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As The Rich Get Poorer

Making the rich poorer doesn't make everyone else richer

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  • Posted By: roadee @ 11/21/2008 12:15:50 PM

    Math is not one of my better subjects, so for those of you that are a little better at this than me, here's my question.... I have seen on T.V. that instead of bailing the banks and companies that have gotten into a jam because of their mismanagement, instead we give everyone (legal residents) over the age of 18 $100,000.00, we might also exclude those that have been convicted of a felony (maybe just elegible boters?). How much would this cost??? Even if we toned that down to $50,000.00? This would help all those facing foreclosure and help the banks as they would be getting the money from the people that owe it. It may even help the car companies, people might buy cars. It would for sure help the whole economy as everyone would have money to spend. Seems to me this would do more good than the current plan to bail the companies out.

  • Posted By: suzvoter47 @ 11/21/2008 11:21:10 AM

    Mr. Samuleson: As a observation not all of us are "poor" some of us are well educated individuals that work icareers that are not deemed "valuable" at least not in a monetary sense. I resent your implications of the behaviors of those that are not rich I believe you mentioned the poor. Not all poor are lazy and ahving bad habits or educations. Life has a way of throwing curve balls to MANY, how do I know I have dealt with this all my career in NON-PROFIT counseling to aide people. My husband is also well educated and we are at what would be considered a comfortable income level.

    Heres the catch as the wealthier people went up the ladder they forgot about the rest of the people and tooke for themselve in wast quantities of greed. We on the other hand don't have the fancy loop holes to stash our cash. Non profits usually cannot offer a retirement account, therefoe I alone put aside my monies for the future. There were no christmas parties, dinners or bonuses to be had. My husbands company eliminated pension plans and now yearly the yearly bonus for those middle executives.

    We still pay rather hefty taxes here in western NY and Im assuming due to the problems downstate we will be blostering downstate once again, while we have been ignored and scrapping by for decades.

    If the rich have to take it on the chin like the rest of us, so be it I think after what we have witnessed due to INCOMOPENTENCY and GREED maybe the "rich" will forced to rethink there me first attitudes that have prevailed for too long.

  • Posted By: epryor @ 11/20/2008 3:58:39 PM

    Mr. Samuelson, have you ever played a game of monopoly? What happens when one person owns all the properties, all the houses and hotels. Its game over. The rich cannot continue to make money because everyone else is broke. If the properties are distrubed more evenly, then the game can go on forever. You may own Boardwalk and Park Place, but I own all the railroads. I make money, then you make money.

  • Posted By: Marypat @ 11/20/2008 3:18:18 PM

    Just an observation re your column's title "As The Rich Get Poorer -- Making the rich poorer doesn't make everyone else richer" seems incongruous (i.e. being wealthy is not being poor so how can anything make the rich poorer?) -- Definition of poor: of, relating to, or characterized by poverty; lacking a normal or adequate supply of something specified.
    "As The Rich Get Less Wealthy -- Making the rich less affluent doesn't make everyone else richer" -- Besides -- why is a column on the perils of the wealthy relevant given the loss of jobs and homes by thousands of Americans?

  • Posted By: Marypat @ 11/20/2008 3:14:56 PM

    Just an observation re your column's title "As The Rich Get Poorer -- Making the rich poorer doesn't make everyone else richer" seems incongruous (i.e. being wealthy is not being poor so how can anything make the rich poorer?) -- Definition of poor: of, relating to, or characterized by poverty; lacking a normal or adequate supply of something specified.
    "As The Rich Get Less Wealthy -- Making the rich less affluent doesn't make everyone else richer" Besides, which why are we concerned about the wealthy when people are losing their jobs and homes.

  • Posted By: roadee @ 11/19/2008 11:42:57 AM

    tired and old, So do you have anything hopeful to comment on???My hope would be that "we, the people" could figure out a way to come together and form a "special interest" that would address many issues that contribute to most of "our" problems. Most problems go hand in hand with each other, if we can solve one we can solve many. One of the biggest problems as I see it is the silent majority, we all need to come together so our voice is as strong as the "special interest" groups that are our downfall.

  • Posted By: tired and old @ 11/18/2008 12:14:27 PM

    THOSE WHO HAVE MILLIONS OR BILLIONS CAN AFFORD TO LOSE SOME MONEY.

    THOSE ( THE MAJORITY ) WHO CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE MONEY ARE SCREWED.

    THE GOVERNMENT SPENDS PUBLIC MONEY RAISED BY TAXES, THREAT OF PRISON TIME IS A GOOD MOTIVATIONAL TOOL FOR TAX COLLECTION.

    THE GOVERNMENT SYSTEM IS SET UP TO EVENTUALLY GET EVERYTHING WE HAVE, REVOLUTION IS THE ONLY OUTCOME.

    THE GOVERNMENT WILL LOSE IN THE END.

    THE PEOPLE WILL LOSE IN THE END.

    THE RICH WILL LOSE IN THE END.

    GREED WILL DESTROY !

  • Posted By: eddiewhere @ 11/18/2008 2:45:45 AM

    The Rich are not getting Poorer. They have fooled you and the rest of you common folks. They got so rich that there is no money left. Now they have you thinking that they are losing money. They are losing your money not theirs. Remember 80% of the worlds economy is owned by 12-20 families and their associates.

  • Posted By: henrytut2 @ 11/15/2008 3:27:11 AM

    I agree that making the rich poorer doesn't necessarily help the rich. The general goal should be to raise living standards for everyone. But that shouldn't be about "averages" or the GDP. If the GDP goes up by 10% and 90% of the people have the same living standard, I don't think that is progress. The standard should be about how it affects most (if not all) of the people. The measure of whether a country is better off should be how 80, 90, or 95% of the people are affected, NOT how the average has changed.

    I don't think that there are many people who wish that the wealthy who made their money legitimately are taken down a peg. However, I think their is little sympathy for hedge fund managers who pulled in billions dollars on their clients' backs when just a short time later, the market collapses and these guys don't share in the suffering. I think there is an increasing awareness (and decreasing sympathy) of those who make money on the backs of others without any actual investment themselves.the country as a whole if 80% of the people don't see an increase in their standards of living.

    I don't think that there are many people who wish that the wealthy who made their money legitimately are taken down a peg. However, I think their is little sympathy for hedge fund managers who pulled in billions dollars on their clients' backs when just a short time later, the market collapses and these guys don't share in the suffering (other than suddenly having fewer guys to split the cost of their yacht vacations). It might be appropriate for some of the bankers and mortgage brokers to have to share in the pain.

  • Posted By: over250 @ 11/11/2008 11:52:17 AM

    Rodee:You are are right about the minimum wage, lets make it really low by eliminating it, and letting in more poor immigrants and then the price of everything will really drop. Opps I forgot they call it a depression when the price of everything drops and nobody has any money. How depressing.

    • Posted By: roadee @ 11/14/2008 10:49:02 AM

      hey over250, Trying to figure out your answer.....so you are saying that Americans won't go to work? what are they going to do, go on welfare??? Not sure how you managed to bring in the poor (possibly illegal?) immigrant? My point was, if we raise the minimum wage it does not raise the the living standard of the worker as everything remains status quo.

    • Posted By: jckst @ 11/12/2008 10:23:39 PM

      Actually, your comment is quite misleading, as most would-be immigrants are NOT coming to America these last 3 years, as our economy has hurt even their dreams of freedom. They are instead trying to relocate to places such as Australia, Britain, and Canada, where jobs are still in-country and not in China.

  • Posted By: robertkjjj @ 11/13/2008 2:08:34 PM

    Roadee, you are correct. There is no way to raise the minimum wage without raising the wages of all the people in the higher wage tiers as well. Raising the minimum causes an unavoidable domino effect. And when companies raise wages, they HAVE to raise the price of their product to continue to make a profit, because they HAVE to make a profit to stay in business and keep their people employed. It has simply never been shown that raising the minimum wage helps ANYONE. I will repeat that. It does not help ANYONE. Not even the person getting the wage. Why? Because when the minimum wage is raised, the price of ALL products and services go up. So, if I give you a 10% raise, but then the price of everything you buy goes up 10% as well, how has that helped you, really? I for one belong to a minority of people who do not even believe in the concept of a minimum wage. I think that when the government imposes a minimum wage they are interfering with the economy. It would be no different form the government telling you how much you could sell your widget for, or how much the MAXIMUM salary could at your company. Let companies offer any salary they want to. If the salary is too low, people will simply not accept the job. In effect: let the people decide what that salary would be. Minimum wage has never worked the way it was intended, and by the way people: minimum wage was NEVER designed to be a living wage that one would support a family on. Rather, it was designed as a starter job to let beginners into the workforce, get a skill-set, and then move on to better jobs. It???s complete nonsense for people to think one should be able to buy a house and feed a family of 4 on a McDonalds job.

    • Posted By: roadee @ 11/13/2008 3:10:55 PM

      robertkjjj, thank you I was kind of thinking that the product might go up by more than the 10%. My first "job" I was 15 or 16 years old, me and a friend got a job picking green beans ( we were the only white people there), we got paid by how many beans we picked. In other words by how much work we actually did. I learned a lot that summer...show up early, work hard, don't leave your bean sack unattended when you eat lunch.

  • Posted By: robertkjjj @ 11/13/2008 12:30:47 PM

    My apologies for all the weird question marks in my post. I write my posts in WORD, then spell check then cut and paste, and Newsweek, for some strange reason, turns apostrophes into ???. Weird.

    • Posted By: roadee @ 11/13/2008 1:27:39 PM

      robertkjjj, Thanks for clearing that up.Would you please read my blog below, either my question holds no merit or no one else is concerned? I only got one answer, it was from over250 and made no sense to me as it didn't address my concerns. If the minimum wage were $4.70 an hour and we raised by 10% it would go to $5.17. Lets say the next rung of the ladder was making $5.17 which now gets a 10% increase in pay, going to $5.69, etc. etc. The pay discrepancy stays the same but what happens to the cost of the product??? Are we going in the hole?

  • Posted By: robertkjjj @ 11/13/2008 12:26:10 PM

    Robert Samuelson is widely considered a financial god and guru to thousands of financially astute people, both liberals and conservatives. Also, he doesn???t vote in any elections and never states political preferences, to maintain neutrality. He writes a regular column for Newsweek and is highly respected for his advice and insight.
    Yet, I could not help but notice that Newsweek waited until AFTER the election to publish this column. Could it be because Samuelson pokes a giant hole in one of the main pillars of Obama???s economic plan? It???s pretty obvious that Newsweek, part of the classic liberal MSM, does not want it???s readers to know the truth: taxing the richer doesn???t help the poorer. It doesn???t work, and Samuelson explains here why this is the case.
    If there was ever a classic case of what people are talking about when they refer to the ???liberal media??? this is it. You see, it???s not always what the media says or does that reveals it???s bias. Often, it???s what they DON???T do, or the TIMING of when they do it. Sneaky? Sure. But, it worked, didn't it? Look who is headed for the White House, if you want your proof.

  • Posted By: robertkjjj @ 11/13/2008 12:22:49 PM

    Robert Samuelson is widely considered a financial god and guru to thousands of financially astute people, both liberals and conservatives. Also, he doesn???t vote in any elections and never states political preferences, to maintain neutrality. He writes a regular column for Newsweek and is highly respected for his advice and insight.
    Yet, I could not help but notice that Newsweek waited until AFTER the election to publish this column. Could it be because Samuelson pokes a giant hole in one of the main pillars of Obama???s economic plan? It???s pretty obvious that Newsweek, part of the classic liberal MSM, does not want it???s readers to know the truth: taxing the richer doesn???t help the poorer. It doesn???t work, and Samuelson explains here why this is the case.
    If there was ever a classic case of what people are talking about when they refer to the ???liberal media??? this is it. You see, it???s not always what the media says or does that reveals it???s bias. Often, it???s what they DON???T do, or the TIMING of when they do it. Sneaky? Sure. But, it worked, didn???t it? Look who is headed for the White House, if you want your proof.

  • Posted By: Concerned Canadian @ 11/07/2008 12:35:47 PM

    If Obama is smart , he'll expedite the construction of the TransCanada gas pipeline project from Alaska through Canada and into the lower 48 states....its a quicker fix to reach energy independence and will
    create thousands and thousands of jobs. You people scoff at this when Palin mentions it but the truth is
    everybody in the oil and gas industry which includes me , agree with Palin on this one 100 %.

    • Posted By: roadee @ 11/13/2008 10:25:09 AM

      Hey Concerned Canadian, would you please go to the top of this page and read my post? I would really like an intellectual answer.

    • Posted By: RO in Reno @ 11/08/2008 8:47:42 AM

      Obama is smart, and he will expedite green energies and especially electric cars that will create "thousands and thousands of jobs, and we won't need that pipeline.

      • Posted By: Concerned Canadian @ 11/08/2008 8:58:46 PM

        Time will tell bud....but I have feeling ...the more things "change" the more they stay the same.

  • Posted By: 2gofer @ 11/08/2008 10:55:43 AM

    Sameulson, you are confined to dealing with reality rather that abstract reasoning. Walter Williams is another commentator who communicates cause and effect economics using analogy in a succinct and understandable manner that anyone should be able to understand. The concerned Canadian correctly provides insight into Economics 101 in previous comments. Fortunately, Obama appears to be very smart and has stopped talking about increasing taxes on the greedy rich who happen to be the investors and employers who provide the employment that the nation needs. He can afford to do so now that he has been elected. He knows full well that increasing the tax burden on domestic suppliers will either drive up prices to the consumers, reduce employment, or transfer employment overseas. The increased tax burden has to come from somewhere. Dinking around with tax rates and tax credits will not resolve the root causes of our economic problems. The housing industry has gone in the tank due to over building and will remain there for the forseeable. The nation needs another opportunity like dot com provided when Bill Clinton was president.

    Future energy solutions provide the needed opportunity. However, it requires a bridging mechanism to get there. Clearly, increased domestic production of petroleum will be required in the interim 20 to 30 years required to develop and implement yet to be identified alternatives. There are adequate reserves identified in Alaska, offshore, and in mid west oil shale deposits to meet the needs. Combined with reduction in energy consumption measures, this could achieve independence from foreign sources. Technology exists to utilize them and they can be on line in 3 years. . This could stem the cash flow to OPEC and Chavez thus providing a tax revenue windfall that can be directed to development and implementation of the future clean alternatives. I am most optimistic that Obama can and will make this initiative his idea even though he has opposed it to date.

    • Posted By: roadee @ 11/10/2008 10:19:08 PM

      2gofer, You are right, I am impressed by the logic of concerned canadian. I agree with you we need to open up all possibilities of drilling for our own oil and natural gas. Then we can concentrate on alternative energy while at the same time getting off our dependency on foriegn oil, we also need to increase reineries so we can refine the oil we get.
      I still ask, what good is all our blogging, we are either preaching to the choir or beating our heads against the wall, in either case while we might be getting it off our chests we are actually not doing anything.

      • Posted By: 2gofer @ 11/11/2008 2:44:42 PM

        Roadee, the futility of posting on blogs came into focus for me over the weekend. There are a couple of benefits for the person doing the posting, but it isn't worth the effort. First, articulating your thoughts is a good mental exercise. Second, it is reassuring when people post a retort intented to refute your position and confirm it instead. Well I just thought of a third reason, there have been some opposing views offered which had merit. Notice that I still can not use the word wrong.
        Thanks, this will probably be my last post.

        • Posted By: roadee @ 11/13/2008 10:21:44 AM

          Actually I was thinking a little more along the lines of some if not all of us getting together to somehow do more than just blog. Do something where we can make a difference. I am not smart enough to figure out a way for us to do that, I was hoping you were? Look to the top of this page on my question about minimum wage, I was serious, and no one has answered.

  • Posted By: jstthetruth666 @ 11/08/2008 10:34:04 AM

    When you decide to take the wealth from the rich, consider these words from a great President:
    WORDS OF WISDOM FOR OBAMA

    You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
    You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
    You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
    You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
    You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
    You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence.
    You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.

    Abraham Lincoln

    • Posted By: jckst @ 11/12/2008 11:16:09 PM

      AMEN!!! A great and wise man, President Lincoln.

  • Posted By: Krohn @ 11/08/2008 12:27:30 AM

    Chris Matthews shows his true colors. Talk about an ongoing free pass!:
    Matthews: "I Want To Do Everything I Can To Make This...New Presidency Work"

    matthews_11-6b.jpgChris Matthews appeared on MSNBC's Morning Joe this morning to discuss Rahm Emanuel's decision to announce he has not yet accepted President-Elect Barack Obama's offer for White House Chief of Staff and other Obama-related stories.

    But after some questioning by co-host Joe Scarborough, Matthews said, "I want to do everything I can to make this thing work, this new presidency work."

    "Your job as a journalist is to make this presidency work?" asked Scarborough.

    Scarborough, co-host Mika Brzezinski and guest Richard Stengel continued the conversation about a journalist's role with Matthews throughout the interview. Stengel described the "constitutional responsibility" of journalists to "hold his feet to the fire."

    • Posted By: jckst @ 11/12/2008 11:14:33 PM

      Personally, I believe the responsibility of a journalist is to not lie, be biased, and report the news in a professional manner, unlike has happened in our country for at least the last 50 years. Journalists are political whores today, telling you who to vote for and being told to tell you who to vote for by their commentaries and "special reports." What a bunch of self-inflated, overpaid liars and whores. They are the ones that got Nobama elected this term, not the voters. They told the voters who to vote for, and they did (like cattle being lead to the slaughter), just what they were told to do by the whore reporters.

  • Posted By: Jaray24 @ 11/05/2008 2:43:06 PM

    I would rather learn how to be rich, and given the opportunities to be rich than a dumb check from someone who is rich.

    Goes with the old saying: ???Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime??????Author unknown

    • Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/05/2008 10:31:48 PM

      Actually the man will be poisoned thanks to all the deregulation by the Bush administration.

      • Posted By: jckst @ 11/12/2008 11:01:55 PM

        Your lack of education shows. Bush didn't deregulate, Clinton did. Take a free valium from Clinton.

  • Posted By: GeoArk @ 11/06/2008 4:44:29 PM

    It???s too bad that some economists just don???t get it. It???s not WHO you tax but WHAT you tax that counts. Let???s stop taxing things that we want and start taxing things we don???t want. Another way to say this: Tax Waste, Not Work or Tax Bads, Not Goods. We need to remove all taxes on work and enterprise as we charge for the use of OUR natural environment: Land, Air, and Water. This will not only create more jobs and business but will provide the incentives to reduce the use of natural resources and, thus, launch a new industrial revolution of resource conserving technology.

    If you don???t understand this concept you might do well to pick up the latest copy of Harpers and read Michael Hudson???s article on taxing Land. Most people will understand his analysis. Unfortunately if you have been raised on neo-classical economics you may have to read Hudson???s article three or four times before you get it. But it will be well worth it.

    • Posted By: jckst @ 11/12/2008 10:52:43 PM

      Too, our country levies the highest corporate taxes in the world on businesses in operation in our country. Why the hell do you think our jobs are going overseas when the Chinese are offering 11% to our 35% tax on a company? Not to mention, an American company can pay a Chinese employee one third the salary Americans make and really make a killer of a profit.

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