The Collapse of Primary Care

Disaster looms as medical students abandon family practice for higher-paying sub-specialties.

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  • Posted By: biffgunnerMD @ 09/12/2008 10:46:00 AM

    This author suffers from medical "ethnocentrism". In short a whiner. He never mentions the dramatic transfer of payments from specialists, to these current crybabies, accomplished 15 years ago, under the RBRVS, when a prior generation of whiners were saying the exact same words. So soon forgotten how 40% of specialist payments went to his non-specialty??? The fact is, most of these people are at the bottom of the class, lazy, and don't know squat. It sure is difficult to continuously claim you are worth so much more than those who truly handle much more complex situations that primary care physicians. This whiner needs to grow up, or change to one of those nasty specialties he thinks is getting a free ride.

    • Posted By: 7011mgb @ 10/01/2008 11:39:18 PM

      Great nic there doc ... get it off a comic book?

  • Posted By: markfruin @ 09/12/2008 1:08:17 PM

    Why are procedures valued more than thinking, even though there is so much more information to master in primary care than in a sub-specialty?
    I disagree with this statement. As a board certified neuroradiologist, I spent seven years in training following medical school. Family practioners and internists spend three years.

    • Posted By: 7011mgb @ 10/01/2008 11:37:34 PM

      Sigh... but that is all you know.

  • Posted By: Suraya @ 09/14/2008 12:57:52 PM

    What's missing from our health care system right now is the "care". The problem is that the system is focused on parts of the problem, not the whole problem. That's what specialists do, they focus on one piece of the body. Has anyone seen a specialist lately who wanted to listen to how different symptoms might be related? Those doctors are rare. I've been a nurse for 30 years. Dr Ornish is shining a light on a complex problem that needs thoughtful attention. Susan

    • Posted By: 7011mgb @ 10/01/2008 11:33:52 PM

      Exactly! Perfectly stated.

  • Posted By: paulanthony72@hotmail.com @ 09/13/2008 3:29:47 PM

    Nurse Practitioners, like myself, are providing excellent primary care to patients. There will not be a shortage of providers out there.

    • Posted By: jron @ 09/14/2008 2:12:46 PM

      Nurse practitioners do have their place in health care, like the mini clinics and such, but they are not trained in medicine like physicians. NP spend far less time in schooling than even family physicians and are poorly trained in diagnosis. They may do well with simple visits, but they simply are not trained well enough to be the "backbone of primary care." AS the old saying goes: you get what you pay for.

      • Posted By: 7011mgb @ 10/01/2008 11:32:23 PM

        You are misinformed.

    • Posted By: weesie @ 09/14/2008 4:14:43 AM

      to

  • Posted By: endacottmd @ 09/17/2008 3:59:04 PM

    What we need to do in this country is change the way Medicare reimburses. Decrease RVU for specialist and their procedures and increase the RVU's for primary care. It's that simple. Then the system will take care of itself in attracting those to primary care

    • Posted By: moon&croon @ 09/25/2008 8:06:11 PM

      endacottmd:
      You are right!.Yet,there are ways to "broaden" the spsctrum of primary care.Why not encouraging the "family medicine" specialist to carry the full burden of some aspects like "fundoscopy",d/t a case "tinea
      -capitis",d/t simple cases of "pelvic inflamatory diseases ",d/t simple "urethral dischage" in males,d/t "atypical pnumonia", giving the first "shot" of parenteral antibiotic to a child strongly suspected to
      have "meningitis" as well as "planning the protocol" for stongly suspected tuberculosis cases ?.
      A simple look to Europe's usage of parenteral antibiotics will give us a hint: in Engeland,primary care doctors use antibiotic injections in 0.5% of all prescriptions including antibiotics.While in Italy,the percentage is 40% !.In my opinion,that reflects wide variations in the "risk taking attitude" among doctors of primary care in addition to the variability of "scop" of responsibilty inbetween which necessiates further
      adjustement.

  • Posted By: moon&croon @ 09/25/2008 7:35:05 PM

    Sandra Lee Visner Howell:
    No doubt that "general surgery" is more acute and sensitive comparing to primary care burden.Yet,i saw during my career 4 cases of "intusscception" ,all of them died either due to failure to diagnose or failure to treat !.The first case was a young man who presented initially by "abdominal colic",after a while was transferred to emergency due to "haemodynamic unstability".After being declared as "acute abdomen" case,necessiatig "laparatomy",the surgon delt with his problem in "one phase" surgey i.e: resection and anastomosis",and the result was "renal failure" followed by death !.The second case was a young child who also died.The third case was a man who was known to have "intestinal neoplasm" in advance.Yet on presenting with "abdominal pain",nobody pick the point and the end result was death.The fouth case actually did not die,simply because the father of the victim was a doctor,who supposed that his child's abdominal pain is not a "medical problem",and the young child was saved by early surgery.I am sorry to tell you that many surgons
    "overlap" between what is "real surgery" and those problems solved by "conservative" measures.

  • Posted By: Sandra Lee Visner Howell @ 09/25/2008 2:52:16 PM

    Dr. Ornish's comments are well presented. However, I think that it is no longer beneficial to keep explaining a shortage of primary care doctors on the draw of the more ''lucrative'' specialties, like surgery and cardiology. I am a General Surgeon, and I was drawn into the field because of the awesomeness of it, as well as the challenge of learning enough and performing my skills well enough to significantly alter a patient's status, usually for the better, sometimes with a one hour operation. It is dramatic, to take a very ill child to the operating room, remove a badly infected appendix, and send them home the next day, smiling and laughing. It is very satisfying, professionally, to be able to do this. There is also a smaller margin for error, an increase in the range and seriousness of a possible poor outcome, as evidenced by higher malpractice premiums. In fact, General Surgery is considered ''primary'' surgical care, and there is also a shortage of General Surgeons. The crisis in the General Surgery shortage may mean that you have to take your child with appendicitis many miles to receive, what is, I would unabashedly identify, as lifesaving care. It is certainly not productive to continue to paint all of us who embrace the challenge of becoming surgeons, as money grubing, opportunity seekers. Dr. Ornish, my income has slipped by more than 25% in the past five years, so it is misleading, and counterproductive, to indicate that primary care is taking a bigger hit than other specialists during this turbulent time in medicine.
    Sandra Lee Visner Howell, M.D., F.A.C.S.

  • Posted By: Wbresler @ 09/17/2008 12:47:00 PM

    In ???The Collapse of Primary Care,??? Dr. Dean Ornish correctly identifies many of the economic challenges confronting the primary care workforce in this country, and also accurately points out the fact that so long as reimbursements devalue primary care services, more and more medical school graduates will opt for more lucrative specialties. I support Dr. Ornish???s excellent analysis and would like to use this opportunity to tell some good news on the primary care front.

    The nation???s colleges of osteopathic medicine have a proud heritage of producing primary care physicians, and a plurality of their graduates continues to pursue careers in one of the primary care specialties. In spite of their sometimes significant debt burdens, nearly 30 percent of 2007 graduating osteopathic medical school students plan to specialize in the primary care specialties of family medicine, general internal medicine or pediatrics.

    Today, nearly one in five U.S. medical students is studying in an osteopathic medical school, a number that is growing each year. The number of osteopathic medical school graduates is projected to increase from 2,849 in 2005 to more than 4,000 in 2015.

    Osteopathic physicians (DOs) are fully licensed to practice the full scope of medicine in all existing medical specialties. But historically, DOs have had a special commitment to providing primary care, particularly to the nation???s rural and underserved populations. Some 45 percent of the nation???s more than 55,000 DOs practice in one of the primary care specialties.

    The American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) is advocating with federal agencies and legislators for increased tuition scholarship and loan-forgiveness programs that are tied to needs for primary care physicians, as well as to implement changes in federal tax laws that would maintain and expand deductions for medical student loan interest. We also are working with a variety of other physician and medical education organizations to prevent the type of downward pressure on physician income represented by the current reimbursement formulas.

    I am hopeful that, with the help of the nation???s growing number of osteopathic medical colleges and the primary care-focused physicians they graduate, and with support from the federal government agencies that are focused improving the funding and delivery of health care, we can avert a primary care crisis.

    The American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) represents the 25 U.S. colleges of osteopathic medicine and their faculties, students, and administrators.

    Stephen C. Shannon, DO, MPH
    President
    American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine

  • Posted By: vg0000 @ 09/14/2008 2:12:55 PM

    And one last comment, this article states that an average family practice physician makes about $185, 470. I have a hard time believing this because family practice doctors are usually the lowest paid, less than Pediatricians and Internal Medicine doctors. The salary quoted by most Internal Medicine doctors that I have spoken to was from $140K to $160K.

    • Posted By: PatMD @ 09/15/2008 3:17:27 AM

      Family Practice physicians make less than $150,000 in a private practice setting in the Southwestern US. If they work for a hospital, it is much less. That's why you will find many Emergency Rooms manned by Family Practice physicians and not Emergency Medicine Physicians. They go where the compensation is and still get to treat patients.....but at a much higher compensation rate.

  • Posted By: PatMD @ 09/15/2008 2:52:32 AM

    Weesie,
    You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Physician Assistants and Nurse Practitioners. All Nurse Practitioners have a Master's Degree, and the vast majority of PA's also have Master's Degrees. I believe that all PA Programs must be transferred over to a Master's Program in the very near future. I know of NO program in the USA that confers a PA certificate within two years of graduation from High School. If you know of one, name it and I'll be more than happy to check.

    Other facts: Nurse Practitioners can work independently of a Physician. That means they can hang their own shingle up on the door and see patients. PA's work under the supervision of an MD or DO. Most states allow a physician to supervise up to five PA's at a time. PA's and NP's are trained in Family Medicine and for the most part do an outstanding job. I work with several of them and they provide a high level of care. Of course, there are ALWAYS those stories where somebody made a mistake. It happens all the time, to Doctors, Nurses, PA's and NP's. Medicine is an art.....not a science. If it was as simple as 1+1=2, there would be no mistakes. Add in long hours, lack of sleep, etc., and mistakes are going to happen. Generally, if a PA or NP has seen a patient a couple of times for the same complaint, it's time to pass that patient on to a physician to see if there is something the Mid-Level Provider may have missed. I will tell you that we converse about patients regularly in my practice and discuss various treatment options amongst ourselves. Many times, it is a group approach to medicine.

    Bottom line: If insurance companies refuse to raise their rates of compensation for Primary Care Physicians, then the Mid-Level Providers (PA and NP) will be tasked to pick up the void left in Primary Care. Physicians will go where the money is.....and that's a fact. It's hard to be altruistic and live the lifestyle of a Family Practice Physician when you know you could be living a much better lifestyle as a Specialist.

    The real question is: Are society and the government ready to increase the compensation to pay Family Practice Physicians the same compensation as they do a Specialist? Yes, insurance rates will increase; and, yes, Medicare rates will need to also increase. If that is acceptable, then you will see more physicians in Primary Care. If that is not acceptable, then you better get used to seeing PA's and NP's in the Primary Care role. Pretty soon, that's all that is going to be left.

  • Posted By: rodmaxwell @ 09/15/2008 2:03:02 AM

    I happen to be a PA practicing in pediatrics. Most PA programs are the equivalent of 3 years education consolidated into 27 months. The majority are now master's programs that do require a bachelor's degree as well as the same required science courses required of pre-med students. I am not aware of any that allow for a high school graduate to be accepted and then practicing medicine 2 years later - that would be ludicrous. I don't claim to have an equal knowledge base as an MD, especially relating to the residency programs required of medical doctors. I do feel very comfortable providing quality medical care to children and their families just as any medical doctor would. The examples given of mistakes made by PAs are likely just as common among doctors. We are all human and make mistakes. I work among an equal number of PAs and doctors and I feel like PAs are even more cautious and less likely to make a major mistake because we are not under the same time constraints as doctors and if we question a decision, we can always consult with a physician. Finally, the future of medical care is leaning more and more to the use of mid-level providers, especially in primary care because medical schools are not putting out more doctors, not to mention the lack of incentives for those who do graduate from medical school as discussed here. I would hope that we would be more objective in our evaluation of PAs and their role in medical care and realize that they play a crucial role now and in the future of our country's healthcare, especially relating to primary care.

  • Posted By: Desdmona @ 09/12/2008 6:01:35 AM

    This article is a wake up call for those of us who struggle to pay for our health care. It points out what most of us have known forever but have no voice to speak of. Insurance companies are literally running the business of health care into the ground. They set the "reasonable & accustomary" prices we all pay. HMO's have told physicians that they can only sepnd so much time with each patient. If yu

    • Posted By: weesie @ 09/15/2008 1:04:06 AM

      THOUGHT I'D MENTION THAT THE STARTING SALARIES FOR MOST NEW TEACHERS IS MORE LIKE 30,000.00 WITH FULLY PAID HEALTH CARE, KO1 PLANS, NOT TO MENTION THE EXTENSIVE HOLIDAYS. ALSO THE GOVERNMENT WILL DISCHAGE YOUR STUDENT LOANS IF YOU WORK AS A TEACHER FOR FOUR YEARS, I BELIEVE.. OTHER LITTLE PERKS ARE DISCOUMTS AT ALOT OF STORES FOR TEACHERS ON SUPPLIES, ALTHOUGH I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT SUPPLIES THEY NEED TO BUY SINCE I'VE HAD TO BUY ALL MY KIDS SUPPLIES FOR SCHOOL, PLUS BE ASKED TO SUPPLY TISSUES, EXTRA SUPPLIES FOR NEEDY STUDENTS, HELP BY DONATING MONEY FOR COMPUTERS, SELL CANDY, MAGAZINES, ETC., FOR EVERY TYPE OF PROJECT THE SCHOOL IS TRYING TO IMPLEMENT. IT NEVER ENDS.. LET'S NOT FORGET THE YRLY RAISES THESE TEACHERS ALSO GET WHEN DRS FEES DECREAE AT LEAST 10% ANNUALLY A CROSS THE BOARD FROM ALL INSURANCE COMPANIES, WITH DOCS EXPENSES INCREASING EVRY YR FOR SALARIES, MAL-PRATICE, RENT, UTILIES, THE LIST GOES ON.

  • Posted By: tt1943 @ 09/12/2008 9:07:38 AM

    So, is part of the question to ask whether others can fill the role of the Primary doctor. Examples would include physician assistants and nurse practicioners (sic). If the primary is essentially a genral conractor, does he really need the training and $185K?

    I went to a family doctor for almost 35 years. We essentially grew up together. He became my friend as well as my doctor. Like me, he grew close to retiement age so I changed to another doctor for the "nexct" 30 years (hopefylly!!). Frankly, there is no comparison. My fomer doctor was knowledgeable and was able to diagnose almost any condition. My new guy is fequently baffled by what I think are simple conditions (a rash for example). So he sends me to a dermatologist. Well, I didn't need him for that. A PA could have looked at the rash, said I don't have a clue and referrd me to a specalist.

    I think the message is "times change". Resisting that change for merely historical reasons may not be smart.

    • Posted By: weesie @ 09/14/2008 4:54:02 AM

      Enmost physician assitants have a two yr training program right out of high school, then they go work with an MD, who essentially attemtpts to train them. However, the PA is undereducated and overly empowered for the job they are allowed to do, your life is in their hands. I' will not see either a PA or a nurse. Oh by the way, a PA with two yrs of education out of hight shcool is getting paid about $100,000.00 a year, so how do you justify this high salary, it is two thirds of what a primary care doc makes with far less educaton and training.our Comment

      • Posted By: dianepy @ 09/14/2008 8:51:21 PM

        Physician's Assistant training is a GRADUATE level university program. Here is a link to Duke University's program webpage: http://paprogram.mc.duke.edu/s_prog_hist.asp. Most PAs have a science-related bachelor's degree, prior experience working in health care and clinical internships under their belts before they begin working in the field.

        Nurse Practioner degree programs are also at the graduate level. Most NP program applicants hold an RN license, possess a bachelor's degree in nursing and have years of experience practicing as an RN. Here is a link for more information about this type of advanced training: http://neonatology.mc.duke.edu/NNP.htm

        I believe you may be thinking of nurse assistants and medical assistants. These individuas typically hold 6month-1year post-secondary certificates, earn $10-$15 per hour, and are not qualified to do much more than check blood pressure--though they are still a critical part of service-delivery.

        As a patient, I am most interested in the health care provider's level of education and years of experience. I would take an experienced PA or NP over a brand new primary care physician any day.

        • Posted By: weesie @ 09/15/2008 12:42:43 AM

          I CLEARLY KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEEN A pa AND A NURSING ASSITANT OR MOA. AND BY THE WAY, YOUR SO-CALLED "BRAND NEW PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIAN" HAS COMPLETED FOUR YEARS OF MEDICAL SCHOOL UNDER THE MOST RIGOROUS TRAINING IN ADDITION TO THREE YEARS OF RESIDENCY AGAIN UNDER THE MOST CLOSELY SCRUTINIZED SUPERVISON AND TRAINING OF HIS MD COLLEAGUES, HAS TO PASS HIS RESIDENCY AND ALSO PASS HIS VERY DIFICULT MD EXAM IN ORDER TO BE FULLY LICENSED TO PRACTICE. . I'LL TAKE A BRAND NEW PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIAN ANYDAY. I VERY SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT IF YOU HAD A VERY SERIOUS LIFE-THREATENING CONDITION YOU WOULD TURN YOUR ENTIRE CARE OVER TO THE CARE OF A PA, . ter Your Comment

        • Posted By: weesie @ 09/15/2008 12:28:12 AM

          DUKE UNIVERSITY'S PA PROGRAM WAS A TWO YR TRAINING PROGRAM OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL UNTIL TWO YRS AGO, WHEN THEY REQUIRED A ba DEGREE,WHICH CAN BE IN ANY MAJOR (IT DOES NOT EVEN HAVE TO APPLY TO HEALTH CARE, BIOLOGY, CHEMISTY IT CAN BE IN ART HISTORY). MANY pa PROGRAMS IN THE COUNTRY ARE STILL A TWO YR PROGRAM WHICH DO NOT REQUIRE A ba OR bs dEGREE.. aND THEY SURE DON'T DESERVE 100,00.00 A YR SALARY EITHER. i KNOW A NURSE CLINICIAN HAS A MASTER'S DEGREE, BUT EVEN THAT IS A FAR CRY FROM COMPLETING MEDICAL SCHOOL AND A MULTI YEAR RESIDENCY PROGRAM. tHE PAs AND NURSE CLINICIANS STILL RECEIVE THEIR TRAINING THROUGH THE SKILLED AND HIGHLY TRAINED mdS THEY WORK FOR. SO DON'T TELL ME THEY ARE EQUIVALENT TO THE EDUCATION OR EX[ERIENCE OF Mds. WHO ARE YOU TRYING TO CONVINCE? I HAVE HAD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE WITH THEIR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND WON'T SEE THEM FOR ANYTHING. I ALSO KNOW OF SEVERAL PEOPLE WHO WERE SEVERLY MIS-DIAGNOSED AND IN ONE CASE IT WAS A YOUNG FEMALE WHO SAW A PA FOR A YR COMPLAINING OF PAIN IN HER CHEST, WAS TOLD BY THE PA SHE HAD A MUSCLE CRAMP AND LATER WAS FOUND TO HAVE LYMPHOMA, SO SHE LOST A WHOLE YR OF BEING ABLE TO BE TREATED FOR THIS VERY SERIOUS, LIFE THREATENING CONDITON AT THE HANDS OF A PA. MY SISTER ISI AN RN WHO IS A CHARGE NURSE IN THE ICU AND WAS REVIEWING ORDERS FROM A PA FOR A PATIENT AND MY SISTER REALIZED THE DOSAGE OF MEDICATION COULD HAVE STOPPED THE PT'S HEART SO SHE CALLED THE PR'S DOCTOR WHO TOLD HER TO CHANGE THE ORDER IMMEDIATELY. CHECK YOUR FACTS. MOST OF THE PAs ARE GRADUATES OF TWO YR PROGRAMS OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL. ANY BY THE WAY, THE DUKE PA PROGRAM WAS INTENDED TO TRAIN PEOPLE TO ONLY TREAT VERY MINOR THINGS, IT HAS GOTTEN OUT OF CONTROL AND NOW THESE PAs ARE DOING EVERYTHING THAT THEY JUST DO NOT HAVE THE EDUCATION OR TRAINING TO DO.

  • Posted By: lydiaRN @ 09/15/2008 12:14:01 AM

    I agree with the article that primary care is a great need in our society at a time when primary care physicians are becoming scarce. Nurse practitioners and physicians assistants are increasing in number and have the skills and experience to care for patients in a primary care role. Sure, if you have complicated symptoms you may want to go to a specialized physician. But a lot of what PCPs do (or need to do) is manage chronic health issues. NPs & PAs can fill vital roles of educating and helping the diabetic patients manage their diabetes and foot care so that they will not be the ones getting an amputation. Health care is changing! Physicians need to understand their roles are changing as well, becoming more specialized. "Doctor" cannot be the only trusted name in health care. The health care team needs to become more complex, allowing for other professionals like NPs and PAs to fill the roles physicians are moving out of because of money.

  • Posted By: lgove @ 09/14/2008 10:30:20 PM

    I figured out the course of the family physician as soon as they quit making house calls. It's not about the well being of the patient it's only about the bottom line. Welcome to American the new third world country.

  • Posted By: nodocinbox @ 09/14/2008 10:10:00 PM

    To dianepy:

    It is interesting that you would believe that I would not know what a PA or NP is or what level of training they have. As I mentioned I have been in practice for 12 years after completing a 6 year residency in a surgical specialty. You are certainly free to have your opinion, but I can assure you that you are naive if you think that a PA or NP have equivalent training compared to an MD or DO. The fact that theirs is a "graduate" level program is irrelevant. No one should imply that NPs or PAs are less intelligent that physicians, but the quality of a physicain, NP, or PA is intrinsically a combination of the intelligence and experience, and the most intense experience is almost always gathered in a quality training program. The number of encounters, the sheer time engrossed in patient care, and clinical decision making is significantly greater in physician training programs. This is supplemented with subsequent experinece gained in practice. That being said, I have known a number of excellent PA and NP practioners, but that doesn't translate into a level of trust in their abilities that would make me prefer to see them instead of a physician. I, and most if not all of the physicians I know, see fellow physicains for our own healthcare needs. If I scheduled an appointment to see a "doctor", that is exactly what I expect. I can assure you that most physicians do not trust their own care to NPs or PAs, but you are free to do as you please.

  • Posted By: nodocinbox @ 09/14/2008 5:15:50 PM

    Pardon my verbose response, but I ran out of room on my previous comment. The conclusion of my comment is the following paragraph:

    Perhaps it would be reasonable to have a tiered system of primary care, with a tiered system of reimbursement. More extensive postdoctoral training would allow greater reimbursement. It is a poorly kept secret that there is already a tiered system of delivery, with nurse practitioners and physicians assistants seeing patients and billing under the "supervisory" physician's name, generating reimbursements at the same rate as a physician's evaluation, when in fact the physician frequently never sees the patient (but he receives the income). This practice is rampant in primary care. Unfortunately there are some specialists who also employ this type of proxy medicine, but I disagree with it, as do many specialists. Dr. Ornish may not employ physician extenders (nurse practitioners or physicians assistants), but I think he needs to carefully consider that complaining can often bring about an airing of dirty laundry that his primary care colleagues may want to be kept out of the spotlight.

  • Posted By: nodocinbox @ 09/14/2008 5:13:40 PM

    Before responding to Dr. Ornish's comments, I feel obligated to admit that I am a surgeon in a specialty field. There are many reasons why a specialist may make more money than primary care doctors. This is not to say the specialists are smarter, more dedicated, or in any way shape or form better people. The difference in income is due to multiple factors, including the more extensive training, the much longer residency programs, the significant risks that we often take when performing procedures that could be life-threatening or have a significant and immediate adverse impact upon our patient' s well-being. Additional elements include the requirement that we are usually available 24 hours a day seven days a week to handle emergency situations, and I'm not talking about taking telephone calls, I'm talking about being in the hospital, in the emergency room, in the operating room, in the intensive care unit, etc. Dr. Ornish also omits the fact that while we are performing procedures, primary care physician such as himself may be able to see 10 or 20 times the number of patients that we are dealing with during the same time element. I have respect for primary care physicians, but the hard fact is, in my 12 years of practicing medicine after residency, I believe that most specialists work longer hours, with a more intense workload, taking on greater risks, and sometimes incredible stress when dealing with the complications that can arise from procedures we perform. At some point in our training we all make have to choose what type of medicine were going to practice. I don't think any one in the right mind would take on a postdoctoral training program that may last typically at least five years, and sometimes as long as eight years, in order to earn the same amount as a primary care physician, who trains for three years in a less intense environment with less personal sacrifice. This is a debate that can rage on in an unending fashion, depending upon your point of view. Needless to say I find Dr. Ornish's point of view, extremely one-sided, if not jaded.

    No disrespect intended, but I see many patients who have been incorrectly treated or misdiagnosed. It is not because the primary care physician was negligent, intended to miss the diagnoses, or that I'm smarter than they are. The reasons have to do with the breadth versus depth of knowledge they are expected to master. Frankly, I don't understand the rationale of anyone expecting three years of postdoctoral training to be adequate to take care of the entire body, versus five or six years of postdoctoral training to become a surgical specialist in a particular anatomic area or organ system. I do think it would be reasonable for primary care physician to make equal income, provided they have a similar level expertise and ability. This would unfortunately require significantly longer residency programs for primary care physicians.

  • Posted By: Bob M @ 09/12/2008 1:13:55 PM

    After more than a decade living in France, we returned to the US. Someone who has been there should tell people here what a well-run health system looks like. We had two family physicians. One was nearby and could be seen the same day for colds and such, and the other was more distant but a brilliant internist for more difficult problems. He was "booked" which meant one had to wait perhaps a day or two for an appointment. The charge before insurance was 23 Euros. Our insurance covered all of it. Prescriptions were usually for four or five items and cost nothing with insurance. There was no copay. The physicians??? pay is controlled by the government, but I have never met a physician who did not like his/her job or who exhibited less than full competency. No wonder Doctors without Borders was a product of France. The physicians there feel they have a humanitarian mission. I have yet to feel anything of that here, and the cost is staggering here. We have gone very, very wrong.

    Oh, and to correct a misconception: federal taxes in France are about comparable to taxes here. They just apply the taxes effectively to social needs.

    • Posted By: jron @ 09/14/2008 2:40:00 PM

      if France is so much better, you should return to live there! What has made America great was the individule drive to succeed and to improve his life as well as that of his posterity. That is why so many inventions and progress has been made here. The problem we face today is that Americans are lazy. Everyone wants something for nothing. Everyone want free medical care but no one wants to wait. Who is going to deliver that care? You have to pay someone or "reward" someone for all their efforts to become a physician. Patients today don't care what the doctor says, they just want a medicine and don't want to wait. There is no respect, no "thank you," but a lot of demanding and complaining. In addition, if the doc doesn't do something "right" or if patients are not treated as quickly or attentively as they want, they threaten to sue. Maybe if you couldn't sue the doc, they would be more willing to help. If you want good, well trained, enthusiastic physicians who love thier job and their patients, you have to pay for it with cash, respect...something. Socialism has never worked, because it breeds mediocraty. Just look at France. what good has come out of the country in the last 200 years?

    • Posted By: pinkpanther87413 @ 09/12/2008 2:30:08 PM

      there oathe here has been replaced by "In God We Trust" printed on the dollar bill! sad but true, greed replaced humanity.

  • Posted By: vg0000 @ 09/14/2008 2:01:30 PM

    This is absolutely true. Primary care doctors are so pivotal to health care, and have to be proficient in recognizing an array of pathologies in their patient population. Almost every medical student I know agrees with this. Yet, NONE of us are choosing to go into it. The ones who are choosing Internal medicine definitely want to specialize. This is mainly because after all the loans, sleepless nights, years of education and high stress, primary care is just not worth it. Also, there is too much paperwork, it takes away from patient care. During my medicine rotation, I spend 70% the time making phone calls, and writing notes, and about 30% of time actually caring for patients. As much as I absolutely respect primary care doctors, and think it is vital, I am planning on applying to either Anesthesia or Radiology. In my honest opinion, primary care docs deserve to get just as much or more than some of the specialty fields!

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