The Silent Issue

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  • Posted By: Javier Castellon @ 11/04/2008 10:14:32 AM

    Setting aside partial-birth abortion, Obama does not even oppose live-birth abortion, a process whereby the doctor medically induces labor by inserting medication into the birth canal near the cervix causing the cervix to be stimulated and open early. When this occurs, the small second or third trimester pre-term, fully formed baby falls out of the uterus, sometimes alive. It is then not killed but, rather, set aside and "left to die," which can take as long as eight hours. Make no mistake, this is a baby - in one particular reported incident, 1/2 pound and 10 inches long - bigger than a hamster, bigger than some other fully-grown species in the animal world. This is not just urban myth, it is fully documented in senate hearings - Hearing on H.R.4292, The "Born-Alive Infant Protection Act of 2000." Obama opposed this act that would protect infants that survive an abortion. It's not a secret, it's not sensationalism... it's the truth. How far are we going to go? With every choice to support abortion or to choose not to do anything, we go further and further down the slippery slope. Where will it end? Will our consciences be so numb at some point that is seems logical to kill a child if we no longer want it?

    And, if live-birth abortion is okay, why do we have laws that prosecute women who give birth and then promptly throw their unwanted newborn into a trash can? What's the difference? Where's the logic?

    • Posted By: Nick_G @ 11/04/2008 12:35:43 PM

      While your facts are mostly true you???re missing a few key facts - the three bills you are speaking about lost, one of the bills McCain and Obama voted the same way.

      No one in their right mind would support partial birth abortions or late term abortions. I have not met a single Pro-Choice that would. But if you sign a bill that flat out states 'No partial birth abortions under any reason' then you just created a major problem.

      Did you know that the majority, 90% if not higher, of all partial birth abortions or late term is due to the Mother's health? In most of these cases, statistically wise, the baby stands virtually zero chance of survival if the mother dies at this stage of development. Doctors force the undeveloped fetus out of the body in able to stop internal bleeding or any number of other issues which would KILL the mother if not treated.

      So yes, this is not a nice procedure, but doctors aren't doing it wily nilly for people who just want it gone; they're doing it for the life of the Mother. If you signed a bill that said 'No Partial/Late term abortion' without a clause to the Mothers health, then Doctors would be caught in a legal conundrum: Abort the baby, saving the mother (You've committed murder, jail time, loose license) or don't abort the baby, they both die (You've broken your oath, you are opened to being sued, you loose your license).

      It???s a stupid reason not to vote for someone. Quite frankly I???m more likely to vote for Obama for the simple fact he voted with his head instead of pandering to the Religious vote.

  • Posted By: Skallywag @ 11/04/2008 12:09:12 PM

    When will you all realize that the government has no authority or jurisdiction over your bodies. Regardless of your religious or moral beliefs - No government has the athority to outlaw abortion, whether we like it or not. To do so would set a very dangerous precident.. You then step into the realm of should you be forced to get tubes tied or a vasectomy because your family may have a "bad" gene? Or should you be allowed to undergo radiation therapy for cancer vice an alternative treatment? When the government gets involved in these very personal issues, it is invading our privacy and our privacy is guaranteed by the constitution. We may be against abortion, but it is moraly and ethically reprehensible to force our views on other people, even worse to make laws outlawing a thing just because we don't believe in it. The best we can do is teach our children the difference between right and wrong and hope they learn well. If you believe for or against it, don't try to force your views uopn other people - its just as bad as abortion.

    • Posted By: KJC03 @ 11/04/2008 12:16:10 PM

      Actually, the government does have authority over our bodies. We are required by law to wear seatbelts in moving cars. It's illegal to assault people with our bodies. It's illegal to take prescription drugs without a prescription. It's illegal for us to move our bodies into someone else's home and take it over. Sorry, but the government is in the business of telling us what we are allowed to do with our bodies. The government has always governed morality.

      • Posted By: Skallywag @ 11/04/2008 12:35:41 PM

        It is not illegal to get you tubes tied voluntarily or to refuse to do so if recommended. It is not illegal to choose one course of treatment for an illness over another. These are the kinds of issues the government would be delving into, rather than regulating things that help us maintain the safety of our bodies.. The government does not regulate your bodies directly, rather it regulates those things that may help or harm us to a certain extent. It is quite a stretch to say the government regulates our bodies the way you imply.

  • Posted By: readre @ 11/04/2008 12:35:19 PM

    Hey floridacadman - I think you might be wrong that I'm the only person on the planet who believes an 18-year-old is old enough to make a life-or-death decision. The pro-choice side believes a 13-year-old girl is old enough to make the life-or-death decision regarding abortion.

  • Posted By: Bari 1986 @ 11/04/2008 12:11:50 PM

    God (yes I said it) GOD has given each of us an internal mechanism called a conscience. We are to be guided by this and hopefully make the correct decisions, not just for us but for those around us. Doing what is right isn't always easy with the constant pressures of day to day life. It's funny, but the newsbroadcasts and some others with media clout would have you believe that no one cares about moral issues anymore.
    I'm so glad they are wrong! GOD BLESS AMERICA!

    • Posted By: tyco @ 11/04/2008 12:33:22 PM

      I'm glad you brought God up. God himself says "CHOOSE Life" God himself gives US the option to make the choice! God does not say let your government choose for you. If God himself is giving me the option to make the right or wrong choice, who are any of you to choose for me?! As Christians we have to allow people to make the choices (right or wrong) for themselves, even if we deeply disagree. It's the premise of our faith. Jesus knocks on the door, we are to invite him in, choose him. He does not force himself into our lives. This is not opinion, it's scripture.

    • Posted By: Old Joe @ 11/04/2008 12:28:26 PM

      "media clout would have you believe that no one cares about moral issues anymore"... Care to give some examples?

    • Posted By: Skallywag @ 11/04/2008 12:25:35 PM

      GOD isn't an American, it is best to say God bless the world.

  • Posted By: lorstar @ 11/04/2008 10:12:19 AM

    Could one of you "pro-lifers" please explain to me the EXACT reason that you believe this should be a matter for the government? Please, without going into "life begins at..." and the death penalty, and the war, and all of the other reasons why you personally don't believe in it. I absolutely believe the choice is between me and my God. Please tell me logically and realistically why it should be between me and the government.

    • Posted By: craigsmith216 @ 11/04/2008 10:30:47 AM

      Sure. It's simple. We make laws all the time that "legislate morality." Since we are willing to legislate the proper way to cross a street, it certainly makes sense that we should forbid the murder of infants. Does this question actually vex you, or are you just pretending to not understand our view?
      You are certainly entitled to differ with us about whether or not abortion constitutes clinical infanticide, but you are the one who did not want to talk about issues of when life began.
      A further point--if you do want to broach the topic of when life begins, I lay the following challenge at your feet:
      If you are convinced that life begins at conception, then you are almost certainly pro-life (there might be someone out there who affirms the former but is still pro-life, but they are truly a rare and statistically insignificant specie). If you are unsure about whether or not life begins at conception, one would still figure that a moral person would be pro-life, in that the issue is literally one of life or death. Thus, in the pro-lifers view, the only person who can be logically consistent and maintain any semblance of moral worth while holding the pro-choice position has to be absolutely convinced on both scientific and ethical grounds that life does not begin at conception. Do you have such a conviction? Do you have proof for it? If you do, you should publish it and save us poor beknighted pro-lifers from the folly of our ways. If you don't I can only infer that your life must suffer from a paucity of intellectual reflection and/or extreme moral terpitude.
      Anyway, that's our EXACT reason. What are yours?

      • Posted By: lorstar @ 11/04/2008 11:00:07 AM

        Wow. I wasn't being snide and yet, that's what I got in return. I was honestly trying to hear/learn/comprehend someone else's point of view. I won't get into one of those contests with you. But I will tell you that had I had the choice and still chose adoption. And that is more my passion than the rest of this argument. So thanks for "enlightening" me... and for using such a broad brush to paint me with.

        • Posted By: craigsmith216 @ 11/04/2008 12:30:29 PM

          You're completely right, and I apologize. I conflated your comment with several others on this site and took your statement about the "exact" rationale for the pro-life position and the quotes around pro-life at a much more derogatory level than you intended them. That error was 100% mine. I commend you for your choice, and apologize again for my misplaced snideness.

    • Posted By: microgeek @ 11/04/2008 10:53:45 AM

      Governments should protect its citizen's rights.
      Who gets those rights?
      Some say "all human beings". Some say all "born" human beings. Some say 3 year olds.
      Well, which is it? The problem is that we've codified that some human beings are born only at the pleasure of their mothers - some human beings are not protected unless the mother herself deems them worthy of protection.
      Some do not believe this is right - that it allows for coercion of women, and thus protecting the right to life of the unborn human is paramount to also protecting the woman.
      Some do not believe that protecting the unborn human has anything to do with protecting women.

      So, who gets the rights? Who gets the protection of the law? That is the question at hand.

      • Posted By: lorstar @ 11/04/2008 11:04:54 AM

        Thanks so much for your response. I understand and appreciate.

    • Posted By: KJC03 @ 11/04/2008 10:15:43 AM

      I don't understand why it makes pro-choicers so angry.
      All of our laws govern morality so that we don't hurt each other--laws agains murder, theft, violence, rape, etc. Pro-lifers just believe that even the unborn are citizens who deserve protection. Why is that such a bad thing?

      • Posted By: lorstar @ 11/04/2008 10:17:40 AM

        Not saying it's a bad thing at all. Again, just want a clear cut answer why it should be left to the government to decide.

        • Posted By: KJC03 @ 11/04/2008 10:27:02 AM

          We have laws--mandated by the government--that prohibit crimes against human beings. Pro-lifers believe that unborn babies are human beings, so making it legal to kill unborn babies contradicts our murder laws. A matter of opinion, maybe, but luckily we're all entitled to our opinions in this country--for now.

  • Posted By: rosary4life @ 11/04/2008 12:26:51 PM

    it has nothing to do with taxes. it has to do with the sanctity of life. if the child is truely unwanted or unable to be cared for by it's natural parents/family. Then ADOPTION is the option. It isn't so taboo as it once was and as a birthmother myself, I know it works for all parties. Especially the child.

  • Posted By: Atone @ 11/04/2008 12:03:18 PM

    Why does the Christian agenda for the sanctity of life begin and end with abortion? Why must a Christian be unrelenting about a fetus' life, but not have to weigh in on the senseless killing of war? And animal life? Most Christians I know will never give up their hunting rifles and take great pleasure in killing animals for sport. Shouldn't all life be considered precious? Even the lives of those who have done you wrong? Everyone from Gandhi, to Martin Luther King Jr., to the Dalai Lama preach non-violence. Of course, Jesus did as well. Why is the fight so strong from a Christian perspective on abortion, but so apathetic when it comes to life in general? I can only define as hypocritical someone who is unrelentingly pro-life on one hand, but wields a hunting rifle against innocent life, and is pro-war on the other hand.

    • Posted By: KJC03 @ 11/04/2008 12:05:34 PM

      That sure is a broad generalization. I'm a Christian and I would never go hunting or harm an animal on purpose. But, if you support the right to kill a baby, you have to support the right to kill a deer.

      • Posted By: Atone @ 11/04/2008 12:26:43 PM

        Yes, there is hypocrisy all around. I am only calling for a broader discussion on life and the value of it. Not just limiting it to a fetus' life. Human beings are complicated and often are not rational. The world is the same. We are in two wars causing great loss to human life yet some would vote for policies that continue those wars because they share pro-life convictions with a particular candidate, leader, etc. I believe that is myopic thinking. It's time to break out of our fundamentalist cages and evolve and expand the discussion.

  • Posted By: KingsBard @ 11/04/2008 12:13:50 PM

    McCain in August 1999:
    "I'd love to see a point where (Roe vs. Wade) is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary. But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe vs. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to (undergo) illegal and dangerous operations."

    Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) in August 2004:
    "When a Catholic does not share a candidate's stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons."

    • Posted By: Old Joe @ 11/04/2008 12:26:21 PM

      Re Ratzinger: Having been raised a Catholic, I surely know legalistic logic-spinning when I see it. Rome can prove or disprove anything if you turn minds like Ratzinger loose on it.

  • Posted By: PastorTerrence @ 11/04/2008 12:25:27 PM

    CatJax (response 3)

    "The Bible says that the Law is perfect. It commands you to be perfect (Matthew 5:48). Are you perfect (in thought, word, and deed)? Will you make it to Heaven? You may say that you are still good, but God says you're not (see Psalm 14:2-3). So one of you is lying, and the Scriptures tell us that it is impossible for God to lie. Remember that all liars will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). God's Law demands justice, and the penalty for sinning against Him is death and Hell. Listen carefully if you want to live.
    God Himself made a way where His justice and His goodness could meet. We broke the Law, but He became a man to pay the fine. Jesus suffered and died on the cross to satisfy the Law. God can forgive us and grant us the gift of everlasting life! But you may still think that you can (from now on) keep the Ten Commandments. But isn't it true that the best of us have lied, stolen, lusted, hated, failed to love God above all else, and failed to love our neighbor as ourselves?
    How can we then, live a "good" life if we have already sinned against God? At best we are reformed liars and thieves . . . but still Lawbreakers. Think of it this way - would you sell one of your eyes for a million dollars? Would you sell both for $50 million? I'm sure you wouldn't. Your eyes are priceless, yet they are merely the windows of your soul. What then must your life (soul) be worth? With these thoughts in mind, what would be a fair price to pay for everlasting life? It is utterly without price. Yet, if we trust in our own goodness to enter Heaven, we are saying to God, "I should enter Heaven because I have done good - I have earned my way in."
    Imagine if you wanted to give me a brand new (very expensive) car, but I said, "I can't take it! I feel embarrassed receiving such a gift . . . here's 10 cents for it." I'm sure you would be very insulted by such a pathetic offer of payment. Besides, if I pay for it, it is no longer a gift, it's a purchase . . . it's mine by right.
    When we talk of entering Heaven by being good, by trying to keep the Ten Commandments etc., we are tossing God 10 cents of "self-righteousness," which is a terrible insult to Him, in the light of His sacrifice. The only thing we can do is humble ourselves, repent of our sins, and receive the gift by trusting Jesus Christ alone. Almighty God demonstrated how much He loves you when Jesus suffered for you on the cross. If you want to trust in your own goodness, then you are saying His agonizing death on the cross was in vain. The Bible says, "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." You cannot earn a gift."

  • Posted By: floridacadman @ 11/04/2008 12:14:34 PM

    I know Im going out on a limb here, but Im going to ask one of you rightous right wingers anyway. Whos going to pay for the 40 million new people in America if we dump Roe v Wade? Dont forget, theyre unwanted, so by definition most will be homeless.
    I thought you guys didnt want higher taxes?

    • Posted By: Skallywag @ 11/04/2008 12:23:13 PM

      Simply put, abortion as a means of population control? Some left wing nut job back in Nazi germany thought the same thing - his name was Josef Mengele. Get real.

  • Posted By: readre @ 11/04/2008 12:23:00 PM

    Whadamess ??? Concerning your comment at 9:55 AM this morning about reporting the truth on Obama's position on live-birth abortion, here is the information you requested:

    Illinois State Senate 92nd General Assembly; Senate Vote on Bill No. 1661. Obama opposed protection for the infant born alive having survived an abortion. No protection ??? just set it aside and let it die.

  • Posted By: arnoldrimando @ 11/04/2008 10:03:35 AM

    As a catholic and believes in GOD, there is only one issue that concerns me and that is abortion. All the other issues do not really matter because they only deal with human needs. Either way you will be with the other 50% American voters in these other issues. But in the issue of ABORTION, it is a choice between body or soul because you are dealing with GOD. Both of the presidential candidates are cable of running the country that is why the odds are a 50-50 more or less split among the voters. There are no bad agendas of any of these candidates & there is no perfect issues that will provide 100% satisfaction to anyone. I am voting Republican, not because I dislike Obama, but because the Republican Party is the party that is ANTI-ABORTION AND PRO-LIFE. In the issue of abortion you are dealing with GOD and with the other issues you are dealing with humans. As catholics, it is your body or your soul in this election. For me, win or lose, I will still have my dignity as a member of the Catholic Church and have a clean soul. Those Catholics who will vote otherwise should consider resigning from the Catholic church. We do not need hypocrites who called themselves Catholics. The Catholic Church is ALWAYS AGAINST ABORTION.
    Posted by: Arnaldo Rimando

    • Posted By: AeroSC @ 11/04/2008 10:20:08 AM

      This is what is wrong with your statement. You say people who disagree with you on Abortion should not be called Catholics. Whereas, I'm not saying that people who disagree with me on War, Death Penalty etc. should not be called Catholics (things Republicans support strongly).

      I don't think it is only about one issue and it saddens me to see how narrow minded you are. Do you think making Abortion illegal will stop it? Just think how many black market abortion clinics will be opened up. Rather than using negatives to oppose abortion one must work on making the alternatives more positive. How about spending our time, money and efforts on preventing unwanted pregnancies (how about the Cahtolic chuch finally promotes and accepts contraception!!), counseling to pregnant women who are unsure, improving the adoption process, etc.

      I am Catholic and I am voting for Obama. Sure Obama and the Democtratic party don't agree 100% with my beliefs and ideals but neither does McCain and the Republicans. In the end, I think Obama and the Democrats encompass my beliefs and ideals more fully than McCain and the Republicans.

      Who are you to say that doesn't make me Catholic? Are you God? I have prayed, meditated, thought about my decision and I am really comfortable about it. I have no fear in facing God when I die because I believe I am making the right decision. If you believe the same then fine, just wish you wouldn't base your whole argument on one thing but OPEN YOUR EYES and consider everything the candidates stand for.

      • Posted By: arnoldrimando @ 11/04/2008 10:47:25 AM

        Abortion is an issue with GOD and the Catholic church is always against abortion and it is hypocritical for a catholic to vote for the party that is pro-abortion. I am just telling catholics to follow the teaching of the Catholic church. I said to consider resigning. I am not forcing you to vote for the party that is anti abortion. After the election I will feel good about being against abortion and if you feel good being pro abortion then good for you. No need to be mad and by the way, I am not GOD but I am with GOD in this issue of abortion.
        Relax and enjoy life.

        • Posted By: AeroSC @ 11/04/2008 12:01:24 PM

          Do you agree with absolutely everything the Catholic Church says? Do you think that being Catholic means to blindly agree with everything the Catholic Leaders say? Do you think for yourself?

          I am not pro-abortion, I am just not voting for the party that says they want to make abortion illegal. Do you actually think people want more abortions? Do you understand that God gave us free choice, and what that means? Do you want to go AGAINST God and not allow people to choose and accept the consequences of their choices?

          I am not asking you to consider resigning Catholicism just to open your mind a little and think. The Catholic Church has some corruption in their top leadership. I believe down below at the local levels at the local churches catholicism is strong and pure but I don't agree with some of the top leadership in the Catholic Church. I think it was pathetic how they handled the priest abuse scandals, I think they should modernize and accept contraception, and accept that homosexuals are born that way and even though different are no less human and deserve equal rights, etc.

          Jesus was all about inclusion, including everyone, sinners, prostitutes, tax collectors, peasants, you name it. We all have equal rights and deserve redemption. These days I am appaled by how some Christian groups practice exclusion, by forcing people to divide instead of unite, and not accepting all kinds of people.

          You sir should dig down deep into your soul and really talk to God on a deep level so you can open your eyes and see what Catholicism and Christianity is really about. It's not about hate but love, not about negatives but positives, it's not about exclusion but inclusion.

          Have a good day.

          • Posted By: catjax @ 11/04/2008 12:17:53 PM

            No need to reply. Very well said AeroSc.

      • Posted By: catjax @ 11/04/2008 10:50:05 AM

        Very well said AeroSC.

    • Posted By: catjax @ 11/04/2008 10:33:04 AM

      I came from a whole family of Catholics and I can only say HYPOCRITES. My brother-in-law who makes a point of taking his children to all of the abortion demonstrations, making them hold the terrible pictures, etc. had no problem kicking my sister in the stomach at 8 months pregnant. If she had miscarried, would you have called that justified because he's a so called Catholic. I would have called it murder no different than abortion. We have more underage kids in our so called Catholic family having babies only to leave them behind of their parents to raise not giving an iota of crap what happens to them but yet that's okay because they chose not to abort? Get off your high horses and quit thinking that you are so holier than though when really, the majority of you are guiliter than most when it comes to the sins of the bible. There is only one God and guess what, you're not it. The last time my brother-in-law and I spoke was when he had the gall to tell me that only Catholics went to heaven and all others were wasting their time. I doubt very seriously I'll see him there because he'll be sent straight to hell for the way he has treated others. Catholic or not. I am glad I did not choose and had the right not to choose to be a Catholic because if I had, I probably wouldn't believe in God at all. And most of the kids in our family do not live the godly life because of the "do as I say and not as I do" attitudes of their Catholic parents. You preach against abortion but then allow your 13 & up kids to have sex. Give me a break. HYPOCRITES!

      • Posted By: arnoldrimando @ 11/04/2008 11:44:53 AM

        Good for your. Admitting that your family are hypocrties is the way to go. These are the people that I am tallking about that should consider resigning from the Catholic Church because what you just describe are behaviors that the catholic church will not and have not condone. The catholic church is always against abortion and a pro-abortionist do not belong to the catholic church. By the way not all catholics will go to heaven, only good catholics will and what you have just described are behaviors of (you are right) catholics who are HYPOCRITES and do not have a place in heaven. Listen, I am not GOD but I am with GOD in this issue of abortion.

    • Posted By: Democrat-Hillary @ 11/04/2008 10:12:09 AM

      Christian? Republicans?
      They just bring the Bible and the abortion and gays issues every 4 years, then put in the drawer. Bush did nothing in 6 years after all his promises while campaigning.
      First, Bush had girlfriend Ms. Lowman have an abortion, yes killing his own baby, at tewlve oaks hospital by. Dr. Chandler in 1971.
      Second, Cheney daughter is openly lesbian and her wife is part of Cheney???s family in all events for everyone to see.
      Third, there have been thousands killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.; over 60K Americans die every year for lack of medical care (20x more than 9/11); elderly that cant buy their medication and will die, families destroyed, divorced, ruined economically..and the list is very loooong!
      Fourth, they have squandered all the surplus of 5.6 trillions and leaving over 11 trillions in debt. They have sacked this country and given all sort of tax breaks and goodies to the richest and big corporations.

      So, if you wanted reasons, people like myself are not voting for the hypocritical republicans that have been in power 20 of out last 28 years and have done NOTHING about changing anything on abortion or gays because it is their carrot to have Christian voting one issue and no seeing the rest.
      Republican have blood in their hands and have looted this country and American people of not only their money, but their pride and image around the world.

      In my Bible, killing, stealing, not helping the poor, not assisting the sick or in need, is not rewarded with heaven. Most add the dirty campaign of lies, blasphemy, provoking violence was not what Jesus taught. Let alone voting for a person that cheated his wife.

  • Posted By: EYFF @ 11/04/2008 11:29:26 AM

    Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.
    God is the authority over life and death. Not the Government.
    Life begins at the moment of conception. To premeditate the killing of an unborn child is beyond the authority of any government.
    Perhaps they should show on the TV how an abortion is performed especially on a late term pregnancy where the skull of the baby is pierced and the brain suck out so that the baby could be removed from the womb! Watch that and then come back and argue with me to say it's OK to murder an unborn child!
    Perhaps after that suicide should be legalized and cover by social security?!

    • Posted By: floridacadman @ 11/04/2008 11:38:28 AM

      Sounds nasty. Maybe you need to watch a person thats already been born get his head blown off in war while I watch that. Or, is someones son being mutilated ok, as long as he's had a few years walking upright?

      • Posted By: readre @ 11/04/2008 11:56:36 AM

        Wow, now there's a comparison! A person who knew of the potential of death before making the CHOICE to get involved vs. an innocent child who had no choice who gets sentenced to death. Hmm...

        • Posted By: floridacadman @ 11/04/2008 12:06:21 PM

          Wow, the one person on the planet that thinks an 18 year old is qualified to make life and death decisions...hmmmm.

          • Posted By: readre @ 11/04/2008 12:17:24 PM

            Guess I'm not the only one... the pro-choice side thinks the 13-year old girl is qualified to make the life and death decision regarding abortion. You speak with forked-tongue my friend.

    • Posted By: KJC03 @ 11/04/2008 12:02:44 PM

      Actually, the government does have authority over murder. We throw people in jail for murdering human beings all the time. People just disagree on whether or not an unborn baby is a human being.

  • Posted By: kw3400 @ 11/04/2008 11:46:08 AM

    OH my word! This article is ridiculous! Abortion is murder. Plain and simple. A Chrisitan who casts a vote for a candidate who supports abortion will have to stand before God and give an account for the murder of unborn children. Chrisitians! Stand up for what is right! Vote according to the word of God! You are supposed to be salt and light in the earth, not go along with what the media or articles like this say is okay to do.

    • Posted By: KingsBard @ 11/04/2008 12:15:45 PM

      Then you cannot vote for McCain. In 1999, he voiced his opinion that Roe v. Wade should not be overturned.

  • Posted By: Jack 8590 @ 11/04/2008 11:02:32 AM

    I am pro choice.....

    Seems that we are dealing with the symptom rather than the cause.

    Like Mom always said; "be careful what you ask for because you might just get it." If we reverse Roe v. Wade what would the result be? Most likely the decision returns to the states and that won;t solve anything. You will have women crossing state lines to have the procedure performed.

    And what about the mothers - now living with unwanted children? Reverend Al said it best (paraphrasing): "you love our babies when they are in the womb, but after they are born you don;t want to hear about it!" What do we do with these unwanted children? Adoption? Welfare? Orphanages?

    While many see abortions as a moral problem, it becomes an economic problem after the child is born.

    Many pro lifers are opposed to sex education and birth control. 100 years ago people married at a much younger age. Society has changed and now marriage is put off until much later in life. Our biology, however, has not changed. As children become sexually mature in our mid teens, we can not expect them to wait as long as say....15 more years?....before they have sex.

    The question isn't necessarily about abortion, for that is the symptom. The question isn't about the economics of unwanted babies, that too is a symptom. The question is how do we, as a society, prevent unwanted pregnancies.

    • Posted By: nimodahooligan @ 11/04/2008 12:01:19 PM

      thank you thank you thank you...

      support diverse and thorough sex-ed
      support free contraceptives
      support free (or very cheap) varieties of birth control
      support better orphanages
      support better adoption laws
      support mothers to be (that opted to not have an abortion) by providing free daycares in schools/colleges and work places. why? so they can provide for the life they just brought into the world without being stuck in a dead end job and living check to check.

      support answers, not dictation. support choice (it is a choice, much like turning the TV on and off). support eachother.

      get off your high horse's of morality and make a difference if your god opposes abortion so much.

      if you oppose abortion so staunchly, i would hope you wouldnt have "moral" issues adopting babies of another color than yourself, or of another religion, or that arent "normal" or in "gods image"...

      until all of this happens...most likely this debate will never end as long as religion is involved...

  • Posted By: SailToTheMoon @ 11/04/2008 11:51:35 AM

    I voted for Obama today, but still find it strange and upsetting that you set up a false dichotomy between the "rationale" of people who think abortion isn't (for politically practical reasons) as central of an issue as it used to be, and what you call "mean spirited rhetoric." A lot of the opposition to abortion has not been mean spirited. A lot of the opposition to abortion has been from a matter of fact perspective, or handed out in a kind matter by volunteers who give their time and their lives to support single mothers. I know this because, for years, I was one of those volunteers, and I also know because I am married to a pro-choice voter who wouldn't put up with me if I was in any way mean spirited about the issue.

    I also find it upsetting that you classify the pro-life issue as a religious one. For quite some time I was agnostic and nonetheless opposed abortion on civil rights grounds ??? which are still the grounds on which I rest my beliefs against it. Like the slavery issue in the time before the Civil War, this issue is one of competing liberties ??? not necessarily religious beliefs ??? although many anti-slavery proponents felt religiously moved to oppose it. Before the Civil War, there were those who saw anti-slavery measures as violations of their Constitutional rights to property, while there were those who saw slavery as a violation of an individual???s (the slave???s) Constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In like manner, a majority of those who debate against abortion see it as a violation of the unborn infant???s right to life. In fact, I believe that has been the central argument in the debate.

  • Posted By: SailToTheMoon @ 11/04/2008 11:51:13 AM

    I voted for Obama today, but still find it strange and upsetting that you set up a false dichotomy between the "rationale" of people who think abortion isn't (for politically practical reasons) as central of an issue as it used to be, and what you call "mean spirited rhetoric." A lot of the opposition to abortion has not been mean spirited. A lot of the opposition to abortion has been from a matter of fact perspective, or handed out in a kind matter by volunteers who give their time and their lives to support single mothers. I know this because, for years, I was one of those volunteers, and I also know because I am married to a pro-choice voter who wouldn't put up with me if I was in any way mean spirited about the issue.

    I also find it upsetting that you classify the pro-life issue as a religious one. For quite some time I was agnostic and nonetheless opposed abortion on civil rights grounds ??? which are still the grounds on which I rest my beliefs against it. Like the slavery issue in the time before the Civil War, this issue is one of competing liberties ??? not necessarily religious beliefs ??? although many anti-slavery proponents felt religiously moved to oppose it. Before the Civil War, there were those who saw anti-slavery measures as violations of their Constitutional rights to property, while there were those who saw slavery as a violation of an individual???s (the slave???s) Constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In like manner, a majority of those who debate against abortion see it as a violation of the unborn infant???s right to life. In fact, I believe that has been the central argument in the debate.

  • Posted By: Pampam @ 11/04/2008 11:37:40 AM

    Anyone who is pro-life, but allows an exception for rape or incest, is a hypocrite at best. If you think abortion is murder, I'm sorry to tell you the result of Uncle Jack's tryst with little Suzie is still a baby, and aborting it is still murder. Why don't you just admit you haven't really thought it through? Why can't a pro-life person choose not to have an abortion, without forcing other people to follow their religious beliefs? You act as if a vote for Obama means you have to have an abortion yourself, or that he'll go around performing abortions on women. Contrary to what you've been told, pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. If the only people who could vote on abortion were women who've gone through at least one labor and delivery (or the widower of a woman who has died in childbirth), we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

  • Posted By: Dutchman01 @ 11/04/2008 11:13:33 AM

    I'm an athiest. Still, I've often wondered why anyone who considers thimself/herself could ever consider supporting a democratic party that keeps the abortion mills humming with activity. I suppose that's why I could never be a christian, what with all the hypocracy and all.

    • Posted By: KJC03 @ 11/04/2008 11:33:22 AM

      Your comment brought up an interesting thought for me. I assume that, as an athiest, you don't believe in an afterlife. It would seem logical to me that athiests would be even more opposed to ending a life prematurely than Christians, who believe the baby will go to Heaven. I've never thought about it before, but life should be even more precious for those people who don't believe there is anything before or beyond what we experience here on Earth.

  • Posted By: Dutchman01 @ 11/04/2008 11:10:48 AM

    I'm an athiest. Having said that I can't help but wonder why anyone who calls themselves a christian could possible stand by a party that supports and condones the killing of our children. I guess it takes a hypocrite.

    • Posted By: kw3400 @ 11/04/2008 11:13:47 AM

      Oh my word you hit the nail on the head buddy. Kudos to you!

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