People Who Live In Glass Häuser

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Posted By: Omnius @ 10/10/2008 11:26:57 AM

• Posted By: khenson @ 10/10/2008 12:40:06 PM

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  You are an idiot of epic proportions, Omnius. This "free market" you eschew has made the U.S. economy the strongest in the world for some time now and provided a living condition here in the states that 95% of the rest of the world would give anything to achieve.
  
  Even with the current crisis (and we've had these before) the net result has been a progressive move forward of our economy. I bet you weren't spouting your inane gibberish in the economy of the 90's, or the flourish after 2003 or the recovery period of the 80's - of course by your post I'd be surprised if you were around in the 80's.
  
  Questioning our free market model is like driving a car for 10,000 successful miles and then saying it's worthless when it gets a flat tire quickly forgetting what it HAS done for you up to then.
  
  Of course your response to that would be to - what? Go back to horses or just start taking the train? All economic systems have their ups and downs and ours is no different but it certainly seems to be the best based on the quality of American life versus the rest of the world.
  
  America will fix the flat on this Ferrari and we'll roll again and things will be better than before - history shows us that. Provided we don't let the words of the clueless (that would be you, btw) convince us that it really is wise to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
  
  By the way, I suppose since Europe's economies are tanking as well I can use your logic to rant about socialism and over regulation as the cause of their woes, huh?
  
  Go back to sleep, moron.

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    Posted By: EthanHusseinWyatt @ 10/10/2008 12:44:10 PM

    The fundamentals of our economy are strong.
    The fundamentals of our economy are strong.
    The fundamentals of our economy are strong.
    The fundamentals of our economy are strong.
    The fundamentals of our economy are strong.

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      Posted By: khenson @ 10/10/2008 12:54:32 PM

      Do you have a point?
      
      FYI - your Thomas Jefferson quote was contextually aligned with the stance in favor of a unified currency model as opposed to allowing different banks to issue their own proprietary bank notes, not about regulation of the banking industry. As I recall the United States congress agreed and did what the constitution called for them to do - that pesky "coin the money" thing. :)

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        Posted By: EthanHusseinWyatt @ 10/10/2008 1:12:16 PM

        Yeah well your analogy of our economy to a ferarri is wrong too. We don't have a flat tire, we have an engine problem caused by the drivers negligence.
        
        Do you really think we can continue on our economic path of deregulation? You're speaking of this economic crisis like it's a minor setback... as the US and countries around the world economies are crashing.
        
        And my quote may refer to banks controlling the supply of money, but the general idea remains perfectly understandable; banking institution are dangerous and need to be regulated.

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          Posted By: khenson @ 10/10/2008 1:44:57 PM

          Yeah, yeah. I heard all this in 1973, 1987, 2001, 2003, etc. etc. ad nausem and after each of them we flew into an economic flurry that left us better off than when we went into the crash. After the crash everyone sat around giggling and wondering what all the fuss was about.
          
          Each of those crashes had a reason and we learned from each and every one of them and each and every one of them had a bunch of "sky is falling" boneheads running about ranting about capitalism and corporate greed and the subsequent recovery sent them scurrying back to their roach motels.
          
          Do I think we can continue on our current path of deregulation? Sure - the folks on Wall Street aren't real happy right now either and you can bet your sweet butt they won't let subprime mortgages (or derivatives thereof) do this again.
          
          Of course in 1987 it wasn't subprimes that caused the crash and the next crash won't be subprimes either - it'll be something else. What makes you think that regulation will prevent a market crash? It didn't for the European and Asian markets in this case.
          
          It is what happens in every economic system except communism. Of course in that system it only takes one crash and after that the wall comes down.
          
          And finally - Banking institutions are not dangerous, nor are corporations, nor is capitalism. Banks regulate on one thing (going a little Ayn Rand on you here) and that is money and right now they are losing their proverbial derriers. It is in their best interest not to let a repeat of this fiasco happen again purely from a monetary perspective and you can bet they won't. There's your regulation.
          
          Touch the stove and get burnt = don't do that crap again. Simple as that.

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            Posted By: EthanHusseinWyatt @ 10/10/2008 2:03:06 PM

            I'm by no means making an arguement against capitalism. I poke fun at McCain by saying "the fundamentals of our economy are strong" but he is (depending on the context of what he was talking about) right. And I by no means want to regulate corporations into a coma, or redistribute wealth.
            
            And you are right that our economy will emerge from this crisis stronger. And I do believe that the economy must remain a free maket economy that allows corporations to act in their own self-interest (ie capitalism). However, my point is, wouldn't it be better if we had a government with the foresight to apply a responsible amount of regulation to avert a crisis and lessened the pain for the citizens is supposedly represents?
            
            That's all I mean by regulation. And there were plenty of warning signs for this crisis. And they were ignored. Not at the fault of the corporations, at the fault of our government.

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              Posted By: khenson @ 10/10/2008 2:22:58 PM

              These derviatives were so complex that only Will Hunting could have understood them so I don't have a lot of faith in our government to have seen the warning signs.
              
              Explaining them to Greenspan, Bernanke or Paulson would have sent them into scribble mode for years and GW would have drooled and pooped himself.
              
              Regulation assumes that the regulators know what they're talking about and sadly our elected officials are mostly lawyers, a few doctors and few, if any economists.
              
              I maintain that we have to trust the witch doctors of wall street and hope that them losing their posteriors will be enough to maintain a net progressive stance. I was a Marine for 8 years and know first hand how much a mess the government can make of things. Just because the Finance folks screwed this one up doesn't mean the gubmint will do any better - in fact I'd bet against them every time.
              
              Just because someone can see Wall Street from their window doesn't make them an economist.
              
              On a side note: unlike most liberals you have impressed me with your reasoning skills. Just thought you should know that while we disagree, you have my respect in that regard.

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                Posted By: EthanHusseinWyatt @ 10/10/2008 2:41:44 PM

                Well, I'm not going to argue that politicians are capable of doing much else besides getting elected. However, they should be employing advisors who do understand economics. And I'm also not going to argue that politicians always do what's in the best interest of the country. However, that doesn't mean that we as voters shouldn't demand it.
                
                And although the economic mess we are in is extremely complicated, we shouldn't be putting all our apples in Alan Greenspan's basket. We need to heed advice from varying opinions from on regulation and deregulation. If we acted at the beginning of the morgage crisis a few years ago, we could have lessened this one. I agree with you that there will always be bumps in the road, but if we can see them coming we can lessen the impact.
                
                I think the difference between you and I is the basics of conservative vs liberal fundamentals. While we both agree government is imperfect, I believe we should strive for a perfect government, while you think it's impossible and we should minimalize the negative effects. There is no correct answer to that question. (ps. it's sad this doesn't get debated... only flag pins and fingerpointing)
                
                It's appears we have reached a stalemate. It's been a pleasure. And we can both agree that this mess is making Bush poop his pants.

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  Posted By: EthanHusseinWyatt @ 10/10/2008 12:10:18 PM

  I agree. It's time we realize that self-regulation isn't possible. And we all owe a major thankyou to Alan Greenspan (sarcasm). His self-regulation anti-government policy of the last couple decades added to this crisis.
  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/business/economy/09greenspan.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin
  
  The conservative motto of "the government is evil, the government is bad" is a fundamental problem. What is wrong with a controlled responsible government? It isn't the government we should be afraid of, it's the corporations.
  
  "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies . . . If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] . . . will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered . . . The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."
  -Thomas Jefferson

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    Posted By: mercredi38 @ 10/10/2008 1:04:05 PM

    This is nuts. Socialism is NOT helping the UK nor Germany either.The regulation THEY had DID NOT prevent THEIR down turn. Because, you see, greed is NOT synonymous with the Republican Party folks.No matter how much everyone would like to say it originated with them (I'm not American so don't even try to paint me as McCain supporter). Grab a clue people and stop buying the Obama/Biden B.S. -money isn't going to magically fall from the sky once he gets in. He's going to be banging on YOUR door people because that's what we do in socialist countries. Our politicians tell us one thing, and then tax the HELL out of us in the end. Because why? Because you can't tax the same corporations and NOT give them tax breaks because they just FUNDED the damn campaign and they make the economy go 'round. My dad had a saying which I'm sure yours did too "If it SOUNDS to good to be true..." you fill it in - and wake the heck up while you're at it.

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      Posted By: EthanHusseinWyatt @ 10/10/2008 1:21:12 PM

      There is no call for socialism, only regulation. I don't know why everyone thinks that self-regulation works. If a corporation has the opportunity to work in it's own self-interest it will. If that self-interest acts against the stability and the will of the people in this democracy, then that's where regulation steps in.
      
      And nobody thinks money will fall from the sky if Obama is elected (well, most people). It is perfectly obvious that Obama is more well suited and educated to deal with this crisis than McCain is, however. He isn't an economist. He doesn't understand this crisis well enough. But, he is better than McCain.

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  Posted By: dubldoc @ 10/10/2008 12:34:36 PM

  LOL!!!! I couldnt agree more....
  
  WHATEVER HAPPENED TO 'THE BUCK STOPS HERE'??????