JUSTICE

Obama to Take On Torture?

By Michael Isikoff | NEWSWEEK
Published Nov 22, 2008
From the magazine issue dated Dec 1, 2008

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  • Posted By: BasaltMan @ 12/29/2008 9:48:33 AM

    Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield are war criminals. They (like the Nazis and the Japanese leaders) started an unprovoked war. The Nazis and Japanese leaders were NOT convicted of torture or genocide. They were convicted (and hanged) for starting a war with no justification. The excuse of "...everybody thought he had WMD" is 1.) wrong and 2.) everybody else did not go and invade based on the idea of WMD.

  • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 11/30/2008 2:15:46 AM

    HARLEY: The architect of the 9/11 attacks is under arrest and is in the custody of the Americans.[Khalid Sheikh Muhammed. No,it was not bin Laden]. The principals involved in the attack on the USS COLE are dead,killed by a HELLFIRE missle strike in 2004. Those who carried out the US Embassy attacks in 1998 are also in custody.The man who led the ACHILLE LAURO hijacking is dead,after having been captured in Iraq. The US took out al Qaedas al-Libi only a few weeks ago. We are already filled up around here with dullwitted,moronic partisans. Go peddle your garbage to the tinfoils over at KOS. Line forms to the Left.

    www.state.gov

    www.cia.gov

  • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 11/28/2008 7:20:07 PM

    JARCHER 1: Can the drama. I too served and was a living witness to the tender mercies shown Americans by the same sort of human garbage evident in Mumbai[ Beirut,Lebanon. October,1983].
    This is not about the ''Dubya and Dick''show. If it were,we would have seen this kind of outrage confined solely to this administration. But neither of these were around when the USS COLE had a hole blown into its side killing our sailors. Or the WTC first attack in 1993, Or the US African embassies in 1998. Or the Lockerbie PAN-AM bombing. Or the ACHILLE LAURO hijacking. Beirut. Rome. Athens. Tehran. Munich. An unrelenting pattern of violence through American presidents and congresses Republican AND Democrat. The names change. The twisted ideologies and their readings of Islam do not.[and the dead are just as dead].
    You are in error regarding our policies aimed at the Germans and Japanese even prior to Pearl Harbor. It was a matter of official US policy to not only turn a blind eye to the Japanese conquest of most of China,but to also continue shipping trade scrap metal to this nation which were used to build the very ships and aircraft that devastated our fleet at Pearl. The US and the European democracies blithely allowed both nations to exit the League of Nations,setting up its downfall,but also turn their backs on the 1935 LOCARNO Treaty which would allow Japan,Germany and Italy to manufacture more of everything. More military aircraft,larger ships including dreadnoughts,and higher caliber guns. By 1939,these nations would comprise the worlds largest,[Americas was 16th,behind Portugal,while Russias remained wrecked as a result of the 1930s Stalinist purges]. Patterns of frank appeasement allowed this condition to materialize,to strengthen the dictatorships which took Czech Sudetan,Manchuria,The Marshall Islands,Ethiopia,Austria,even before 1939.

    also see:

    ''Stilwell and the American Experience In China:1911-1945''[esp. Roosevelt policies towards Japan 1933-1941]. Tuchman,Barbara. MacMillan Books.1970.

  • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 11/28/2008 7:19:40 PM

    JARCHER 1: Can the drama. I too served and was a living witness to the tender mercies shown Americans by the same sort of human garbage evident in Mumbai[ Beirut,Lebanon. October,1983].
    This is not about the ''Dubya and Dick''show. If it were,we would have seen this kind of outrage confined solely to this administration. But neither of these were around when the USS COLE had a hole blown into its side killing our sailors. Or the WTC first attack in 1993, Or the US African embassies in 1998. Or the Lockerbie PAN-AM bombing. Or the ACHILLE LAURO hijacking. Beirut. Rome. Athens. Tehran. Munich. An unrelenting pattern of violence through American presidents and congresses Republican AND Democrat. The names change. The twisted ideologies and their readings of Islam do not.[and the dead are just as dead].
    You are in error regarding our policies aimed at the Germans and Japanese even prior to Pearl Harbor. It was a matter of official US policy to not only turn a blind eye to the Japanese conquest of most of China,but to also continue shipping trade scrap metal to this nation which were used to build the very ships and aircraft that devastated our fleet at Pearl. The US and the European democracies blithely allowed both nations to exit the League of Nations,setting up its downfall,but also turn their backs on the 1935 LOCARNO Treaty which would allow Japan,Germany and Italy to manufacture more of everything. More military aircraft,larger ships including dreadnoughts,and higher caliber guns. By 1939,these nations would comprise the worlds largest,[Americas was 16th,behind Portugal,while Russias remained wrecked as a result of the 1930s Stalinist purges]. Patterns of frank appeasement allowed this condition to materialize,to strengthen the dictatorships which took Czech Sudetan,Manchuria,The Marshall Islands,Ethiopia,Austria,even before 1939.

    also see:

    ''Stilwell and the American Experience In China:1911-1945''[esp. Roosevelt policies towards Japan 1933-1941]. Tuchman,Barbara. MacMillan Books.1970.

  • Posted By: gabber @ 11/22/2008 7:07:39 PM

    Torture is in the eye of the beholder. What our agents did in the search for answers to save american lives can hardly be called torture. Physical, emotional, and psychological confrontations are at times, unfortunately, necessary in the name of security. It's not pleasant, but I am thankful that we have men and women willing to conduct such interrogations, and barring physical scarring will continue to support them. there were no beheadings, no bamboo under the fingernails, no one was hung by his arms while tied behind his back. It would be easy to qualify the actions our agents took when compared to what the enemy did to our poor captives, Matt Maupin comes to mind, but, even if the enemy didn't take such extreme actions, if we need to remove all semblances of comfort and security from a captive in order to extract information from him, then so be it.

    • Posted By: chris s. @ 11/22/2008 11:28:42 PM

      I'll bet it's torture if it's being done to you or a loved one. Then you wouldn't have so much bravado. Oh, and the Hitler comment really was right on. Wasn't torture one of the [many] reasons we went after Saddam?

      • Posted By: gabber @ 11/23/2008 8:31:31 AM

        First I and my family would not commit terrorist acts worthy of the scrutiny of our soldiers and the CIA. Second, Hitler killed millions of Jews, and to compare that to our methods of interrogation is beyond moronic.

        • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 8:58:55 AM

          "First I and my family would not commit terrorist acts worthy of the scrutiny of our soldiers and the CIA."

          Okay. Suppose you get arrested by accident? With no due process, how could you prove you hadn't done anything?

          • Posted By: gabber @ 11/23/2008 1:15:50 PM

            Again, how, if I obey the laws of our country and the laws of God, could I get arrested 'by accident' that's just being silly.

            • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 1:37:37 PM

              Because nobody is ever wrongfully arrested.

              LOL.

              • Posted By: gabber @ 11/23/2008 4:59:23 PM

                Some get themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time by their own choices. I avoid relationships and situations that would result in a run in with any law enforcement officials. There are bad guys on both sides, but if you choose to place yourself in harm's way, you've got no one to blame but yourself.

                • Posted By: Floridatexan @ 11/28/2008 8:43:43 AM

                  "...but if you place yourself in harm's way..." What if you just happened to be of Arab descent and just happened to be an available target in the frenzy to arrest people. What if you're totally innocent of any crime? These people have been held for years without habeas corpus and without even knowing what crime they are charged with. To deny them due process is to deny it to yourself and every other American.

                • Posted By: William.king1 @ 11/24/2008 12:08:27 PM

                  Or because someone under torture gave up your name.

        • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 11/23/2008 8:47:18 AM

          Actually it is not beyond moronic.

          I was raised a Jew and taught Holocaust studies for years, but i can still see the analogy in relative terms. I have known many survivors (some still alive after all these years). As well as a few people who were "interrogated" by the Gestapo. The one who is still alive made the Hitler analogy too, and he later served (and was decorated) in Korea and Vietnam. Torture, regardless of the intentsity, is ALWAYS wrong and illegal. And theose who practice it can, in a general sense, be lumped together. The Nazis practiced torture in a manner that was consitent with the pure evil and inhumanity of their ideology. Saddam practiced his torture in a manner consistent with his lack of haminty oand civility. Our manner of torture (ie waterboarding and the rest of the Gitmo methods) were consistent with our higher standing among the civilized nations. But is was still torture.

    • Posted By: RO in Reno @ 11/22/2008 7:45:59 PM

      Hitler was also happy he had that kind of men and women, right up until the end.

      • Posted By: gabber @ 11/22/2008 8:49:34 PM

        What a ridiculous comment, give something substantive or shut up.

        • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 8:57:38 AM

          Who the hell are you? LOL.

          • Posted By: gabber @ 11/23/2008 1:19:19 PM

            Still trying to figure that one out huh? If someone makes a ridiculous, nonsensical hit and run comment, I'll call them on it.

            • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 1:38:57 PM

              Actually, you just holler at everyone who disagrees with you to "shut up" or "leave".

              Sorry, Gabber. It doesn't work that way. This isn't the O'Rielly Factor. You can't cut anyone's microphone.

              • Posted By: gabber @ 11/23/2008 5:02:09 PM

                If you'd read the entire comment, I asked the person to reply with something substantive or shut up. You're the one who told me to 'take a hike' not too long ago, hypocrite. I respond to the hit and runners who only want to come in and leave a little one liner without any substance in that fashion.

    • Posted By: TheVigil @ 11/23/2008 10:04:32 AM

      Two wrongs don't make a right, gabber. They just satisfy a selfish and petty desire on our part to inflict more terrible suffering on the world, and perpetuate a cycle when more dispossessed youth in the Middle East hear of our own crimes.

      I can't imagine the agony caused by having to lie kneeling in hot 100-degree sun in a black mask for hours at a time, and for this to be repeated for months or years, alone. That was a relatively innocent torture compared to the sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, and psychological degradation we inflicted on these people. A month would leave me screaming, probably broken for the rest of my life. I suspect it might do the same to you, no matter how you may think otherwise.

      We have disgusted and repulsed the world and ourselves with this kind of ugly and classless retribution. This isn't "24", and Lynndie England is not Jack Bauer. In the real world, torture vastly degrades the quality of information obtained due to the fact that many people will say anything or fabricate stories to escape the torture. The false positives vastly outnumber the real ones - ask most CIA operatives. It does no good, it inflicts suffering on a variety of people who were innocent of most crimes we accused them of, and it saddens all of us who really are committed to trying to end pain and promote compassion in the world.

      Do you really think torturing our suspects makes the world any safer? Do you deny the stories that the tortured frequently make up in order to escape the pain and horror?

      • Posted By: gabber @ 11/23/2008 1:13:05 PM

        Again you, like others miss the point. I don't consider the things that our agents have done to be torture. It's not wrong, we are not causing any lasting physical harm. If anyone thinks that the things that happen in 24 are real, then they need to check themselves in to the psych ward, that's not what our guys are doing. It is unfortunate that we have to resort to these tactics, but our enemies want us DEAD, no questions asked, and if we have to resort to what may appear to some as unsavory tactics to save lives, then so be it! As far as disgusting the world, I'm sure the videotaped beheadings of our soldiers gave them some solace (sarcasm noted). Get a clue, it's not a nice world out there!

        • Posted By: TheVigil @ 11/23/2008 3:47:07 PM

          "If anyone thinks that the things that happen in 24 are real, then they need to check themselves in to the psych ward, that's not what our guys are doing."

          Actually, during the planning stages for our Guantanamo policy, a government review later found that there had been dozens of references to "24" in the planning documents. The article is on this site somewhere, I may have to go look it up.

          "Again you, like others miss the point. I don't consider the things that our agents have done to be torture. It's not wrong, we are not causing any lasting physical harm."

          Obviously you haven't heard about the cases of jaundice and hepatitis that have resulted from Guantanamo due to inadequate living conditions or medical treatment. I understand there is at least one person now who cannot raise his arms above his shoulders anymore.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 8:59:27 AM

      "Torture is in the eye of the beholder."

      Oh, yeah. I just love that republican moral relativism.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 11/23/2008 8:33:08 AM

      According to the Geneva Convention. which we are a signatory of, it is torture. Also, it has been proven to be fairly bad a getting useful info. It emboldens those who oppose us an completely voids any right that the US has to call others on human-rights violations.

  • Posted By: Vypurr @ 11/23/2008 9:12:35 AM

    Water boarding is no longer an adjunct to gaining information. It is no longer condoned by the military.

    It is amazing however, that everyone who opposed water boarding on this board, where incidentally no one ever died from the procedure, has not commented on the horrors of torture and murder place on our own soldiers, and indeed innocent non military personnel. These hate filled monsters have electrocuted their victims, gouged their eyes out, beaten them beyond recognition, and televised hacking their heads off without so much as an aspirin to dull the pain.

    Where is your plea for them to stop? Where's your outcry for their "crimes against humanity", or their "violations of "human rights and the Geneva Convention?"

    I cannot comprehend the concern for these insane, murdering bastards.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 9:31:05 AM

      "Water boarding is no longer an adjunct to gaining information. It is no longer condoned by the military."

      I can't fathom why it was used in the first place.

      "It is amazing however, that everyone who opposed water boarding on this board, where incidentally no one ever died from the procedure, has not commented on the horrors of torture and murder place on our own soldiers, and indeed innocent non military personnel. These hate filled monsters have electrocuted their victims, gouged their eyes out, beaten them beyond recognition, and televised hacking their heads off without so much as an aspirin to dull the pain. "

      They are savages. I EXPECT that sort of crap from them. I also expect that, when captured, they will be tried for these crimes, placed against a suitable backstop, and shot. Why I did NOT expect is that the government, and a sizeable portion of the population, would embrace the very same mentality as these beasts.

      "Where is your plea for them to stop? Where's your outcry for their "crimes against humanity", or their "violations of "human rights and the Geneva Convention?""

      Why plead with animals? What possible good would it do? Capture them, try them, and execute them. Or just put a couple of 250 LB bombs through the window of their house (Remember Zarqawi? Neither do I.)

      "I cannot comprehend the concern for these insane, murdering bastards."

      I have absolutely no concern for them. What I have is concern for American principles. We're America. We aren't supposed to torture. Period.

      • Posted By: Vypurr @ 11/23/2008 10:39:01 AM

        We used it to obtain information. But you knew that.

        And my question was why there's no outcry for the torture and murder of our soldiers and civilians. Why plead with animals? Please.

        And we don't use any type of torture. But you'll keep drumming....

        • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 10:49:59 AM

          "We used it to obtain information. But you knew that."

          It's been known for centuries that you don't get good intel from torture, as the person being tortured will make up any story to get the torture to stop.

          • Posted By: Vypurr @ 11/23/2008 11:34:19 AM

            Wrong. Vital information was obtained from the three AL Qaeda suspects that water boading was used on. If it were as useless as you suggest, the practice would not have been utilized for the past "centuries."

            • Posted By: TheVigil @ 11/23/2008 12:40:21 PM

              Slavery was used for centuries too, despite the fact that (compared to a free society) it makes an almost unbelievably shitty economic system.

              Doc is right, intelligence officers around the world know you get better info when you use due process. Torture creates a lot of false positives from people who will say things to get it to stop. How many of those have we had in Guantanamo? I'm willing to bet there have been dozens.

              • Posted By: Vypurr @ 11/23/2008 1:03:20 PM

                You're missing the point. I'm not condoning torture, and our government no longer does so either. My point is most here scream about how horrible our government is for something they no longer do, and little or nothing about the nightmarish torture and murder used by the terrorist on our on people. Just concern for their "rights."

                • Posted By: Floridatexan @ 11/28/2008 8:35:38 AM

                  I get your point. You're saying that using torture is not okay, except in unusual circumstances, like the aftermath of 9/11. I say there is never a justification, never, to use torture, no matter what the circumstances. That's why the Geneva Convention was enacted and its principles written into every military handbook. And there's plenty of outcry over our entry into an illegal war based on lies.

                • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 1:16:07 PM

                  "My point is most here scream about how horrible our government is for something they no longer do,"

                  Charles Manson hasn't killed anyone recently, so he must be okay, right?

                  "and little or nothing about the nightmarish torture and murder used by the terrorist on our on people. Just concern for their "rights."

                  I've responded to that. You ignored it, presumably because my response wasn't what you are now pretending it was.

                  • Posted By: Vypurr @ 11/25/2008 11:19:27 AM

                    We'll, a little hypocrisy here? Manson never killed anyone, why aren't you screaming for his release?

                    And your so-called answer wasn't an answer. " Why call for them to stop?" Lol... even the peaceful Muslims of the world are beginning to do that. But your attitude? 'Why bother.'

                • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 11/24/2008 12:32:36 PM

                  And so? The Nazis stopped killing Jews in 1945, and they were still punished.

                • Posted By: TheVigil @ 11/23/2008 1:24:41 PM

                  From my post above:

                  Posted By: TheVigil @ 11/23/2008 12:36:53 PM

                  Comment: "I asked why there's no outcry for the torture and murder of our soldiers and civilians. "

                  We've had national news coverage discussing 9/11 for six years, innumerable denunciations of Islamic extremism, two wars and you claim there's "no outcry"?

            • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 1:14:09 PM

              And how many false positives did we waste time on in the process?

      • Posted By: TheVigil @ 11/23/2008 9:46:50 AM

        I think we need this.

        America has engaged in some acts that have violated our national character and indulged a petty, mean-spirited, and unfair quest for revenge in which it would seem a variety of innocent men have been tortured.

        I agree with Doc Howl. We are Americans. We do not torture. We act with dignity and respect for others - only some of us haven't. "At a minimum, the American people have to be able to see and judge what happened," said one senior adviser, who asked not to be identified talking about policy matters. " - This is the entire truth. The war was conducted on our dime. We have the right to see what our taxes paid for. Begin the process of lancing the infection of torture and the repudiation of the Geneva convention, and air the injustices committed, so that we and the whole world can judge for ourselves what's going on, and hopefully begin to take steps towards healing.

        • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 11/24/2008 12:20:05 PM

          But apparently Americans DO torture. So much for your "shining city on the hill".

    • Posted By: TheVigil @ 11/23/2008 9:48:03 AM

      It looks clear that at least some of the men we tortured were not guilty of the crimes we accused them of...do you think it was worth it to inflict intense agony on these people because others committed crimes against us?

      • Posted By: Vypurr @ 11/23/2008 10:43:26 AM

        I did not say condoned torture because they do. I specifically said we no longer use the method nor condone it.

        I asked why there's no outcry for the torture and murder of our soldiers and civilians. You probably agree with Howl that they're animals and there's simply no need.

        • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 10:48:48 AM

          Are you suggesting that we get on TV and ask Zawahiri to play nice?

          Nope. Won't work. People like that, you have to deal with, either on the battlefield, or on a gallows.

          • Posted By: Vypurr @ 11/23/2008 11:26:30 AM

            That's what we're trying to do, but according to you, we're being to rough on them. They're trying to sort this out, and I've repeatedly mentioned issues that prevent us from immediately resolving all of this.

            But the point I've made here is you've gone on and on about how we used water boarding, though we no longer do, but not a word with strong condemnation of what they've done, other than "why bother."

            • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 1:13:30 PM

              "That's what we're trying to do, but according to you, we're being to rough on them."

              And how does pissing on a Koran help? You put them on trial. If guilty, you shoot them. If you feel they may have information you need, you give them one (1) chance to cooperate, and if they don't you shoot them, hang them, whatever.

              I fail to see how this is coddling them.

              • Posted By: Vypurr @ 11/25/2008 11:15:06 AM

                Let's go ahead and put the 85 on trial. The remaining don't want to leave or can't leave for reasons that's been answered elsewhere. Since you're so bent on closing Gitmo, you won't mind if the government sends the reaming 115 "little angels" to come live with you.

        • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 11/23/2008 1:55:41 PM

          Vypurr,
          Note that in a prior post I said.
          "The Nazis practiced torture in a manner that was consitent with the pure evil and inhumanity of their ideology. Saddam practiced his torture in a manner consistent with his lack of haminty oand civility. Our manner of torture (ie waterboarding and the rest of the Gitmo methods) were consistent with our higher standing among the civilized nations. But is was still torture. "

          That was a part of condeming the actions of the others. Note I said Saddam engaged in actiosn that showed his lack of humanity and civilty. The same can be said for most ofthe countries in that area. But it is also why I condemn the US for what it does. In relative terms, what we did what just as wrong. Note I said RELATIVE terms. The Arab nations (as well as Iraq and Iran) started out far more animalisitc thatn we did. They started out with abysmal human rights records. If they ONLY waterboarded that would be a major IMPROVEMENT for THEM. They have proven themselves animals for decades. But when we engage in actions that violate the Geneva convention (and the terrorists ARE enemy combatants and we are engaged in a war against them so the the Geneva convention does apply) we lessen ourselves.

          I do not give a damn if we got info from three Al Qaeda terrorists through waterboarding. It was wrong, it was illegal and it put our troops at greater risk of torture in future actions. It makes us no better than the those we are fighting and THAT is unacceptable.

        • Posted By: AmateurHistorian @ 11/23/2008 1:50:09 PM

          I deny that anyone outside of the inner circles of government can say with certainty that we are no longer torturing. Our government, and especially the miliary, lie to us routinely and copiously. I really can't think of any assurance they could give that would make me believe they're *not* torturing. Even if Obama himself were to go into that inner circle and see all the evidence himself, he still couldn't tell us, because as commander in chief he has to keep military secrecy.

          I agree that there's not much outcry in this discussion about the inhuman brutalities inflicted on U.S. soldiers and citizens. So what? This particular discussion doesn't have to address every point related to any topic. As to the public in general, TheVigil said it: there's been six years of extensive international news coverage of all the horrors of this war. How is that no outcry?

        • Posted By: TheVigil @ 11/23/2008 12:36:53 PM

          "I asked why there's no outcry for the torture and murder of our soldiers and civilians. "

          We've had national news coverage discussing 9/11 for six years, innumerable denunciations of Islamic extremism, two wars and you claim there's "no outcry"?

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 11/23/2008 1:17:29 PM

      Vypurr,
      Note that in a prior post I said.
      "The Nazis practiced torture in a manner that was consitent with the pure evil and inhumanity of their ideology. Saddam practiced his torture in a manner consistent with his lack of haminty oand civility. Our manner of torture (ie waterboarding and the rest of the Gitmo methods) were consistent with our higher standing among the civilized nations. But is was still torture. "

      Taht was a part of condeming the actionsa of the others. Note I said Saddam engaged in actiosn that showed his lack of humanity and civilty. The same can be said for most ofthe countries in that area. But it is also why I condemn the US for what it does. In relative terms, what we did what just as wrong. Note I said RELATIVE terms. The Arab nations (as well as Iraq and Iran) started out far more animalisitc thatn we did. They started out with abysmal human rights records. If they ONLY waterboarded that would be a major IMPROVEMENT for THEM. They have proven themselves animals for decades. But when we engage in actions that violate the Geneva convention (and the terrorists ARE enemy combatants and we are engaged in a war against them so the the Geneva convention does apply) we lessen ourselves.

      I do not give a damn if we got info from three Al Qaeda terrorists through waterboarding. It was wrong, it was illegal and it put our troops at greater risk of torture in future actions. It makes us no better than the those we are fighting and THAT is unacceptable.

  • Posted By: Boulder Sue @ 11/23/2008 12:33:51 PM

    Torture is wrong no matter who does or to whom for any reason. Here's an outcry for our guys and gals who have undergone torture, incliding John MCcAin and his fellow prisoners! OKAY! But two wrongs never make a right .Someone sais the world will never be fair so give it up! That's a real he-man-American answer, isn't it! I thought we were supposed to an example, even with all our flaws, to rest of the world! Remember the words "We the people, in order to create a MORE PERFECT union..etc" That implies room for improvement, and this country, in firits and starts, has improved: got rid of slavery, finally gave equal rights to all human beings-minorities and women and gradually expanded what those rights meant-at least on paper-but at least a lot of times in reality. Torture is not American for any reason. Ask John McCain. Nor especially effective. He had the presence of mind to spout of the front line of a football team to his captors (though he kind of screwed up which team during the campaign, but the point remains the same) instead of knowledge they really wanted. As for the detainees, try to understand the cultures they came from. In many cases they are there for the same reason Back Africans captured and sol other Black Africans: money. I have no doubt there are some real bad guys among them, but only a real trial with real evidence can ever tell us that for sure, and probably not 100% so. But look how many folks have been wrongly put to death or spent decades in prison wrongfully because of flawed trials? How about the outcry for them? It's ok to make mistakes one way but not the other? We are better than that, I hope! We sure like to say we are!

    • Posted By: Floridatexan @ 11/28/2008 8:22:56 AM

      Yeah, McCain was such a model prisoner. That's why his fellow POW's refer to him as "Songbird".

  • Posted By: AmateurHistorian @ 11/23/2008 12:56:28 PM

    I don't care whether the Geneva Convention is applicable. I don't care what the Bible says. I don't care what the majority of Americans say. I certainly don't care what the soon-to-be-gone administration says. I don't care whether waterboarding and our other inhumane interrogation practices are effective. They are torture, and torture is wrong, period. All civilized nations agree. (Being in the same club with Pakistan, North Korea, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq under Hussein, and the darker corners of Israel makes dubious our claim to being civilized.)

    But revenge is not the answer. Obama is taking the right approach. Instead of a witch hunt and prosecutions, he's adopting more the Truth and Reconciliation Commission approach used in South Africa, Guatemala, and other countries. Investigate, name names, expose the practices to the open air and sunshine, tell everyone what happened and who did it. It's an attitude of justice, not revenge: restoring openness and truth and making it less likely that torture will recur ... instead of adding more hate and violence on top of what's already been done.

    • Posted By: Floridatexan @ 11/28/2008 8:19:34 AM

      Amateur, are you suggesting that we bring the criminal activities into the sunshine and then don't prosecute? That's the equivalent of slapping the hand of a rapist with a wet noodle.

    • Posted By: C. MacLean @ 11/23/2008 1:48:44 PM

      Thanks, AmateurHistorian. There are two goals here - (1) ending American use of torture, period. (2) promote healing and moving forward as a nation so we can regain the moral higher ground.

      A "Truth and Reconciliation Commission approach used in South Africa, Guatemala, and other countries" would be a win- win for America. It would get at the truth, allow for healing and moving forward, and avoid the toxic effects of recriminations, name calling and finger pointing that would occur if we prosecuted.

      Witch hunts are lose-lose situations. We've had enought of those to last a life time.

      • Posted By: AmateurHistorian @ 11/23/2008 2:26:06 PM

        Thanks, C. Something else occurred to me: if we do continue with what sounds like Obama's version of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, we will be clearly saying to the world, "We did something wrong, we admit it, we're working hard to change our ways." During my 51-year lifetime, the U.S. has shown the world almost unbroken arrogance, refusal to admit error, and lack of accountability. We desperately need to mend fences with the world after 8 years of trying our damnedest to undo the rule of law at home and around the world. A display of humility and accountability from us is the best thing we could do to regain our credibility and moral stature.

        • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 11/26/2008 8:43:15 AM

          "We desperately need to mend fences with the world after 8 years of trying our damnedest to undo the rule of law at home and around the world."

          I can't speak for the rest of the world, Yank, but rejecting McCain (basically another 4 years of Bush) was a good start. Now let's see if Obama has the stones to set things right.

  • Posted By: Doc HowI @ 11/23/2008 1:45:23 PM

    Here is the problem with the whole logic of investigating Guantanamo. The abuses claimed have either been made up, grossly exaggerated, and taken out of time context. In the fresh wake of terror attacks in the heart of Wall Street in the premiere city in this country, the idea of waterboarding sounds at least to me much more palatable than it does in a world living in relative calm since. I certainly see nothing wrong with reexamining that in the current safe and terror free environment the Bush administration has created, and wondering if it was a smart choice from a PR standpoint. Certainly it was not a wise decision given that the US Media is intent on embarrassing the Bush administration at every turn, as they have since 9/11, and more so because now they can do so without threat of destroying totally the US reputation abroad by claiming that we have Obama as our saviour who will right all past wrongs, which most of us know is total hogwash. So we have to balance the want of the Left, which of course includes the mainstream US media, to exact its final revenge on Bush for having the gall to win 2 straight elections over the darlings of the left, with the need to investigate and find out what else happened down there in Gitmo. You can hopefully understand the wishes of the right in this country to understand the context of waterboarding for that period in time knowing that it is something we would not normally do. But to take the position of the left that we are a compassionate country that never does anything that might be coercive lest we be judged evil by those that would see us destroyed is just not clear thinking. If a Gore or Kerry had been President during 911 I fear this country might not exist in its current form, remember that the left's response to 911 was to apologize for being more successful than the rest of the world and admitting we deserved to be attacked. What kind of havoc would that kind of weakness caused??

    • Posted By: Floridatexan @ 11/28/2008 8:15:03 AM

      Bush did not "win" either in 2000 or in 2004. This information is already coming out. And it is never right to dishonor the Geneva Convention because of "context". Bush manipulated people's fear, just as Hitler did in his rise to power. And if Al Gore had been president, 9/11 probably wouldn't have happened. Hate breeds more hate; witness the resurgence of terrorism throughout the world.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/23/2008 1:53:47 PM

      Hey, Vypurr...take a look at my name, and the name of the poster I am replying to. Look at the last letter in each name.

      Class acts you have on your side, dude. LOL.

  • Posted By: valwayne @ 11/24/2008 1:24:03 PM

    I think Obama should live up to the criticisms he and his nut case supporters made of the Bush administration. Go ahead and put the CIA, FBI, NSA, and DIA on trial for keeping us safe since 9/11. And why talk about a National Security court. Surely the liberal thing to do is to give all the terrorists at Guantanamo Bay full constitutional rights and O.J. like trials. Either that or just let them go with an apology....and maybe a government payout for their inconvenience...to aid them on their mission to kill more Jews and more Americans! Go ahead and start an all out political war that will rep up our national security
    aparatus and make it impossible to deal with the economic crisis that confronts the nation. Why not?

    • Posted By: Floridatexan @ 11/28/2008 7:59:22 AM

      There will be an investigation. What if Bush/Cheney were participants in 9/11 and killed 3,000 American citizens for political gain? If they did, they would have had the support of the Pentagon, at least certain individuals, and some of the other agencies. Evil is evil. We already know Iraq was invaded based on lies; it wouldn't be a stretch at all to find that Bush/Cheney ordered the Twin Towers to be bombed.

    • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 11/24/2008 1:27:17 PM

      So, what's it like defending Nazis?

  • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 11/25/2008 12:06:18 PM

    The ''benign goodness that was once an essential part of its [American] foreign policy''.

    Lets take a look at that for a moment.

    Iran Contra-1986

    The Somoza Regime- 1979

    The Afghan War-1979

    The Congolese overthrow-1962

    The Iranian Coup -1956

    The Laotian Coup-1961

    The Vietnam War-1964

    The Bay of Pigs-1962

    The Indonesian Arms Program-1995

    The Allende Period-1969-1971

    The Peron Option-1957-1961

    The Columbian Drug War-1984-present

    The Rwandan Genocide-1995

    The Cambodian Genocide-1976

    The Lebanon Involvement-1982-1983

    The Adid Debacle -1993

    The use of torture,political assassination and rendition was a hallmark of all of these periods. And it involved presidents going back to Truman.

    ''The Agency:The Rise And Decline of the CIA'' Ranelaugh,John . Touchstone Books Repnt.1994.



    • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 11/26/2008 8:34:22 AM

      At which point was torture official US policy, bragged about by the administration, to the cheering and hooting of the jingoist crowd? Really, Lee, the only thing more disgusting than a government torturing people is watching people queue up to make excuses for it.

  • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 11/26/2008 4:12:29 PM

    HORRIBLE: The idea that ''torture was bragged about by the administration'' is garbage. You continue to forget that actions deemed instruments of ''torture'' were not codified until 2006,and several areas remain gray enough to remain off the Congress agreements to ''make laws''in this area. Thus the idea that the nation was a sort of shining city on the hill is rubbish. We were never that good. [But not as bad as those who would slit your throat due to merely your accent]. Its a tough call all around. You represent an apologists clique for rank murderers similar to how the effete Eurotrash and American Left has been acting for years. Those of us who demand that tough justice be meted out to thugs must nevertheless eschew the line between this and cruel punishment tactics and know where to draw lines in the sand,knowing full well that 24/7 lighted cells,lousy food,and no cigs does not constitute ''torture''.Make no mistake. One more attack on Americans such as what has now occurred in Mumbai[Bombay] or even worse,here in America,and the apologists will be buried under the weight of anger and rage,the left will be swept aside.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/26/2008 6:34:02 PM

      " One more attack on Americans such as what has now occurred in Mumbai[Bombay] or even worse,here in America,and the apologists will be buried under the weight of anger and rage,the left will be swept aside."

      So, you are hoping for an attack on America, for the gain of your political party?

      When did you start loving your party more than your country?

      • Posted By: jarcher1 @ 11/27/2008 11:58:54 PM

        Patriotism and religion are the first refuges of a scoundrel, especially the outgoing administration. I recognize its not politically expedient to prosecute these Aholes, but digging up their misdeeds, lies, and machinations would go far in discrediting their actions. Making this stuff public would give any future right wing leadership a moment of pause before following the same path.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 11/26/2008 6:33:09 PM

      ". You continue to forget that actions deemed instruments of ''torture'' were not codified until 2006,"

      Rubbish. We prosecuted Japanese officers for waterboarding.

      "and several areas remain gray enough to remain off the Congress agreements to ''make laws''in this area."

      Gray, my ass. Torture is torture. If you approve of it, you are no American.

  • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 11/27/2008 2:25:35 AM

    DOC: We ''prosecuted''Japanese under military law that would have been tossed out by you less than enlightened nabobs in 2008. You forget that those such as Gens. Yamashita and Tojo,for instance,were summarily executed after drumhead trials,with good riddance.[As were U-Boat Germans secretly executed in the US[Arizona] in 1944]. Thank the heavens the likes of yourself and your dullwitted compatriots were not alive in this time,lest Tojo have been the successful author of several books reclining in a Parisian exile dying naturally after a long life.
    You are being a weakling that sustains the same sort of go-along-to-get -along with true evil,and not that invented by those who place all blame upon the Bushs of the world, that is getting our people murdered now.[or those they seek to murder being specifically ''Americans and Britons'' of whom these victims we know not yet of].
    This is precisely the same sort of attitude and true ''rubbish'' that affected the West between the two world wars and for this,tens of millions would die and entire races of humans would be nearly eradicated. You also forget that these people can give a damn about American or western ''party''or political or social ideology. Nor,as is obvious with the ascent of new political parties and leaders in the US, ''Americans''as a whole. Witnesses recall that these bastards specifically sought out those suspected to be ''Americans or Britons''. The cruel wolves crowd at the door of our civilization that would ice you for less than the cost of your hatband and you would seek to play bridge with the likes of these.

    '' He was one of those weak creatures,devoid of pride,timorous,anemic,hateful souls,full of
    shifty cunning,who face neither God nor man,who face not even themselves''

    HG Wells, ''War Of The Worlds'' [1898].

    • Posted By: jarcher1 @ 11/27/2008 11:37:31 PM

      A little posting error below: As one of Doc's dull witted compatriots, nevertheless one who did find time to go fight against VC when your chickenhawk heroes just couldn't be bothered, I must say your screed here is a golden example of arm chair warrior rubbish. If you'd ever been a warrior, you would recognize almost instinctively that bearing arms without discipline, honor, and principled action is the province of thugs, not a warrior. Yes, on the battlefield, the need to take the most effective action to close with, kill, and destroy the enemy is paramount. After leaving the field, the way of honor is treat POW's as we have said we will treat them - humanely, in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. It is the least we can do, even if the enemy is not complying with the treaty. Simply because we said we would. Now I don't expect a right winger to understand a code of honor, their leadership clearly doesn't so why should the grass roots?

      Dubya and Dick, couldn't be bothered to fight. Dick was too busy with B school and Dubya's daddy got him a pilot's seat in TANG. Its clear from the lies they told the American people and Congress in order to go to war in Iraq, they have no concept of honor. Generals that had actually taken field during their careers and counseled restraint where shouldered aside in favor of generals that were more politically pliable. Then they engaged in semantics to justify treating POWs however they liked, without regard to the GC. Honor was not to be found in any of their actions - so very, very typical of inexperienced chickenhawks without a clue.

      Now as to your appeal to the appeasement theory of WWII. First of all the world is a different place than prior to the second World War. Second to say that appeasement started WWII is genuinely the mark of simple mindedness. In regard to the US, please explain how it was we appeased the Japanese, until they attacked Pearl Harbor? In Europe, appeasement might be one of a complex set of factors, but to say this is it, this is the one, if there had been no appeasement, there would have been no war is both false and incredibly stupid.

    • Posted By: jarcher1 @ 11/27/2008 10:43:47 PM

      As one of Doc's dull witted compatroits, nevertheless one who did find time to go fight against VC when your chickenhawk heros just couldn't be bothered, I must say your screed here is a golden example of arm chair warrior rubbish. If you'd ever been a warrior, you would recognize almost instinctively that bearing arms without discipline, honor, and principaled action is the provience of thugs, not a warrior. Yes, on the battlefield, the need to take the most effective action to close with, kill, and destroy the enemy

  • Posted By: memo2 @ 11/27/2008 4:44:27 AM

    Obama need to keep open Guantanamo Bay Facilities, Who ever conducted the past abuse there we all see it and it was corrected these people obviously not was soldiers to represent our Countries,with professional Manner.
    But do you think foreing Countries conduct their interrogatories with all constitutinal right's on their own way?
    Obviously you don't know nothing regarding Military Torture.
    And you think the Al-Qeada Network will stop their terrorism and the people support it ? I don't thikso.
    This administration needs better team on the CIA and other Facilities..

  • Posted By: aussiereader @ 11/25/2008 3:27:52 AM

    I'll bet a lot more Americans have been killed by drug criminals and such that by terrorists. When is America going to start abducting, torturing and incarcerating without trial suspected drug dealers and their associates? How about convicted or suspected drunk drivers? Kidnap, torture and 'disappear' a few of them and I bet the road toll would decline!

    • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 11/26/2008 8:36:39 AM

      Why stop there? Why not torture people who speed too often, or cross against the signal? That'll teach the bastards.

  • Posted By: fowlowl @ 11/25/2008 3:56:26 AM

    Fine. Let's tell it all. And I mean all. Tell exactly what "torture" was used and tell exactly what information we had that caused the President to think it was necessary to use these methods. If in doing so we release secrets that cause thousands more Americans to die, so be it. Let it all be known and then let everyone be able to judge both George Bush and those who have condemned him without having all of the facts. If he wasn't justified, put him in prison. If he was, let the American electorate never forget who these traitors are. For myself, I would have tortured every one of them and I don't mean by waterboarding.

    • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 11/26/2008 8:35:33 AM

      "For myself, I would have tortured every one of them and I don't mean by waterboarding."

      You might have a bright future in Red China. You should talk to their consulate.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 11/25/2008 10:37:40 AM

      There can NEVER be justification for torture.

      Anyone who says there is is a traitor to both the US Constitution and therefore the USA.

  • Posted By: urthsong @ 11/26/2008 12:33:14 AM

    I would hope that there would be legal help provided to victims to bring suits against the US government and individuals known or believed to have been a part of the tortures and renditions. That seems to be the only way to bring about justice for some of the crimes committed. Commission or no commission. These things must go to the courts. There will no longer be an administration blocking relavent evidence. I hope that Canadian who was sent to be tortured in Syria is able to get an appeal soon.

  • Posted By: Duck Soup @ 11/25/2008 10:26:07 PM

    You know, it occurred to me the other day that what the Republican Party really wants is limited liability for all its actions in the White House.

    When you own stock, what's the worst that can happen? Your stock goes to zero. Do you lose your savings? No.

    When you work at a company and you take risks with the company's money, what's the worst that can happen when you mess up? You get fired. Do you have to chip in out of your own pocket to help cover the losses from the ill-advised risks you took? No.

    When you are a Republican Administration official, what's the worst that can happen to you if you commit crimes and abuse your power and the people's trust? You get pardoned or have your sentence commuted. And it's very unlikely things will go that far. Much more likely you just have to leave because people vote your party out. That's what the Republicans largely got in the Nixon era.

    That's a lot of what happened in the Reagan/Bush I era - think Bush I's pardon of Cap Weinberger and 5 others who started to testify under oath that Bush I was lying through his teeth when the former CIA head no less said he didn't know a thing about the Iran-Contra affair.

    The Republican administration wants limited liability. Plain and simple.

    So what does limited liability encourage? Risk taking. Or in the case of Republican Administration who have had a string of felony convicts starting with a crooked President himself forced from office, more lawbreaking. If they can, they will. Haven't we seen enough?

    Isn't it time to stop treating lawbreaking Republicans like fat-cat investors and hold them accountable to the law like everyone else? If we don't, guess what's coming in 4 years, or 8 or 12. Many of them are young. If we don't make cleaning up a priority, the Republican lawlessness will be back bigger than ever. I guarantee it.

  • Posted By: doctorfixit @ 11/24/2008 10:27:30 AM

    Obama and his liberal fascist supporters should be held in a Gitmo-like facilities because they are enemies of the American people, and they have forfeited all Constitutional rights with their treason.

    • Posted By: labman57 @ 11/24/2008 12:39:39 PM

      Somebody needs to get back on his meds.

      • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 11/24/2008 1:22:01 PM

        Do you Yanks have a breeding ground for these yahoos, perhaps? There seems to be a certain set of Americans that pride themselves on being ignorant yokels.

        • Posted By: TheVigil @ 11/25/2008 4:04:09 PM

          There is definitely an anti-educational and accusatory bent among some of my esteemable countrymen in these times.

        • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 11/24/2008 4:15:33 PM

          "Do you Yanks have a breeding ground for these yahoos, perhaps? There seems to be a certain set of Americans that pride themselves on being ignorant yokels. "

          Obviously the same place Sarah Palin came from. You are correct. doctorfixit is an ignorant yokel.

  • Posted By: MariannaD @ 11/24/2008 5:20:04 PM

    Ouch! http://www.unattributable.com/2008/11/newsweeks-mike-isikoff-fails-due-diligence/

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