Olusegun Obasanjo has come a long way since the 1970s, when he was the military dictator of Nigeria. He went on to win two terms as president in democratic elections and is now one of Africa's elder statesmen. On Nov. 3, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon named him special envoy to help end the fighting in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, which has recently forced at least 250,000 people from their homes. After two weeks of shuttle diplomacy among nine countries, Obasanjo stopped in Lagos last week where NEWSWEEK's Rod Nordland caught up with him by telephone. Excerpts:
NORDLAND: You must have been very upset, after you went to [rebel leader] Laurent Nkunda's headquarters, to learn that his ceasefire pledge was broken within hours.
OBASANJO: I saw him on Sunday afternoon. That Sunday morning, the ceasefire was broken. I confronted him about that and asked him, what is the world going to think of you? The ceasefire must be respected, and we must get the Congo army involved, and MONUC [the U.N. peacekeeping force] must be the guarantor. By Tuesday he began to respect that, and now the ceasefire seems to be holding.
There have been many ceasefires. Is there any reason to believe this one will be any more enduring?
We have the Congo army on board, and with MONUC, things are looking better. We still have the problem of other militias, but for now at least [the major parties] agree on some things.
Is sending in more troops the answer?
The more zones of separation we create, the more areas we force [the militias] to leave, the better. To do more, we will need more MONUC troops. And there are a number of substantial IDP [internally displaced persons] centers that need to be looked after. Again, you need more troops to do that.
Many aid workers and observers say only a robust foreign force, preferably from the European Union, could be effective.
I don't believe at this point we should talk about EU or African Union troops. We need to deal with what we have on the ground, which is MONUC. And I won't say it has failed.
Illegal mining and exploitation of resources finance the militias. Is this going to be part of your discussions?
You have illegal mining problems because the Congolese authorities are not able to exert their authority in the area. [With] a cessation of hostilities, Congo can re-establish its authority, bring law and order and deal with the issue. And there are other problems, the ease of flow of small arms into Congo and the presence of foreign-armed troops.
Why not win agreement from the neighboring countries to cut off the flow of illegal exports?
I have raised that issue and whether we couldn't do what was tried in Liberia [boycotting blood diamonds]. But I was told while you can identify the source of diamonds, Congo's exports are not easy to identify.
You visited Angola recently; did you raise the concerns that Angolan troops are already in Congo? Are you concerned that even peacekeepers from countries like Angola and Rwanda, which were previously involved in Congo's wars, could just drag the situation back to where it was in 1998, a war involving nine nations?
I did visit Angola, and I was categorically told none of their troops are there. As to regional troops—they will have to all agree who will contribute troops.
There's a sense that some of the most important players aren't talking to each other, like Rwanda's president Paul Kagame and Congo's president Joseph Kabila, who haven't even met over this, and also that Congolese leaders refuse to talk to Nkunda.
Kagame assured me they are talking to Kabila every day, and his foreign minister just left Kigali, and on the 29th of this month, the chiefs of staff of both countries will be meeting. I believe Nkunda must talk to the government of Congo, and the government of president Kabila is not opposed to that. The next thing I want to do is get a dialogue going.
What can be done about the [Hutu rebels]? Have you been able to talk to them?
Something has to be done. The leaders of Congo and the Great Lakes region and the international community all have to put their heads together; there are foreign-armed troops within Congo and that is unacceptable.