Sorry, Pal, You're Rich

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  • Posted By: If you have to ask...you cannot afford it!!! @ 08/28/2008 1:56:43 PM

    As a rich person, I am truly offended. I know for a fact, that $250,000 is not rich and does not buy much. One could not even purchase a decent yacht with that paultry sum. If ever someone needed to get a clue, it is those that chastise the middle class. These are the hard working people that help pay most of your taxes. I should know because I only pay around 3% a year in income taxes. Being wealthy, I can shelter my accounts in places like Monaco, Lichtenstein and the British Virgin Islands. The money I save in the US is not taxed at all because it is in a family trust or in tax free municiple bonds. But I digress. The issue is about more taxes and more social programs. Historically, they have been the downfall of all great civilizations. For those that follow this idea, you will be one of the downfalls to this great society. I hope all those who read this will educate themselves on how a Republic should be run. In conclusion, work hard because I will not. My drink is getting warm in this hot tropical sun. By the way, $250,000 is a very bad week.

    • Posted By: Commentator2 @ 08/28/2008 4:51:44 PM

      The great civilizations are those who have built enduring infrastructures; for example the Egyptian pyramids and the Roman aquaducts. The American empire will not survive a population that is unwilling to pay for building and maintaining its infrastructure! So the issue is not about increasing taxes for increased social programs; the issue is the need to increase taxes to generate the intellectual expertise and maintain a healthy workforce to continue to build what is necessary to face the challenges of the future and maintain while maintaining what we currently have in this country! Asking that those who earn more pay more is not aboput stealing from them. No; it is about people paying for what they use. After all, the more you earn the more you are likely you are to use airplanes; have vehicles traveling the roads carrying you, your family, your emplyoyees and or your goods; use the ports to dock your leisure boats or unload or ship goods; or use the internet. Umm, let me see who directs air traffic, who built and maintains the airports, the roads and the nations ports, who developed the internet? Who comes to put out the fire if your property(s) catches fire; who comes to your aid if you get in to trouble skiing, mountain climbing and all the other leisure activities you are able to afford more than others; who is your advocate and priotector if you are traveling overseas or are conducting business overseas? Jesus, christ! Can't you see that those who earn more use our government more so you have to pay more. Can' t you see that if the country allows tax rates to continue to fall, as they have during the Reagan Economics era (including Bush), we will soon not have a country? I suppose that is not a problem for the higher income individuals; they can can just go to some godforsaken place where the tax rate is more to their liking and tre they can hire their own private army and everthing else they get in this country that they resent paying for now.

    • Posted By: kamn9730 @ 08/28/2008 2:13:41 PM

      AND IF YOU GET AUDITTED THEN WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY I DIDNT KNOW I WAS SUPPOSED TO PAY TAXES ON THAT .

    • Posted By: sjm6202 @ 08/28/2008 2:05:27 PM

      That's great. You sir brought a smile to my day!!!! Nothing wrong with boasting about your accomplishments

  • Posted By: notunderage @ 08/28/2008 4:28:56 PM

    I live in a poor town (Spokane, WA) have a J.D., used to practice law (I voluntarily resigned for no other reason than I hated family law) and make less than $30,000.00 a year as a paralegal. I have two adult children whom I no longer support, and own my own home. I know quite well that I make less than what most "middle class" singles or families earn, but I would dare to say that, having been raised in Marin County, CA that $250,000.00 annua income there is "upper" middle class. This is the problem with "average" income -- for everyone who earns more than $80,000 - $100,000 per year, there are other singles and families earning well below $30,000.00 and not getting any of the tax credits, childcare or daycare credits, school vouchers or after-school programs, don't qualify for food stamps or Medicaid, can't afford health insurance, and shop at that ripoff giant Walmart in order to make ends meet. If this mess doesn't need change (and I mean Obama change) I don't know what does.

    • Posted By: texjuanon @ 08/28/2008 4:51:38 PM

      You've found a kindred spirit! I, too, am a former lawyer who grew up in the Bay Area (Walnut Creek), and resigned. I discerned a spiritual calling and left D.C. to attend seminary with the goal of becoming a chaplain. At 49 and now divorced from my salaried spouse, with two older children to support, I am trying to get a job in Waco, Texas, and even $10 per hour looks pretty good to me under the circumstances.

    • Posted By: yorkielover2 @ 08/28/2008 4:41:09 PM

      BRAVO! underage....I understand what your saying and I'm in the same boat as you.

  • Posted By: Tac Man @ 08/28/2008 4:51:10 PM

    Dan, some of the richest people in the states are earning well under the $250K threshold but most who are not subscribers to hand outs tend to seek that goal and are incentivized to do so. But a system that seeks to tax the rich to spread wealth has that smell of socialism. I think that a flat tax is the only way to work the issue without taking the initiative out of being an American worker.

  • Posted By: ventivent @ 08/28/2008 4:51:02 PM

    It's difficult to determine how the author arrived at this conclusion without knowing where the author is coming from. Mr. Gross, what is your annual salary, and what are your main expenses? What region of the US do you live in, and if your household income is above the $250,000 mark, do you consider yourself rich?

  • Posted By: opsmgr2008 @ 08/28/2008 4:50:22 PM

    I don't make $250,000 a year but if I do in the future I would have earned it. Who is to say that because I have busted my hump to get to the point that I can finally make that amount that I should have to pay a greater portion of it to the government,? Especially since I wouldn't require any government services or benefits in return. I think that everybody should pay their fair share but we should not punish somebody because they earn that much through hard work just as we should reward people who don't. We live in a country in which everybody has the opportunity and freedom to better their own lives and there are government programs to facilitate that. I am willing to pay something additional if it helps people to take the steps necessary to better themselves but not simply for wealth redistribution. I would ask that the Congress limit wasteful spending before they take another dime out of any of our pockets!

  • Posted By: Doc Blue @ 08/28/2008 1:43:08 PM

    I think some of you have it wrong. From what I hear the DEMS want to role back the Bush tax cuts for individuals making over 250K to what they were during the Clinto days. Spouting that the Dems will raise taxes is untrue. Last I remember, most people did pretty well during the Clinto years. The first thing most want to do is curb spending by cutting food programs to kids in pre-K, when they should be curbing spending on this ridiculus war we are fighting in Iraq. This from a well educated veteran who certainly understands world politics and National Security issues.

    • Posted By: jgardnerdo @ 08/28/2008 1:54:11 PM

      Something interesting for you to think of... in 2000 when Obama wanted to go to the DNC in LA, he couldn't afford to get a car to make it. This was during the Clinton years that he struggled. Now, he has a 1.5M house and is a senator under Bush's time in office... hmmm. This begs the question, what possibly could anyone say about Bush's plan when Obama took advantage of it and is now your economic savior. By the way, when was the last time that anyone in the forum wrote a check to pay down the national debt that everyone is so worried about??? Didn't think that you had. So, stop trying to make this into an issue and start realizing that you are trying to "legally" steal people's money.

      • Posted By: elwjohn @ 08/28/2008 4:49:18 PM

        Are you kidding me??? Obama has been successful a LOT longer than 8 years. Think about what you are saying, before you say it.

  • Posted By: jgwoods9457 @ 08/28/2008 4:48:33 PM

    I am from a family has a household income level a little over $250,000. I do not take issues with any of the statements or the conclusions in the article from Mr. Gross. I only want to know what the tax cuts are that have been instituted by the Bush administration that have helped me? My taxes are prepared by a experioenced tax accountant and as far as I can tell there have been no cuts or increased deducations that have helped me. In fact, the ATM or Alternative Tax Method that was implemented, cancels out most of the standard deductions that I would normally be able to beneift from - children, mortgage interest and property taxes. I am really only complaining that $250,000 does not put us in a category where we have benefited from the policies for the rich that the Bush adminstration has implemented.

  • Posted By: emba @ 08/28/2008 4:39:30 PM

    I don't understand people's whining on this board! If you earn a salary in the top percentage of Americans, then you qualify as being wealthy. You've worked hard and (in most cases) deserve to earn that high wage. But, don't complain about not being able to afford things! That is truly a choice. Don't live in Boston or NYC - move to the suburbs! Don't purchase an expensive new car - continue to drive your older one for a few more years! Accept that just as your choices have brought you the high wage you earn, it is also your choices that control how much of your salary you spend on a monthly basis and how much you save. Don't whine and say you aren't rich because you CHOOSE to live in an expensive home, drive a new car, purchase brand name clothing! Ridiculous!

    • Posted By: manfernandez @ 08/28/2008 4:46:18 PM

      Not so much how much is spent, I think the issues is that regardless how people making 250 or higher spend or don't spend there money, it hurts to have others say that we should pay more for people that have not made efforts to move ahead or take the plunge. I do not want to continue to pay for people's healthcare, fod stamps, section 8 housing, while they drive better cars than me. There is so much fraus in the welfare system that if they fixed that, we could fund the REAL neneedy people

  • Posted By: dumbluck @ 08/28/2008 1:59:10 PM

    Sorry pal - when you're making in the top 2 percentile of median household income and your expenses are running away, then YOU are doing something wrong. Try living that way on $75K or even $100K and THEN you'll know what it's like being middle class. Telling the kids to wear those pants for just one more year, or eating chicken or pasta every night. Its a pathetic state when the GAO reports 2/3 or corporations in the US paid no taxes last year (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1249465620080812) something needs to be done to level the paying field.

    • Posted By: adamwells @ 08/28/2008 2:03:33 PM

      Here in the real world (as apposed to Obama's liberal utopia) capitalism is all about incentive...period. Removing the incentive for someone to grow their income from 150k to 300k leads us down a very scary slippery slope that erodes personal liberty, reduces government revenue, and increases unemployment. The fact is that this country was founded on principles of smaller government and personal liberty. It was not founded on the Marxist belief of "from each according to their ability. To each according to their need". If this is your belief, than just be honest with yourself and the rest of us and declare that you believe in Marxist theory. Don't waste our time with an emotion based, psuedo-intellectual argument that feels nice but has no benefit in the real world.

      • Posted By: rangerone314 @ 08/28/2008 2:47:45 PM

        Incentive can be a double-edged sword... Seems like ENRON had a lot of incentive to do what they did. Look at their lack of ethics -- look at them now.

        How about Ford, GM and Chrystler making SUVs? Now look at them, HAHAHAH!

        How about the rich farmers & agricorps who get subsidies (incentives) NOT to grow food?

        It was the power of "Anglo-Iranian Oil - now known as BP - that lead to the US overthowing a democratically-elected government of Iran in 1953, and paved the way for the wonderful theocratic government of Iran today that we all know and love.

        This country needs more middle class people and less rich people. Toss out the Ray Tillersons and the Ken Lays and the Paris Hiltons, and their peers, and also toss out the illegal immigrants doing the landscaping for them and tending the restaurants they patronize & maybe this country might shape up. Rich people importing and patronizing illegal immigrant workers help depress wages in this country.

        Rich and near-rich people driving up demand for petroleum makes middle class people have to struggle more to pay for gas and food.

        In "Kelo_v._City_of_New_London" eminent domain case a couple years ago, the US Supreme Court held that a government can take away a homeowner's property and give it to a corporation to develop.

        I love incentives, how about you?

        • Posted By: HenryKrinkle @ 08/28/2008 4:44:53 PM

          Your post makes very little sense. What does Paris Hilton and "Incentive" have anything to do with one another?...This will probably be the only time in written history where the two terms collide.

          In case you missed it, the point of the original argument is ...If I am penalized.(aka taxed more percentage wise) for succeeding (aka making more money) then, why should I try harder? I have lost incentive to work harder because I am not properly rewarded for my efforts.

        • Posted By: adamwells @ 08/28/2008 3:16:08 PM

          Ken Lay went down because HE BROKE THE LAW! That is why we have laws. So that hard working, honest people can get rich by doing the right things!

          Throw out the rich along with the illegal aliens? Well, that is a brilliant comparison. Your totalitarian tone sounds a little Stalinist to me.

      • Posted By: saluki @ 08/28/2008 2:09:22 PM

        Wasting YOUR (not our) time.

        And while we're on the subject - can I have the minute back I just wasted reading your canned republican response?

        • Posted By: adamwells @ 08/28/2008 2:19:32 PM

          I rest my case. Typical liberal. It's like argueing with a 3 year old. You are great at name calling, but can't debate substance. Do yourself a favor and read the Declaration of Independance someday. It might do you some good.

          • Posted By: saluki @ 08/28/2008 3:17:24 PM

            dammit.

            Wasted another 30 seconds.

            Knock it off already. I've read your crap 1000 times. Come up with something new.

            • Posted By: adamwells @ 08/28/2008 3:21:17 PM

              Another substantive argument. Why do you read so slow?

  • Posted By: fuelcellfuelcell @ 08/28/2008 4:43:45 PM

    My economic goal is to pay the government over $1million dollars in taxes. I want to complain, vote republican, talk about free trade and know how to order in Starbucks. I want to be able to spur the economy by going on a shopping spree.

  • Posted By: fabromsil @ 08/28/2008 4:25:59 PM

    Who is being denied chances? I'm a Mexican immigrant, who came to this country in 1974 at the age of 4, with parents that had to work blue-collar jobs to support five kids. Today, I make over $250k a year, as an attorney. I saw nothing but chances while in high school, college and law school. This country is full of these amazing opportunities to make a career conducive to reaching some level of financial security. So, again, who is being denied chances? Failing to recognize so many opportunities is a unique case indeed.

    • Posted By: fingerpointing @ 08/28/2008 4:42:29 PM

      Nice Response.. Let???s tax her for making her way to success. C???mon Democrats, go after her. What a joke!!! 250K is not rich. Rich comes from knowing how to spend your money. Rich comes from seeing opportunity and working hard to get where you want to be. It doesn???t come from finger pointing and blaming the world for your own problems.

  • Posted By: markstev @ 08/28/2008 4:42:15 PM

    swmn99 - I could not afford my monthly expenses which are over $800k a year on $250k which is why I said I would die. I did not ask nor think I would ever achieve this success. I will tell you my success came with a lot of sacrifice. my family could not afford my education so I explored alternative avenues such as work programs etc. to attend the schools I went to, along with good grades of course. i had and have discipline, dedication and desire. nothing was ever handed to me, when I was struggling in college and after college for a short while financially, I never accepted a hand out. my success didn't come easy. I explain this to my children everytime I feel or think they are taking something for granted. we all born different, we are all born into different circumstances. i will say that i worked hard for everything I have, I still remember where I came from and never act or pretend to think I am better than anyone else. if one wants to make more, you have to think of how you can realistically achieve it, no one is going to give it to you just because. set goals for yourself, write them down on paper, and work towards achieving them. my success came through luck, timing, my education, and my persistance--it wasn't handed to me. I can't think to live on $250k a year and to be honest that does make me sick--at the sametime I don't regret the fact that I have been able to bring in a 7 figure salary for the past 5 years. my intention was to shine light on my experience so that the view or opinion on those that make $250k or more was not all cynical. In my opinion no government or change they make will help those that are poor, middle class, or rich, because at the end of the day it is about the job you have, and the money you make. unfortunately what you will save, or get back will not be enough. it is like having 20k in debt, then getting a 1k hand out from a friend, is that 1k really going to help the debt situation? In my experience in helping friends, that 1k handout only enables more frivolous spending.

  • Posted By: RangerDan @ 08/28/2008 2:35:34 PM

    Being rich is not a hard number. It is how you are doing relative to other people in your society. I know people who have to live on three pakages of ramen noodles a day. If the rich can't spare a few extra tax dollars a day to help alleviate that, then they have sealed their own fate. Remember what happened to Marie Antoinette? "Let them eat cake"

    • Posted By: ahawkeye1 @ 08/28/2008 2:58:15 PM

      I bet the people who have to eat noodles 3x a day would love to turn back time and make different decisions about their lives. If people haven't figured out by now that the decisions they make today can affect their lives in the future, then giving them tax money isn't going to change anything.

      • Posted By: RangerDan @ 08/28/2008 3:14:18 PM

        Just remember that the compassionless soul has no place in heaven. Whatever your heaven is.

        • Posted By: ahawkeye1 @ 08/28/2008 4:41:38 PM

          And you're the judge of that are you?

  • Posted By: ragtopdodge @ 08/28/2008 11:47:55 AM

    Damn, I wish I made $250k/year.

    If making $249k/year is considered middle class, I'd like to see the home you live in.

    So Obama wants to raise taxes on those making >$250k/year so we can actually pay for stuff, like the war.

    What's wrong w/that?

    Where the hell is the sacrifice? Young men/women who make $25k/year gets their limbs blown off or dead, yet those making decent money don't want to pay for those young men/women's military salaries and/or education?

    Greedy a-holes.

    • Posted By: jblackwell88 @ 08/28/2008 11:52:56 AM

      Is it greed to want to keep what you earn, or greed when you want to take what others earn?

      • Posted By: Abbs @ 08/28/2008 4:41:20 PM

        Sacrifice has to be made. If it is not, you CANNOT ask for it.

      • Posted By: stematwork @ 08/28/2008 12:14:19 PM

        jblack, you're my new hero.

  • Posted By: xsighter @ 08/28/2008 4:38:39 PM

    How have some many of you missed the point??? Even in the wealthiest areas 250k is above average! You're NOT poor. If you can't afford your lifestyle, you need to make different choices. Take some ownership of your situation.

  • Posted By: manfernandez @ 08/28/2008 4:23:33 PM

    swmn99, why is it that we cannot save our money for later on in life? I am putting my money away for a rainy day. I do not make 250k but would like to. This is something I know I have to work and sacrifice. How much am I willing to give up to make the money:

    Penelope Trunk, a newspaper columnist in Virginia, commented: ???If you???re poor and you abandon your kids, you???re a bad parent. But if you???re rich and abandon them to run a company, you???re profiled in Fortune magazine.???

    Penelope is right on. Abandonment is abandonment and there should not be a double-standard. As All Pro Dads, let???s send the right message that men who are truly rich have their most important investment ??? their time ??? allocated as much to their family as possible.

    • Posted By: swmn99 @ 08/28/2008 4:37:11 PM

      I do put money away for a rainy day....I don't recall saying you can't. I applauded the post of Penelope. What I wouldn't give to be able to spend more than a few hours a day with my son and still make ends meet.

  • Posted By: manfernandez @ 08/28/2008 4:34:01 PM

    I have posted already that I do not make 250k. I also said the Bill Gates owns the entire top floor of the Ritz in Grand Cayman. Would I like to have that? Yes, do I fell that he should peel off 1200 Square feet for me because I do not have that? You work hard, you get lucky, you make much money or you don't. Make what you can and NEVER stop trying. That is what I have done. I am not rich. If I could live 6 months in Cayman and not have to work, that is rich to me.

  • Posted By: revolution30 @ 08/28/2008 3:21:45 PM

    For those of you in this discussion that think that $250,000 is rich and these people desirve to be taxed more because of their way of living-think about this. Some of you have mentioned that you make $30,000 a year. To some that is "rich"! What if the people making $10,000 a year started saying that you live better then them. You live in better neighborhoods, drive better cars, and wear nicer clothes and they think you should be taxed more. How would that make you feel? You would walk around at that moment mad because you have work hard to get that $30,000 a year and you'll be damed if someone is going to make you feel guilty about it and want you to pay more taxes from it. Not fair is it? What some of you sound like you are saying is it doesn't pay to be financially comfortable in the United States. We should all give up trying to better ourselves and our families and remain"poor" so noone will envy us. We want everything to be equal and fair. WAKE UP!!! We are not children anymore and this life is not fair or eqaul. You get what you make out of life. Stop being mad that other people are better off than you. Instead look at what you can do to make YOUR life better! One guy in here said that these people ($250K) choose to go to expensive collage and get a good paying job and that it was their own fault. What kind of stupid crap is that? Many of these people in this income bracket are small business owners. These people are helping there local economy by suppling job opportunities. Not only that but they do have the extra money to spend in the market, that helps the economy. What seems to be the big problem here?

    • Posted By: GoBoilers @ 08/28/2008 3:29:34 PM

      It is not bad that people choose to spend their money on expensive schools, cars, or houses. It is BAD when they whine about their resulting debts and claim that $250k is not "rich" because now they have bills. They made consumption decisions.

      You correctly point out that everyone will find someone else who is wealthier. Rather than let envy and jealousy drive their feelings, they should find happiness in what they have and work towards a better future. Trying to expropriate the wealth of others for their own gain is irresponsible and pathetic... but the "poor" person making $250k can afford to pay a little more in taxes to promote the greater good (obviously the McDonalds worker making minimum wage can contribute as much to support the public good - e.g. parks, police, fire fighters, etc - as a "poor" person making $250k)

      http://www.beyondthemargin.net/2008/08/escaping-burdens-of-consumer-debt.html

      • Posted By: revolution30 @ 08/28/2008 4:31:21 PM

        That's stupid GoBoilers.
        "They made consumption decisions."?? They choose to make a better life so they could have these "consumption decisions" and that's their fault? Because they can have these extras they work hard for they should have to pay for it?
        The "greater good" you say. Who is the "greater good"? Those that can't or won't do anything to excel in life? Most of the $250k started at nothing and worked their way up at no expense to others. They did it through determination and hard work. How is that wrong?
        For you, would it be better for the McDonald's worker who makes $95,630Yr. to pay 5% in taxes leaving a good $90,848.50 while the guy who makes $250,000 pays 25% leaving him $187,000. Or is that still not enough. Because he would still make enough to have those "consumption decisions" that the McDonald's worker couldn't have. So maybe we should tax him at 63.65% leaving him with $90,875-would that be more fair for you?

    • Posted By: manfernandez @ 08/28/2008 3:29:14 PM

      When every thing is equal (pay, property etc) this is communism. In Cuba my father was considered rich. His father had theaters and had busted his rump. My father had to flee Cuba because the government took his land and redistributed it to all. In Venzuela, Hugo, took over the Concrete companies from Mexico & Greek Business owners. Be careful what you wish for.

  • Posted By: dcweb @ 08/28/2008 2:54:51 PM

    You're obviously living in a fantasy world if you feel $250,000 is rich! I live in the Washington DC area and my family of four barely makes it on $250,000. Daycare for 2 children alone is $30,000 and my family doesn't qualify for the measly $3,000 tax credit on that. Give me a break -- we are not rich, we are very frugal (my husband's car is over 10 years old) and we still have a hard time saving a dime for retirement or college.

    • Posted By: xsighter @ 08/28/2008 4:29:53 PM

      Obviously you have what you have chosen. That's life: choices. How do so many others in your area get by on significantly less? Think about it. You are not on the bottom rung where you live.

    • Posted By: spjon @ 08/28/2008 3:11:39 PM

      Even in the DC area $250,000 is plenty even with your kids. There are more than decent and decently priced places in areas like Arlington, Alexandria, Vienna, Fairfax that will only take you 20 minutes away from work (I'm assuming you're working in DC and even if you're not it's barely a difference in pay...sorry, I don't know much about the Maryland side). Like I was saying. You still make plenty of money. Most of my family lives in that area and are at or near the same situation and they never complain about money.

  • Posted By: manfernandez @ 08/28/2008 4:29:24 PM

    Nice Fabrimsil. Congrats.

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