The Gitmo Dilemma

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  • Posted By: toolkien @ 11/07/2008 5:18:05 PM

    It's amazing how fast the left media has had to back pedal between Obama's imminent election and now, basically going from how everything Bush did was wrong and sowing the Bushitler mindset to "well things aren't going to change THAT fast" and the world needs a Cop afterall....blah....blah....blah.

    Propaganda, pure and simple. MSNBC/Newsweek/Time = FOX

    Don't give a rip for any of you nor the candidates you thrust out there. It's all about the power and Beltway Games. The great unwashed are useful idiots, simple minds to be melded, sheep to be sheared.

    I can only hope when Obama and his gang flop people will wake up and look legitimately at third parties. I'd even take serioius progressives over Machine Democrats, at least I can agree with them that there is something systematically wrong with the two party system and at least get listened to my opposing opinions - not just shrugged off.

    But I digress, keep up the good work at the Propaganda Ministry - Goebbels would be proudl.

  • Posted By: archollie @ 11/07/2008 4:50:27 PM

    What a surprise. not.

    The democrats in power play their voters like fools. They are right.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 5:14:14 PM

      You are assuming the article speaks for Obama. It doesn't...it's just speculation.

  • Posted By: columbojones @ 11/07/2008 3:50:24 PM

    seriously....if no one wants them....just make them vanish. Who cares what happens to a bunch of crazy terrorists? I don't. They waged war on our country and have no rights or expectations to rights. We are too nice to criminals. Tie raw steak around their ankles and see if they can swim to Florida. If they make it...they get a trial by jury. If not....the fish in the gulf get a somewhat tasty treat. May sound overly simplistic and I doubt the liberal wimps who run Newsweek will publish it...but seriously they should all just die.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 5:08:25 PM

      "seriously....if no one wants them....just make them vanish."

      Including the Uighers?

      YAY! We're just like Pinochet! LOL.

  • Posted By: columbojones @ 11/07/2008 4:10:58 PM

    actually...bush could have solved the 911 issue in a day. tora bora should have been nuked. It allowed UBL to escape into pakistan. As should any hamlet with more than 2 people in Afghanistan. That country is a perfect place for nuke testing. We should invite China, Russia and India to our new international testing grounds (formerly known as the failed nation state of Afghanistan). Given the emotions and symapthy the world had for us at the time we could have easily done it.

  • Posted By: Cartoondog @ 11/07/2008 3:19:04 PM

    Um, 4Carol, using your argument, one could just as easily say, " Bush didnt create 9/11, and he couldnt be expected to solve it in a day..."

    These are not school children on their first day. Barack is running the top job on the planet. He knew what was waiting for him, and should be reminded regularly- Time to take the gloves off.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 3:24:37 PM

      Bush couldn't have solved 911 in a day.

      The problem is, he didn't solve it at all. OBL is still out there laughing at us.

  • Posted By: Robbs @ 11/07/2008 2:53:33 PM

    I say, let's take them to mid Atlantic and free them. Those whose country wants them and insures their conduct can take them home. Those remaining are free to make their way home the best way they can.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 3:23:37 PM

      Beria would be proud.

  • Posted By: 4carol @ 11/07/2008 3:03:07 PM

    Mr. Ephron:
    As a citizen of this country, I am appalled at your article. We have enough problems SCREAMING at the new president and he's not even in office yet. I realize that this will have to be faced, but did you have to SCREAM IT now??? Give the man a chance to at least appoint his cabinet and get in office!!!!! You sound like one of those who are going to be the first to jump on him. It is a shame; he did not create these problems and they were not created in a week or a month or more, but with the help of all he is going to do his best to fix them. I suggest a bit of support is in order as everything will take time!!!

  • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 11/07/2008 2:28:04 PM

    just before combat make sure you broadcast your enemies, their "rights" under the u.s. constitution over a bullhorn just in case they're unaware?

    • Posted By: Combat Goldfish @ 11/07/2008 2:33:56 PM

      lol. Yes, and drop arabic letters all around the middle east with our perfect laws written on them. :)

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 2:30:44 PM

      No, if they haven't read the Geneva convention, that's their problem...until they are in our jurisdiction.

  • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 11/07/2008 2:25:12 PM

    now we need someone who can read miranda rights in arabic for christs sake?

  • Posted By: seabiscuit @ 11/07/2008 1:30:49 PM

    In the aftermath of its warm, fuzzy glow, tears of joy are shed and proclamations made by people on their knees, hands clasped, looking gratefully skyward in thanks, sobbing women on the View, cry elation for a supposed landmark election for Civil Rights, an historic campaign for the first Black President.

    While Farrankan describes Obama as the ???coming new Messiah??? David Gerber on CNN likens him the ???Jeremiah to Martin Luther King???s Moses??? (huh boy???)

    As Oprah Winfrey triumphantly proclaims ???America did the right thing???,

    I seem to be the only one to notice that
    ??? gay people still aren???t allowed their constitutional right to free speech, to call their unions marriage, nor right to Taxation with representation and have legal marriage, that
    ??? the most qualified candidate, a woman, was dismissed in a media blizzard-smear campaign of misogyny, lies and phony polls, had to
    ??? beat her opponents in 21 consecutive debates, still loses to the most unqualified candidate in history simply because he is a man. He voted 131 times "present". We needed a Madam President, not a mr. present.

    He got more votes, for and against, than any other candidate in history. Americans remain divided more than ever.

    It???s time now for the corrupt Obama to return the favors to his corporate hedge-fund backers for the 90% of his raised 700 million, (oh, you thought it came from small donations on the internet? Ha, ha). They still own America (and Obama).

    Now delusional with a new sense of equal rights, America remains a hypocrisy ruled by corrupt corporate bigots.

    • Posted By: okay- @ 11/07/2008 2:13:24 PM

      Sour grapes anyone? If you really believed that Sarah Palin was the correct choice...Please refrain from embarrassing yourself any further. My 5th grader knows more about the world than Sarah Palin. It is almost too scary to think what would have happened if Palin became President. Our standing in the middle east is precarious at most and Palin would be crushed and would cause WWIII with her inability to reason. Thanks goodness that we will never have to find out, cooler heads will prevail now that a man who thinks and ponders after input from others. No more W and no more Cheney to sacrifice our sons and daughters for the rich.

  • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 11:25:47 AM

    Utter rubbish.

    Gitmo has never been necessary, and what kind of American supports the idea of holding people forever because the government might not win at trial?

    It goes against everything this nation was founded on. It's an abomination. Shut it down, and deal with the detainees either as POWs, or as criminals (ie, try them and punish them). Also, even the government agrees that the Uighers did nothing to America. What the hell are we holding them for?

    • Posted By: Bri777 @ 11/07/2008 1:50:56 PM

      Do you know how many Gitmo detainees have been released? It would help if the nonsense about holding people forever goes to the dustbin.

      • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 2:05:10 PM

        How many have not? The Uighers, according to our own government, have done nothing.

        Your argument is like saying we should let a bank robber off the hook because at least he only robbed one bank, and didn't rob the other bank across the street.

  • Posted By: whened @ 11/07/2008 1:55:18 PM

    "The detention center at Guantanamo Bay and the flawed justice system created to try terrorist suspects held there "??? This is the problem with the media. The system is flawed? Is that a fact or an opinion?

    I say take them all to the top of the Empire State Building, set a fire around them and let them choose to die in the flames or jump to their deaths. That would be justice.

  • Posted By: Rowann @ 11/07/2008 12:38:49 PM

    This article and many of the comments show how far America has strayed from its guiding principles in the last eight years. There is no controversy or difficult decision; America used to be a nation of laws and it's time we quit being a rogue nation and recovered our honor. These people are prisoners of the U.S. and they should be tried in established courts and either convicted or released in accordance with our laws and constitution.

    • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 11/07/2008 12:43:57 PM

      WHAT DOES THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION HAVE TO DO WITH A YEMENI? WHERE IN IT DOES IT SAY THESE RIGHTS BELONG TO THE "ENTIRE WORLD"?

      • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 12:48:01 PM

        The US constitution, and all related ratified treaties (the GC, etc) apply to all people in American custody, unless the clause in question specifically says otherwise. For example, amendment II's language states that it only applies to US Citizens. Amendments V, VI, and VIII have no such language, and thus apply to everyone in US custody.

        • Posted By: Larrykqc @ 11/07/2008 1:02:02 PM

          Doc, you must be smoking something. Absence of fact in the constitution has never been grounds for free interpretation. Courts have work on this for years. The entire contract and its elastic clause begin with the legal interpretation that it is applied to US citizens - unless spefically stated to the contrary. Study your constitutional law before trying to BS us.i

          • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 1:06:26 PM

            Rubbish. In fact, the very reason Bush set up Gitmo was as an attempt to do an end run around amendments V, VI, and VIII. Too bad the supreme court disagreed with him.

            • Posted By: Larrykqc @ 11/07/2008 1:17:51 PM

              You got it Doc, the action was subject to court interpetation. In this case, the Supreme Court. Thus the constitution does not automatically apply to detainees unless specifically mantioned. The action was a legal interpreation which has government the definiton of the constitution. Your assumption was rubbish.

              This has been an enjoyable debate, Doc. But one of us still has a job. Market is waiting for Obama's selection of Teasury Secretary. This will go a long way in defining Obama and his intent. I hope he can ignore the majority in both houses and he goes with a very intelligent choice.

              Later

              • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 1:44:25 PM

                "You got it Doc, the action was subject to court interpetation. In this case, the Supreme Court. Thus the constitution does not automatically apply to detainees unless specifically mantioned. "

                Incorrect. According to the SCOTUS finding (along with amendments X and XIV), the rights listed are inclusive unless the amendment in question specifically states otherwise (see above examples).

      • Posted By: Larrykqc @ 11/07/2008 12:54:49 PM

        Simplistic answer to a complex problem. When you are fighting rogue terroritst groups, international law means nothing - especially when the international court disapproved of our action. Foreign prisoners were never granted rights reserved for uS citizens in the constitution.. They were granted right sunder Geneva Convention which says nothing about a right to a court trial.

        Under the Geneva Convention and internaitonal law, the US did nothing illegal. The hue and cry you hear is from those who condemn us on a politcal basis. You may cry out this was morally wrong. But, you may not say it was illegal.

        • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 1:03:53 PM

          "Simplistic answer to a complex problem. When you are fighting rogue terroritst groups, international law means nothing "

          Nonsense. We are signatories to the GC, and article VI of the US constitution demands that we treat ratified treaties as the supreme law of the land.

    • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 11/07/2008 12:40:54 PM

      really? i don't remember trying german pow's in civilian courts during wwii? PLEASE ENLIGHTEN US?

      • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 12:49:18 PM

        Who says the trials have to be in civilian courts? The gripe here isn't jurisdiction, it's indefinite detention with neither trial nor POW status.

        • Posted By: Rowann @ 11/07/2008 1:21:38 PM

          That was my arguement; whatever these people may or may not have done, we have become a nation that "disappears" prisoners, locking them up for as long as we want, wherever we want, and they have no recourse and no rights. We used to condemn nations that did this but now we have become what we used to despise.

    • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 11/07/2008 12:42:06 PM

      WHOE

  • Posted By: brydges @ 11/07/2008 12:55:40 PM

    people who act like animals should be treated as animals

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 1:02:06 PM

      So you think the guards who tortured people should be punished?

      • Posted By: Larrykqc @ 11/07/2008 1:11:26 PM

        Absolutely they should be punish for torture. That was established in the Geneva Convention (of which we are a signatory). The entire Nuremberg thing covered cruel and unusual abuse to (Mainly) Jewish detainees.
        Just be careful with your deficition of "torture". The legal definition is vague and subject to court interpretation. it must be a world court as well. Holding a prisoner indefinitely is not torture, The jpanese do not have habeus corpus in their law. No big international uproar either.

        Most of this crap is political. Are we doing the right thing? I would have to say "no". It is neither right nor moral. But, the extreme anit-Bush (and his doctrine) groups make assumptionms on legality that cannot be supported.

        • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 1:41:56 PM

          "Just be careful with your deficition of "torture"."

          Waterboarding is a fine example of torture. Some other methods are acceptable (loud noises, yelling, etc), and some are not (kneeling on broomhandles, cold water immersion, etc).

  • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 11/07/2008 1:04:40 PM

    THE 3300 KILLED ON 911,WHERE ARE THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS?

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 1:07:26 PM

      Did the US government kill them? You're not one of those 911 Truther nuts, are you?

  • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 11/07/2008 12:49:10 PM

    HERE'S AN IDEA,LINE ALL 250 UP AND SHOOT THEM,THEN CLOSE GITMO!

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 1:04:59 PM

      Wow. You sound like Stalin.

  • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 11/07/2008 12:46:14 PM

    IF OUR CONSTITUTION COVERS THE ENTIRE WORLD THEN WHAT ABOUT WOMANS RIGHTS IN SAUDI ARABIA?WHY ARN'T WE DEFENDING THEIR RIGHTS? AND WHY DON'T WE INVADE N/KOREA,THOSE PEOPLE ARE BEING DENIED THEIR AMERUICAN CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS!!!

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 1:02:36 PM

      Are those women in American custody?

  • Posted By: Larrykqc @ 11/07/2008 12:43:49 PM

    Here's an idea. Close Gitmo and about 100 other US bases in foreign countries (out of 260 in 100 countries). Dump the 250 in their country of record without agreement since the number of terrorist is too big to worry about another 250 - especially since we have identified these 250. If we capture new terrorist, we can dump them on the UN with our blessings.

    Other alternatives may include putting all 250 on an old 747. Give pilot one parachute and a point to exit said plane. Then,terrorist could recreate the feeling the American hostages had as they flew in WTC.

    Try the Viet Nam Infantry approach to prisoners (I was there) Radio in when you have a body count of captured and dead. "Victor Bravo, this is Alpha 5, we have ten enemy KIA and two captured".

    "Alpha 5, this is Victor Bravo. Call back when you have 12 KIA. out"

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 12:51:57 PM

      So, the idea is that we should deal with criminals by being criminals.

      No thanks.

  • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 11/07/2008 12:34:27 PM

    Why even take prisoners? SHOOT THEM ON SITE!

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 12:50:51 PM

      Well, that didn't happen. So now we have to follow the law.

      Blame Bush. He set the rules of engagement.

  • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 11/07/2008 12:38:36 PM

    i can see it now,read every P.O.W. his MIRANDA RIGHTS?! freaking liberals?

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/07/2008 12:49:57 PM

      We aren't talking about POWs. We're talking about detainees. There's an enormous difference.

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