. Any idiot with a brain knows that sucking the brains out of a living being is wrong. You don't have to be a religious person to know that. Let's agree we disagree. You will never change my mind that erring on the side of life is better, and I am sure I will never change your mind that killing a baby, fetus, whatever your label is, is alright with you. Fair enough?

                        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:12:38 PM

                          I don't want to change your mind. Your mind is likely not worth the effort. My goal in these discussions is to assail the weak arguments thrown up by those on the other side for the benefit of those who aren't entrenched on either side.

                          • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 9:19:11 PM

                            I don't find my argument weak, I find yours sad and misguided. You have an infant. Does that not do anything to you? I have twin babies that both had markers for Downs. Guess what? Some women would have aborted them. Mine were born completely normal. How many women do you think abort their babies over bad information?

                            • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:23:26 PM

                              No kidding. We had amnio done because they said that the baby had a 1 in 5 chance of Down's. Turns out he was fine. If it had come back positive for Down's, I would have suggested abortion. My girlfriend insisted that she wouldn't go that route no matter what. It would have been her choice. We had good discussions about it. It would be selfish to bring a child into this world with that kind of disability. It's a logical mistake to assume that life is always better than the absence of it.

                              • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:17:03 PM

                                True and that's why I suggest you enjoy the absence of it awhile.

                                Since you're all for it for others, let's see how it works for you.

                        • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 9:21:28 PM

                          Sucking brains out of a living being is wrong? So I take it you are a vegan too.

                    • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 9:15:23 PM

                      Aw shucks, I'm not particularly religious either, but somehow I get the feeling that you think you are morally superior. Now what could possibly be the source of this moral certainty? Science, philosophy? Somehow I doubt it. It usually comes down to "Well that's the way I was raised."

                  • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 8:48:10 PM

                    Maybe I missed a post or two, but you and mcleod are the only two that keep bringing up religion.

      • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 8:27:10 PM

        Really? life begins at conception, but it's not a real life.. right? Certainly not worth of living, until you say so, correct?

        So exactly when do you decide that life actually begins?

        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 8:45:06 PM

          Certainly. A cow is alive, yet we slaughter it. Surely, we make a distinction between a human and a cow. And a cow is far more sentient than a 3 month old fetus.

          If there's a line to be drawn, it should be at viability outside the womb.

          • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 8:54:48 PM

            The 'cow' is not expected to grow into a 'sentient' human being. Big difference.

            So all life begins outside the womb, according to you. That means you have no problem with partial birth or late term abortion?

            • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 8:57:51 PM

              I think that if there is a line to be drawn, and I'm not sure there is, it should be at the point of viability outside the womb. Now, the vast majority of so-called "partial birth abortions" are done due to dangers to the health of the mother.

              • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 9:04:47 PM

                Ever heard of an emergency c-section?

                • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:08:26 PM

                  Yes. My son was born that way just four-months ago. I got to watch the whole thing. I saw parts of internal anatomy I never want to see again. However, there are times when a C-Section will not solve the issue.

                  • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 9:13:02 PM

                    You had a son 4 months ago? God I feel sorry for you and him. Since the birth of my children, I could never understand ones "right to choose".

                    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:18:36 PM

                      I have three kids. We chose to have them. That's what it is. A choice. Others in different circumstances might choose differently.

                      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:09:14 PM

                        I'm sure your kids are happy to know that, given other circumstances, you'd have chopped them into pieces and chucked them into the trash.

                        You should get Parent of the Year for that.

                    • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 9:18:31 PM

                      Oxytocin might have something to do with that.

    • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 8:40:34 PM

      You're so right, why birth control devices when abstinence is so much more effective? But abstinence means babies can't be made and God doesn't like that. You're frustrating his efforts to get them out of the gonads of you and your partner. Thousands of possible babies are waiting for the chance to be born. Who are you to say that life begins at conception?

      I'm guessing pro-life women choose to be pregnant from the time of their first period until menopause, because who are you to decide when babies are to be made?

      • Posted By: dark.energy363 @ 08/28/2008 3:34:41 PM

        You had better not masturbate, how many future lives have you just condemned ???

    • Posted By: dark.energy363 @ 08/28/2008 3:32:28 PM

      You can argue that life begins at conception and thats all. No claims to any "soul" can be applied. To apply such a claim would violate the separation of church and state. All might not beleive as you do. But if you so choose to cross that line then you will have to consider god, if you believe in such; the greatest abortionist of all as a full 20% of all pregnacies end in spontaneous abortions.

    • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 7:51:38 PM

      I hope this is a rhetorical question, or something other than a real question. Natural selection has your number.

      • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 8:17:15 PM

        My comment is obviously too hard for you to understand.

        • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 8:19:47 PM

          I was hoping I didn't. But unfortunately, I do.

          • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 8:28:40 PM

            Yeah b/c babies are so awful.

            • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 8:43:35 PM

              No...babies aren't awful. Your manged logic is.

              • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 9:02:07 PM

                My logic is just fine.

                • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:05:37 PM

                  Hardly.

                  • Posted By: cuppa jo @ 08/26/2008 9:12:01 PM

                    Hurling insults must make you feel better.

                    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:17:43 PM

                      It's not an insult. Your first post was tortured, and made no sense.

                      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 11:12:11 PM

                        No, it made perfect sense.

                        You simply aren't intelligent to understand it.

  • Posted By: reinadelaz @ 08/26/2008 7:17:42 PM

    Neither the word nor the act of abortion is ever mentioned in the Bible. Making abortion illegal will not stop the oldest surgical procedure known to mankind. Senator Obama was right when he said no woman comes to this decision casually. If abortion violates your morality, by all means, do not have one. However, if it is the right choice for my little sister, your morality should not force her into a back alley.

    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:20:44 PM

      Abortion rates are highest in red states....as are divorce and domestic abuse rates. It's not a demographic anomaly.

      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:05:17 AM

        That's because there are a lot of poor black people in those states, and Margeret Sanger and the eugenic villains at Planned Parenthood always targeted blacks for genocide.

    • Posted By: Esencia08 @ 08/27/2008 4:31:28 AM

      My sister mankind cant give birth only womankind can do that, but yes you are absolutely correct that women have been having abortions for thousands of years across the world using natural methods such as herbs that induce the woman to begin menstrating again. One could say that an abortion is the process of inducing the resumption of the monthly menstral cycle.

  • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:40:29 PM

    New liberals to this debate, please study the following response you will be using.

    Bush.

    Fox News.

    If there's war, killing babies is cool.

    Bush.

    Fascism.

    Pro-life nuts.

    The Constitution says there's a separation of Church and State, even if it doesn't.

    Bush and Cheney.

    Jesus was a dirty Jewish Zombie.

    Boy, those conservatives sure are stupid.

    You can't understand a woman, but we can understand what it's like to be ____.

    Bush.

    Death penalty and war.

    Life doesn't being until someone's 40.

    Maturity doesn't being until someone's dead.

    My idea of freedom is chopping an infant into pieces.

    Your biblical morality doesn't matter! My morality, which is based on nothing, is superior!

    Bush, Bush, Bush.

    And when all else fails, you can use this one:

    Bush!

    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:46:00 PM

      Wow. I hadn't even mentioned bush. I'm pro-bush. In fact, without bush women wouldn't even be able to get pregnant in the first place.

      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:50:01 PM

        Yuk, yuk, yuk.

        Here's your champion, girls.

        A regular gentleman.

        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:52:33 PM

          Exactly. I have a sense of humor, something sorely lacking in a majority of the right. I'm not exactly sure why.

          I created a bumper sticker for the 2004 election: "Bisexuals for More Bush AND Dick"

          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:55:36 PM

            You call that a sense of humor?

            Dick and Bush jokes-- whew! Don't break the originality bank all in one post!

            • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:58:44 PM

              It wasn't for you, friendo. You are a humorless git.

              • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 7:00:52 PM

                No, I'm pretty funny. ANd have a great sense of humor.

                I just don't laugh at things and people that aren't funny.

                Because only stupid and crazy people do.

                • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:04:06 PM

                  And modest too...

                  Since you think you are winning this debate, your rational analysis capabilities are highly suspect.

                  • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 7:10:08 PM

                    Yeah, I was noticing that humilty was your strong point.

                    Must have been all that stuff how you need a better foil for your every so brilliant thoughts.

                    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:19:24 PM

                      No "we" need a better foil. There are some dumb posters espousing liberal views. However, the majority on the left are much more learned and capable of facile logical arguments than their right-wing counterparts. Much much more. We have reason on our side. The right has some strengths as well. Namely, their lack of nuance. Forrest Gump had no nuance. People like that for some reason. They like the simple person who seems determined despite their mental attenuation. Both Bush Jr. and Reagen had this sort of appeal. Thankfully, at least in the short-term, America has come to their senses. However, as a realist I think it's cyclical. Bush Jr. probably isn't our last hollow cowboy Republican as president. Give it a decade or two and we'll forget what having a moron in the oval office has done to us over the last eight years. We'll once again fall in love with the simpleton who exudes certainty, not unlike the certainty of the first lemming plunging off the cliff.

                      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 7:31:35 PM

                        You keep believing you're the height of reason. But your're not. And even if you were, the deification of reason is no good either. Stalin was being pretty reasonable when he did the purge-- surely some of those people wanted to kill him. So he slaughtered millions to protect himself and his warped vision of the world. Perfectly reasonable.

                        And perfectly insane.

                        The left has always taken "reason" to its insane limits. Hey, don't want a baby? kill it. Perfectly reasonable. Don't want to defend the nation? Run to Canada. Perfectly reasonable. Don't want to hold a job? Make a virtue out of sticking it to the "man."

                        Always, the left turns virtues into vices, vices into virtues. The hero is a warmonger, the coward is the peacenik. The murderer is the woman's rights activist, the defender of the helpless is the fascist. The believer who studies religion his whole life is stupid, the non-believer who dismisses religion out of hand is enlightened.

                        It's garbage, and quite frankly so are you clowns.

                        I'm done here. The glory is once I hit the little x, you idiots will disappear.

                        But the screams of the babies you helped slaughter will haunt you for an eternity.

                        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:56:56 PM

                          And there goes the coward Jim. Surely, there will be another right-wing simpleton to take his place. We need to maintain the rational to irrational proportion in this discussion. However, methinks Jim isn't done. He seems to like to have the last word to much, despite how clumsy and obtuse that word may be. I would bet he's back later after the discussion dies down to attach his sophomoric replies to the most cogent of arguments.....as if you could negate Martin Luther Kings "I have a dream" speech with "Yeah? So what?" Such is the delusion of those that nature has not provided a bountiful intellect.

                          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:02:29 AM

                            Coward?

                            At least I don't want to kill my babies because I'm not man enough to raise them.

                            How cowardly is that?

                          • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 8:03:00 PM

                            Oh, he'll be back. Looking for some validation from other right wingers....

                            • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 8:22:17 PM

                              As if you haven't done that all night...

                              • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 8:26:03 PM

                                I was wondering what happened to the peanut gallery.

                                • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 8:38:55 PM

                                  Why? How can you wonder what happened to yourself... did you wander off?

                                  • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 8:47:10 PM

                                    I told you the righties somehow play tag team. One exits the stage and on comes another one. I guess even the greatest boxers need someone to spar with.

                        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:38:40 PM

                          They aren't babies. They are not equivalent to actual real people walking the Earth. Until you abandon that rhetorical device, you will never make headway with anyone outside of your rabid pro-life friends.

                          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 7:40:49 PM

                            Keep telling yourself that.

                            Sleep will come easier. For awhile.

                            Goodbye.

                            • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:43:04 PM

                              Show how a bunch of cells are equivalent to my 11-year old son. Please. I'm begging you.

                              • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 9:04:00 PM

                                No need to beg... how the hell do you think your son got here, idiot?

                                • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 9:16:42 PM

                                  Tell me how my son, as a bunch of cells, is equivalent to his current sentient self? If we had chosen to abort him at 3 months it is not the same as killing him now. It simply isn't.

                                  Potential doesn't mean anything. Every one of the 200 million sperm in my ejaculate can potentially make a human being. Should I be out seeding every young lass that walks by? Preposterous.

                                  Somehow the Monty Python song "Every Sperm is Sacred" is running through my head.

                                  • Posted By: Skypoint @ 08/26/2008 9:37:50 PM

                                    So you and I see it differently. At three months, I saw my son in the process of growing into the human being he became.

                            • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 7:44:49 PM

                              I've got to give it to you, Jimbo. You are a glutton for punishment. Ignorance suits you well.

                          • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 8:01:15 PM

                            Are those the screams of the babies in limbo at the edge of hell being punished because they are tainted by original sin, having no hope of every making it in heaven.

            • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 7:03:35 PM

              Maybe you can add some jokes about liberals, minorities, or cigarettes & dead Iranians. Strike the last one, McCain's already done it.

              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 7:07:46 PM

                Or about his wife--the ***. Oops McCain's done that one too. Or about a women being raped by a gorilla--end expressing gratitude before she dies. Scratch that too, McCain's used it.

                Now JK, is that your sense of humor? Does John McCain make you laugh?

                • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:11:22 PM

                  McCain was funny on SNL. I'll give him that. He's got a sense of humor, one more contemporary than most senior citizens. In fact, shouldn't hosting SNL make McCain "The Biggest Celebrity in the World"?

                  • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 7:20:32 PM

                    I used to like John McCain (he was my senator) until he was emasculated by Bush & Rove.

                    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:37:15 PM

                      Me too. I was thinking about voting for him in 2000. It would have been my one and only Republican vote. I thought he really was a straight-shooter. He's not. He got his nuts handed to him in a jar by Bush and he never reattached them. Sycophants do not a good president make.

          • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 6:58:01 PM

            Because they think they are going to hell if they engage in that kind of talk. Oh wait, unless they ask for forgiveness. Then everything is OK. ;-)

        • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 7:00:00 PM

          Yeah, but read JK's comments below about how easily bad girls spread their legs.

    • Posted By: marksgershenson @ 08/27/2008 12:26:49 AM

      WTF are you talking about? What and who are you, King Tut? The problems and labels that you list are ridiculous. I am on the conservative side of the spectrum, and I have to laugh at your list. If the heat is too hot in the kitchen, feel free to post elsewhere. Extremism on either side is ridiculous. People have their own minds as to what to blog or not blog. Are you that juvenille? Don't even bother answering that.

    • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 6:58:18 PM

      Did Newsweak appoint you moderator of this comment forum. I thought the MSM discriminated against you guys.

      Mostly it's a nice list top show the contradictory positions of the supposedly morally superior. Tell us how you love Muslim children and wish the best of them--even if they live in Iran or the Gaza Strip. I dare you.

      • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 7:20:26 PM

        He'll do it to prove you wrong. Then he'll run to church and repent.

    • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 6:53:29 PM

      You're right. Jesus wasn't a Jewish Zombie. He never really existed.

      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:59:38 PM

        Sure he didn't.

        You just jumped the shark. No scholar worth anything believes Jesus never existed...

        But you, the comments section know-it-all, know better than all of them.

        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:03:08 PM

          Actually, he most likely existed. Lots of people have existed. Several billion of them in fact.

          • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 7:10:55 PM

            I don't dispute it. I just had a knee jerk to get a rise out of a religious zealot. I'll behave next time.

  • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 5:44:13 PM

    Can we have a moratorium on questions in headlines? Fox News uses this effectively to their slanted aims. "Democrats: Really Traitors?" Then when called on it, they can say that they were just asking a question, not asserting anything. In reality, it's asserting the thrust of the question in a passive way.
    Personally, I'm sick of it. The media just wants to stoke controversy and when there is none, they simply invent it, as in this case.

    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 5:47:21 PM

      Right, no controversy. The Bishop of Washington comments on everything that's said on a news network.

      • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 5:50:25 PM

        If pro-lifers don't like it, they can vote for McCain. Good riddance. The majority are pro-choice anyway.

        • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 5:54:56 PM

          You are very wrong. The majority are pro-life.

          http://www.lifenews.com/nat4021.html

          • Posted By: raddave @ 08/26/2008 6:53:52 PM

            Actually you are wrong, polls show that a majority of people think abortions should be either legal in all circumstances or some circumstances. http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

            • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:22:17 PM

              You are correct. Notice how the guy stopped posting on this thread, once it was pointed out that his stats were based on a skewed poll.

              • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 2:00:30 AM

                Garbage, there are plenty of mainstream polls that say the same thing. Most Americans want to limit abortion. Very few want abortion in all cases. Like Obama wants. And like you want.

                Unlike you, I work for a living. I can't stay here all day posting on a messageboard.

                That, and that alone, explains my disappearance.

          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 5:58:59 PM

            Why else do you think Obama dances around the abortion question?

            He knows politically and morally it's a loser for him.

            • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:01:20 PM

              Because he's trying to build a big tent. He's nicer than me. Personally, religious nuts can stay out of my tent. But, I'm not running for president.

              • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:07:45 PM

                Well, his big tent is about to collapse on him.

                • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:12:53 PM

                  Nope. McCain is toast. Maybe you can go all Lee Harvey Oswald on him when he is elected. That's your only hope to continue the fascism of the last eight years.

                  • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:29:12 PM

                    Seen any polls recently? It's only going to get worse when people get the full dose of who Obama is and what he would mean to the nation.

                    Fascism?

                    I wish you could spend ten minutes in one.

                    No more than ten, though, or that would probably be the end of you.

                    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:32:33 PM

                      In a fascism? You can't be in a fascism. Do you even understand what it means? What am I saying. Of course you don't. Nevermind. I keep making the mistake of taking a gun to a fist fight.

                      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:45:28 PM

                        No, apparently I don't understand what a fascism is.

                        According to you, it appears to be a liberal democracy like ours.

                        Rather than, say, WWII era Italy or Germany...

                        **

                        You know, one way of avoiding a debate you're losing is to keep saying the other guy is stupid. But no reasonable person will believe that, since I keep working you over but good.

                        • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 6:50:37 PM

                          Your ignorance never ceases to amaze.

                          • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:01:50 PM

                            It does cease to amaze me. I shot down his type for many years in blogs. Why of why aren't there any cons with decent argument skills, as well as a grasp of their own material? Instead, we're left with these vacuous fools who think they are winning an argument (Badhdad Bob though Iraq was winning the war too) when they are getting trounced. I guess part of me thinks these logic-impaired folks are not irredeemable. Just call me a softy.

                            • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 7:08:09 PM

                              Blah, blah, blah. You say nothing, get worked over, and then declare the competition too easy.

                              Whatever. If you don;t like the challenge here, move along. truth be told, you're seem no smarter than a B- high school student and you're boring the snot out of me.

                              • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:29:41 PM

                                You proved my point. Your witless, defensive response is like music to me. See, I'm not betting on irrationality as represented by the majority of the right. They are lost. I believe in the rationality of the center who sway elections. I believe they can see your "arguments", full of holes, non responses, and strawmen for what they truly are. So, you can go tit for my tat, but you just become less and less relevant to those who have a mind to make up, with every post you make.

                                • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 1:55:07 AM

                                  You've lost here badly.

                                  You better hope not many people read this. Your cause would be severely damaged.

                              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 7:30:13 PM

                                So in response to your lame insult, I take it you have your GED. Intellectually and morally superiority--who would have thought this possible?

                            • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 7:05:20 PM

                              You are a warrior for our cause. Thank you.

                        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:54:07 PM

                          Democracy has nothing to do with it. Did you know that Hitler was elected? I bet you didn't. Come back when you understand the meaning of the term. Of course, ignorance is your shtick. Why change now, eh?

                          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 7:04:50 PM

                            Um, yes, Hitler was elected. It is ridiculous, however, to make the comparison on Hitler in full control of Germany, where no election was going to dislodge him, and present day America where the president will be stepping down without violence in a few months.

                            But you're too dense to appreciate the difference. If there was a vote, then they're the same.

                            Sorry., but your perception of both history and our present condition is warped beyond any sense.

                            • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:26:28 PM

                              Fascism doesn't come like a thief in the night. It creeps in. We've fixed some of the problem when we threw out the rubber-stamp Congress in 2006. The final nails in the coffin come this November when Obama triumphs. Bush's reign will be seen a dark patch...an inexplicable aberration....sorta like fashion in the 70's. It will be seen as the period where we let fascism get a foothold, only to wash it away before it made such washing impossible.

                            • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 7:16:33 PM

                              Sinclair Lewis: "Fascism will come wrapped in a flag and carrying a Bible."

                          • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 7:15:14 PM

                            Odd, your hypocrisy knows no bounds. You tried that very strategy on me and it didn't work. I'm immune to your Kryptonite.

                            • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 7:23:39 PM

                              LOL! It's called the buybull.

                    • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 6:32:28 PM

                      When the pollsters start calling cell phones. I'll pay attention to the polls. I don't know many people under 35 that have land lines.

                      Try again.

                      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:46:04 PM

                        That's fine, because I don't know many people under 35 who vote.

                        • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 6:51:35 PM

                          You're about to.

                          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 7:14:24 PM

                            Expect disappointment. Like last time. And the time before. And the time before. And the...

                            The young liberals are always going to come out in force!

                            But that just happens to be the day they end up scoring a dime and zoning out.

                            • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:32:41 PM

                              Huh? We've won the popular vote three of the last four presidential elections. Fuzzy math I guess.

                              • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 1:52:52 AM

                                Yep, there a lot of dopes like yourself who live in cities on the coasts. That's why our wise Founders made sure that the middle and less populated states, who hold much of the nation's common sense, got their fair say in the elections.

                            • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 7:28:04 PM

                              Groovy, man.

                            • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 7:27:34 PM

                              How about a lid?

                            • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 7:26:39 PM

                              Scoring a dime? Wow. Seldom are there more clear indicators of one's age.

                        • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 7:17:56 PM

                          That will make your anguish all the greater on election day. Unless Bush bombs Iran on or about November 1, and declares a state of emergency and the suspension of the election.

                        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:54:54 PM

                          I suspect you are right. I bet there aren't a lot of young people in right-wing circles who care enough to vote.

                          • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 7:02:34 PM

                            EXACTLY! And rest assured, all those geriatrics have their rotaries ready to go.

                    • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 7:13:00 PM

                      How about a Christo-fascist state? Is that more to your liking? We're getting closer every day, but don't get your hopes up too high for it. It will likely be concomitant with the collapse of the American empire and the way of life you've grown accustomed to.

            • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 6:05:15 PM

              Yeah, he should learn to memorize the responses fed to him by his handlers, just like McCain.

              Leno: "How many houses do you have?"

              McCain: "I was in prison 5 and one half years."

              Audience: Huh?

          • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:00:35 PM

            No. You are wrong. The majority support Roe V. Wade. The questions asked in those skewed polls are misleading.

            • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:03:27 PM

              Right, the results are always skewed when they don;t say what you want them to say.

              Watch Obama dance around that question!

              • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:11:29 PM

                Ask this question to people and see what percentage you get:

                "Do you believe abortion should be outlawed at any stage of pregnancy?" A majority will say 'No'.

          • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 6:01:10 PM

            Are you really giving a link to a pro life rag in order to get your point across?

          • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 6:00:24 PM

            He's right, you now have to (1) be a Christian (but not an Episcopal or Unitarian or some other such liberal "Christian") and (2) past a litmus test to be a member of the Republican party. You currently do not need to have the personal blessing of the Pope or James Dobson--their proxies can serve that purpose.

  • Posted By: DaveDiana @ 08/26/2008 5:28:39 PM

    Thank You. No amount of mental gymnastics will change the fact that life begins at conception. As a devout Catholic I'm insulted by Nancy Pelosi using her faith to defend her position. Wheher from an atheistic or religous point of view, abortion is completely indefensible. I believe in a hundred years our children will look back on this topic the way we look with revulsion at the very notion of being ale to own another human being, or , yes, even the Nazi genocide. I stopped voting democrat 16 years ago because the party seems completely morally bankrupt on this issue, as well as others.

    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 5:36:35 PM

      Thanks, Dave. You and Mister Harbon have restores some of my faith in humanity.

      What I wish some of these pro-choicers would do is take their children and explain to them how sometimes people need to cut unborn babies to pieces so their mother doesn't have to shop at Costco with the rabble. See if they can get past sentence one before they choke on their own child's horror.

      • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 5:49:03 PM

        Life does begin at conception, but it's not equitable with a fully viable human child....well, not by rational people at least.

        A single-cell egg will should never have the rights that my child has. Viability outside the womb should be the standard. Otherwise, we should just give the pro-lifers the fetuses at nine weeks and see if they can keep them alive without the mother's womb.

        "Love the fetus, hate the child" That's been the true policy of the Republican party for many years. They want as many children to be born without regard to their circumstances. Yet, when poverty encroaches on the well-being of the same child, they turn a blind eye. Hypocrites.

        • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 5:57:09 PM

          Hate the unborn, love themselves.

          That's been the Demcratic platform since Roe v Wade.

          • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:02:35 PM

            The operative word is "unborn". Until men have to bear babies, they should not have a say over a woman's body.

            • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:06:48 PM

              What about women-- can they have say over babies?

              What nonsense. Until you're an employer, you can impose racial quotas on the company. Until you're a victim, you cannot impose laws on criminals... And so on.

              If you really cared about keeping your hands out of people pants, you wouldn;t be reaching into mine to rasie taxes all the time.

              Hypocrites.

              • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:16:57 PM

                Talk about a rambling, nonsensical response. Analogy is a gift not bestowed on everybody.

                As long as half the population must bear children while the other half does not, there can be no equity. Period. I know it takes some intelligence to understand that. I'm not expecting you to.

                I do think there are some intellectuals on the right who would be formidable foes in the arena of debate. Fortunately for us, they rarely post to blogs. Instead, we get people who spout half-baked philosophy and empty talking points without even the slightest prospect of being able to defend their comments. Weak.

                • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 6:20:52 PM

                  It???s a lofty goal, but education is the key to eradicating fundamental religiousness(or all religiousness for that matter). If you look at regions across the world and consider the socio-economic status of that region, you cannot dispute the correlation between the poor areas and those regions where religion thrives. More education = Less religion. Less education = More religion.

                  Now, before the religious crazies jump on my case to tell me about how educated they are, I acknowledge there are exceptions to the rule. But it???s a rule, nonetheless

                  • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:31:30 PM

                    Though you seem to contradict your own argument.

                    • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 6:35:10 PM

                      A catholic school is an oxymoron. Those don't count.

                      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:53:34 PM

                        Yes, the public schools do a much better job.

                        And for those who went to public school, yes, that was sarcasm.

                        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:08:22 PM

                          They do.

                          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 7:18:14 PM

                            That's not what the Ivy League Admissions offices say.

                            • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:33:43 PM

                              That's reply makes no sense at all. In other words, you are consistent.

                              • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 1:49:55 AM

                                Sure, makes no sense. The fact that Ivy league School accept a higher percentage of private Christian students than public school students means nothing.

                                Sorry I needed to spell that out for you. I thought a self-described genius might figure it out, since it wasn't all that difficult a jump.

                  • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:29:55 PM

                    Religion is part of our being. It comes with sentience. I have no hope of eliminating the religious impulse, as misguided as it is, in all people. Some people have the intellect to break free of the shackles of whimsical wishful thinking that takes the form of religion. We are lucky. We are also the minority. Most are enslaved.

                    Religion should be out of our politics. The Founding Fathers knew this. That's why they specifically put into the constitution language forbidding a religious test for office. They thought that far ahead. If we can extricate politics from religion, then it doesn't matter how many people worship a make-believe invisible man. If that's what gets them through the day, then go for it. It's when they bring their nonsense into the public square that problems arise.

                • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:25:50 PM

                  Yeah, you're a regular Kant yourself.

                  • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:33:35 PM

                    I'm not a Kantian. I have read his "Pure Critique of Reason" but I don't subscribe to his philosophy.

                    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:51:44 PM

                      Yeah, sure you have.

                      You mean you read the title when you looked up his name in Wikipedia, right?

              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 6:12:12 PM

                Bottom line, it's all about the Benjamins--isn't it?

                • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:30:36 PM

                  Pretty much. As long as there a profit in abortions, and there are idfiots the profiteers can convince it's a right, the murder factories will keep on with their evil industry.

                  • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:44:24 PM

                    You will never win the argument if you use inflammatory terms that only nutjob pro-lifers (a bit of a redundancy) agree to. Abortion isn't murder. It's not equivalent. You may think so, but the people you seem to think you can convince with your weak rhetoric do not. What you are effectively left doing is preaching to a deranged choir, not winning over the center-minded who represent the only people you have hope of swaying.

                    I could construct a compelling pro-life argument. In fact, I used to be pro-life. I used to be a naive teenager. My arguments at the time were more philosophical than anything. It was all about self-determination. There's still a decent argument to had there. However, I grew up and began to understand the true motivation of those behind the pro-life movement. It's ultimately about control. They want to control and force "wicked" women to pay for their "slutiness". They won't say that, of course, but it's the real motivation behind their fervent zealotry.

                    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 6:48:15 PM

                      "You will never win the argument if you use inflammatory terms that only nutjob pro-lifers (a bit of a redundancy) agree to. "

                      Irony.

                      • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 6:56:19 PM

                        You must be self-identifying as a "nutjob pro-lifer". Fascinating. We agree on something.

                        • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 7:15:59 PM

                          Yes, I'm a right wing nutjob.

                          And you're still someone who supports chopping babies into pieces.

                          I can sleep fine being a rightwing nutjob.

                          How about you, baby killer?

                          • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 7:34:49 PM

                            They aren't babies.

                            • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 1:47:03 AM

                              Keep up the lie.

                              It's all you have left of your humanity.

                  • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 6:45:02 PM

                    Planned Parenthood is non-profit, DB.

        • Posted By: Esencia08 @ 08/27/2008 4:17:21 AM

          Well said johnson! Plus it is natural over the course of human evolution for women to exercise their natural biological advantage in reproductive and sexual selection. Reproductive choice by females helps to naturally regulate the population of the species.

        • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 5:57:23 PM

          "...we should just give the pro-lifers the fetuses at nine weeks and see if they can keep them alive without the mother's womb."

          Good point. I'll even supply the pacifiers.

  • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 4:14:06 PM

    Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Makes perfect sense.

    • Posted By: DaveDiana @ 08/26/2008 5:38:48 PM

      Did you actually have something to say about abortion or were you too busy amusing yourself? You show a profound lack of understanding of and respect for religion. If you have something intelligent to say, then say it. If all you can do is engage in sophistry then go back to watching Sponge Bob.

      • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 5:49:10 PM

        Good idea. Sponge Bob is a pillar of reason when compared to religion.

        • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 1:45:03 AM

          Sponge Bob. That's the level of the pro-choicers in this debate.

          Might even be a bit difficult for them.

    • Posted By: Young Hickory @ 08/26/2008 4:23:00 PM

      Truth to power. If someone told us they worship the tooth fairy as supreme being we would rightly disqualify them from the presidency yet somehow we make pledging allegiance to fairy tales all but a requirement to be President of the United States. This country was founded on enlightened rationalism. Somehow we have lost our way.

      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 4:26:53 PM

        True, none of our Founding Fathers were religious.

        And they regularly called Jesus a Jewish Zombie.

        • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 5:55:03 PM

          You are right on. A bunch of the Founding Fathers were Deists, not Christian. They are probably turning over in their grave at the way the country has been hijacked by a crazy religious fundamentalists.

          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 1:43:26 AM

            Yeah, sure, deists. Except for all of them that, you know, weren't.

            Wow, for the genius of the universe, you're just one long leftist cliche.

    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 4:15:37 PM

      This is the seriousness with which the left engages debate.

      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 4:19:10 PM

        Besides, come up with your own material.

        • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 4:25:45 PM

          This is relevant because it is what the conservative right is rooted in. You people are just insane. I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. Take from the church the miraculous, the supernatural, the incomprehensible, the unreasonable, the impossible, the unknowable, the absurd, and nothing but a vacuum remains. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

          A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.

          • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 5:06:15 PM

            Boy, you've memorized all the atheist cliches!

            Congrats!

            But I'm not going to get into a discussion about the existence of God with you. I'm not being paid to be your Sunday School teacher to beat back all your irreligious nonsense.

            • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 5:28:19 PM

              Well, instead of disputing them, you run and hide behind your blind faith BS. You're right, though, some of those are quotes I've heard over the years, but that doesn't take away from the fact the religion is natural selections greatest accomplishment. Blind faith... Ha!

              I've got to hand it to those sick SOBs that concocted this plague we know as organized religion. They knew that fear is a powerful weapon and they utilized it well to control the masses. I just wish I could see the expression on your face when you find out it's all a sham. C'est la Vie.

              • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 5:39:55 PM

                When have I ever run and hide behind anything. I have never once used the Bible to justify my arguments.

                I don;t need any book, let alone the Bible, to tell me that slaughtering living human beings is disgusting.

                Just admit it. You are morally base. You reject God because the belief in God would require you to change the way you see the world. But your rejection of God is not shared by 90 per cent of the country.

                • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 5:42:10 PM

                  So die heretic!!!

                  • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 5:45:31 PM

                    Yes, I was busy calling for the death of all atheists.

                    I'll get ot that when I'm done killing all the blacks.

                    You are too stupid to respond to anymore.

                    • Posted By: Esencia08 @ 08/27/2008 4:51:28 AM

                      My My Jim! I hope you dont trip on your robe when you attend the next white supremacist meeting at your local church.....lol

                      • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 1:41:41 AM

                        You're such an idiot you can't understand sarcasm. Several times the jus askin dope accused me of being a white supremacist, without any justification, and I was mocking him here.

                        Unless you think I'm really planning to kill every black person.

                        Because, you know, that's very possible sitting here at my brand new computer.

                    • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 5:57:12 PM

                      Luckily, we've forced the religious nuts into a more peaceful posture. They've figured out that they can do things in a more subtle way and appear to take the high ground. If the fundamentalists had their way in this country, they surely would be just as oppressive as their Muslim counterparts. Fundamentalist wackos are the same the world round.

                      • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 6:08:35 PM

                        You've just made their list!

                      • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 6:03:19 PM

                        Oh, man. Isn't that the truth...

                    • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 5:48:46 PM

                      Then don't.

                  • Posted By: mcleodmn @ 08/26/2008 5:51:43 PM

                    LOL! I guess I stand corrected.

            • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 5:26:26 PM

              That's right, if you are an atheist, you are NOT entitled to an opinion. We have a religious test here in the US, especially for political candidates (we're working on other professions). If you are an atheist, agnostic, skeptic, liberal Jew--well, you can't be elected to public office (without some voter fraud)--and certainly not elected POTUS. Fuggedaboutit.

              Oh yes, it's not in the Constitution, but who cares. It's the law of the land.

              And now back to our regularly scheduled beating by a Sunday School teacher. Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

              • Posted By: Johnsonium @ 08/26/2008 5:58:50 PM

                You just lie about your true beliefs. That's what a lot of people do. They are truly agnostic but go through the motions to avoid societal scorn. I'm sure this is the case with politicians too. Eventually, that scorn will go away and we can find our way to true enlightenment and leave the neo dark-ages of recent times behind.

    • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 08/26/2008 5:51:01 PM

      Ah,but if that doesn't,this does.

      The First Amendment To The Constitution of the United States:

      ''Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof''.

      Not as much flair you will agree,but it is a secular law all Americans are bound to respect nonetheless.

    • Posted By: Tacocat27 @ 08/26/2008 4:27:51 PM

      Cosmic Jewish Zombie sounds like an awesome name for a band!

  • Posted By: EE7011 @ 08/26/2008 3:24:34 PM

    It's a Wednesday afternoon in a social services office and a young woman calls looking for assistance. She is 20 and pregnant for the first time. You don't ask for details, she voluntarily tells you that she is uninsured, the father is not a part of the picture, and her parents are devout Catholics. You can hear the urgency and fear in her voice. In that moment you realize this isn't about being pro-life and pro-choice it is about this particular young woman, her situation and what you can do. I know our country would love for this issue to be cut and dry, but it just isn't, it really isn't.

    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 3:49:44 PM

      Fear of what?

      A twenty year old woman living with the consequences of her actions?

      Her fear is no excuse to murder her baby.

      Cut and dried.

      • Posted By: Tacocat27 @ 08/26/2008 4:24:03 PM

        So easy for you to say eh? Considering you are nowhere near/nor ever could fully understand her situation it isn't in fact "cut and dried" And from your name I'll assume your male as well which makes you even further from being able to put yourself in her shoes. 20 years old does not a responsible adult make. Do I condone her actions? Certainly not, but I agree with EE7011, this subject will never be as simple as black and white, each individuals circumstance are too different to ever make it so. So until the day you physically are facing the terror of an unwanted pregnancy, please don't assume to know what others are going through

        • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 4:30:09 PM

          When does a person become a responsible adult?

          30?

          40?

          80?

          Oh, right, I'm talking to a liberal.

          Never.

          • Posted By: Tacocat27 @ 08/26/2008 4:36:23 PM

            ah yes, because by replying with petty name-calling you are showing what a "big boy" you are. Kudos. My political views have nothing to do with the ability to put myself in someone else's shoes. If you'll kindly re-read my post you'll notice I said I did not condone her actions, merely that I didn't think this issue was as cut and dried as you were making it out to be. With abortion there is no typical scenario, thus it can't be handled as a basic right or wrong, it needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

            On a side note, there is no set age that magically makes you an adult, I've met 40 year olds that act like children and 15 year olds who are wise beyond their years.

            • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 5:09:42 PM

              "Considering you are nowhere near/nor ever could fully understand her situation it isn't in fact "cut and dried" And from your name I'll assume your male as well which makes you even further from being able to put yourself in her shoes. "

              " My political views have nothing to do with the ability to put myself in someone else's shoes. "

              That has to be a world record for contradicting oneself.

              • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 5:28:36 PM

                No you've won the gold in that event. Congrats.

                • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 5:33:22 PM

                  Garbage. Show us where...

                  • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 5:43:53 PM

                    You're pro-life except when you're pro-death. Life for some, death for others.

                    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/29/2008 1:38:52 AM

                      Where have I ever been "for" death for anyone?

                      You;re reaching because you're losing. Badly.

          • Posted By: just_askin @ 08/26/2008 4:39:37 PM

            Guffaw, guffaw. Oh stop, your killing us.

      • Posted By: Esencia08 @ 08/27/2008 5:05:57 AM

        Let me tell you something jim as a man and a racist one who said in a couple of posts above that he would love to kill all blacks you are in no position to moralize or determine what any woman decides to do with her body. Its too bad that you were brainwashed with alot of false religious doctrines and have never taken the time to actually study and analyze these biblical narratives in the context of history and culture, but dont piss me off with your dubious morality, intolerance and hate talk or I will commence to lower the rod of correction on your backside!

    • Posted By: JimKetzle @ 08/26/2008 3:50:49 PM

      Oh, and I do imagine her devout Catholic parents would see to the up bringing of their grandchild.

      That's what devout Catholics do.

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