If not for the fact that being pro-life in the eyes of the Catholic Church is much more that being anti-abortion I would agree with Mr. Weigel. Without doubt the unconstrained taking of innocent babies is morally and intrinsically wrong, but it is not the only thing that being pro-life in the eyes of catholic faithful is. In my mind, there is no comparison to the taking of innocent life with the taking of a life of a convicted murderer, but that is not for me to decide but up to God to place a value on those lives. God did not say thou shall not kill except for people who committed murder or who oppose democracy or any other aspect which we differentiate ourselves from others. He said ???DON???T KILL ANYONE???. Yet even some good Catholics make a distinction of what constitutes life particularly when it comes to politics. Under Governor George Bush more people were executed in Texas than any other state, yet he ran as a pro-life candidate. I am still waiting for some stance from our current administration that truly promotes viable options to abortion. I am afraid neither Senator McCain nor Senator Obama offer much in the area of promoting options to abortion. What I do see is that one candidate offers us a more inclusive choice towards supporting all aspects of what pro-life means to Catholics.
OPINION
Flawed Thinking
Why pro-life Catholic intellectuals are wrong
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Posted By: Tomcatx6 @ 10/28/2008 12:08:59 PM
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Posted By: darincoveyjc@cox.net @ 12/29/2008 5:03:03 PM
The Hebrew word for Murder and the Hebrew word for Kill are not the same, they are different for a reason. One is an unjust killing and one is just. Do your homework.
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Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/29/2008 12:33:28 PM
Your views about ???Thou Shalt not Kill??? is twisted and lack the basic fundamentals of a person who has study the bible. If we are not to kill anyone then why does God state numerous times in the bible to stone, wipe out, rid, and utterly destroy those who were against his will? When it says ???Thou Shalt Not Kill??? it is talking about murder-meaning the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law. God even provide city where one could escape to in order to avoid being put to death in case of accidental deaths.
Yet even some good Catholics make a distinction of what constitutes life particularly when it comes to politics. Under Governor George Bush more people were executed in Texas than any other state, yet he ran as a pro-life candidate.
And what is wrong with putting people to death for committing heinous crimes? Ecclesiastes
[11] Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
Rom.13
[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
[5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
[6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
[7] Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.-
Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/29/2008 12:38:06 PM
I am still waiting for some stance from our current administration that truly promotes viable options to abortion. I am afraid neither Senator McCain nor Senator Obama offer much in the area of promoting options to abortion. What I do see is that one candidate offers us a more inclusive choice towards supporting all aspects of what pro-life means to Catholics.
You have got to be kidding me right? What is a viable option to abortion? Unbelievable! Why don???t you read the scriptures to find out what is the other option than death???. A normal person doesn???t even need to read the scriptures to know this???. It is LIFE! You are claiming to speak for Catholics and haven???t even got a clue to what your God says in scriptures! Let me help you???.
Deut.30
[19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
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Posted By: Blair Thennacle @ 12/15/2008 5:26:37 AM
Rigidly, expressly and dogmatically forbidding abortion under any circumstances is giving women "a real choice"?!
Does nobody in America realise that the rest of the world has moved on from this moronic debate? Long live Roe v Wade.
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Posted By: THE RAVEN @ 10/31/2008 2:31:05 PM
Whta's all the fuss about? It is, or should be, the right of the individual to choose to have the baby, or to abort it. See--and God has nothing to do with it.
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Posted By: sensiblejoe @ 10/29/2008 12:44:32 AM
Christianity is about grace, not law. That's why it has no impact through politicking and political power: only prayer, persuasion and personal example work there. If Christians want to make an impact on society, they need to start acting more Christlike and obeying his Gospel, which tells them to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, house the homeless, care for the sick and visit the jailed, out of their own pocket (Matthew 25:31-46). But how many bother with that?
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Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/29/2008 12:14:04 PM
Salvation is about Grace, Christianity is about being Christ like (following his teachings) and fundamental principles laid down by his disciples. Even the forerunner for Christ (John the baptizer) spoke out against immoral practices committed by Herod. You have half of the truth when you state we are to do all of these things and not to speak out against the evil that we see.
So if you are going to be persecuted are you going to be persecuted because you pray or because you speak out? Or did all of the prophets get killed holding their peace against injustice within the government? I guess Moses should have prayed instead of telling Pharaoh to let the children of God go! Your passive approach to changing society is to be used when the time calls for it but don???t forget that many Christians have died in order to stop injustice in the society that didn???t hold their views. Maybe you should read
Hebrews 11
[32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
[33] Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
[34] Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
[35] Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
[36] And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
[37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
[38] (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.-
Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/29/2008 12:15:48 PM
Matt.5
[10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[11] Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
[12] Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
[13] Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
[14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
[15] Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
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Posted By: marce @ 10/22/2008 11:51:27 AM
I am saddened when I see Catholics acting like right-wing Evangelicals. As a Catholic member of the religious left, I think "pro-life" ought to mean what Jesus meant: peace and social justice, in the form of an equal chance at life for both rich and poor. Forget about abortion; the right isn't "pro-life," they're simply anti-abortion. Let's take back that language. If you're going to worry about unborn babies but kill innocent Iraqi civilians, deny Americans equal access to health care, and support capital punishment .... sorry, but I don't think Jesus would go there, and neither can I.
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Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/22/2008 1:19:37 PM
I forgot to include capital punishment.... so you think that Jesus doesn't support it.... you are deceived.... and are not looking at the Jesus of the bible but a fantasy person created in your mind.... think not that Jesus will not cast people into everlasting punishment...
Matt.25
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.-
Posted By: MDDave @ 10/22/2008 6:21:15 PM
Captial punishment is still open to some debate in the Christian community, since the government wields the sword and is ordained to be a terror to those who do evil. Far different than the calling of the Church or individual believers. The question is, given the level of injustice and uncertainty under which capital punishment has been carried out, should it be an option in most cases.
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Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/29/2008 11:56:23 AM
No, capital punishment shouldn???t be an option, if one is found guilty of a heinous crime they should be executed without delay (10 years of appeals) and given 1 year to provide evidence of their innocence. As for those Christians or individuals who say that it is not in keeping with Christian standards ???. You have already pointed this out in reference to
Rom.13
[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
[5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
[6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
[7] Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Here is the problem with having it as an option???
Ecclesiastes
[11] Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
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Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/22/2008 1:13:01 PM
Before you speak for Jesus you should read the bible and know what he says about these little ones....
and about war
Matt.24
[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mark.13
[7] And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
Luke.21
[9] But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Matt.19
[13] Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
[14] But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Matt.18
[1] At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
[2] And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
[3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[4] Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
[5] And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
[7] Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
[8] Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
[9] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
[10] Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
[11] For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
[12] How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
[13] And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
[14] Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
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Posted By: Tomcatx6 @ 10/29/2008 9:48:33 AM
Amen Brother!
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Posted By: hrob27 @ 10/22/2008 10:14:53 AM
So the real question is this: if Weigel suggests with this article that Catholics should not support Obama because he is pro-choice, should the Catholic Church instead support a political party whose main candidate for President sings, "bomb, bomb, bomb, Iran"? How is it that this man cannot see the forest for the trees? War has caused more death and human suffering than abortion ever has or ever will. The Catholics who support Obama can obviously see this, as he has opposed the invasion of Iraq from the very start. This war has not only taken the lives of nearly 5,000 of our beloved troops, but has cost the Iraqis nearly 100,000 of their loved ones' lives. There are simply more pressing matters to be addressed right now. We need to end this war, and we need to repair our economy. As far as morality is concerned, the issue is not whether or not abortion is right or wrong, the issue is whether or not the federal government has the right to control a woman's womb. Clearly, it does not.
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Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/22/2008 12:59:31 PM
It seems that when it comes to abortion you say it isn't about morality and then when it comes to war you push morality..... either it is all about morality or it is not... your feeble numbers of death doesn't even compare to the war inside the womb that has been waged since 1973.... you say stop the war thus stopping the unjust killing.... yet this war started in 2003 some thirty years after Roe vs Wade and yet you haven't suggested that we start a war that has been going on since 1973 and has taken on more innocent casualties than all wars combined including WWI and WWII .... that is over 70 years of fighting that hasn't reached the level of deaths that abortion has reached....
WORLDWIDE
Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000
Where abortions occur:
83% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries and 17% occur in developed countries.
© Copyright 1996-2008, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (www.agi-usa.org)
UNITED STATES
Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700
See above to learn about the number of deaths that have occured from wars worldwide and learn...
When you try to say that we should stand up for the attrocities committed against countries around the world and yet we cannot even clean up our own back yard .... it is like over looking the forrest for one tree..... yes death in every since is a enemy to humankind and unnecessary death should be on top of everyone's agenda..... wars don't occur everyday ....abortions do!-
Posted By: hrob27 @ 10/22/2008 6:17:47 PM
Those "feeble numbers of death" refer to brave soldiers who gave their lives on the field of battle. Those "feeble numbers" refer to civilians who lost their innocent lives, caught up in the crossfire of those battles. They also include many mothers and women, some pregnant. Abortion is a sad choice, but it is up to the woman to make that choice, and you had better think twice when you attempt to belittle the horrors of war. It is a hell of a lot easier to fight the war of ideas than it is to fight an actual war. Just ask a veteran.
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Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/27/2008 11:44:18 AM
Before you get you panties in a bunch know what the word feeble mean. Feeble = 1 a: markedly lacking in strength b: indicating weakness2 a: deficient in qualities or resources that indicate vigor, authority, force, or efficiency b: INADEQUATE , INFERIOR. So your attempt to exalt war deaths over the sheer number of abortions is a FEEBLE attempt in my opinion to say that war is worse than abortion. It is in no way intended to belittle the deaths of our service members who have given the ultimate sacrifice for their country. Now you are saying that abortion is a war of ideas and insinuating that the casualties aren???t human lives that are being destroyed! I???m a veteran (24 years) in the Army and have seen what war can do and it still pails in comparison to looking in a bucket full of aborted children who all died being innocent. You cannot say that war killed all innocent people as you can say with abortion. Try looking into a garbage bin full of aborted humans and see if the annihilation of the innocent is not more horrifying than war itself. The sheer number of these useless deaths should overwhelm any decent human being concern about human life.
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Posted By: hrob27 @ 10/22/2008 6:09:42 PM
Ask anyone who has lost a loved one to war or ask a soldier who has been maimed for life about how "feeble" these numbers are, or better yet, try telling them that their efforts were "feeble." You talk about life. The numbers of those war statistics are the lives of soldiers and civilians lost in terrible battles. Unless you are willing to go fight, don't dare try to belittle the horrors of war for your crusade. It's a hell of lot easier to fight the war of ideas than it is to fight an actual war. Just ask a veteran.
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Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/27/2008 11:43:31 AM
Look at the above statement and then unwind your panties! If you haven???t notice this article is talking about ABORTION! Not war as you want to make it??? also a scripture comes to mind about how much of a hypocrite you are,
???Matt.7
[3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
You want to draw attention to the deaths of men in war and yet when someone points out a bigger death toll you insist on overlooking the numbers and calling attention to the mote in their eye while you have a big CROSS BEAM in your own eye. Quit being such a hypocrite when it comes to the loss of life and acknowledge the deaths of the unborn take top priority in the fight against useless deaths.
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Posted By: hrob27 @ 10/22/2008 3:41:09 PM
bojack27, you are taking this whole thing way out of proportion. First of all, if you are against abortion, then fine. But if you care so much about life, then you have to see that war is just as destructive, and in my view, even more destructive, than abortion. Also, you still fail to see that I am speaking about HUMAN loss, not monetary loss. In no comments that I have made here have I talked about how much money this is costing us as a nation to fight this war, even though it is true that the war effort has indeed put a major strain on our economy. Plus, you still don't understand the basic premise of the article, which is what I'm commenting on in the first place. The writer doesn't feel that those of the Catholic faith can consider Obama as a candidate to vote for because he is pro-choice. However, many people of many different faiths, including various forms of Christianity, are still supporting him due to their understanding that we need secular solutions for secular problems. In fact, it is the secular freedoms that we enjoy today that allow us both to express our opinions freely. You still have not answered my question. Have you been to the Middle East? Have you been to the battlefield known as Iraq? If so, you would know what I mean about the true cost of war, and anyone else who has been to war knows it too. Go over there, if you have not already been, and then you can try to lecture me and everybody else about religion. See how lack of tolerance, control over women, and relgious zeal has destroyed an ancient and beautiful land. By the way, religion, which you so vehemently defend, was once used to justify keeping black people in chains, and was also used to exterminate the native peoples of both North and South America. More lives have been taken in the name of God than in any other cause. When we were attacked on 9/11, were we attacked by atheists? No, we were attacked by religious nutcases who believed just as strongly in their faith as you do in yours. If you want to talk about murder, there's where you will find it. Crunch the numbers on how many have died in the name of God, and then ask yourself if you still believe that religion is the answer to all of our problems.
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Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/27/2008 10:53:19 AM
To take the destruction of life out of proportion! Well no I???m not taking this way to serious it is you who are winking at the destruction of human life who is not taking anything serious. If you are going to compare or even say that war is far more destructive than abortion just shows you don???t care about life. I gave you statistics showing the lost of life through abortion and war. Overwhelmingly it shows that the lost of life through abortion supersedes the lost of life through wars by over a 42 to .05 margin. Yet you still state your on unsubstantiated views on which is more destructive, it just shows me that you are probably looking at a monetary value rather than the most important value HUMAN LIFE.
Also, you still fail to see that I am speaking about HUMAN loss, not monetary loss. In no comments that I have made here have I talked about how much money this is costing us as a nation to fight this war, even though it is true that the war effort has indeed put a major strain on our economy. Plus, you still don't understand the basic premise of the article, which is what I'm commenting on in the first place. The writer doesn't feel that those of the Catholic faith can consider Obama as a candidate to vote for because he is pro-choice. However, many people of many different faiths, including various forms of Christianity, are still supporting him due to their understanding that we need secular solutions for secular problems. In fact, it is the secular freedoms that we enjoy today that allow us both to express our opinions freely.
Who said that this was a secular problem? You have high jacked this topic and made it secular when the whole article is based on faith / religious beliefs. The article in particular talks about catholic faith not other faiths who claim Christianity as their base. As far a secular view???. I guess when the declaration of independence said , ???We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness??? it was a secular and not religious view! NOT!
You still have not answered my question. Have you been to the Middle East? Have you been to the battlefield known as Iraq? If so, you would know what I mean about the true cost of war, and anyone else who has been to war knows it too. Go over there, if you have not already been, and then you can try to lecture me and everybody else about religion.
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Posted By: bojack27 @ 10/27/2008 10:59:13 AM
LOL???. Do I need to answer your question? Do I need to point out that many of my fellow soldiers, marines and airmen have re-enlisted to stay in this region and serve their country and its interest? Do I need to point out all of the good things that we do go unreported by the mainstream media? Do I need to point out that the destruction caused by insurgents against their own people has caused more destruction than any American lead attack in this region? Have you decide who is responsible for the death of the innocent in this region? Are all deaths of the innocent caused by U.S. military? How many VBIED, IED, EFP are set off by American service members? Was it Christianity that suppressed these people before we came to the country? Was it Christianity that used weapons of mass destruction on the Kurds?
See how lack of tolerance, control over women, and relgious zeal has destroyed an ancient and beautiful land. By the way, religion, which you so vehemently defend, was once used to justify keeping black people in chains, and was also used to exterminate the native peoples of both North and South America. More lives have been taken in the name of God than in any other cause. When we were attacked on 9/11, were we attacked by atheists? No, we were attacked by religious nutcases who believed just as strongly in their faith as you do in yours. If you want to talk about murder, there's where you will find it. Crunch the numbers on how many have died in the name of God, and then ask yourself if you still believe that religion is the answer to all of our problems.
Religion is not that answer to all of our problems! God is definitely the answer to every problem that we face today. If you would read the bible and get an understanding of what is truly going on in the world today then nothing would surprise you. As far as these so called religious nutcases you mentioned ???. If you would know about their teachings in the Koran then you know that this is what they believe and for them to carry out this is within their teachings. Now look at Christianity and you will know what should be carried out and what is not.
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Posted By: Abots22 @ 10/22/2008 3:56:23 PM
Your arguement about comparing war to abortion is so wrong on so many different levels. Yes, there is a greater loss in life in both instances, but ask yourself what good to society does an abortion provide? When we (America) decided to drop the bombs on Japan it was to prevent an even greater loss of lives. You will find throughout history that this is the overwhelming reason that wars began.
Also, I'll speak for myself as a Christian, but I also believe that most people of real faith do not believe there are "secular" issues. All issues are to be given to God to be handled in a Godly way. So, I think you'll find that your arguement for secular solutions won't stand up to most, if not all people of faith, especially Christians.-
Posted By: hrob27 @ 10/22/2008 4:58:32 PM
Regardless of how you feel, there IS such a thing as the secular world, and you live in it. Get used to it. I say this as a Christian man. Also, you don't seem to understand the point I'm making. Yes, abortion is a sad choice, but it is a woman's choice to make, period. When I speak of war, I speak of the long term effects. There are babies born in Japan to this day with horrible birth defects because of the lingering radiation. Does that mean that we were wrong to drop the bomb? No, but this is the true and terrible cost of war. It should be used as a last resort, not a constant solution or remedy. What I'm saying is that those who have such a problem with abortion as a loss of life issue should feel ten times as bad when it comes to the issue of war. When a woman chooses to abort a pregnancy, she must live with the decision she has made as an individual. Now whether she should feel bad or not is not for me as a man to say. Whether her decision is immoral, is also not for me to say. As a Christian, I try not to judge others for their personal decisions. No matter what, the decision is made on an individual level. When wars are fought, even if there are not as many actual casualties, the effects are far worse. Entire civilizations and cultures are destroyed, and people can be hunted damn near to extinction. If there is a moral imperative to be followed, then stop the wars first and let's have peace. Maybe then we can decide on the abortion issue. No matter what, the reproductive rights of a woman will have to be protected.
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Posted By: Abots22 @ 10/22/2008 6:15:35 PM
Judgement and condonement are 2 entirely different things. I do not judge anyone, that is for God to do. However, I cannot condone actions that go against my (and many others) interpretation of the Bible.
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Posted By: hrob27 @ 10/22/2008 6:28:13 PM
Does this also include war? If you believe in life as you claim that you do (and I will take you at your word), then the horrors of war should be more than apparent. You talk of barbarism against infants. There are religious fanatics in the Middle East who have bombed schools filled with toddlers and small children in the name of God. Now no one would say that God condones such things. But the fools who commit these acts DO believe this. I have seen these things with my own eyes. I do not take away from anyone's experiences, but I will not agree with anyone who really thinks that abortion, sad as it is, is worse than war. If you believe in life, if anyone here on this blog truly loves life, then I implore you all to stop the wars first. There is nothing more barbaric than war.
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Posted By: reisbergsgal @ 10/22/2008 4:59:13 PM
Why do you (and many, many other religious people) believe that because you believe in God, you have the right to control my life? Isn't that what America is about? FREEDOM????? Very rarely do we go to war JUST for the sake of saving lives-- there is always a side agenda-- always. It's a shame that you can't see that and that so many lives have been lost for greedy politicians-- not for our freedom.
But, back to abortion and YOU trying to tell ME what to do with my life-- you obviously cannot see how bigoted you are. The control that all of these religious freaks are trying to put over us is just as bad as the oppression that is happening in third world countries. Why can't you see and understand that? Also, you asked what good to society does abortion provide-- abortion provides an exit strategy for a woman who has been raped and impregnated by her father; it will help the 16 year old teenager WHO'S RELIGIOUS PARENTS REFUSED TO TEACH ABOUT BIRTH CONTROL; it will help the woman who is in an abusive relationship and decides that she does not want a permanent attachment to the man that beats her nightly; IT SAVES LIVES!!! Also, what you religious freaks never understand is that NO ONE WANTS TO HAVE AN ABORTION! Women don't go around using this as a form of steady birth control! It's a hard decision to make, and the woman should be left alone and able to make it herself without some ignorant fool trying to dictate what's going to happen to her body.
I guess that you've never made any mistakes and you don't need any opportunity to "un-do" anything. God must really love you since he/she gives you the right to tell others what to do in his/her name... it's awesome playing God, isn't it?-
Posted By: Abots22 @ 10/22/2008 6:12:22 PM
I simply do not understand the analogy between disallowing abortion and 3rd world oppression. I've never experienced 3rd world oppression (thankfully) and clearly you haven't either. Your point is completley lost on me with that comparision.
You seem to think that because I am a "religous freak" that I won't teach my daughter and son about birth control and the ways of the fallen world we live in. You are wrong about that assumption for me and many of the God fearing people I know.
You bring up a decent point in regard to insest and rape, a distinction I failed to make in my earlier post. All I can say it I would consult with God if that were the case with my daughter. However, at the rate of 1.1 MILLION abortions a year I simply believe that abortions are WAY too accessable. Since Roe vs Wade, enough abortions have taken place to populate the entire state of California (largest in America), or Texas and New York (2nd and 3rd largest), or that same number would populate 23 of the smallest states in America. That breaks my heart. An entire generation of people have been wiped out.
For a country supposedly as civilized as this one, the accepted technique of sticking a metal rod into the skull of a completely healthy baby and scambling its brains until dead is downright barbaric. There simply is no other way to put it.
Lastly, you seem to think that people like me turn to God and Jesus Christ because our lives are perfect and life is good. I can tell you it is quite the opposite, but that is an entirely different discussion. Expressing ones opinion and voting in accordance is hardly playing God.
It sounds like you've had some bad experiences with religion. I can tell you first hand there is nothing more satisfying than reading and studying the Bible and understanding what God says about you. It helps to understand this question and man, many more.
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Posted By: Nowforthetruth @ 10/25/2008 8:31:34 PM
Obama in this video is campaigning at a convention of Acorn and I believe two other Community Activist's organizations. Ask if he will be their ally if he becomes President and pledge to meet with leaders of Acorn and the others present at the convention in his first year, Obama says, quote:
"Yes, but let me say that before I even get inaugurated, during the transition, we are going to be calling all of you in to help us shape the agenda."
See and hear it for yourself. Obama has promised that Acorn and other groups like it will a part of his transition and setting his agenda if elected:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJcVgJhNaU
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Posted By: chrisjfay @ 10/23/2008 3:48:34 PM
By person do you mean fetus?
We would have so many more problems than that if abortion was legal. Find me support against abortion in the Constitution. Moral issues are quite sensative, but this is a political matter-
Posted By: oceandreams52 @ 10/25/2008 7:14:06 PM
Chrisjfay: find me support for abortion in the Constitution for abortion . There isn't any.
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Posted By: mitya @ 10/23/2008 3:54:21 PM
Chrisifjay:
Read the principles that this country was founded on:
Jefferson's self-evident truths: the right to LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.
If you are developing in your mother's womb and are scraped out and thrown in the trash a few months before you get to take your first breath, I would say you were denied your right to life, your liberty is non-existent, and you don't even have the chance to know what happiness is.
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Posted By: Wetzelfam @ 10/23/2008 4:17:36 PM
Catholics believe that God created the earth and every living thing on it. God, in creating living things, also created forms of reproduction that are extremely wasteful. Human reproduction is no exception. God terminates 1 in 5 pregnancies through miscarriage. If, as Mr. Weigel states, the Catholic Church has "moral logic" in any of its teachings, then it must be in favor of abortion.
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Posted By: RandyHiggins @ 10/23/2008 5:16:51 PM
You equate your own estimation of wastefulness with God's wisdom in creation. Creation is damaged by sin, to claim that all things are as they should be is clearly wrong. Spontaneous abortions are something like lions eating gazelles. We cherish both lions and gazelles, yet we understand the relationship between them. We live in a systematic universe that has balance and corrections at key points. yet this is an imperfect world. For you to state that every pregnancy must be successful is not consistent with all that we know about God and his Creation.
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Posted By: Wetzelfam @ 10/24/2008 7:02:20 PM
OK, Randy, we are in adamant agreement. Humans should not question God's wisdom and expect all pregnancies to be successful. Spontaneous abortions are part of God's wisdom; they provide balance and corrections at key points in creation. Once again, by logical deduction, the Catholic church should support abortion.
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Posted By: oceandreams52 @ 10/25/2008 7:09:02 PM
Are you serious, Wetzelfam? The Catholic church should support abortion because because there are spontaneous abortions? Wow, that is a tremendous leap. A = B, and C sometimes happens, so A = C? I am going to assume you are being sarcastic, though why anyone would be sarcastic and not serious in this election year, on any topic that affects life (Abortion, capital punishment, war, terrorism, torture, funding to help people and cities recover from natural disasters,) is beyond me.
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Posted By: ThePrairiePrankster @ 10/24/2008 1:34:14 PM
Religion is an abomination. It warps the mind. Just ask all those molested by the Catholic priests how great the Catholic church is? A real fine bunch, hiding behind their religion and exploiting innocent youths.
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Posted By: RandyHiggins @ 10/25/2008 12:56:52 AM
What is Bill Ayers hiding behind? Anarchism, Marxism? What have all the Communist Youth who have been abused around the world, killed in wars, and starved for Lenin, Mao, Kim, and the Junta been exploited by?
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Posted By: kml7 @ 10/24/2008 4:43:25 PM
my dear dcg681,
I believe it is your post that is a bit silly. are you suggesting that just because Obama wants to de-regulate abortion, no one will worry about becoming pregnant anymore? Also, to any pro-lifers: voting for McCain in all likelihood won't change the current status quo...there will never be enough support in this secularized nation of ours to overturn Roe v Wade, so you really needn't get your panties in a bunch.
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Posted By: Nowforthetruth @ 10/24/2008 1:20:32 AM
Speking of flawed thinking, try some of Obama's and his fellow Democrats. Spread the wealth how.? Look at his past. Obama in this video, addressing his work with ACORN litigation against the banks and relating to the Community Reinvestment Act and the failure of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, as they relate to the current real estate and financial crisis, states that, and I quote:
"Subprime lending started out as a good idea, helping Americans buy homes who previously could not afford to. Financial institutions created new financial instruments that could securitize these loans, slice them into finer and finer risk categories, and spread them out among investors and around the country, as well as around the world. In theory, this should have allowed mortgage lending to be less risky, and more diversified."
"The original idea was a good one, which was, lets see if we can distribute risk more broadly, and make it easier to provide loans to people who otherwise might not be able to get one."
Listen for yourself. You cannot dispute the mans on words recorded live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr1M1T2Y314&feature=related
Obama in this second video is campaigning at a convention of Acorn and I believe two other ???Community Activist's organizations. Ask if he will be their ally if he becomes President, Obama says, quote:
"Yes, but let me say that before I even get inaugurated, during the transition we are going to be calling all of you in to help us shape the agenda."
See and hear it for yourself. Obama promised that Acorn and other groups like it will setting his agenda if elected:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJcVgJhNaU
Below is a link to C-SPAN video clips of the Congressional hearings at roughly the time McCains attempt at S.190. to fix Fannie and Freddie. See for yourself who said what.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs
See also
http://www.newsweek.com/id/164732 from this web site. (oops!) stating that Freddie Mac was spending tax payer money to target Republicans in 2005 who were trying to regulate Fannie and Freddies fraud. Democrats were not targeted, as the were all in the tank with Fannie and Freddie to kill the regulations. Hear that, the article admits that Republicans were trying to regulate Freddie and Fannie, and Democrats were trying to stop it from happening as a means to facilitate the Community Reinvestment Act.
See also: http://www.newsweek.com/id/164972
Stating that Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act wasn't what caused the meltdown, and noting that "economists on both sides of the political spectrum have suggested that the act has probably made the crisis less severe than it might otherwise have been."
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Posted By: thundercycle @ 10/23/2008 6:47:07 PM
Making abortion illegal is not the best or only way to stop it. Has making drugs illegal worked? These societal problems run deeper than that and require societal changes???not new legal decisions.
Moreover, if people really cared about this holocaust, they would be working to eliminate unwanted pregnancies.
Voting for a president soley because they MAY be in a position to possibly appoint a justice who MAY cast a decisive vote to overturn a decision IF the court decides to reconsider it is misguided to say the least.
Meanwhile, this ???Christian??? America is torturing people and waging irresponsible wars of choice. Virtually every other position of the Catholic Church from the death penalty to war to social justice dovetails more fully with the Democratic ticket than the Republican.
But the Catholics I know are hippocrits who support the death penalty and who have bought wholesale into the culture war the parties are trying to wage. With the single issue of abortion, the right has many of us in a do or die situation, similar to blackmail.
Catholics need to wake up and stop allowing themselves to be exploited by the GOP. Voting for Obama does not mean supporting abortion rights any more than voting for Bush in 04 meant supporting torturing people.
You???re being used, people.-
Posted By: 40days40nights @ 10/24/2008 12:40:12 AM
Comment: Has making drugs illegal worked? Yes, largely, by substantially discouraging their use and detriment. The illegality of drugs is far more helpful than harmful.
People really do care and are working to eliminate unwanted pregnancies. Catholic Charities does enormous goods. And interestingly, even the McCains, who are not saints, have adopted a child. Likewise, the Palins are great pro-life role models.
The next president will likely appoint two more SC Judges. McCain is not totally reliable, as Souter was not. But there is no doubt or comparison with Obama???s intentions. McCain has a pretty stellar pro-life record; it is Obama who is deeply supportive of the evil of abortion.
Abu Graib and Club Gitmo are regrettable, but torture is overwhelmingly the exception. Our Armed Forces are unique in having liberated literally millions from torture. It is something to be proud of. I give Bush a lot of credit for no repeat of Sept 11th, but not for torture. However, Obama and Dem leaders mostly like to pretend Sept. 11th didn't happen. I like how frmr Pres. Clinton wished aloud that if only Sept 11th had happened on his watch. The U.S response would have been largely the same, so don???t be deluded this is a Republican response. Obama opposes it so he can be elected. Talk about using people. He deludes people on the topic, or attracts the deluded who think our enemies are nice people and it's all just a misunderstanding. Obama knows he won't be able to pull troops out on a timetable. And if he does, we'll be right back there. Regardless, McCain has strongly opposed Bush on torture, has been quite outspoken about it, and more credible than Obama on it.
You???re also wrong about Democrats and so called social justice. Dems are not about Liberty and self-reliance. Instead of actually solving minority dilemmas, they're about fostering victimhood and dependency, based on bigger governments that really benefit Democrat politicians. They grab people's money and waste it, like on public schools that continue to horrendously fail. They shamelessly appeal to African Americans, but what have they really done for them? Thank Republicans for the end of Slavery, and Clarence Thomas, Condi Rice, Colon Powell and etc. if you really see the world based on skin color. And realize that Johnson's great society has been mostly colossal failure. Welfare has been the closest thing to slavery.
Read Gulag Archipelago if you want to learn more about socialism and communism, and the joys of torture. Obama comes out of a Harvard leftist elite that largely sympathizes with the ideas of Bill Ayers and Karl Marx and leads to slavery. At least Capitalsim rewards human freedom, dignity, and ingenuity. It allows people to willingly be responsible and charitable. These are values of the Church. And by the way, research shows that Republicans give substantially more of a percentage to charity than Democrats. Joe Biden is a dramatic case in point on this.
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Posted By: Geon Lee @ 10/23/2008 1:10:04 PM
Without the RIGHT TO LIFE, EVERYTHING ELSE such as freedom, education, money and all other goods IS MEANGLESS.
Think, If we had been aborted, what would be THE USE OF ALL THOSE GOODS? Therefore, the pope and the Catholic bishops EMPHASIZE the FUNDAMENTAL NATURE OF LIFE ISSUE. Bishops clearly stress that ABORTION IS THE OVERRIDING ISSUE (NOT ONE of MANY ISSUES).
Catholics who DO NOT LISTEN to the TEACHING OF THE CHURCH taught by pope and bishops in UNION with the pope is REJECTING JESUS, because Jesus said to HIS DISCIPLES: Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever REJECTS YOU REJECTS ME (Luke 10:16).-
Posted By: forte88 @ 10/23/2008 2:26:15 PM
What if you weren't aborted, and you were born addicted to crack and was raised in an incest setting, or perhaps put in a dumpster after being born? Peronsally, I would have rather they aborted me in this case. Not everybody's life is a Normal Rockwell painting.
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Posted By: RandyHiggins @ 10/23/2008 2:55:52 PM
My father was a drug addict, abusive, and mentally ill. I didn't like the consequences for me and I still don't. Why did I have to deal with all that? I am now in control of my life (to some extent) and I find each day an opportunity to be a friend to someone. I try to do something for those who suffer. Even if I am incapacitated in the future, I will receive each day as a gift. God giveth, God taketh, blessed be the Name of the Lord.
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Posted By: 40days40nights @ 10/23/2008 10:58:55 PM
Randy H: That's a pretty powerful thought and statement.
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Posted By: mitya @ 10/23/2008 3:19:42 PM
But ultimately your proposition denies free will to the individual (the infant in this case). Your scenario is a horrible one (and far outside the normal abortion that is done out of convenience rather than dire circumstances). But even in your scenario, at least the infant is given a chance. Dumpster babies are found. Grown adults who were crack babies exist today that lead normal lives. In any case, what's the difference between being scraped out of your mother to be thrown in the trash or thrown in the trash after birth? At least the dumpster baby has a chance of survival.
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Posted By: forte88 @ 10/23/2008 5:31:03 PM
Or the dumpster baby dies a horrible death from exposure. The fact of the matter is, that there are unwanted pregnancies. People will have abortions if it's legal or not. The deterrant of making it illegal will only cause undue suffering of babies, and or mothers. Nobody is pro-abortion. NOBODY! But we live in a society that demands a choice for unwanted pregnancies for the wellbeing of everyone, no matter what your views are. If you are against having a choice, practice that, and influence your family to practice this. Don't impose your views on others who have a differant philosophy.
You keep claiming that there are so my abortions performed out of convenience. How inconvenient would it be to be a baby that is born to a parent that did not want them, nor the means to take care of them? If you want all these babies to be born, you better step up to the plate to make sure those kids are taken care of somehow by starting to vote for officials that are pro social programs. I don't see this happening from your typical right to life voter.-
Posted By: 40days40nights @ 10/23/2008 10:27:52 PM
You're kidding yourself if you think no one wants abortions. Most people who choose them do so to enable their irresponsiblity both before and after the pregnancy. You're also kidding yourself if you think there's not an abortion industry that promotes irresponsible sex and benefits greatly financially from the prodedures.
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Posted By: mitya @ 10/23/2008 3:24:47 PM
Your proposed scenarios (which undoubtedly do happen) are horrible ones, but they are far outside the reality of the average abortion - that is, an abortion done out of convenience; an action taken to keep life neat and tidy and resolve your actions of any unwanted consequences. Ulitmately, though, the question here is about the free will of an individual. It is not up to a mother to decide that her infant's life is not worth living. Dumpster babies have been found alive and have survived. Adults who were born crack babies are living today who live normal lives. I am sure their lives have been hard, but the very fact that they haven't committed suicide shows that they would rather live through a life of hardship rather than not have one at all.
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Posted By: Healed @ 10/23/2008 10:51:23 PM
There are so many lies concerning what Obama believes so IF a person REALLY wants to know what Obama believes, go to factcheck.org as they sort through lies especially abortion. For those that's believeing lies and spreading the lies, it is because they want to remain unlearned and do not want the TRUTH!
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Posted By: chrisjfay @ 10/23/2008 4:34:39 PM
Well thats a quite radical view.
god punished us by making the weather bad is just as bad as saying god is on our side of the Iraq war. And 9/11 had little to do with Christians. It had to do with radicals from SA who were against US occupation of Israel. If they wanted to attack Christianity they would blow up Churches, not government buildings and US landmarks.-
Posted By: Healed @ 10/23/2008 10:48:20 PM
If YOU KNOW Jesus, you would know that Jesus was radical so being radical for Christ is not a bad thing. No, God is not on our side of the Iraq war because we entered that war on a lie and God is not in sin. YOU are wrong, the terrorists could not harm America UNLESS God sent it or allowed it as NOTHING happens without God giving his authority to do so. Terrorists have been trying to destroy us for centuries but in 9-11 God pushed back the angels to send us a message just as He is doing so with the weather, the financial crisis etc. In the Bible, God used the weather, animals and yes, Israel???s own enemies to send a message or to nearly destroy Israel so it is not unbelievable that God is and will do so NOW! What you do not understand that through 9-11 and the weather, God is sending a message to the world but mostly AMERICA whether you are Christians or not because the good has to suffer for the bad. You are looking at this in the natural BUT you have to look further and see it in the Spirit which MANY cannot do because they are not of God. Look beyond the act and see GOD! The messages that He is sending!
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Posted By: easyduzit@hotmail.com @ 10/23/2008 12:00:52 PM
I just find it amazing that the Catholic Church and it's adherents condemn, rightly I believe, abortion, yet equally condemn birth control and sex education. These two are to my mind two of the best ways to prevent placing a young woman in a position of having to choose an abortion or an unwanted pregnancy.
Abstinance teachings, though a commendable idea, does not stop premarital sex. Just ask Sarah Palin's daughter. The drive in humans is just too strong for most to resist no matter what their moral upbringing. It is unfair to place young people in that position because of overly rigid moral teachings.
If you are truly pro-life, I find it unconscionable for you to be anti-contraception!-
Posted By: 40days40nights @ 10/23/2008 10:41:36 PM
Think about it - promoting contraception and so called sex ed merely promotes irresponsible sex, and therefore more unintended unwanted preganancies. That's pretty simple to understand. Because the first lesson you're teaching them is a cynical one, that people can't control themselves, and that therefore you expect them to have irresponsible sex outside marriage. That's cynical, but passes for wisdom in this stupid age. It is the responsibility of parents to teach their children, when each is ready, about the beauty and sacredness and natural consequence of sex. Many family's succeed at this. Blessed are those that try. To fail is human. But to not try is pathetic, and promotes the me first pleasure culture that deceives people out of true happiness.
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Posted By: dcg681 @ 10/23/2008 10:35:38 PM
Dear thundercycle,
Your post is quite silly. Obama a "moderate"? Yeah, right! Obama "intersted in working to reduce teenage pregnancy ... which would reduce abortion"? If so, he has a strange way of showing it: He has promised that his first act as president would be to sign into law the "Freedom of Choice Act," which would overturn practically EVERY piece of pro-life legislation in all 50 states, wipe out even the most minor restrictions on abortion, overturn parental-notification laws and partial-birth abortion bans voted in by the people, take away "conscience clauses" that permit pro-life doctors to opt-out of personally performing abortions, and force Americans to fund abortion through their federal tax dollars. How, I ask, does a person reduce the frequency of something by removing all restrictions placed on it and increasing funding for it? Are you making a serious argument or is your comment a brilliant parody of the sort of illogic that so many Obama apologists are spreading this election cycle?
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