China: Don’t Isolate, Integrate

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  • Posted By: calvinzhai @ 12/09/2008 9:15:52 AM

    Dear Yankee doodler : I am really sorry if any of my words affensed your feeling. Actually, I hope to have more equal and opern dialogue with people from different cultures on China's history and its "rise" as well as its huaman rights. You know I appreciate your thoughts very much though I know nothing about you. But that is not important. What matters here is I could hear your voice and in return I expressed mine, though some of what I posted might have made you uncomfortable. Forgive me if it really impressed you like that. We are all living on this sall planet and seeing from the space, we know well what we should keep and what we should give up. The gap between the West and the East is too wide and so many barriers set by human beings have prevented us for further understanding. Capitalism, communism or any other social ideologies cannot be the fundamental principle for our talks. Brainwashing exists in every corner of the world and we all have our limitations when see the others. But, I still respect all what you expressed here and hope to have the talk going on, because we all know communication can bridge the gap. Best wishes. Calvin

  • Posted By: calvinzhai @ 12/08/2008 9:28:27 AM

    Can the while Americans return theri homeland to the native Americans( the indians). Human society is developing ,so is the culture and ethnical relations. My friend, you totolly know nothing about Tibet and its role in the history and China. "Free Tibet" is nothing but a political slogan. What does the human right mean to you, to him or to me? We may get some universal ones, but mostly, they have different forms and developmental stages. Westerners' colonization and invasion in those weak lands and the racial discrimination in many different fields and aspects. Tibet's culture is unique, but this can never be the fundamental reason for its independence. If that so, many parts with similar situations would be independent nations.

    • Posted By: yankee doodler @ 12/08/2008 5:42:35 PM

      Dearest Cal: You had previously written that it is more realistic to be friendly than hostile. Yet in this post you freely insult me by your baseless disparagement of my knowledge. In fact, you know but little of what I know.

      As a citizen of a nation where information is freely available, we all know well of the 1950-59 invasions and of the very cruel and very hostile behavior against the indigenous people of Tibet in their ancient homelands.
      We also know well of the many excuses for this continuing outrage.

      You seem unconcerned that this anti-political conquest is thus destroying another culture. You ignore the military FEAR and brutality of the Red brigades which are unaccountable to the people they rule, including in China.
      It matters not that the iron fist is nowadays often disguised within a velvet glove and lubricated, for a while, by $ from U.S.-enabled world trade.

      What is clear is your contempt for the due political processes which help to insure the inalienable rights of civilized Human beings. One finds nothing friendly in your prejudicial thinking nor your in ideology and so, we who are born to liberty must remain hostile, not friendly, to such attitudes. But, it is surely too much to hope that 60 years of brainwashing by communist-party imposed terror can be cured in only one generation.

      Americans have long had a love affair with the Chinese people and have invested much with the intention that brothers and sisters in China can someday remove the shackles on their mind-bodies after centuries of locked-down oppression. I believe it is this honorable intention that underlies the faulty suggestion by Haass for integration now, the suggestion that is the subject of this comment section.

      Before such a close relationship happens, more son-and-daughter Heroes of Liberty will certainly arise in China to stand with the brave man who stopped the column of tanks in June of 1989 - before the massacre by the Red Army.

      You and your fellow travelers have simply ignored the facts, as well as the substance of my previous postings on December 1, 4 and 7. Perhaps you can review them now and come up with some new, creative commentary and ideas arising out of a spirit of free inquiry, instead of just making excuses, casting aspersions and cherry-picking things you can disagree with.

      In the meanwhile, we libertarians will
      stand with the man who stopped the tanks -
      and with President Lincoln to proclaim
      ??? ??? that government of the people, by the people,
      for the people, shall not perish from the earth.???

      We all have much to learn about each other.
      Believe it or Not.

  • Posted By: The genius @ 12/08/2008 2:29:01 PM

    Bloody variant in Tibet and Taiwan will be used by the USA for destabilization of China and OUTFLOW of the CAPITAL if China will disagree to invest in great volumes the foreign currency reserves in the USA.
    It is a variant, as in Georgia against Russia, and the assumption of such variant in India.

  • Posted By: The genius @ 12/08/2008 2:28:41 PM

    Bloody variant in Tibet and Taiwan will be used by the USA for destabilization of China and OUTFLOW of the CAPITAL if China will disagree to invest in great volumes the foreign currency reserves in the USA.
    It is a variant, as in Georgia against Russia, and the assumption of such variant in India.

  • Posted By: calvinzhai @ 12/07/2008 8:18:16 AM

    People from the other parts of the world may have misunderstood China because of the different cultures, thinking pattern and ideologies. However, once you come to this ancient land, you may change your ideas because many of your images about the nation is imagined or from the "second hand" information. People need to rediscover China, to see the communism government with an objective and historical perspective. Corruption and unequality which have been seen as serious violation of human rights have been existing in the government and society for many years, but the fact is people do benefit much from the opening-up and reform policy. The whole world has witnessed the fast growth of China's economy in the past 30 years, and the smooth development of China will contribute to the world greatly. Being friendly is more realsitic than being hostile. No one hope to back to the cold war.

    • Posted By: yankee doodler @ 12/07/2008 2:11:53 PM

      More apologetics! Imagined misunderstandings? This nation is a human rights horror! Be friendly? Free Tibet!

      • Posted By: calvinzhai @ 12/08/2008 9:27:30 AM

        Can the while Americans return theri homeland to the native Americans( the indians). Human society is developing ,so is the culture and ethnical relations. My friend, you totolly know nothing about Tibet and its role in the history and China. "Free Tibet" is nothing but a political slogan. What does the human right mean to you, to him or to me? We may get some universal ones, but mostly, they have different forms and developmental stages. Westerners' colonization and invasion in those weak lands and the racial discrimination in many different fields and aspects. Tibet's culture is unique, but this can never be the fundamental reason for its independence. If that so, many parts with similar situations would be independent nations.

  • Posted By: 123BruceLee @ 11/29/2008 6:58:38 PM

    This is one of the few rational articles I have read in main stream western media. The author got the point on neither exaggerating the potential "friendship" between the two most powful giants in the world nor boosting unrealistic containment. His arguments are based on pragmaticism. Any way, there is no eternal enemy or permanent ally in human history. If violence can not bring interest, selective cooperation is a better choice.
    It is unpractical for the present Uncle Sam to contain China economically and militarily, even if it may be available only ten years ago. Time has changed no matter peope like it or not.

    • Posted By: ajka @ 12/07/2008 11:33:46 AM

      Nothing is impossible - Europian Union has already snubbed China over Tibet, India is not happy with Chinese stand on it's border territory- If US starts working on isolating China, do you think there will be any markets left for Chinese goods? Just Africa or Pakistan left- Majorit of which needs aid rather than imports, . GUYS, impossible is the word in fools dictionary. If and when US decides, it will be done !.

      • Posted By: charlesbjz @ 12/08/2008 5:26:52 AM

        what a joke? Could you absolutely tell a product all parts of that are made somewhere but China? Unless all people stop consuming most things in your life, Made-in-china have to be a must in your life.

  • Posted By: The genius @ 12/07/2008 6:31:06 PM

    Chineses are reasonable people in a today's mad kind.
    Chineses are the world workers.
    China should not worship to the American values.
    I think, the Chinese policy is directed on not bringing troubles in the world.
    Russian and Chineses are brothers for ever.
    Chineses should check one thousand times all offers of the USA.

  • Posted By: jbz7879 @ 12/04/2008 4:25:58 PM

    i think this is a very alarming view particlularly as it seems to evade the primary crucial issue -fixation with iranian nukes and also the most crucial issue that a muslim state pakistan possess an arsenal of nukes -both the countries are democratic and i think america feels threatened and has continuously conspired against the people of both the states ,
    the current ploys of the mumbai attacks and the recent nuclear reports indicate the subversive motives of india israel and america ,
    pakistan needs to completely shun american collaboration and needs to collude with china and iran and it seems pakistan has got the message too ,
    asif zardari is an american sttoge and a nincompoop too and he needs to be sacked as soon as possible ,
    pakistan has to only look after its own interests and the war against terrorism has deeply devalued the structure of the state with the incompoetence and corrupt reign of musharraf and pakistan needs to follow the example of iran in standing on its own two feet and it is more then qualified to do so already as a nuclear power ,
    stooges lie zardari need to be seriously concerned that they do not play into the hands of a state which along with israel and india are bent upon the destruction of pakiustan -if they do not heeed then all these elements need to be replaced by patriotic and loyal pakistanis who have more insight and maturity .

    and god bless pakistan against all its so-called friends who are trying desperately to stab it in the back may it be whoever -

  • Posted By: Barry Liu @ 12/03/2008 5:28:23 PM

    Are we going to pamper a ruthless regime that is capable of killing its own people in cold blood? I don't think so. To engage, not to integrate, a beast is good enough for the purpose of international trade and the special interest of the greedy few. I, for example, will not even travel to China in exchange of any opportunity. The vast majority of chinese are extremely unfortunate to be governed brutally by the dictatorship. Why does the author attempt to prolong their misery by legitimizing the status quo. I must say his view is not in agreement with American value and funding principles.

    • Posted By: MoCuishle119 @ 12/03/2008 10:39:20 PM

      Interesting. Since you even doesn't travel to China, how did you get the conclusion of the living condition of majority of Chinese?

      • Posted By: pug_ster @ 12/03/2008 11:08:59 PM

        I agree. Barry Liu has the case of the 'White Man's Burden.' China will rise with or without working with the US. The question is that whether the US wants to be China's partner or adversary.

        • Posted By: yankee doodler @ 12/04/2008 12:40:42 AM

          Free enterprise must be free and free enterprise is required of, by and for the free! We democrats see most Chinese yearning to be free, but trapped by a stifling, idiot ideology, pug, like by an ugly plug in an evil jinni jug! Can you dig it?

          • Posted By: 123BruceLee @ 12/04/2008 8:14:52 AM

            My dear yankee friend, I advise you spend one month, travelling to China to talk with local people, then you will realize what Chinese want. You must be very surprised as most of the Westerners who have never been to China.

            • Posted By: yankee doodler @ 12/04/2008 6:59:58 PM

              YOU MIGHT BE A HERO - A bit more Shaolin insightfulness and compassion may someday relieve you of your Marxist beliefs that Human consciousness, societies, and relationships to production arise from the material conditions, technologies and infrastructures brought into being by economic structures, class struggles, political parties, religions, governments, etc.



              Liberty, Human rights and democracy are NOT reactions to state-collective imposed infrastructures but come first in order of evolution. Except, it seems, for deeply-corrupted, pre-Renaissance societies that apparently need to be smashed totally before the inalienable rights of Human beings can be re-established.



              Now in the 21st Century, the old culture having been (almost) totally smashed in China, perhaps there is hope for long-lost liberties to rise again after centuries of virtual slavery of the masses. But, what a monumental price to pay! If only Humans could develop some flexibility of thinking, feeling and behavior! so difficult if one is a slave.



              Liberty DOES create power and wealth, as well as science and technology, because no state or religious enterprise can be, or ever has been, as creative as individual Human beings in societies that honor free enterprise. Liberty requires heroes who will serve as free entrepreneurs



              In Bruce Lee???s last movie, Enter the Dragon, the character Lee journeyed to find a man named Han reigning cruelly over his island realm of slave workers, like a divine maestro conducting things from his grand but decadent palace; he was abusing his own Shaolin warrior skills to gain wealth and power for himself and for his gang (party). Soon, the slave workers rallied to the spirit and being of Lee, a true hero of the Way, and they called for the arrest of the tyrant Han and so, the story had a happy ending.



              In the movie, it is said that Lee the actor especially wanted to show the beauty of China, a beauty we can all appreciate, even though the beauty of societies long free is much greater to those raised to be free. We saw some of the beauty in the recent Olympics from China but the revealed stultifying regimentation of mass conformity was not at all beautiful. In fact, it deeply chilled the souls of many Americans, maybe contributing to a new American renaissance in 2009.

              • Posted By: yankee doodler @ 12/04/2008 7:01:18 PM

                CONTINUED: Perhaps You are the one who should go to today???s China! a huge nation-state ruled by the tyranny of a few of the minority, named Han, who think of themselves as a race, very special, very separate. Right? This one, which is I, will never personally go to China so long as it maintains its massive gulag of prison ???correction??? camps. Friends who have visited tell of how nice the natives are but I have always found that people trained by fear to be subservient often seem charming - at first.



                I like my entertainments before as well as after my meals (re: your of Dec. 1 post) and I don???t like meals cooked up by prisoners of ideologies that demand subservience. It is free enterprise by free people that created America, not tyrants, party ideologies and stooges - but the struggle for liberty is as eternal as the struggle for existence



                We need more heroes willing to enter the contest and then to chop, kick, and otherwise struggle against ideas that support government by tyrants, not to give them approval, not to seek integration with them, not to be afraid. (Re: my Dec. 01 post).



                In summary: True Human creativity grows from the free Will of Human beings and not from revealed ideologies, special races, party hacks, mass regimentation, etc. Be heroic, neither foolish nor afraid!



                Do you get it yet, you who have adopted a hero name?



                -



                Shall you kneel in deep submission from your cradle to your grave?
                Is the height of your ambition to be a good and willing slave?"



                The Preacher and the Slave,

                verse of a song by labor-hero Joe Hill

                http://mysite.verizon.net/rogmios/id23.html



                xxx

      • Posted By: Jack999 @ 12/04/2008 11:31:21 AM

        What are you trying to imply?You want them to adopts our Western Democracy Values? Oh,,,for your info they aready on the way just that,but the probems they're not even really ready to follows our decency democracy ,the consequences will back-fire specially they're following blindly individual right and believes that the US Second Amendment are good practice to follows, keeping and bearing of arms by a single individual as well as by a group of individuals, but it cannot prohibit the possession or use of any weapon which has any reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia.

        They are already excercise their right in carrying Powerful Assult Rifles in streets of Madras,Bankok ,Jakarta so dont blame them as they doesnt know what's is Other's RIGHT only their individual Right.By the Way "WHY"there are so Many Americans keeping stock of powerful Assault Rifles even though as it allows in second amenedment,can 't they just go with normal Shot-gun justify if they needs to? or are they intends to shoot ELEPHANT or what?

      • Posted By: yankee doodler @ 12/04/2008 12:14:23 AM

        Why don't you know, Mo?

  • Posted By: The genius @ 12/04/2008 5:36:30 PM

    Here is how it turns out! Communistic China is the colleague of the capitalist USA. And capitalist Russia is the enemy of the capitalist USA. Cheaply many in the USA have changed the adherence of ideology for cowards and socks which sew in China. And Russia, certainly, the enemy because does not give natural riches.
    It shows duplicity and an infinite deceit from the USA. Also there is no eternal adherence "freedom of speech", "democracy".
    Certainly, number of Chineses is great and most in the world do children's toys, but not it defines spirit of the leader.
    Ask to itself a question. Why in Middle Ages Russian have passed through all Siberia, passed many thousand miles and have reached Pacific ocean, and Chineses could not be forwarded through the river the Cupid and pass one hundred kilometers, to attach uninhabited territories. Look at a geographical card!
    Why Russian armies during the second world war in all territory of China had been crushed million army of Japan for couple of weeks.
    Why Chineses have bought a space survival suit from Russia and painfully understood, as it is arranged.
    You so trust in a cliche of figures about the size of economy that becomes ridiculous!

  • Posted By: Jack999 @ 12/04/2008 10:01:01 AM

    You People are Just the Hypocrites here,Please makes some efforts to study about one's cultures and history before you open your mouth critizing others.If you look back at China historic days,that back dated 3,000 years ago,they have made tremendous improvement towards "WESTERN DEMOCRACY" they before are NOT use to what we called ourself "WESTERN CIVILIZATION SOCIETY" by going thorugh SELECTING our Leaders in General Elections on Majority votes "HEAD COUNT".The Chinese have NEVER had that opportunity we have now before till now ,They only knows the "HEAD CHOP" method who againts them when selecting their Leaders ,slowly they're fast approaching what we practices today.Give them times,I wont be surprise they can even bypass us in adopting Democracy High Standards in future.

    Many great examples, Yes we western created Computers Technology,but now how we see them through becoming computer system experts even we can't match their standard and able to defence our themselves when the chinese creates the chaos world-wide aslo the US Commerce Secretary system being Hacked by them.They now even advance catching up us in space ,the Chinese few months back ,launching their own astronaut in Moon.They show the world ,how their military capabilities by using china made silk worm missile to shoot "bulleye" their own old satelite in spcae from earth,few years back.

    So stop whining about their democracy practices that we can can be "regrets"later when especially we westerner use by "FORCE " for them to adopts their democracy when actually time they're NOT READY and prepare yet ,Take a look at Thailand and Indonesia they never know how to create Choas , Havoc,Security uncertainty that cause political unstability even now we Westerners afraid and feels safe of travelling to this area ,they're following our Democracy what we practices ,demonstration ,Many foreigners curse and swears about their action that cause many starnded traveller for few days in airport being hold -up,some American even stranded sleeping at airport for Not being on time for Thanks-Giving.

    By the way I 'hve been many times to all these places before I know what Im saying....

  • Posted By: maninthewilderness @ 12/03/2008 7:10:00 PM

    there are simply too many chinese.. its unfortunate but nature doesnt like overpopulation and will act accordingly... we dont "deal" with china.. nature does.. it also deals with us too.... if were not careful we shall share their fate...

    • Posted By: MoCuishle119 @ 12/03/2008 10:21:50 PM

      So same thing will happen to Indians too?

      • Posted By: yankee doodler @ 12/04/2008 1:23:16 AM

        India seems doomed to be fractured by the nasty bickering of its religious ideologues, just as China seems doomed by the tyrannical intention to quash any ideology except corporate communism.

        Does the term tragic irony ring a bell, huh? May heaven help us all, all 7 billion of us.

  • Posted By: Barry Liu @ 12/04/2008 12:44:51 AM

    Don't be so sure. Just look upon your old-grand-brother, Soviet Union, dissolving like ice in the wake of spring breeze.

  • Posted By: promisberg @ 12/02/2008 6:02:13 PM

    Richard Hass is a new world order shill. One needs to study his writings in context of what the goals and aspirations of the CFR are and who they represent, Hint it is not the masses of the world! Who is the CFR how and why were they formed? What is there involvement in organizing other organizations and foundations of elites that answer to no citizens but only to themselves? It is scary to me to see Richard Hass printed twice recently in Newsweek as a "contributor". What, ultimately, he is contributing too is the loss of sovereignty of all nations and the ultimate control granted to unelected elites, corporations and banks. This man and his ??? article??? exemplify how the elite are constantly taking baby steps to further their one-world government goals with the direct (ordered) backing of the media. In addition, the MSM spoon-fed uneducated sheeple drinks this crap up without a second thought.

    Please explore the history for yourself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPlvdSQ6cAM

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6632255652046262625&ei=kbQ1SZ-kNJXeqAPi8NzKCA&q=CFR&hl=en

    http://www.indytruth.org/cfr.html

    http://www.cfr.org/publication/9903/sovereignty_and_globalisation.html

    LEAGLIZE THE CONSTITUTION!

  • Posted By: promisberg @ 12/02/2008 4:49:36 PM

    Richard Hass is a new world order shill!

  • Posted By: DrewCAENG @ 12/02/2008 4:40:42 AM

    Yes I have read the Shcok Doctrine, I love the way everyone reads that book and suddenly they know everything. It is a very good book and very informative but you a contradicting yourself. Those poor innocent S. American, Eastern European and Asian leaders who were "bullied" by the US according to you based off your twisted interpretation of the book simply took neo liberal policy which you may or may not agree with and impossed it with a disgusting fervor. The IMF and World Bank did push their hands but those instititions are multilateral my friend. All of these leaders friends and family benefited during the transition to capitalism, Chinese communists and Yeltsin Russians and yes many western Investors including the EU. The word Bully is a little too black and white. and you need to stop seeing everything through your lens of bitterness.

    Yes Americans have been taken for a ride but the fact remains they are some of the most succesfull and well off in the world, so the ride might not have been that bad? Look at yourself and your own country first. If China and Russia had the ability to set up a rivaled military do you think they would? China has quickly been increasing military spending and so has Russia so your point is lost - just becasue they dont have the biggest guns doesnt mean they dont aspire to.

  • Posted By: nawawimohamad @ 12/02/2008 3:51:06 AM

    Whatever official version pertaining to any issue and those written in the mainstream media have somehow made people to believe just one side of the issue without a second thought. But to be fair to oneself please also check on other information and other versions of the same issue, instead of just blaming everything on the US. Now how many have died due to the US bullying others and how many have been killed by Russia and China? Have we seen any country being occupied by Russia and China? How many Russian bases are there in the world and how many Chinese fleet are roaming the seas? How many nuclear bombs have been dropped by Russia and China? How many are there sanctions against other nations by Russia and China?

    The fact is that the American public have been taken for a ride by those in power. By the way, the president is not the real power, it is the people behind him! So in this case, what happened to the aspiration of the voters?

  • Posted By: ChristianAmerican @ 12/01/2008 10:16:33 AM

    Posted By: DrewCAENG @ 12/01/2008 7:44:29 AM
    Comment: your a moron Nawawim...Ive seen the same anti everyting american from you on all your posts. China doesnt bully people either? What about Russia? How about some constructive comments? Are you bitter jelous or both buddy?

    ----------------------------------

    He is not an American - he is a mideasterner (Arab)?) or India Muslim or Pakistani (Nawawi Mohamad).

    • Posted By: nawawimohamad @ 12/02/2008 3:39:19 AM

      I am not anti- American but please read the book entitled "SHOCK DOCTRINE" by Naomi Klien. Don't just believe whatever is written in it, but give it a serious thought!

  • Posted By: jemeric @ 11/30/2008 8:13:30 PM

    We need India and India needs us more than holds for our relationship with China. China's economic power and military power has been largely overstated lately due to the post-Olympic hype. But the reality is China's demographics and lack of transparency will ultimately hit it big time in the next 10 - 20 years. Expecting economic growth to remain stable over that period is very naive.

    By approximately 2025 India will have a larger, more ethnically diverse, younger, and faster growing population than China. They are a democracy trapped between Chinese authoritarism, a Burmese dictatorship and Islamic radicalism. Promoting and strengthening the India democracy will be far more rewarding to the Western world over the long run. If India can overcome its many domestic problems it could truly represent a beacon of progress in the 21st century and spread the value of human rights to its neighbours. As for China, it would be unwise to isolate it but there is a much more promising investment opportunity to the south; we do not need to move through the 21st century reliant on Chinese authoritarism.

    • Posted By: HaavBline @ 12/01/2008 10:47:41 AM

      Would any sane investor bet thei money in a country that is perpetually at war with itself and with its neighbors? That India is such a country is right now on display. India should focus on solving its onw problems, rather than filling with jealousy about China.

      • Posted By: 123BruceLee @ 12/01/2008 3:38:34 PM

        It is interesting to see this anylisis. Democracy is only the method on how to divide power and wealth among people, democracy do NOT create power and wealth. It is science and technology that works.
        My Indian friend has mistakenly beleive pie will fall from the sky. Without the infrustructure and industry upgrade, how can India support more than 1.4 billion Indian at 2025? Entertainment is only enjoyable after a good meal. So is the human rights and democracy.

  • Posted By: nawawimohamad @ 12/01/2008 3:26:06 AM

    "Our goal should be to make China a pillar of a globalized world, too deeply invested to disrupt its smooth functioning." This is the kind of twisted and dangerous mentality of th US trying to bully others. The US thinks that China is stupid. Why is the US so paranoid about China? Leave China alone. The US has got more problems than it can handle. I hope Russia will continue to prosper together with China and India while the US will continue waging never-ending and losing wars. This may teach US the bully some useful lessons for it to be more be more prudent and not wasting the tax payers money and the aspiration of the voters.

    • Posted By: yankee doodler @ 12/01/2008 3:37:26 PM

      May the fleas of ten thousand camels infest your mother???s nether regions........

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