No more bailouts. Let the "big three" file Chapter 11 and re group. If the middle class has to suffer and are losing their homes...what makes them any better. If I got paid on Friday and mismanged all of it, do you think my company will give me more money until the next payday? Well, for the place I work at, no . I will have to suffet the consequeces of my behavior. Let the "big three" and anybody else do the same.
In Defense of Detroit
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Posted By: Lt Johnson @ 11/15/2008 8:38:20 AM
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Posted By: VerbalHarpoon @ 11/15/2008 2:12:36 AM
Oh I forgot about my child -support,do I have to pay it all at one time? Or can I make payemnts? After the IRS is done of course,can't be getting caught on everyone at the same time.
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Posted By: VerbalHarpoon @ 11/15/2008 2:00:32 AM
Someone else thinks consumers should get the bailout-billions? How will CEO's get their lunch money? Could it mean that entire families across the USA will actually be able to survive? My car is only 7 years old,would I be allowed to fix it or do I have to buy a new one? Will I have to move out of the shack I live in now and possibley buy a home ? Who will I answer to for making the wrong choices? I know the government isn't just going to hand me money and not expect me to use it wisely. There must be something I could do with it...maybe I'll invest in Wall Street! Those MBA's & CEO's certainly must know how to use it much wiser than I. I'll just waste it on food,electricity,water,insurance,rent,education,doctor visits,medicines,taxes,clothes for me and my family,donations to my church,vacations,save for retirement...is golf an expense..or was is duck hunting,I always forget which form to use on them. But I did remember bass fishing goes under "research & developement!"
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Posted By: MBert @ 11/15/2008 1:24:10 AM
I agree with your summation on what needs to be done for survivoral of The Big Three, stated in the 2nd to last paragraph as "the Big Three need to shrink their capacity by 40 percent, recruit new managers and corporate boards, restructure...yada, yada, yada." The problem is that after dumping in money we will still be left with the SAME group of CEO's & corporate managers, doing the SAME things! What about the Chrysler bailout back of late 1979?
Those loan guarantees let Chrysler live on. But Chrysler never went on to become stronger, build better cars and regain true marketshare. It never learned how to really compete with the Jap cars. And here we are again!
It's a real shame - upper management ruined these companies, not the workers. And don't forget the lobbyists, the unions and the lousy politicians who had a hand in this. THEY ALL LOOK OUT FOR THEIR OWN SELF-INTERESTS INSTEAD OF THE LONG TERM GOOD OF THE COMPANY & COUNTRY!
It's time to rebuild! NO BAIL OUTS!!! Look at what the AIG Corp Exec's did - a half million dollar spa vacation while the company was getting bailed out! Let's not repeat our mistakes. Cut out the weak, bury the dead and move on and hopefully learn from this.
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Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/14/2008 9:37:47 PM
OK. Here is a constructive idea.
Just GIVE it to the Japanese to run. Let them do the whole thing. Guarantee them a market. Let them break any contracts they want to. Let them do it their way. Their companies have thrived during the last 20 years of their recession.
Japanese management has shown that it is STELLAR, not greedy, and that it takes care of employees.
I would guarantee that the quality would be improved and that these companies would be something to be very proud of in five or ten years. Imagine. Green technology, by which the Japanese are years ahead. Good employee relations. Humble CEOs. A work ethic. An emphasis on safety and fuel efficiency. They will fire whomever they have to, but not one person more. You know what I mean. They will do a good job and will not have private jets for heaven's sake.
You could think of it as surrender, or you could think of it as an old friend helping you out with a problem that you dont know how to fix.
If you want to continue operations, but you dont want to reward a loser, you should find a winner to run the operations for you. Toyota announced that its sales have dropped by more than half year-on-year. Guess what. Its stock is 30 dollars a share, not 30 cents a share. That means something.
So what is the cost to you and me? Well, it CANT be as much as the greedy Big 3 CEOs want and it CANT be as bad as letting things fail and it CANT be as much as probably anything in between.
Could I add that if you think this is a bad idea, consider that you will be driving a Japanese car someday anyway. Might as well be now.-
Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 9:44:49 PM
I remember in post-Soviet Russia they suggested something like this Japanese model etc.. Their prime-minister answered that Russia did not have enough Japanese to accomplish it. Do we?
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Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/14/2008 10:32:03 PM
That's a joke, right?
Japan already has many plants operating safely, cleanly and happily in the US. See how unobtrusive they are? You dont read about them. You dont hear about them. All they do is wake up in the morning and produce great cars and then get ready for a new day. No scandals, no private jets or midnight orgies. No screwing the US taxpayer, that is for sure. Not citizens, but great corporate citizens. Nobody does it better.
The GM Geo.. I think it was... was actually a SUZUKI car with a GM logo on it. SUZUKI!! It was sold as teh CULTUS in other countries. SUZUKI!!! It really does make me laugh. I mean that is a second or third tier Japanese company producing cars for GM because GM could not hack it. I think they stopped selling them in the US, but the aftermarket is strong because they got great mileage and did not break down.
Frankly, as I have been mulling this, I am thinking that no respectable Japanese auto company would accept the challenge, even given the incentives. The politics the lawyers the hassles OY VEY! Who needs it. But viewed in that light.... if the Japanese would walk away from the big 3, then the situation cant be saved.
Good money after bad, peeps. If the company could be saved, Volkswagen or Toyota would be buying the stock. If they dont want to be GM owners, why would you?-
Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 10:44:31 PM
1. This is not a joke, it was saif in real debates.
2. Not everything Japanese do is good (look at their agricuture or last 10 years of economic crisis).
3. Japanese managers definitely did and can do many good things on US soil, but we have a lot of American talanted managers, but in such place as in Detroit their hands always will be tied. Releive Detroit from unions (I doubt it ever happen, even for respectful Japanese guests), and we will have new auto boom there, even without Japanese.-
Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/14/2008 11:58:11 PM
Not everything the Japanese do is good. Thanks for clarifying that. I will just let that float in the ether as a tribute to your insight.
I am kind of thinking that this is not the time to be reassuring people about management talent in the US. All of these industries are chock full of MBAs, motivational speakers, and PowerPoint producers: automotive, arilines, commercial banking, insurance, mortgage lenders, mortgage brokers, investment banking, electronics retailing. Hmmm. fail fail fail fail fail fail fail and fail. Can it be true that Walmart has more genius than all others combined? Must be. They will make more money this year than all of those industries combined.
I mean, honestly, based on their performance, Buffy the Vampire Slayer would have been a better leader of US business. And how can they be judged fairly if not on their performance?.
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Posted By: RanchoT @ 11/14/2008 10:54:37 PM
The auto makers deserve to be helped out of this mess. It was congress that got them into it. Congress's failure to inact a comprehensive energy policy allowed us to be held up by the mid eastern oil tzars which caused a marked decline in auto sales. Then due to Freddy and Fanny's failures which was brought on directly by congress's lack of oversite, although they were warned several times over the past several years
this would happen. Help the auto makers recover and then vote out all the crooks. Maybe establish term limits for congress, both the house and the senate.-
Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/14/2008 11:46:36 PM
whoa whoa Congress is to blame because it told Detroit it could ignore environmental issues and sound business practices? What does an MBA mean then? Nothing?
It is the other way around. The big 3 lobbied Congress for lax EPA standards. Did you know that the CITY HIWAY MPG is not even calculated now? Why? Because the Japanese car ratings were off the charts. Detroit got the EPA to adopt a "composite rating", which you see on cars and ads now, which makes the Japanese cars, well, not so stunningly great, only excellent. And then, the US Senate voted NOT to ratify COP6, an international accord that ALL Japanese companies adhere to. Heavy lobbying by Detroit can take a lot of the blame there, but Bush had his hand in that debacle too.
But the Big 3 COULD HAVE taken the high road and done the right thing anyway. But no. They produced SUVs, marketed SUVs, lobbied for tax breaks for SUVs, provided crazy financing for SUVs. Energy efficient car producers and consumers got bupkus.
In short Big 3 management is terminally stupid or terminally corrupt. Hey. WHy not both? But the point is, OTHER companies in other countries did not have any of that coddling by Congress and could not lobby the US or other governments for help. THEY STILL SUCCEEDED!. Helping Detroit puts your stamp of approval on Detroit and puts your descendants on the hook for its theft and stupidity.
So... you ok with that? Travel to any country and they will point at you and laugh. You ok with that? Your kids will wonder where your college savings went. You ok with that? Big 3 CEOS lighting birthday candles with 100 dollar bills and laughing their heads off at how they can get away with anything. You ok with that?
FDR said it best and it is not mentioned in the article.
The BUCK stops here.
I would probably use another word besides BUCK in regard to this automaker bailout, but that is just me. -
Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 11:22:48 PM
How it was Congress fault?? Even with $1 per gallon, Big 3 were hardly profitable (even losing money on sedans), losing market share to Japanese and even Europeans. And these times will never come back.
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Posted By: lamikeman @ 11/14/2008 8:12:58 PM
Why not just pay the UAW to go away...far away. Let's save GM, Ford, and Chrysler so they can continue to build inferior cars based on decades old technology without innovation. Let's continue to pay union workers high wages to do an inferior job. Yes, let's save the US auto industry!
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Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 8:58:29 PM
Only reason Democrats have that they represemt America, are our icon, it is patriotic to save them etc. I thought USA is represented by the most innovative technology, that our icon is Statue of Liberty and Wall Street, not this Big unionized rotten "Tree".
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 9:33:26 PM
Your myopic view is limiting your sense of right and wrong, like any and all political extremists. You're really not much different than the Taliban. You both think you're 100% right and the rest of the world is 100% wrong.
Take some Haldol and return to reality.-
Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 9:56:35 PM
Last time I heard, Taliban supported Democrats. I still do not think that because of it Democrats are terrorists, and I also tolerate their rights to have their own view, or be morons which have nothing smart to say.
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 10:13:29 PM
Last we saw 6 billion people did a cartwheel on Nov 5th, regardless of your childish remarks.
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Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 10:34:24 PM
Where did you find 6 billion adult people on the Earth? But partially you are right, I heard similar amount of people danced on the streets after 9/11. If they were right that time, they are right now, As one of them said "Damn you, America".
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 10:45:11 PM
Who said they were all adults? There were just relieved, including most English and Europeans.
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Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 11:11:03 PM
1. Yes, I imagine how babies and little kids (6 billions!) were relieved that those terrible americans will not exploit and eat them any more.
2. I heard that Europeans were split 50/50.
3. That is enough, speak economy, stupid.
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Posted By: Farmboy @ 11/14/2008 10:18:16 PM
Q. Do you know why it is so easy to argue with union scum?
A. Because all their arguments make them sound like a bunch of whiners, looking for a free hand-out!
All the same, it is dangerous to speak out against the union, if you live in a union town. Those slimeballs will threaten your wife and kids, slash your tires, etc. They are a bunch of cowards
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Posted By: adafgdfa @ 11/14/2008 6:31:51 PM
Another ill informed commentary on the US auto industry....please go get factual information first, then proceed from there...the Big 3 are a disgrace...please, the Big 3 MADE the middle class in this country and were the arsenal of democracy for this country during WW II...the Big 3 are not a disgrace...is it time for wages and benefits to be adjusted to a new global economy - yes, what's your answer - would you propose to break the backs of the union? interesting...how do you propose to do that and stay afloat? The people running the Big 3 are idiots, get other smarter people in there...interesting...Damler-Benz couldn't do it, Cerberus couldn't do it....I guess there are idiots all over the planet...the Big 3 are the middle of massive restructuring, turns out a perfect storm hit in the form of frozen credit markets...were it not for the forzen credit markets, there would be no need for govt intervention...the Big 3 have been very good for this country and are vital to it's future, they need a loan, the taxpayers will get their money back and then some (see Chrysler experience from early 80's)...guess I will have to stop reading the periodicals, the constant stream of ill informed articles is a waste of time....
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Posted By: archmsu @ 11/14/2008 11:05:11 PM
Ill informed? No, this is just what happens when you live in Detroit. You loss all respect for the automakers and the greedy unions.
P.S. I've never owned a US made automobile that has gotten more than 100,000 miles before major repair is needed. My toyota has 227,000 miles(original engine & transmission). I'll never buy an american car again, especially if they get bailed-out. -
Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/14/2008 6:36:21 PM
vital for its past
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Posted By: simpsons @ 11/14/2008 7:57:39 PM
"If the Big Three can be saved, they can only be saved by government" - Please tell me what industry anywhere has been saved by a government.
Also, isn't that the definition of socialism? So I can guess that Obama will jump on that bandwagon.-
Posted By: Farmboy @ 11/14/2008 10:42:34 PM
Please somebody, save us FROM the government!
I can remember when I was younger, that $700,000,000,000 was considered to be a lot of money!
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Posted By: Dansterpower @ 11/14/2008 10:40:36 PM
Sorry, but you loose on this point. Read the Motley Fool article on why we should let the US automakers fail. I don't like it at all, not at all. I take no pleasure in seeing out auto industry go down like this.
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Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/14/2008 9:46:54 PM
British Motors Corp. became British Leyland when it was nationalized in 1975.
Anyone who argues that a government bailout will improve a car company ought to look at that case.....
Because we all know how good British cars became. They lingered and lost more and more money making very bad cars.-
Posted By: Farmboy @ 11/14/2008 10:02:24 PM
How about the Yugos? or the Trabi's? The government can't build cars! Never could. They can't even govern efficiently!
I am also strongly opposed to the government trying its hand at banking (just look at the national debt, if you think the government would do a good job running the banks).-
Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/14/2008 10:17:43 PM
Um. I was being sarcastic. Google around and you will see that it was a failure. I guess you have never owned a British car.
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Posted By: Farmboy @ 11/14/2008 10:31:44 PM
Nope. Don't care too, either.
I thought your post was pointing out how bad things get, when the government tries to build cars. I just took it a little further, by pointing out how the commies built cars in Eastern Europe. Yugo and Trabant were both a joke, as automobiles.
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Posted By: skyflyr69 @ 11/14/2008 10:24:22 PM
No way on big 3 bailout UNLESS MGT team is gone shareholder equity wiped out and unions cut by50% and pensions put with PBGC just like other industries. The union job banks program is an outrage.
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Posted By: ablebody @ 11/14/2008 8:31:11 PM
how is GM going bankrupt any different than TWA or Eastern? What about consolidation like aircarft companies do all of the time? The companies of have seen this coming for a while. Let the file bankruptcy or merge but no bailout please.
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Posted By: Farmboy @ 11/14/2008 10:06:49 PM
Do you want to know what's different? The big 3 automakers are in bed with the granddaddy of all the unions, the UAW. If this wasn't such a big union company, the author wouldn't have even considered writing the article.
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Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/14/2008 4:47:29 PM
Anyone know how Saturn is doing?
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Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 4:59:44 PM
It is going to lose one of its rings because of greenhouse effect, so Obama will bail it out for future cheap energy profit.
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 10:06:02 PM
Another political extremist rant, devoid of fact and logic. Expect no less, and no more.
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Posted By: myvoice63 @ 11/14/2008 5:10:21 PM
Perhaps the big 3 should melt down the cars they have already produced and go into the business of selling off the metal to the Asian auto makers. From what I understand, there is also a shortage of metal for producing cars.
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Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 5:15:12 PM
It is not correct, their cars are not bad, they are slightly worse that Japanies cars but cheaper as well. The problem is, that proction of one Ford or Oldsmobile costs more than production of one Toyota.
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 10:03:47 PM
Buying a lot of Oldsmobiles these days, are we?
And sorry no, GM paint is as bad as it ever was, maybe even worse.
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Posted By: 4astrongamerica @ 11/14/2008 5:19:12 PM
Bailing out the BIG 3 will not solve their problems. This will only be a Band-Aid on a fatal wound. As long as the labor unions force the auto makers to pay employees 3 - 4 times more than market wages for the unskilled, uneducated labor and require them to maintain ridiculously excessive benefits packages, they will never be able to compete. I don't care how fuel efficient you make vehicles, if your production costs are that excessive compared to your competitors, you cannot be profitable. There are other auto makers outside Detroit (Tennessee, Mississippi, Kentucky, Ohio, etc.) that are not only profitable, but expanding production and their work force. It's not because they are manufacturing outside the US...it is because they are manufacturing outside Detroit. That should tell them something -- it's not the industry. As long as the UAW continues to strong arm these companies, they will continue to fail. The auto workers need to have a reality check and realize that you can't make that kind of money on a production line or without an education. They have been living in a dream world too long and they may be getting ready for a wake up call. In this economy, I would definitely consider renegotiating reasonable compensation packages and cracking down on the unions before I would lead all of these employees to the unemployment lines. Either way...NO BAILOUT.
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Posted By: crj2002 @ 11/14/2008 5:58:07 PM
So wait a minute... what about the "educated people" that bankrupted Wall Street and required $700+ Billion tax payer dollars? Last I heard, they weren't 'unionized' and did just fine crushing themselves.
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 10:02:32 PM
Well highly educated unethical scum are actually more dangerous than non-educated unethical scum, but either way, a grifter is a grifter is a grifter.
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Posted By: grossewillie @ 11/14/2008 4:58:56 PM
Why should tax payers bail out the UAW? When you eat the goose that lays the golden eggs, guess what....no more golden eggs! The UAW drove the car manufacturers to this point so let them now take their medicine like everone else when we screw up!
Bill, Greer SC-
Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 9:53:28 PM
So management had nothing to do with it. Thanks for the big picture.
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Posted By: Farmboy @ 11/14/2008 9:40:27 PM
Excellent Point!
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Posted By: 4astrongamerica @ 11/14/2008 5:25:25 PM
Love the analogy! You're so right.
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Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/14/2008 5:23:53 PM
Maybe waiting for government to do something is not the best course.
GM stock is trading for a pittance. No one wants it. But remember that any owner has the right to dissolve their own company.
Maybe a patriotic act would be to purchase a few shares of these companies.. If many people did that, then one of two eventualities might come. Given a majority stake, they could just vote to dissolve the company. If there were not a majority stake, they could give their shares to the government or otherwise guard the interests of taxpayers.
Either way, it might be profitable. It would certainly be more patriotic than just whining about it. Your grandchildren could sell the certificates on EBAY in 2108
Buy stock in the Big 3 and take charge of your country!!-
Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 5:47:23 PM
Why should i buy adult pit bull which likely will byte my behind? I guess I will look very patriotic then.
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Posted By: McLovinB @ 11/14/2008 6:43:54 PM
A share of stock gives you a vote.
A pit bull gives you a dirty backyard and nervous neighbors.
Maybe I am missing your point.-
Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 9:52:16 PM
The point is he missed yours.
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Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 4:15:19 PM
I hope that they (at least GM) will run out of money before new Senate (the current one will never pass it). They still can avoid Chapter 11 if they force unions to negotiate immediately all their contracts (because under Chapter 11 unions will lose much more). All they need (to start contract renegotiation) is hear 'no" from Senate as soon as possible. If Democrats find the way to overcome fillibuster - the agony will be prolonged for few years without any positive outcome for anybody..
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Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 4:34:51 PM
1. Did not you hear that he supported the bailout?
2. I admit that the previous GOP President was an idiot, but it does not mean that the others GOP leaders are. OK, you elected Obama, does it mean that you agree with his first immediate action (even he is not the President yet, he factually directed Democrats in Congress to bring him bailout bill, if not now, then in January, which also encouraged Big Three to postpone renegotiation with unions).-
Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/14/2008 4:44:02 PM
"OK, you elected Obama, does it mean that you agree with his first immediate action "
No, I do not agree with this action. However, it isn't his first action. His first action has been to draft executive orders to cancel Bush's crap, and that I DO agree with.
As I said, I do not expect to agree with him on every subject. Outside of the GOP, we have that right.-
Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 9:44:18 PM
"As I said, I do not expect to agree with him on every subject. Outside of the GOP, we have that right."
Well that's because people think and argue, sheeple just fall in line. And guess what? The next VP probably won't tell the opposition to "Fxxk yourself", like our present day VP and draft dodger does.
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Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 6:08:20 PM
Intersting timing. GM did not report hug losses and bancruptcy plans befor elections. I doubt that Obama and some Democratic Congressmen would have been elected if they had been pushed to pledge support for Big Tree bailout. I think this pledge will still haunt several Democrats in 2 years.
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 6:18:42 PM
Lets see - $25 billion to Detroit or about $1 trillion to Halliburton over 7 years. Who's the one that should be haunted? Do the math.
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Posted By: bighappy @ 11/14/2008 6:24:54 PM
Everal GOP candidates already paid for voting for $700 bil package, even it was not obvious wasting of taxpayers money. They are through.
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 11/14/2008 9:38:35 PM
Really? Doesn't seem to matter to the minority who still favor W how many trillions the national debt goes up. That's because they are not Americans so much as they are political extremists.
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