Russia’s Nervous Neighbors

« Return to Article

Discuss

Member Comments

  • Posted By: bthumber @ 09/07/2008 8:14:53 AM

    Why should we pay good American money to rebuild Georgia's military and start a war with the eastern side of the world...why? Georgia started this fight and got their a%^es kicked and we are suppose to come come up the mess. I would not even send humanitarian aid, because those dumb leaders would do it again and draw us into a war. They can't beat Russia and they want us to do it for them. Russia's Navy is having port call's in South America, Russia and China have a Defense agreement. Do think we can beat up on Russia like we did little Iraq. Is Georgia worth the 1000's and 1000's of youth American live, is that all the military is for...are we trying to rule the world?

    • Posted By: Braes @ 09/07/2008 12:30:29 PM

      Add also India, to the Russian roster. Say India made a play for the British Indian Ocean Territory (Diego Garcia) in order to remove the United States Strategic bomber base there. (We use this to strike targets throughout the Mid East to Asia)
      This would be no Faulklands campaign, as India has already defeated Britain for it's independence, and has a substantial 5th column presence in Britain with passports.
      The amount of potential "Hot" to a neo-Coldwar is breathtakingly scary. The Indian Air force can strike Diego with current assets. They don't have to occupy it, they can reduce it below the surf in a few hours. (Or one nuke, of which they have a few, unlike Argentina... or Iraq...)
      Speaking to the world from the mindset of "no options are off the table" will eventually result in the rest of the world developing the capacity to speak to you the same.

      • Posted By: Iconoblaster @ 09/08/2008 5:50:54 PM

        Silliness. India is not about to attack the United States OR Britain...not over Diego Garcia, certainly, which is amply defended. As for NUKING Diego Garcia, that is absurd. India doesn't have an ICBM fleet to threaten Britain or the continental United States, but both the UK and US DO have such arsenals; in some lunatic world where India did such a thing, it would be a century before anyone could again survive in the smoking hole where India previously was. All that said, I tend to agree with Braes that this idiot Bush regime and its implicit military threats (ie, "no options are off the table") will eventually bring us lots of grief . In fact, it already has. If we REALLY don't want Iran to develop nuclear weapons, threatening to use military force on them is exactly the wrong approach.

        • Posted By: Braes @ 09/08/2008 11:38:46 PM

          Note the opening... say.. as in real big stretch, but Russia using a puppet, as we do. Mutually assured Destruction isn't so assured anymore.

    • Posted By: Doobydoo49 @ 09/07/2008 12:32:55 PM

      I agree with bthumber. In stead of spending billions on propping up countries that waste the money away how about we use the money to develop a highly trained professional military instead of forcing National Guard units and Reservists to give years of their lives to poorly thought out and executed wars.
      How about we start using our heads and quit supporting every conflict that benefits our economic needs while we avoid international disasters that have no economic impact on us. What do you say we pick 5 countries to support and then we ask the UN to handle the rest. Has anyone taken a survey lately how many service men & women we have stationed through out the world and how many conflicts or diplomatic flashpoints we are trying to cover? Consider how many the Chinese & Russians have and you can see the reason for our slow demise. Let's get it together and invest in our own country before we are so overspent that we are totally ineffective (as we were in Georgia). We may not like the Russians or Chinese but they outplay us 90% of the time (Maybe I'm confusing that stat with how much McMaverick voted with Bush). My final comment is that I really hope the country realizes what dangers that hot head and his new stoolie pose to the world. I'm an unemployed Republican with years of skills and experience that aren't worth a d*mn in today's economy. My investments have declined 30% over the past three years and I haven't seen squat from the administration except for $1200 that went to pay monthly bills. I'm going for Obama/Biden because I think he's three times as intelligent as any one of the current admin yokels and he will prove to be a Grandmaster at chess on the world stage.

      • Posted By: Don't Tread on Me @ 09/08/2008 3:49:30 AM

        But Obama's foreign policy is essentially the same as McCain's, just as interventionist if not as hot-headed. And I like Joe Biden as a person quite a bit, but he helped illegally 'delegate' the power to Bush to start an undeclared war with Iraq, and we know how that worked out. Biden is supposed to be Obama's foreign policy guru (along with Madeleine Albright, a hawk if there ever was one), so he's no better than what we've had. Vote against all of them and demand a return to Constitutional government.

        • Posted By: Iconoblaster @ 09/08/2008 6:07:51 PM

          Maybe not. Obama is vulnerable (if at all) from the political "Right". His campaign rhetoric reflects his electoral situation, and may not accurately depict his views (as is usual with politicians running for office) so much as what he thinks must be said for him to get elected. The practical reality is that, in this election, we CAN'T "vote against all of them": either McCain or Obama will be elected. While I agree with all or most of the assertions Don'tTread makes here, I hope and believe there is a difference between Obama and McCain... even though I'm a Republican, I will be voting for Obama, simply because I think we will never return to traditional American values, including respect for the Constitution, if the electorate doesn't first, and soundly, repudiate Bushism.

      • Posted By: 4carol @ 09/08/2008 11:38:13 AM

        Thanks, Dooby; your comments are possibly the most truthful on this web so far.
        If we just would learn to keep our nose out of everyone else's business, we'd be a helluva lot better off all around.
        The idea is exactly what Joe Biden said 09/07/08 on Meet the Press about abortion. Just because I may think or believe a certain way, does not mean I must force everyone else to think the same way!!!!

  • Posted By: swampi @ 09/07/2008 9:22:27 AM

    Why in the world does the US support a fake democracy like Georgia? The Georgian Mafia has terrorized Moscow for years. Georgia is the birthplace of Stalin where he is still considered a hero. It is the diplomatic and strategic blunder of the century for the US and it will backfire on them. The present policy is setting the stage for Russian bases in Cuba and Venezuela. As usual the US policy is for the wrong side.

    • Posted By: Markov1918 @ 09/08/2008 4:54:23 PM

      We've done ok with our foreign policy since 1945. Your comment about "fake Georgian democracy" demonstrates your fake intellect. What do a bunch of criminals of Georgian descent in Moscow have to do with the democratically elected Georgian gov't? It's like saying that Italy is a fake democracy because their mafia has been terrorizing NY and NJ. Rather dumb.

      • Posted By: swampi @ 09/08/2008 6:16:16 PM

        You need to know a little more about world affairs before attacking people you don't know. Georgia has been a corrupt state for years. in 2006 after a series of special measures aimed to deport illegal Georgian emigrants from Russia, to close big casinos and restaurants supposedly controlled by the Georgian mafia and to cleanse ???ethnically polluted??? markets, Russian special services are taking a step further.Law enforcement organizations started dealing with banks that supposedly laundered money in Russia to fund the unfriendly regime of Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili. This is not even mentioning the numerous bombings and kidnappings in Russia by Georgians, And what are you bringing Italy into this for? You need to study the world more.

        • Posted By: Markov1918 @ 09/08/2008 9:25:46 PM

          By using the Italian mafia as an example I was showing a fallacy in your thought process. For your information, Georgia s deemed to have the least corrupt gov't and investor advisories rate the country among the safest to invest in with confidence from the former Soviet bloc. Also, unfortunately, at this point Russia has no independent media so trusting a russian report on banks laundering money to fund Saakashvili's gov't is naive at best. Also by calmly suggesting that Russia is (and should be?) "cleansing" "ethnically polluted" markets of Georgians is rather disturbing. A connection between Saakashvili's gov't and ethnically Georgian organized crime will only be believed if it's coming from an independent, credible source. Until then Georgian organized crime in Russia has as much to do with Georgian gov't as Italian mafia in US has to do with the Italian gov't.

    • Posted By: Braes @ 09/07/2008 9:37:52 AM

      The United States foreign policy is regime change, coercive force, creative destruction, and pre-emptive war. To change that you need to change regimes here in November.

  • Posted By: Cates @ 09/08/2008 6:39:01 PM

    So who do you trust more, GW Bush or Puttie Pute ... tough question to answer.

  • Posted By: Don't Tread on Me @ 09/07/2008 12:08:36 AM

    OK, let me get this straight. We went into Georgia to help their "ragtag Army" to be a better fighting force and overlooked teaching them tactics concerning "tanks, artillery and helicopters"? Since WWII the basic ground warfare doctrine has centered around blitzkrieg and envelopment, which means the use of highly mobile forces bearing awesome firepower; since the 14th century indirect fire has been central to western warfare; and since the Korean war the tactical use of combined arms to deliver teams quickly and unexpectedly has been central to all major tactical operations, and is ESPECIALLY suited to counter-terrorist/-insurgency missions. How could we, then, have simply failed to mention any of these "conventional" tactics in our training of Georgian troops? This is absolute bull. What we're concerned with over there is getting people on our side who will fight our so-called "War on Terror" for us cheaper than will all those mercenary companies we've made into Fortune 500 successes. Besides that, we're concerned with three things: 1) there's an election coming up and those pansy-assed Washington chickenhawks (from both parties) have to look tough; 2) shoveling money into the hands of our out-of-control military industry in the guise of "equipping" foreign powers to protect themselves (from threats we won't deem necessary to tell them about); 3) to protect our precious "national interest" in Georgia's oil reserves. What a crock. Americans wake up! Vote against all these idiots who play Monopoly with the world, wagering the lives of our soldiers and entire people groups in order to have the most money at the end of the game. Enough! Back to Constitutional government! Obama won't save you! McCain will send you to die. Join the New Revolution, the Campaign for Liberty, and let our country once again belong to "We the People".

    • Posted By: Braes @ 09/07/2008 11:41:10 AM

      Sir, I hear a traditional paleo-conservative mindset. I concurr.
      I will however choose the lesser of two evils and hope for change. Given a global schism that can lead to conflagration as a result of a McCain/Palin Administration, I have to vote against them.
      I love their children, and the rest of the world's children, more than they do.

      • Posted By: Don't Tread on Me @ 09/08/2008 3:32:39 AM

        Braes, I can tell you're an intelligent person. If you want REAL hope for REAL change then demand a return to Constitutional government, not simply the "lesser of two evils". Unfortunately, both McCain and Obama have nearly identical interventionist foreign policies, and both are willing to start a (undeclared, and hence illegal under the Constitution) war with Iran to protect our "interests". I understand you may see a vote for a Libertarian, a Green, a Constituionalist or other such party, or a write-in vote for Ron Paul, as a 'waste' of your vote, but it is not - a vote is a citizen's voice, and if the 1.2 million people who voted in the Republican primaries for sound Constitutional principles by voting for Ron Paul would all write in Dr. Paul's name on their ballots in November, those voices would become a shout. Besides, acting on principle and voting your heart and conscience is never a bad thing to do. "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -- John Quincy Adams

        • Posted By: TheRealDealer @ 09/08/2008 5:51:34 PM

          I am a Libertarian, but could never support Ron Paul since he sold out to the Scientologists. They already send spies into government agencies, imagine if their puppet was running the government. No thanks.

  • Posted By: Iconoblaster @ 09/08/2008 5:36:42 PM

    If NATO's deterrent value is to be preserved, NATO will have to develop a spine and sharpen its teeth. Putin has shown his true colors....and he picked his time and his battle pretty well, it seems, in a place where we can't easily project force, but Russia can, and at a time when (thanks to our own Neocons) we are already overcommitted, and bogged down in wars we either didn't have to fight at all (Iraq) or where we stayed after the real mission had been accomplished (Afghanistan...once the Taliban was out of power, and al Qaeda on the run, we could have and should have pulled our military forces out, and let the Afghans hash things out on their own. Even a resurgence of the Taliban, if it happened, didn't need to be OUR problem... the Taliban were not even our primary enemy; they were merely in the way (for reasons that had more to do with traditions of the region than any ideological considerations) of us taking down our own enemy.

  • Posted By: lilbro1956 @ 09/07/2008 1:32:52 AM

    No ! There is no way we are responsible for their situation. It is about time the US stops sending our money to every other country that has issues, or wines they are needy. We have MANY issues here is the US, homes being lost due to scams, unemployment, homeless families, children going hungry and needing medical treatment, seniors going hungry, to name a few. The US needs to man up and start taking care of the AMERICAN BORN citizens !!! RJ - Washington St.

    • Posted By: Markov1918 @ 09/08/2008 3:52:00 PM

      So American citizens born elsewhere need not be taken care of, correct? You are one of the things that is wrong with our country.

  • Posted By: mediabiased @ 09/07/2008 12:50:24 AM

    By arming Geogia's army and bringing them into NATO, you are creating a moral hazard. In other words, Geogia will feel little risk in attacking South Ossetia again (in case you didn't know, the side we are supporting attacked first), becase good old uncle sam will be there to protect them this time thanks to NATO's rules (an attack on one is an attack on all). And guess who will pay the price, yes that's right uncle sam. Oh, and in case you thought that this would be a principled fight, it would, but for mostly for the other side. That is because the vast majority of South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia. They want their self-deptermination, freedom and independence. This was the same principle that the West fought for when it defended the Kosovars in 1999 by bombing Serbia for 78 days. So by rearming Georgia's military, we are in effect encouraging the denial of another people's human rights and freedom. And in case you thought the principle we are defending is a country's territorial integrity, obviously that is BS, we we all saw earlier this year when we accepted Kosovo's declaration of independence (which meant the denial of Serbia's territorial integrity).

    • Posted By: Markov1918 @ 09/08/2008 3:43:35 PM

      Georgia responded to constant mortar barrages by the separatists who are armed and supported by Russia. That's for the "side that attacked first comment." The reason Russia supports separatists in S.Ossetia and Abkhazia is to destabilize the only truly Democratic, pro-western government in the region that does not bow to them.

    • Posted By: Braes @ 09/07/2008 11:05:42 AM

      Sir, I agree with the moral hazard concept here. If I may however, we have been assigning our Moral Hazards to others, through treaties. Our long list of foreign entanglements is staggering. Geo Washington would puke.

  • Posted By: mediabiased @ 09/07/2008 12:38:02 AM

    This war started when Georgia attacked a province who's people don't want to be part of Georgia (just like the Kosovars didn't want to be part of Serbia). This province was at relative peace for 16 years before this attack. When Kosovars wanted to be free of Serbia, Western leaders and media frames focused on the denial of Kosovar human rights. When Ossetians want to be free of Georgia, Western leaders and media frames focus on Georgia's erritorial integrity. We never heard that the vast majority of South Ossetia's people don't want to be part of Georgia (as we did in Kosovo). While the
    West bombed Serbia for wanting to protect its territorial integrity in 1999, it supports Georgia who wants to deny the Ossetians the same rights as the Kosovars received through Western recognition. Is this not blatant hypocrisy and a failure to apply principles equally? I have not heard one logical explanation of why South Ossetia should be treated differently than Kosovo if one is to apply principles equally in international relations. Someone please explain why this is anything than other than power politics (where ethics only a rhetorical guise by the powerful)

    • Posted By: Markov1918 @ 09/08/2008 3:39:53 PM

      Constant cross border shootouts and machine gun and mortar attacks are not a "relative peace for 16 years." Russia supported Montenegro's independence, opposed Kosovo's, supported Abkhazia's and S.Ossetia's and fought to stop Chechnya's. Now they are recognizing S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. So who is hypocritical here?? The answer is everyone at some point but don't use Kosovo as an excuse for Russia.

  • Posted By: Karl Hand @ 09/08/2008 3:38:43 PM

    Georgia is just a satellite of the Jewnited states government and Israel. It did what it was told to do, and when to do it, when the Russian leadership was in China. Time to liberate this country from the Jews and Neo-cons who have created this crisis. Death to ZOG. www.rnpaheadquarters.org

  • Posted By: Karl Hand @ 09/08/2008 3:34:50 PM

    Georgia is just another satellite of the Jewnited States and Israel. This unholy alliance is intent upon undermining Russia and all who oppose their Jew world order. www.rnpaheadquarters.org

  • Posted By: aao2569 @ 09/08/2008 3:32:28 PM

    As I understand it Joe Biden was involved in this cluster...k in Georgia alongside with Cheney and Rice. Why nobody even mention that in the American press?

  • Posted By: jblackwell88 @ 09/06/2008 11:30:09 PM

    The Georgia joins NATO, it will destroy the alliance. Georgia isn't worth World War III, and the West knows it. If Georgia became a member, Russia would invade, and then there would be a "now what?" followed by the same impotence to act this past month. NATO members would doubt the reliability of the alliance on their own behalf because collectively they couldn't justify intervention on behalf of Georgia. If we're NATO I'd keep the alliance strong by keeping these little two-bit countries out.

    • Posted By: Markov1918 @ 09/08/2008 3:27:20 PM

      Poland was worth WW II and it's not your place to say that Georgia is not. It's not about Georgia, it's about every nation in the region feeling confident in what tomorrow brings, with a belligerent Russia on their doorstep.

    • Posted By: Braes @ 09/07/2008 11:23:44 AM

      NATO has been struggling for relevance since 1991. This Administration fed Europe Afghanistan and went off after Saddam, and that Oil, as a bridge to take down Iran. (they also wanted to eliminate the 7000 princes in Saudi Arabia, the Egyptian Government, Syria, Hizbollah, China, North Korea, through regime change and coercive force.) It was the policy promugated to this president by the Neo cons.
      They threatened to call him, Bush, an appeaser.

      • Posted By: Braes @ 09/07/2008 12:56:55 PM

        (Source:March 24, 2003 issue
        Copyright © 2003 The American Conservative
        Whose War?

        A neoconservative clique seeks to ensnare our country in a series of wars that are not in America???s interest.
        by Patrick J. Buchanan)

  • Posted By: Tac Man @ 09/06/2008 10:49:38 PM

    Russians are great people but a history of authoritarian grip has left them longing for a return to the vices of the old regime. One of which is unbridled fear of anything that might just represent a threat to the motherland. The move into Georgia, and threats of the same for Poland, Ukraine and other outlying former client states will continue UNLESS and until the west....unfortunately meaning the US, apply pressure to restrain Russian expansion. Americans, who have never had a real threat to their personal security since WW2 do not believe or begin to comprehend what it is like to be under totalitarian rule. Thanks to those who have seen what loss of freedom is like, still try to step forward to halt aggressive nation states and even try to hold back the tide of Islamic terrorism. Those who think that there are no threats out there merely run risk of sacrificing the freedom of future generations because they think that freedom is free of those who would take it from them.

    • Posted By: Don't Tread on Me @ 09/07/2008 1:15:53 AM

      Tac Man, you mention Poland as an object of Russia's expansionist aggression...that is because Poland is extremely pro-US and has offered to deploy a new ballistic missile interceptor weapons system on behalf of the US on its territory. Now let's just put aside our American nationalism for just a moment and think about this as objectively as we can - what if tomorrow Canada announced it would deploy a similar interceptor system on behalf of China in order to contain the threat of a nuclear America? Wouldn't we have some aggression in response? Wouldn't we make all sorts of threats to Canada, our formerly peaceful neighbor? And while we've put aside our American nationalism, don't you think that to most of the rest of the world we are exhibiting quite a bit of expansionism these days? And while we certainly have never experienced totalitarian rule, I beg you to read the Constitution and then ponder the policy decisions and executive orders to come out of the White House since Woodrow Wilson and tell me this - are we experiencing Constitutional rule? THAT is the standard by which we must judge ourselves if we are to call ourselves Americans. You're right - "[t]hose who think that there are no threats out there merely run risk of sacrificing the freedom of future generations"; but I echo the Founders when I say this - the only way we can sacrifice the freedom of future generations is for OUR generation to hand it over to our own government in exchange for protection, whether from domestic terrorism or foreign "aggressive nation states". We are a nation protected by two oceans on our east and west, a desert to the south and a highly diversified, difficult-to-pass land mass to the north - we will never be invaded and will never lose our freedoms to an external power. Our greatest threats lie within our own borders: greed and power, both of which find their most deplorable expression in the corporate megaliths which control our economy and highly influence Washington policy (and just think - we taxpayers are about to pay for two of the biggest to remain afloat after they screwed themselves with business practices my teenage sister-in-law wouldn't dare to employ in her lawnmowing business!). I'm not criticizing you, I'm asking you to consider all this honestly. Now, let's put our American nationalism back on and be patriots of the 1776 variety, those who told us to beware of foreign intervention and entangling alliances.

      • Posted By: Markov1918 @ 09/08/2008 3:22:15 PM

        If Canada felt threatened by the US I could see that move happening. But that is hardly the case. You are offering a comparable scenario that is fortunately not ever going to happen. But the Russians may yet place missiles in Venezuela. And the reason why the US is acting like the world's policeman is because Europe is impotent and indicisive. There is noone who wishes more than I that the US be able to take a back seat and let someone else check bullying dictatorships.

  • Posted By: lmht @ 09/08/2008 1:08:43 PM

    For a better picture just google Saakashvily. Human Rights. 1 bil. to rebuild their economy? What economy?
    They never had one in a first place.

  • Posted By: BIGSRBIN @ 09/08/2008 12:31:19 PM

    ARM GEORGIA, ARE YOU CRAZY? US CANT AFFORD TO REBUILD NEW ORLEANS. CLEAN YOUR HOUSE FIRST , BEFORE YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT OTHER PEOPLES HOUSES. WE ARE BROKE. CHINA OWNS US NOW. WE WENT FROM GREAT CREDITOR NATIONS TO A GREATEST DEBTOR NATION OF ALL TIMES. HALIBURTON PACKED UP AND TOOK ALLTHE MONEY TO DUBAI. IF THEY DONT HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THE USA WHO ELSE HAS?

  • Posted By: ike2000 @ 09/08/2008 12:06:16 PM

    $1-billion for Georgia? That's the bounty. Hollywood Mikheil Saakashvili, gleefully, will deliver. What about half of that for Haiti, who has been smacked with the left and right hooks by ALL hurricanes?

  • Posted By: ike2000 @ 09/08/2008 11:56:28 AM

    Mark My Words! Georgia will be: KEY to the current presidential election. McCain, secretly, will prod Mikheil Saakashvili to provoke Russia, into another toothless mini-made-for-media-scuffle. That conflict, will be the home-run -- the "November Surprise!" the Republican is been aiming for. Remember the Iran-Contra Ayatollah Bible? McCain's Georgian lobbyist should be shadowed NOW!, not after the scam has succeed in denying Obama, a rightful and legitimate win.

  • Posted By: 4carol @ 09/08/2008 11:56:15 AM

    There's only one way to even begin to change our great country's policies and that is to vote out the elite GOP!
    This country was born on the vision by the people, of the people and for the people....NO WHERE DOES IT SAY by the RICH ONLY people, of the RICH ONLY people and for the RICH ONLY people!!!!!
    MCWAR and PALIN will put this country back 50 years and leave us with only more problems and more deficit, that is if we survive after the next war that they will initiate - the only ? is, who will it be? China, Venezuela, North Korea, Russia, Pakistan, Iran - anyone who believes different is not only a fool, they are also just plain stupid!!!!!

  • Posted By: Kuksha @ 09/08/2008 10:49:05 AM

    Misters! At the time of the USSR Stalin a feather stroke has divided Ossetia, Khruschev has presented Crimea to Ukraine and others have made many nonsenses. Territories were transferred because of convenience of communications or even a mail service. Here experience of the cautious surgeon (as is necessary at division of Siamese twins) instead of skill of woodcutter Saakashvili. Which the Ossetin has decided to cut down with a root of all.

  • Posted By: Earthling @ 09/08/2008 2:04:27 AM

    The Georgian conflict shows how powerless the West really is against Russia. The EU can't even impose economic sanctions on Russia while the Americans dare not send in troops. Once Russia bites back, the West turn out no more than a paper tiger.

    • Posted By: Kuksha @ 09/08/2008 10:24:27 AM

      All understand that business wrong. Serbs smothered Kosovars in Kosovo, now the truth Kosovars smother Serbs. And in Georgia Georgians smother the Ossetin. For whom to be at war not clearly.

Reply

Report Abuse

Enter comments if any for reporting abuse