A Post-Evangelical America

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  • Posted By: JeremyEllsworth @ 11/07/2008 10:40:09 AM

    I have a feeling that the study indicating "a quarter of atheists say they believe in a higher power or a universal spirit" might have been a bit off in its questions and/or analysis. Atheists believe there is no god or higher spirit. It is likely that they conflated atheists with agnostics.

    • Posted By: Livingwithcommonsenseandreason @ 11/09/2008 7:43:39 PM

      This person has obviously confused Atheists ( NO BELIEF IN A GOD ) with Agnostics ( THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEF IN A GOD, PER SE, BUT IN SOME KIND OF HIGHER POWER ).

    • Posted By: Dave in NM @ 11/07/2008 11:32:12 AM

      Actually, if you break down the word, "atheist" just means non-religious. "Theism" is not a belief in god, it is an organized system of worship - a religion. Put "a" on the beginning, and you have "not religious." So it is possible to believe there is something out there - some intelligent force - and not feel the need to heap praise and bribes on it in exchange for some promised paradise. Agnostics, by contrast, don't believe one way or the other in the absence of evidence, but will believe what they are shown to be worth believing, should that ever happen. In any case, I think it's just a little encouraging to see just a little mention of the fact that (by some estimates) 10% of Americans don't believe they were made by Benevolent Sky Man, who will put them up in the Eternal Theme Park if they just vote and give and think (well, believe) as they are told.

    • Posted By: The_Atheist @ 11/07/2008 10:58:35 AM

      I have not seen how the question was posed; however, if I had to guess, I would say they probably included agnostics and atheists in the same category. This could easily confuse the situation because many agnostics have trouble fitting into either a "belief" or "non-belief" role. Some of them might believe in the energy/spirit of a rock, plant, galaxy, waterglass, etc, etc.....), but not in the god(s) of any of the modern "organized" religions which 99.9999% of the polls/surveys would be referring to. I think it is basically a lack of thought on behalf of poll/survey creator.

  • Posted By: RodyMc @ 11/08/2008 6:58:33 PM

    "For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe in God, no explanation will suffice." I am thankful for having been raised a Christian. I am also thankful for having the opportunity to study, learn and discover all the wonderful things this world has to offer. Science, math, art, music, philosophy...so many incredible things to ponder. Many people have wrongly concluded that faith and reason are enemies when in fact, they compliment each other in all aspects of life. It makes little sense that anyone can look around at this world and think it all happened by chance and it formed from absolutely nothing. In contrast to the zealously religious, the obstinately atheist would want to take away anything in our world that speaks of a living God that loves us and wants us to be with Him for all eternity. All this being said, if ever a believer or non-believer is denied basic human rights or respect from someone who claims to believe in God, I am sorry for their ignorance and lack of charity.

  • Posted By: LilacAnne @ 11/08/2008 5:35:06 PM

    I am a "soccer mom" who volunteers regularly, is a Girl Scout leader, is mom to two "A" students, has never been out of work, doesn't sleep around, has never smoked, drinks little, and has never tried an illegal drug. Kind of a prude really. I am also a lifelong unapologetic atheist. I don't "get" religion. Some of the posts here have said that a life is nothing without God or Jesus. Well, I have never thought of my life as missing anything. In fact I feel like I have been given an abundance of riches--a home, friends, family, my healthy happy kids, etc..There is this feeling that I get from the zealously religious that somehow we atheists are resisting God at every turn or willfully acting against him. I go the whole day and never think of religion, or God or Hell or Heaven. It doesn't factor in. Even as a child, I never remember believing, because it never made sense. It makes less sense to me as an adult. I am often bewildered that people WANT to believe in all of it. But this is there choice and more power to them. And I should have the same choice--without be degraded as evil or a danger to the community. I just try to live life as a good person. Not afraid of Hell or concerned with going to Heaven. Like most atheists, I am more concerned with making this world heavenly. Atheists certainly are not immoral (total prude, remember?) or out to abolish religion. We understand that it is a comfort to many people and can do much good. We just want it to play nicer. We don't think it should be the bully who pressures us to believe or to play school yard pick-- excluding us non-believers from basic human rights and respect.

  • Posted By: mayans @ 11/08/2008 2:50:19 PM

    LOVE: I MAY BE ABLE TO SPEAK THE LANGUAGES OF HUMAN BEINGS AND EVEN OF ANGELS, BUT IF I HAVE NO LOVE, MY SPEECH IS NO MORE THAN A NOISY GONG OR A CLANGING BELL. I MAY HAVE THE GIFT OF INSPIRED PREACHING; I MAY HAVE ALL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTAND ALL SECRETS; I MAY HAVE ALL THE FAITH NEEDED TO MOVE MOUNTAINS-BUT IF I HAVE NO LOVE, I AM NOTHING. I MAY GIVE AWAY EVERYTHING I HAVE, AND EVEN GIVE UP MY BODY TO BE BURNED-BUT IF IHAVE NO LOVE, THIS DOES ME NO GOOD (1 COR. 13:1-10).
    SO THEN, AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, ALSO FAITH WITHOUT ACTIONS IS DEAD (JAMES 2:26).
    WHAT GOD THE FATHER CONSIDERS TO BE TRUE AND GENUINE RELIGEON IS THIS: TO TAKE CARE OF THE ORPHANS AND WIDOWS IN THEIR SUFFERING AND TO KEEP ONSELF FROM BEING CORRUPTED BY THE WORLD (JAMES 1:27).
    FOR WE CANNOT LOVE GOD, WHOM WE HAVE NOT SEEN, IF WE DO NOT LOVE OTHERS, WHOM WE HAVE SEEN (1 JOHN 4:20).
    IS GENUINE LOVE ONLY FOR THE CHRISTIANS? NO. THE STORY OF THE GOOD SAMARITAN EXPLAINES THIS ALL.

  • Posted By: mayans @ 11/08/2008 2:50:05 PM

    LOVE: I MAY BE ABLE TO SPEAK THE LANGUAGES OF HUMAN BEINGS AND EVEN OF ANGELS, BUT IF I HAVE NO LOVE, MY SPEECH IS NO MORE THAN A NOISY GONG OR A CLANGING BELL. I MAY HAVE THE GIFT OF INSPIRED PREACHING; I MAY HAVE ALL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTAND ALL SECRETS; I MAY HAVE ALL THE FAITH NEEDED TO MOVE MOUNTAINS-BUT IF I HAVE NO LOVE, I AM NOTHING. I MAY GIVE AWAY EVERYTHING I HAVE, AND EVEN GIVE UP MY BODY TO BE BURNED-BUT IF IHAVE NO LOVE, THIS DOES ME NO GOOD (1 COR. 13:1-10).
    SO THEN, AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, ALSO FAITH WITHOUT ACTIONS IS DEAD (JAMES 2:26).
    WHAT GOD THE FATHER CONSIDERS TO BE TRUE AND GENUINE RELIGEON IS THIS: TO TAKE CARE OF THE ORPHANS AND WIDOWS IN THEIR SUFFERING AND TO KEEP ONSELF FROM BEING CORRUPTED BY THE WORLD (JAMES 1:27).
    FOR WE CANNOT LOVE GOD, WHOM WE HAVE NOT SEEN, IF WE DO NOT LOVE OTHERS, WHOM WE HAVE SEEN (1 JOHN 4:20).
    IS GENUINE LOVE ONLY FOR THE CHRISTIANS? NO. THE STORY OF THE GOOD SAMARITAN EXPLAINES THIS ALL.

  • Posted By: mayans @ 11/08/2008 2:44:11 PM

    LOVE: I MAY BE ABLE TO SPEAK THE LANGUAGES OF HUMAN BEINGS AND EVEN OF ANGELS, BUT IF I HAVE NO LOVE, MY SPEACH IS NO MORE THAN A NOISY GONG OR A CLANGING BELL. I MAY HAVE THE GIFT OF INSPIRED PREACHING; I MAY HAVE ALL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTAND ALL SECRETS; I MAY HAVE ALL THE FAITH NEEDED TO MOVE MOUNTAINS-BUT IF I HAVE NO LOVE, I AM NOTHING. I MAY GIVE AWAY EVERYTHING I HAVE, AND EVEN GIVE UP MY BODY TO BE BURNED-BUT IF IHAVE NO LOVE, THIS DOES ME NO GOOD (1 COR. 13:1-10).
    SO THEN, AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, ALSO FAITH WITHOUT ACTIONS IS DEAD (JAMES 2:26).
    WHAT GOD THE FATHER CONSIDERS TO BE TRUE AND GENUINE RELIGEON IS THIS: TO TAKE CARE OF THE ORPHANS AND WIDOWS IN THEIR SUFFERING AND TO KEEP ONSELF FROM BEING CORRUPTED BY THE WORLD (JAMES 1:27).
    FOR WE CANNOT LOVE GOD, WHOM WE HAVE NOT SEEN, IF WE DO NOT LOVE OTHERS, WHOM WE HAVE SEEN (1 JOHN 4:20).
    IS GENUINE LOVE ONLY FOR THE CHRISTIANS? NO. THE STORY OF THE GOOD SAMARITAN EXPLAINES THIS ALL.

  • Posted By: mehr @ 11/08/2008 2:10:06 PM

    Most regretably it is an undeniable fact that since the past thirty years or so, fanaticism, religious bigotry and intolerance has receieved a shot in the arms in the USA and in a few other countries in the world. Almost all those involved in this "business" have always attempted and even been successfull in demeaning and belittling those practicing a religion other than theirs. "Big daddy" Bill Bennett once said: "Those believing in a faith other than Christianity are all doomed to misery."

  • Posted By: Andrew21 @ 11/07/2008 10:04:08 AM

    The most telling comment in this article is when the author says "the Pro-Obama faithful represent a wild diversity of the American religious experience...Indeed, it includes almost every committed person of faith except those who's church culture insist on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." The marginallization of those who have a personal relationship with Christ is something that Jesus himself said would occur in the last days and as such should come as no surprise. As time goes by, it will be harder and harder to straddle the fence on whether to follow a relationship with Christ or to share the world's insistance that there are many paths to God. At some point, those who have a relationship with Christ will have to take a stand for their faith and affirm that Jesus is "the way-the truth and the light--no man comes to the Father but by me" That's a pretty unambiguious statement that Jesus made (and wasn't very popular even back then).

  • Posted By: neeka @ 11/08/2008 12:20:49 PM

    I am a Christian who deeply believes in having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I also voted for Barack Obama. He does consider himself a Christian, but what his personal relationship with Jesus Christ is, is between him and Jesus Christ. I voted for the man based on what qualifications I thought he'd bring to the job as President. All of my friends who are Christians voted the same way. This is a misleading article.

  • Posted By: KultureKritic @ 11/07/2008 11:58:34 AM


    MTR1973 How can you say that you are not ???self righteous
    While clearly passing a condemming indictment on
    religious people?. This is what religion
    Haters do every time. They spew their intolerant ranting violating
    Every law of logic. They are a danger to free speech.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/08/2008 9:19:08 AM

      Wait. By exercising their freedom of speech, they're endangering free speech?

    • Posted By: Keegan9 @ 11/07/2008 1:58:33 PM

      Sorry, Kulture Kritic, but our first amendment right to free speech actually protects our right to spew hateful statements in violation of all logic if we so choose. I could point out that the statements we make actually are supported by the rules of logic established by the (you guessed it--PAGAN) Classical philosophers, while yours are circular and violate all the rules of logical discourse, but I suppose that would be "hateful" and beside the point. But I really must correct you on this: what we are saying IS free speech, hon, not a danger to it.

  • Posted By: greatmidwest @ 11/07/2008 11:28:11 PM


    President-elect Obama not only transcended our nation's cultural diversity, but also it's spiritual one as well.
    The obsolete thinking, the racial undertones, and the lack of inclusion of the McCain campaign was just one of many things that is wrong within the GOP in today's modern world.

  • Posted By: SouthernIL52 @ 11/07/2008 7:30:58 PM

    If God were, not was.......;

  • Posted By: SouthernIL52 @ 11/07/2008 7:29:43 PM

    If God was running for president today, the Evangelical "Christian Right" wouldn't vote for him, they wouldn't listen to him, and they would put a double meaning on everything he says. Additionally they would try to convince themselves that God didn't really mean it when he said to love your neighbor and judge not (and by the way, your money isn't going to help you get to heaven.

  • Posted By: KultureKritic @ 11/07/2008 12:21:00 PM

    What evidence do you have to deny God? What we see today is a militant atheism that violates all the laws of logic. How do you account for matter and life?. Science has some answers but when it boils down to the beginning of everything atheist MUST take a leap of fait to believe that something comes from nothing which in turn violates the principles of all science.

    • Posted By: Keegan9 @ 11/07/2008 1:50:10 PM

      Actually, the latest astrophysical research shows that there may ALWAYS have been something, that there was no beginning to the universe, just as there is no end and no boundaries. This actually makes sense considering the physical law that matter and energy can be neither created nor destroyed, only changed. This seems hard for us to understand as finite beings. Ironically, people of faith seem to be able to believe in the infinity and omnipresence of God, but they refuse to believe that the matter and energy making up our universe could have those very same qualities.

      Personally, I think that the origins (or lack thereof) of the universe are incomprehensible to most of us, and that the religious and scientific explanations we cling to are both products of our need for a concrete answer, just obtained by different methods. Maybe it doesn't matter whether you believe in matter/energy or if you choose to personalize the immensity and power of the omnipresent universe with the interface of an anthropomorphic God, as long as your beliefs give you comfort and certainty.

      But to get back to your question, I fear your logical argument has been disproved many times. It's a classic example of circular logic called the "first cause" argument. The argument first posits that everything must have a cause. If we trace all of these causes back to the beginning, then something must have "caused" the universe. Unfortunately, most Christians believe that nothing could "cause" God, or else that thing would be outside of and greater than the power of God. So the result of this line of reasoning is that everything must have a cause EXCEPT GOD, which negates the first position (i.e., that everything must have a cause) that started the line of reasoning. According to the rules of logic, if an argument is forced to negate the statement that it first posited, the argument itself cannot be held as valid.

  • Posted By: floridacadman @ 11/07/2008 9:41:37 AM

    These republicans are a lesson in hypocrisy. You dont want abortion or handouts, ok oh brilliant repubs, tell us where the money comes from to take 40 million unwilling mothers to the oby/gyn and then feed, cloth and house these unwanted children...God?
    Maybe you guys ought to spend some effort in defending a platform you can justify instead of touting your supersticious jargon. Personally I dont care if you believe in the Great Pumpkin, just leave it at home where it belongs so we can get something done in Washington.

    • Posted By: justapreacher @ 11/07/2008 9:48:23 AM

      ...but don't you see, without Him and Them, there can be nothing a true value "done" to use your word. If "everyone" that says, you don't have to him is right, I'm personally STILL is great shape.....if I and all those like me are right, where does that leave "everyone"?

      • Posted By: floridacadman @ 11/07/2008 9:50:07 AM

        huh?

        • Posted By: justapreacher @ 11/07/2008 10:23:40 AM

          "huh" pretty much sums it up.

          • Posted By: midwestinMA @ 11/07/2008 1:27:07 PM

            I believe the "huh" was due to the fact your post makes no sense, justapreacher. I'm not speaking about your ideas, but the English itself. I wouldn't be so quick to be smug about it.

          • Posted By: midwestinMA @ 11/07/2008 1:23:54 PM

            I believe "huh" is in reference to the fact your post makes no logical sense, justapreacher. I'm not talking about the idea, but the English. Please don't try to act smug about it.

  • Posted By: Emily4280 @ 11/07/2008 1:22:18 PM

    Amen. How dare ANYONE tell me that I am not Christian "enough" because my way of worship differs from theirs. I believe in God. I was raised Protestant. I pray regularly. Just because I attend a formal worship service sporatically and not every single week does not make me a heathen, terrible person. I treat everyone I meet with courtesy and respect, which is more than I can say for many "Born-again Christians" I have come across. As far as religion goes, my motto has always been, and always will be, TO EACH HIS OWN. Besides that, I have five words for you: Separation of church and state. Moral issues should not be political issues.

  • Posted By: KultureKritic @ 11/07/2008 12:03:16 PM


    The atheist worldview boldly states that religion is responsible for the injustices and genocides of the world but they ignore altogether that the blodiest regimes this world has seen were presided on by avowed atheists like Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler and Pol Pot.

    • Posted By: The_Atheist @ 11/07/2008 12:59:07 PM

      You really need to do a bit more research. Nobody has ever really figured out if Hitler considered himself religious or not.....but just to throw something out there for you to ponder, see the below quote.

      ???Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.???
      ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )

      Just because people do not believe in a god does not make them evil.......and the same goes for those who believe as well......that doesn't make them evil. What does create evil is when people decide to enforce their beliefs on those who do not want them. Whether by trickery, manipulation, shame, or all out war. We are all free to believe what we want to as long as it does not invade the freedoms of others.

  • Posted By: kerandi89 @ 11/07/2008 12:51:04 PM

    Whatever happened to separation of church and state? The Moral Majority and their Evangelical whites are the reason this lifelong Republican went over to the other side. That, plus the fact that we have an opportunity here to truly try a new approach... a non-WASP, outside-the-box revamping of the system. Obama's the closest thing to a non-partisan leader we've ever had, and to this I say: "Halelujah... it's about time"! Finally the founding fathers are getting their non-partisan, representative government.

  • Posted By: WidernessVoice @ 11/07/2008 10:13:57 AM

    Sadly, Andrew21 represents the closed-minded "my way to Christ only" right wing fringe of Christianity, with no recognition that Jesus may mean different things to different people, or that he might not be right in his interpretation.
    For Thourlon, it seems to me that if you are truly anti-abortion, you must be in favor of universal, free access to birth control, since that is the biggest way to cut abortion rates. Countries where abortion is illegal have the same abortion rate as those where it is legal, so overturning Roe v Wade would have no impact; birth cotnrol access does!

    • Posted By: Andrew21 @ 11/07/2008 12:50:46 PM

      Thanks for beautifully albiet unknowingly illustrating my point about the marginallization of those who "have a personal relationship with Christ". 40 years ago my beliefs were considered mainstream. 20 years ago my beliefs were "right-wing". Now those same beliefs are those of the "closed minded right wing fringe". And yet, they are the same beliefs. What's the next step?

    • Posted By: justapreacher @ 11/07/2008 10:18:52 AM

      The "one way" to a reationship with Christ was, no doubt, instilled by God to HELP make the plan to know him EASIER. The "many paths" that man have contrived would only make it complicated (IF they were right), and that could be confusing......and confusing is one thing that God is not.

      • Posted By: pauln44 @ 11/07/2008 12:17:44 PM

        Oh no, God can't be confusing. If he is confusing I can't find comfort, and I want comfort, so God must be simple.

        You have dumbed down God for easy consumption. You are like the person who looks out on a sea of exercise equipment and diet plans and thinks "thats too tough. I'll just get liposuction." God is not easy. God does not fit on a bumper sticker. You have denied the richness and diversity of God's earth for the comfort of a small box that keeps out all the evil you percieve at the expense of the wonder you can't begin to imagine.

      • Posted By: pauln44 @ 11/07/2008 12:17:02 PM

        Oh no, God can't be confusing. If he is confusing I can't find comfort, and I want comfort, so God must be simple.

        You have dumbed down God for easy consumption. You are like the person who looks out on a sea of exercise equipment and diet plans and thinks "thats too tough. I'll just get liposuction." God is not easy. God does not fit on a bumper sticker. You have denied the richness and diversity of God's earth for the comfort of a small box that keeps out all the evil you percieve at the expense of the wonder you can't begin to imagine.

  • Posted By: kerandi89 @ 11/07/2008 12:50:25 PM

    Whatever happened to separation of church and state? The Moral Majority and their Evangelical whites are the reason this lifelong Republican went over to the other side. That, plus the fact that we have an opportunity here to truly try a new approach... a non-WASP, outside-the-box revamping of the system. Obama's the closest thing to a non-partisan leader we've ever had, and to this I say: "Halelujah... it's about time"! Finally the founding fathers are getting their non-partisan, representative government.

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