The Final Repudiation

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  • Posted By: Patrick Era @ 11/11/2008 11:16:06 AM

    George Will's argument is an unpardonable drift from facts and reality - I am terribly disappointed that this is coming from a very fertile mind as his- which I have always admired and will neverthless continue to admire. American history is replete with Presidents who had thin resume but turned out to be great and successful presidents - Abraham Lincoln is a shining example in this regard - by the same breath, there have been presidents with long fat resume that failed. No matter what Will believes the intents of the founders to be - theirs was influenced and tailored by the realities of their times and age- and they recognized that foundamental truth - hence they made allowance for future changes and expansions (of the constitution and the system) as would meet the needs and times of future generations after them - what a great foresight on their part to behold! Will may have to answer these questions: following the strength of your own logic of what the founders did and intended, do (or should) we continue to insist that women and Blacks have no right to vote and/or be voted for? and should we continue to treat women as our "personal property" (God forbids)? Just as one may argue that President-elect Barack Obama has no "fat resume", but no one in his or her right senses would deny that Barack Obama is a great intellect, has great intelligence, sound judgment and above all invigorating intellectual curiousity - which were (and still) the virtues of great Presidents - just as the saying goes: "it is not how far but how well." President-elect Barack Obama has demonstrated time and time again the qualities of good leadership. What really does George Will want? Or it is just simply all about ideology? Although running a good campaign does not necessarily guarantee making a good president but everyone would agree that 'charity begins at home." It begs the issue for one to say that a candidate who could not run a campaign should be trusted to a run a country moreso as complex and diverse as ours.
    My dear George Will, no matter what you just found out to be the founders intent to be in nominating and electing a president, let us give President-elect Barack Obama chance to succeed - all to the good of America - we all love and cherish.

    • Posted By: Southerner @ 11/11/2008 12:14:28 PM

      There is absolutely no chance that Obama will succeed, because all of his plans have already been proven not to work. Soaking the rich will not help the poor. It will make things worse for them. The ebbing tide will lower all boats.

  • Posted By: txboomer47 @ 11/11/2008 11:56:00 AM

    Read Justice Curtis dissent in Dred Scott and note his explanation that blacks were part of the ratifying convention of the Constitution in at least five of the states. The Constitution does not restrict voting for either blacks or women. The amendments that assure their right to vote are to correct the actions of state constitutions.

  • Posted By: ktbarbieri @ 11/11/2008 11:52:20 AM

    George stop being a spoiled sport. Barack won, McCain lost. I'm not happy about it either. Instead of analyzing Barack's campain victory in light of the Framers' intent for presidential elections, why don't you focus on how neoconservatives disfigured the traditional, old guard, political values of the Republican Party. You and Ceasar are correct to say that the Framers were worried about demogoguery. However, times were different then. Voters today can get infomed; they can learn about the issues and about the policy ideas of candidates. Voters are wooed by personal appearances and oratory skills of candidates, to be sure. However, to imply that Barack's victory is owed more to his oratory skills than to his policy positions is to suggest that voters are nothing but fools, capable of being decieved, or duped, by an eloquent, political bafooon.

  • Posted By: txboomer47 @ 11/11/2008 11:39:45 AM

    Where in the Constitution does it say women can't vote? Voter qualification was a matter for the states. Women voted in New Jersey from the 1790s into the early 1800s. Women were voting in several states in substantial numbers prior to the Nineteenth Amendment. The Founders were not anti-women.

  • Posted By: Cemlo2 @ 11/11/2008 11:06:51 AM

    Question: As a conservative, Mr. Will, are you suggesting that women and blacks should not have access to the Presidential selection process; as voting rights were restricted by those founding fathers?

  • Posted By: Cemlo2 @ 11/11/2008 11:04:31 AM

    Question: As a conservative, Mr. Will, are you saying women and blacks should not be a part of the Presidential selection process?

  • Posted By: DWHarper @ 11/11/2008 10:58:44 AM

    It seems that Mr. Will would rather have the elite few select our leaders rather than the rabble rousing crowd that can be fooled so easily by a fiery speech. It was Will who also bemoaned in this magazine about the low "quality" of the electorate earlier this election season. The will of the people has usurped the Founding Fathers intent for almost 200 years now and the latest permutation of the electoral process is the system now employed to discern that will.
    Conservatives are always pointing to the Founding Fathers as an example of how to govern in today's society but they offered only solutions for governance of the 18th century but wisely setup the Constitution to adapt for future generations to govern. Without this adaptation we would still have slavery and women would not be allowed to vote.

  • Posted By: psmeagher @ 11/11/2008 10:57:11 AM

    Are you kidding me? If Obama's policies (far more developed than mere oratory-- a practice employed just as much in our founding fathers days as now I might add. Would we have had a revolution without "give me liberty or give me death!"?) were in line with your own, this article would be about the way he redeemed the founding father's original intent for our country. You are so full of crap. I'm glad our founding father's original attempt at limiting representation to WASP male landowners has been updated to fit America's greatest strength-- diversity of opinion and race. Pathetic article.

  • Posted By: TheSimulacra @ 11/11/2008 10:55:01 AM

    I get the feeling that if the Founders had known that almost 200 years after they died, we would still be squabbling over their "intent" as if we were monks obsessing over the Dead Sea Scrolls, trying to divine wisdom about the future of our nation based on the opinions of a handful of (mostly great) men who actually never lived long enough to see a lightbulb let alone the Internet, they would have scrapped the whole idea and gone crawling back to King George.

  • Posted By: TheSimulacra @ 11/11/2008 10:54:41 AM

    I get the feeling that if the Founders had known that almost 200 years after they died, we would still be squabbling over their "intent" as if we were monks obsessing over the Dead Sea Scrolls, trying to divine wisdom about the future of our nation based on the opinions of a handful of (mostly great) men who actually never lived long enough to see a lightbulb let alone the Internet, they would have scrapped the whole idea and gone crawling back to King George.

  • Posted By: Real_American @ 11/11/2008 10:45:21 AM

    Does it matter what the founding fathers had in mind for ANYTHING, George? This is AMERICA, for crying out loud. Things like the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution--they're so old-fashioned, you know? Just ask Barack Obama. Constitution, pfffft....who needs it?

    Welcome to the downfall of the greatest nation to have graced the planet. The same people who call the Constitution a "living document" are the ones who are responsible for the eventual and inevitable destruction of this country by Barack Obama and those like him. The founding documents were not, and have never been (nor were they ever intended as) "living documents". Like the foundation of a building, they are STATIC BY DESIGN. These documents codified ideals that would withstand the force of political pressures, popular excesses and the "crisis of the day"; more importantly they were designed to withstand and negate the one thing that never changes--basic human nature. That and that alone is the brilliance of the founders' vision. Left alone, the Constitution and other documents of our founding would preserve America and her people for eternity.

    The moronic selection of Constitution-hating Barack Obama and his minions in Congress assures that the keystone of our nation is now undefended. Once the keystone has been pecked away to nothing, its powers of retention and preservation pissed away for the sake of political gain and expediency, the nation that it has held together for more than 200 years will crumble under the weight of shortsightedness and ignorance. God help us all.

  • Posted By: Real_American @ 11/11/2008 10:44:50 AM

    Does it matter what the founding fathers had in mind for ANYTHING, George? This is AMERICA, for crying out loud. Things like the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution--they're so old-fashioned, you know? Just ask Barack Obama. Constitution, pfffft....who needs it?

    Welcome to the downfall of the greatest nation to have graced the planet. The same people who call the Constitution a "living document" are the ones who are responsible for the eventual and inevitable destruction of this country by Barack Obama and those like him. The founding documents were not, and have never been (nor were they ever intended as) "living documents". Like the foundation of a building, they are STATIC BY DESIGN. These documents codified ideals that would withstand the force of political pressures, popular excesses and the "crisis of the day"; more importantly they were designed to withstand and negate the one thing that never changes--basic human nature. That and that alone is the brilliance of the founders' vision. Left alone, the Constitution and other documents of our founding would preserve America and her people for eternity.

    The moronic selection of Constitution-hating Barack Obama and his minions in Congress assures that the keystone of our nation is now undefended. Once the keystone has been pecked away to nothing, its powers of retention and preservation pissed away for the sake of political gain and expediency, the nation that it has held together for more than 200 years will crumble under the weight of shortsightedness and ignorance. God help us all.

  • Posted By: pgme123 @ 11/11/2008 10:10:57 AM

    I would have to disagree that Carter is the best analog to Obama. I would make the argument that Lincoln is a much better example. Lawyer by training, member of Illinois house of representatives, elected to one term in the House, took a brief break from politics, then electrified the country with his speeches and debates and ran for president on a thin resume but with big promises of reform reconciliation and moderation. Also the condition of a divided country between more rural ???real Americans??? resisting globalization and change (of cultural and economic issues) and progressives seems apt as well.

    Obviously the proof of Obama will be in how he governs, but Will's choice of Carter as example seems backwards to me. It would seem he chose the straw man in Carter and then bent Obama to fit his argument.

    Also to note Will???s seeming approval of closed door nominations for President I would argue that the founders fear of the masses choice of a possible demagogue is more an artifact of history then a tradition we should be adhering too. The Founders would have been surprised and probably disagreed with allowing non land owners women and Blacks voting rights, that doesn???t mean we should deny them their right based on what the Founders thought. The constitution was meant to be a living document just as our country was meant to be a living evolving place to always allow for a better union for the benefit of all people.

    Also Will is a sore loser :P

    • Posted By: blind lemon @ 11/11/2008 10:28:39 AM

      I would agree with pgme123. I would just add that Lincoln was nominated by a process even more egregious than a long campaign of oratory. He was nominated by virtue of clever machinations at a political convention (fortuitously held in his own home state). Sure the present system is better than that. Luckily, neither of them invariably produces the result that Mr. Will would favor.

  • Posted By: zippety51 @ 11/11/2008 9:46:10 AM

    george will is a sore loser. he may have a mind but he has no heart or conscience. He would vote for the republican with the years of experience of corrupt incompetence and buckling the country at it's knees over the hope of a more moral, competent, fair, less divisive leader. It seems to me that he should have been more concerned in 2000 with the process of selection of a m.o.r.o.n as President.

  • Posted By: gaelgirl @ 11/11/2008 9:20:39 AM

    If the Media and WeThePeople bothered to assess the election process this year, it would become clear that Americans most emphatically DID NOT elect this ignoramus to office! Election fraud all around the country and especially in swing states has been virtually ignored. When the Sec of State is a DEM, (ie. Ohio, Minn) it has been covered up, and excused. The deceit of this Obama candidacy is egregious and those who DID participate in his successful election are doomed to suffer the consequences. But, please, do not put this president-elect on the backs of American democracy. The process bore no resemblance to such.

  • Posted By: Cleduc @ 11/11/2008 8:54:44 AM

    If the founders could review the 2008 election, they probably would have taken the time as many did to review Obama's full career in public office and seen that his experience and path most closely mirrored Lincoln's. They probably would have read Obama's book "The Audacity of Hope" as many did and as they watched and heard him, concluded there was much more to this man than oratory. Many of the founders would have heard Obama???s speech on race and appplauded, realizing that he was closer to Lincoln than to Carter. They would have appreciated his reaction to the economic crisis over that of his opponent as his actions spoke louder than oratory and won him support.

    If the founders reviewed the Republican Rovian and McCarthyism tactics of the last three elections and how the partisan media played along, I think they???d vomit with disgust.

    Times have changed. The level of scrutiny a candidate is exposed to is incredible today: a 21 month guantlet through partisan media like George Will.

    For the founders who were against slavery, they would have teared up like many Americans did at 11pm on Nov 4th, 2008. For the founders who were for slavery, at 11pm on Nov 4th, those who had any trace of objectivity and/or conscience would have acknowledged that it was their greatest mistake. Overall, the founders would look at this election with pride ??? that more than 200 years later, the nation these men founded could still find a way to correct itself as a government of the people, by the people and for the people. I think the founders would have overwhelmingly voted for Obama.

    • Posted By: JoanR @ 11/11/2008 9:10:05 AM

      Obama's "career" closely mirrors Lincoln"s. Which career would that be? The ACORN bagman? The state Senator voting "present"? What appalling trash. By 1860 Lincoln had a fully developed theory of government and had taken strong public stands of the defining issue of his day.The whole, without the need to reference Rasmussen or Gallup. Lincoln indeed.

  • Posted By: Fotchilds @ 11/11/2008 9:01:39 AM

    Obamas ascent has brought to the fore the inadequacies of democracy.He has no strong views on anything . He has no track record of achievements outside affirmative benefits. Yet he is the ONE.. DEMOCRACY is really crazy.

  • Posted By: Fotchilds @ 11/11/2008 8:53:54 AM

    Americans are funny people and they are giving democracy a bad name . They have just elected someone who has no values. He gave a speech that he was not ready to repudiate his Pastor much as he would not deny his grandmother, but when push becomes shove , he denied Wright. Same on public financing of his campaign. Same on bipartisinship. Americans are just underlying the weakness of popular democracy that can foist people like outgoing and incoming on U.S.A Presidents on otherwise intelligent people.

  • Posted By: radiospace @ 11/11/2008 4:11:29 AM

    Will's article is just another conservative hack job trying to belittle Obama's victory and, especially, to try and spin a fairy tale where his well-documented liberal positions are supposedly irrelevant to his victory. Two weeks ago Obama was a "Marxist", a "Communist", a "Radical," and a "Socialist." Now that he's won the Presidency, Republicans suddenly discover that he's a non-ideological "personality" candidate whose only skill, interest (and, thus, naturally, mandate) is giving pretty speeches.

    Ask yourself this: if our electoral system has truly "devolved" to become a mere oratorical contest, how did the notoriously inarticulate George W. Bush win two terms to the Presidency? Conservatives always seem to find that the whole system is broken when they lose, but they're oddly unmoved by these reputedly fatal flaws when the results they produce are Republicans in the White House.

    Will's nostalgia for the political process of the 18th century is ridiculous. The founding fathers didn't foresee the rise of political parties precisely because they represented such a narrow class interest (landed white gentry) that there was little basis for conflict. As our definition of "citizen" has expanded to include both genders, all races, and every economic class, the political process has by necessity become more open and more sophisticated in order to allow those diverse groups to compete, compromise, and form alliances, in order to produce a government that reflects the competing desires of the populace.

    Will's hints that Obama is some kind of a demagogue -- his not-so-subtly associating him with George Wallace and his ilk -- is contemptible, offensive, and hypocritical. After the blatantly demagogic campaign run by McCain and Palin -- with hysterical cries of "terrorist!" and "communist!" and "Muslim!" echoing up from every crowd they addressed -- has been roundly rejected by the majority of Americans, Will has the gall to suggest that it's Obama's brainy optimism that needs to be called to task for violating the founders' supposed intent? Hogwash.

    It's a mark of the hypocrisy at work in Will's logic that he belittles Obama's experience and qualification to be President, while glorifying the selection process that gave us George Washington... for no American President was ever as inexperienced as governing this nation as George Washington, who had not only never served in the civilian American government in any capacity, but who hadn't even the benefit of observing others involved in the task -- because there was no American government or Presidency before the office was invented for him. Washington's success doesn't suggest that the system that selected him was somehow holy, it suggests, much to the contrary, that any intelligent American able to win the support of his countrymen, regardless of his past qualifications, is eligible to make

    • Posted By: radiospace @ 11/11/2008 4:17:24 AM

      [cont.] a great President of himself.

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