In Defense of Detroit

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  • Posted By: Bobber99 @ 11/15/2008 10:29:15 PM

    Just throwing money at the Big Three will do absolutely nothing to solve this problem and only put off the inevitable. For the most part they produce a good product thanks to competition from the Japanese Automakers. The US manufacturers have are at a serious disadvantage from a cost standpoint. Until this is corrected no amount of money will solve the problem unless the Government holds a gun to our head and forces us to buy a vehicle from one of the Big Three. I have never heard of an industry that pays people for doing nothing. The reason why they don't make a lot of small fuel efficient vehicles is because they cannot make money on them, The UAW should have figured this out long ago. Corporate executives have certainly been overpaid for performance but the cost of their pay packages are still dwarfed by the costs related to contracts with the UAW over the years. The UAW would be wise not to kill the golden goose. Look at employees who retired from companies such as International Harvester who went Bankrupt. Ask them about their retirements and see if looking back they should have done whatever it took to keep the company in a healthy financial condition. Don't go throwing good money after bad. Make them come to the table with a plan that addresses the realy problem: Costs.

  • Posted By: lanceraye @ 11/15/2008 12:21:08 AM

    : McLovinB

    Hello that comment "the buck stops here" was not FDR but Truman. Get you facts straight man.

    • Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/15/2008 8:42:15 PM

      Oh yeah. Oh well. Everyone, please feel free to think everything I say is a lie in spirit and fact. I encourage everyone to check the facts just as LANCERAYE did.

      I guess you can tell I don't get paid to do this, right? Haha. And you get what you pay for.

  • Posted By: derik @ 11/15/2008 7:28:52 AM

    In my opinion, if we all buy Japanese cars that seem to be made here anyhow wouldn't all those suppliers and "jobs" end up in the Japanese automakers supply chain pipeline? In the transition of this supply chain we could have some integration issues, after which everything gets nice once more. Obviously, we would never again have the opportunity to buy a large gas guzzler to ride around town.

    • Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/15/2008 8:39:27 PM

      The Japanese supply chain for production in any country mostly includes indigenous suppliers. There are Japanese plants all over the US employing American people already.

      Japanese managers dont wake up in the morning thinking about the weekend, or golf games or private jets. They want to make great cars. If they cant make their dream cars, they are content to make someone's dream car. Doesn't sound much like Detroit, does it? Their CEOs make a fraction of what Big Three CEOs make. Labor relations are much better. Layoffs are fewer. They quietly go about their business of making great cars. That is what they do. America used to be like that.

      Toyota has not cancelled plans for a factory in Mississippi scheduled for 2010.

  • Posted By: mjkoch @ 11/15/2008 8:36:24 AM

    The American public have no responsibility whatsoever to bailout a manufacturer who cannot produce a quality product that people want to purchase. No other car manufacturer in the world needs a government bailout because they are building quality products that people want to buy.

    I own my own software company. If I produce products that are unstable and buggy and less and less people want to purchase them every year is it the responsibility of the American taxpayer to bail my business out??

    There is no accountability and responsibility in our country any longer. Sometimes people that received mortgages for homes they cannot afford need to lose their homes. Sometimes people who have car loans for cars they could never afford need to lose their cars, and sometimes people who cannot control their credit card expenditures need to lose access to credit.

    Businesses who produce a poor product need to let the market, not the government, decide their fate. It's inexcusable, every year that Comsumer Reports annual automobile issue comes out, to have American car manufacturers receive the lowest rating for quality.
    Whose fault is that? The government? The American people? Let GM and Ford go out of business. If you cannot produce a decent product that people want to buy then you do not deserve to remain in business, let alone receive a bailout. The bailout is nothing more than a bandaid for manufacturers who will continue to produce poorly made and designed and constructed cars.

    These same CEO's mocked Toyota (and the demand for hybrids) and the Prius which has an eighteen month waiting list and continued to produce junk and we should not allow them to continue to get away with their mismanagement of an industry. The American buying public has already decided on the fate of these companies by prefering to purchase cars from Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Volvo, Saab, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volkswagen, Hundai, etc. etc.

    Let the marketplace decide their fate, not the American taxpayer.

    • Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/15/2008 8:32:07 PM

      Amen to that, and ESPECIALLY the ETC. ETC. part.
      No other major manufacturer in any country that I know of has asked its government for a bailout, and I am including producers of trucks and other vehicles in that.
      I heard that interest rates in India spiked as much as 10 points in a single day recently, but their economy has been moving on. People are still buying cars there.
      INDIA! INDIA PEOPLE! The successful companies are not just Japanese. The Italians, the Koreans, the Swedes, (by the way, I think Nissan is a GM subsidiary), are ALL still successful.

      It is a mistake to point a finger at Americans and say that they are to blame for this. It is the US automotive industry that made a long series of stupid mistakes. that NOBODY ELSE MADE. It is not even bad luck. It is hubris, arrogance, greed and sloth.

  • Posted By: Mysticcook @ 11/15/2008 8:31:00 PM

    why do people always bring up spelling and grammar errors.Who cares , get rid of Unions bunch of problems solved. The big three quit pushing gas guzzling trucks, suv your cash cows! Americans realize less is more quit buying the 40,000.oo dollar car etc. I know I dont see them or think that person is better than me I laugh whos he trying to impress the bank that car owns you! dumb ass same with house Banks love you, home equity 2nd mortage all signs you r living in a dream world. Goto a couple estate sales thats all your crap sitting there except maybe 5 percent that your family or creditors took. And capital punshment for 4 those at the top that made bad choices screw wall street. I can buy older american trucks 4 500 600 bucks all day long cant touch a foreign truck 4 less 1500 reasonable same condition why is that cause they make a better vechile hands down.What they only make 15.00 hr wow so what so they dont own a fancy car whos happier or better does it matter? i could go on 4 ever When u die u die your stuff is divided up thats it u worked so hard 4 it 2 course im linda thinking buddism is the way to go especially if u dont like what the goverment is doing with your tax dollars (dont give them any) mystic

  • Posted By: pezled @ 11/15/2008 9:09:09 AM

    Maybe if hourly minimum wage was equal to the average hourly pay of the people building these cars, they would have more people able to afford buy new cars and increase their sales. Personally, I think it is because they make crappy cars as well. I haven't bought an American car in many years. My Honda is reliable and gets great mileage - never breaks down. I own a business. If I make a crappy product and pay my employees too much and I go broke - who's going to bail me out?

    It would be smarter for all the Big 3 employees to take accept ownership of the company in lieu of wages and take a paycut/lower benefits package across the boards to make them profitable. Of course, they'll still have to figure out how to make better cars......

    • Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/15/2008 8:24:43 PM

      This might be a great idea.
      Have the government just buy up all the GM stock at 2 bucks a share or something, and just give it to the workers. Let them vote their union in or out. Let them make their own deals with governments and foreign car makers.
      There it is. Pretty and legal. The workers will have no one to complain to if they fail. If they succeed, more power to them. If someone steals from them like the current management, well, then it will be one of their own.

  • Posted By: MattBoynton @ 11/15/2008 8:09:29 PM

    I make about $14 per hour and it infuriates me that taxes might be taken out of my check to pay for some walking-dead dinosaur company like GM and $73 per hour UAW workers. They refuse to make quality vehicles with good gas milage that are more affordable than the completion. They are just an international company like Honda in Ohio (Mexico plants, etc). When our kitchen puts too much salt and ruins a dish we don't pick out each grain -easier to wipe the slate clean and start over again without all the baggage. If they get a bail out, I want one too. Bailing out is moral hazard -it rewards bad decisions -look it up!

  • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/15/2008 7:31:42 PM

    Have the big three actually proposed some changes, or are we just expected to throw money at them indefinitely?

  • Posted By: aibicnara @ 11/15/2008 4:13:40 PM

    GM's management argues that the very act of filing for bankruptcy eliminate the possibility of recovery, since people would be reluctant to purchase expensive, long-lived assets (cars and trucks) from a bankrupt entity.

    In September 2005 Delta Airlines filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, it reorgainzed, survived a hostile takeoever attempt by US Airways, and reemerged from bankruptcy in April 2007. People did not stop flying Delta because of the bankruptcy. People will not stop buying cars because of the bankruptcy if the price is right and quality is good.

    • Posted By: bighappy @ 11/15/2008 7:30:33 PM

      I will not stop buying Fords or GM cars if they are restructuring themaselves under Chapter 11. These car are pretty good (almost good as Japanese ones but cost less and are cheaper to repare), but if I know that they have been bailed out and in the same poor shape and definitely have no future - I would think before buying anything from them.

  • Posted By: American Carman @ 11/15/2008 7:27:13 PM

    I have work for GM and Toyota and now do some consulting for Ford.
    We should NOT bail out these big 3 losers. We should let them go bust,
    This will enable us to kill the UAW who are the root cause of the problem. They are nothing more than organized crime mafias.
    STOP THE BAILOUT AND LET THEM SINK

  • Posted By: l2lone@hotmail.com @ 11/15/2008 6:07:07 PM

    How many automakers making how models do we need anyway? It's time to restrike the balance between corporate greed and corporate survival.
    STOP THE BAILOUTS

  • Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 4:38:36 PM

    I heard lately new argument (I believe Democrats will start repeating it) - we need these automakers for the sake of national security (new tanks, armor cars, ets.). What a bunch of crap!

    • Posted By: DWPitts @ 11/15/2008 2:25:52 PM

      After reading your many comments on this board this morning, I have come to the conclusion the only thing you really know is how to savor the destruction of America. And yes, armored vehicles are made by GM, sorry to disappoint.

      Want to really blow your mind into literally thousands of little shards of nothingness? Do you know what the M stands for in M16? If you are going to relish the destruction of America, at least, take the time to learn what America is. Or isn't. You might be surprised.

      No matter how this works out, bailout or not, it is part of a larger macroeconomic nightmare that has already begun to unfold. For instance, approximately 1 in 6 jobs in the United States are dependent on the manufacture of automobiles. Take those out, and you multiply 10 fold what has already started to happen. The cascading failures will accelerate as the manufacturing value chains collapse. And then, when survival has nothing to do with your own performance, what will become of your precious Ayn Rand BS theories, when mothers cannot afford to feed their babies?

      Drive around the largest town near you and examine the car dealerships, all of them; Japanese, American, European. Notice the similarities? The problem is much larger than the UAW and the Big Three. And if you paid attention, you would have noticed the Japanese Nikkei is more battered than the Dow. Find out what's actually happening with the Japanese automakers. I realize you take comfort in the "grass is always greener", but you are deceiving yourself with fool's gold.

      For your edification, every Japanese company is owned by one of the Japanese sogo soshas, who own virtually everything in Japan (including setting national policy and controlling interest behind the scenes at the Bank of Japan). They own all sides of the manufacturing value chain, and their revenues are massive in relation to a typical American corporation. Is that what you really want? Not free enterprise, but everything divided up between a few trading houses.

      If this is what you propose, just say it. If so, STFU in regards to survival of the fittest, unions as mega-villains, and all the foolishness you have espoused today and based on "And Atlas Shrugged". Because what you are espousing is a closed, paternal society made up of a very few individuals who control everything. I guess that's what Haliburton is then, the first American sogo...

      I could explain the problem to you (macroeconomic impotence in the face of microeconomic failure), but I have little faith that you would: a) understand me; and, b) care to hear what a global economic implosion actually means for people. What is happening is nothing to be so damned happy about. So go on, tell me to "get the hell off your lawn".

      Sorry to interfere with your personal enjoyment in the wake of America's destruction. Please return to your regularly scheduled program of hatred and ignorance.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/14/2008 4:46:46 PM

      Sure. We could have the Chinese make our tanks for us, right?

      • Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 4:55:39 PM

        Are you seriously believe that we don't have companies becides Big 3 (I even doubt they produce those tanks) capable of producing tanks? If not - as Israelis, they have even beter tanks.

        • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/14/2008 5:38:20 PM

          Can you name a company other than GM that is tooled to make tanks?

          On the other hand, why not take this bailout money, and help a company that succeeds retool to make our AFVs?

          Then we push the Big3 off the ledge, and forget they ever existed.

          • Posted By: 2gofer @ 11/14/2008 5:48:57 PM

            Caterpillar and John Deere could make tanks quite easily. They have the critical components and fabrications are part of their skill set.

            • Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 9:55:46 PM

              But BigHappy would just as soon continue to send trillions to Halliburton, being the solid GOPer that he is.

          • Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 5:54:22 PM

            I can not tell you who produces our modern tanks (probably it is Goverment secret), but it is very unlikely GM (except probably tiny part), so such companiese probably already exist.
            And I agree about pushing Big 3 them off the ledge

  • Posted By: rube @ 11/15/2008 1:26:17 PM

    Its sickening how the GOP gave total no-bid contracts to the halliburtons worth billions upon more billions
    for the privatization of certain sectors involving war- security, transportation, food delivers services and so on!
    These entities were services that the military could and should have done for themselvesfor a smaller monitary percentage comparied to private companies such as Halliburton- its called fleecing, bilking its fraud. The Bush and the GOP gave their blessing to this un-american way of doing business - privatizing the wealth yet they cant work out a plan to restructure reorganize and fix the American auto industry! The neocon plutocrats have burnt down ol glory and her greatness- all for greed and their ego driven policies! They should be going to prison- retirement is not good enough! And they can take the auto ceos/execs with them!
    !

  • Posted By: 427ed @ 11/15/2008 1:05:05 PM

    Let all the people who have been sucking the life out of the auto industry ( Unions, Top execs, towns etc) cough up the dough and save themselves.

  • Posted By: peace4all1 @ 11/15/2008 12:40:20 PM

    The problem of BIG There is completely caused by their own doing, i.e.. Auto executives and UAW, accumulated over the past decades, not caused by the recent financial crisis. Therefore Auto industry has to fix their own mess and hope that t at least BIG TWO can survive. Otherwise, those guys will just keep the same status without making any improvement such that five years from now none of them will survive/

  • Posted By: peace4all1 @ 11/15/2008 12:38:56 PM

    The problem of BIG There is completely caused by their own doing, i.e.. Auto executives and UAW, accumulated over the past decades, not caused by the recent financial crisis. Therefore Auto industry has to fix their own mess and hope that t at least BIG TWO can survive. Otherwise, those guys will just keep the same status without any making improvement such that five years from now none will survive.

  • Posted By: trogers @ 11/15/2008 11:44:09 AM

    The free market advocates want the auto industry to collapse. They want management to pay for their incompetence, and they want to punish the unions for their greed.Somehow the failure of the industry would vindicate their belief that capitalism works. In a nation where over a third of all economic activity is due to government spending, they cling to the notion that we live in a free market. The reality is that in many parts of America the government is the economy. Ever been to a town with a large public university, or a large military base? Survival of the fittest belongs on the animal planet. Our nation has long since become dependent on government jobs, government programs and government funds. If the auto industry needs government help to survive they would be no different than the farmers or the defense industry or the infrastructure contractors who survive on government subsidys, contracts and pork barrel projects. Sending a few billions to Detroit does not threaten an economic system already based upon government programs.

    • Posted By: nimbus @ 11/15/2008 12:23:35 PM

      So let???s reward mediocrity and throw more tax money that we do not have at the problem, rather than fix the problem. You must either work for the big 3, or the government! With that type of logic, no wonder this economy is in the tank.

  • Posted By: gary goldbladt @ 11/15/2008 10:32:49 AM

    If it weren't for the unholy union between the UAW and the Reaganites, Jimmie Carters plan for energy independance would have come to fruition by now.
    Let GM pass on.

  • Posted By: auburnguy @ 11/15/2008 10:10:47 AM

    Every 'point' that the author makes gives me a stomach ache. The moment, I mean the very second Detroit didn't have to try to make a good car to make a profit they didn't. They decided to focus on SUV's and trucks. I remember the quote from the CEO of GM several years back when he was asked why they were shifting production to larger truck based vehicles. He said "this strategy worked for Ford so we are going to try it as well". Yet somehow the Japaneese manufacturers, and lately the Europeans, have successfully built cars IN AMERICA that are reliable, efficient, and PROFITABLE!

    8 years ago I tried to buy an American made sports sedan. I looked at all of the Big 3's products. I waited in the lobby of a Cadiliac dealer for 40 minutes for someone to show me a car. Nobody even approached me. Now, I was in my early 30's so maybe they simply knew that I would never buy the STS but they never even came over to discuss the car. The Detroit manufacturers are broken. The ONLY way to fix these guys is to push them into bankruptcy and let a new set of people start over. Everyone is trying to say that if GM goes Chapter 11 that somehow the US auto industry will never recovery. BS. The same kind of crap was being stated when AT&T was broken up. The US telecommunication industry was never going to be able to compete again! The fact is that the telecommunications industry blossomed after AT&T was broken up. Maybe this will happen to the US auto industry too. Maybe not. But at least it will be forced to start behaving differently than it has for the last 15 years and that can only be a good thing

  • Posted By: nimbus @ 11/15/2008 9:35:40 AM

    Now I konw why I no longer read Snoozeweek. Another 25 billion TAXPAYER dollars for what? Bloated union contracts? CEO pay? Cars that basically suck? Mismanagment? And you think govt can do any better! Get real or take your morning meds.

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