A Gay Marriage Surge

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  • Posted By: Motorinstructor @ 12/06/2008 11:23:13 AM

    I agree with you CherrieBerrie that we should love the homosexual, except that to legislate gay marriage would be the beginning of the end for our civilization. Study history and you will see that empires such as ancient Rome, where homosexuality was widespread, met their doom. America will also fall if we turn away from God's Word. Immorality should never be legislated into law.

    • Posted By: shmaverick @ 12/06/2008 12:13:44 PM

      A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Homosexuality was widespread in Rome during its rise, as well as its decline. Roman civilization lasted 2000 years (Republic 500 yrs, Empire 500 yrs, its successor, the Byzantine Empire, another 1000 years). The most homosexually-inclined of the ancient Greek civilizations, Athens, was also its most successful and enduringly influential, giving us our own notions of democracy, jury trials, philosophy, theatre, and countless other things. (Check out Plato's discussion of homosexual love in "Phaedrus." Love between men was not only considered normal, but a higher form of love than between a man and a woman.) Alexander the Great, an open homosexual, founded Hellenistic civilizations that endured in Europe, Asia Minor and North Africa for hundreds of years. A reasoned and informed reader of history (and not someone who's merely prattled about reading history) would conclude that the presence or absence of homosexuality has NOTHING to do with the rise or decline of civilization.

      • Posted By: Motorinstructor @ 12/06/2008 1:02:54 PM

        From fresian.com comes the following quote: "Everyone knows why the Roman Empire fell. It became "decadent," meaning weak and immoral. The Romans were so busy at their orgies (often with their siblings), throwing Christians to the lions, poisoning their spouses, parents, and children, and eating exotic parts of animals (like hummingbird tongues), in between visits to the vomitorium so they could eat more, that they didn't notice all the Germans gathering on the frontiers. Then the ruthless pagan Germans rode in, trampled under their horses' hooves the few poor debauched legionnaires who remained, still foolishly fighting on foot, sacked Rome, destroyed civilization, overthrew the last emperor in 476, and ushered in the Dark Ages, from which Europe only emerged with the Renaissance, a thousand years later, when gunpowder finally could defeat mounted warriors. As the columnist Joseph Sobran wrote recently: Christianity built a new civilization on the "ruins" of the old." It was a general decadence that destroyed Rome. Sin is like a cancer that if it is not removed will spread and destroy acivilization. In Rome's case it took a little longer, but it eventually went down as America also will if it accepts evil and immorality.

        • Posted By: shmaverick @ 12/06/2008 2:20:15 PM

          Geez, Motorinstructor, you didn't even read past the first paragraph of the article you cite! The very next paragraph points out that this is a caricature, a FALSE picture:

          "Although accepted by no real historians, this cartoonish image looms large in popular discourse, is lovingly promoted in the movies,.......[and] is often assumed in political and moral debates -- where some practice (e.g. pornography) or policy (e.g. gay rights) is frequently said to represent the decadence that brought about the Fall of Rome -- and is inadvertently often reinforced by various kinds of serious scholarship."

          Read "Decadence, Rome, and Romania" for yourself at:
          http://www.friesian.com/decdenc1.htm

          The whole article argues that homosexuality and decadence DIDN'T bring down Rome.

          The recognition of same-sex marriages under U.S. law will not bring about the end of our civilization, and no serious historical scholarship will support this hysterical and ridiculous assertion. Our current economic decline--manufactured by greedy bankers, irresponsible Congressmen, corrupted executive power, and a gullible and financially irresponsible citizens--can't be laid at the feet of gay people.

          • Posted By: Motorinstructor @ 12/06/2008 3:02:34 PM

            Even if the comment wasn't totally accurate, it was not far from the truth. The Emporer Nero did order Christians to be burned as human torches to light Roman streets and he did order them to be thrown to the lions in the Coloseum. They certainly were not destroyed because they were a righteos nation!

            • Posted By: shmaverick @ 12/06/2008 3:44:23 PM

              Yes, therein lies the entire rub of this debate: Your "truth" bears little or no relationship with being "accurate" about the facts. Like many of the most outspoken voices opposing same-sex marriage, you cherry-pick information to suit your prejudices, without allowing the entirety of the evidence to inform your opinion. It makes rational discussion impossible, because you won't acknowledge ANY facts that are inconvenient to your perspective. Here's a few more facts that won't change your mind:
              --The reign of the most licentious, brutal and corrupt Roman emperors ended a full 200 years before the "fall" of Rome.
              --Christianity was made the official religion of Rome in the 300's, and was the dominant religion in the Empire, with full official support, for over 150 years before the fall of Rome.
              --The "barbarians" who toppled Rome were ALL, except for the Franks, Christians also, having been converted hundreds of years before by missionaries. The so-called "Dark Ages" of Europe consisted of Christian kings and lords ruling over a Christian populace.

              None of this ACCURATE historical information fits the fantasy that Rome's political, economic, and military troubles stemmed from a "moral decline." The fall of the Christian Roman Empire and its replacement by a Christian medieval civilization that was substantially less advanced indicates that morality had nothing to do with it.

  • Posted By: OttoPilot @ 12/06/2008 1:02:14 PM

    Yes, but in terms of governmental regulation of marriage, it simply doesn't matter what the Christian Bible says, does it?

  • Posted By: dr. bob @ 12/06/2008 10:58:57 AM

    Gay marriage has not lost 0 for 30. Conn. and Mass. allow it, several other states are about to, and Calif. Prop .8 will be thrown out as unconstitutional. Yes there is a surge for gay marriage and gay adoptions because the Constitutions protect them and when others try to take rights away from an equal group, you will get some mighty pissed off people, which created a backlash and a surge. Too bad you don't like the polls, too ba

    • Posted By: fesofee @ 12/06/2008 11:05:57 AM

      Yes it has. It's lost in EVERY state where a VOTE was allowed.

      • Posted By: shmaverick @ 12/06/2008 12:41:54 PM

        Gay marriage opponents' enthusiasm for the democratic process is NOT a matter of principle (like you're pretending it is), but an entirely selective and opportunistic abuse of ballot initiatives. When gay marriage initiatives begin to win majority votes, as they will in the next 10-15 years, you and folks like you will not be so enthusiastic about "majority rule." A principled stance would be that the rights of citizens have no business being put to a vote in the first place. The 14th Amendment of the U.S. constitution guarantees the equal protection of ALL citizens under the law. It was specifically designed to prevent these kinds of ballot initiatives, which single out same-sex couples in order to strip them of inheritance rights, hospital visitation rights, spousal benefits (including health care), and the tax benefits of marriage. Domestic partnerships, which are not universally recognized and are not honored even in some states that have them (see the case of Lt. Laurel Hester in NJ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Hester), don't provide the same legal protections that marriage does.

  • Posted By: jomommas @ 12/06/2008 12:15:15 PM

    If you have time to play with yourself and want some kind of hand out for it , you need to get a life.

  • Posted By: jomommas @ 12/06/2008 12:14:35 PM

    Please get a job and cut the sex bull.

  • Posted By: matos @ 12/06/2008 2:31:52 AM

    MBUSDTeacher , we all know it occurs in nature but my question is why? why would nature do that and why is it happening .
    This normal or not normal does not answer my question
    Anybody?

    • Posted By: postmodernprimate @ 12/06/2008 12:03:29 PM

      matos, there are many theories about why nature selects for homosexuality. Below is a study that should help you understand why the idea is not so illogical.

      Homosexuality, Birth Order, and Evolution:
      Towards a Equilibrium Reproductive Economics of Homosexuality

      "The survival of a human predisposition for homosexuality can be explained by sexual orientation being a polygenetic trait that is influenced by a number of genes. During development these shift male brain development in the female direction. Inheritance of several such alleles produces homosexuality. Single aleles make for greater sensitivity, empathy, tendermindedness, and kindness. These traits make heterosexual carriers of the genes better fathers and more attractive mates. There is a balanced polymorphism in which the feminizing effect of these alleles in heterosexuals offsets the adverse effects (on reproductive success) of these alleles contribution to homosexuality. A similar effect probably occurs for genes that can produce lesbianism in females.

      The whole system survives because it serves to provide a high degree of variability among the personalities of offspring, providing the genotype with diversification, and reducing competition among offspring for the same niches. An allele with a large effect can survive in these circumstances in males, but it is less likely to survive in females.

      The birth order effect on homosexuality is probably a byproduct of a biological mechanism that shifts personalities more in the feminine direction in the later born sons, reducing the probability of these sons engaging in unproductive competition with each other."


      http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/em_homosexuality.html

  • Posted By: nickpr53 @ 12/06/2008 11:19:39 AM

    it's the right thing.. in our society if enough people want it then so be it..

  • Posted By: CherrieBerrie @ 12/06/2008 11:13:19 AM

    This is to all of the right-wingers out there spouting off Biblical Passages.......Back in the 50's when we went to Neosho Missouri to visit our cousins the oldes being John Bandy, we knew that he was different but we had never heard the words Gay or Homo...My Maternal Aunt Mildre's husband Uncle Merle was a Nazerene Minister; when they found out that he was gay they NEVER SHUNNED HIM. They loved him no matter what!! That to me is the true test of a Christ's Christian..John Bandy was the first of the thousands to die of AIDS. My Aunt Mildred can cite most likely over half of the Bible...If she can be a true Christian I don't see how difficult it is for all of the SUPPOSED CHRIATIANS out there. Being raised a Staunch Sothern Baptist I have a background of Christ's teachings and have lived my life according to his LOVE. Christ is not a BIGOT, nor would he shun anyone for their beliefs or sexual orientation!!!! Happily Married Hetero Woman in California for EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL AMERICANS!!!! WE SHALL OVERCOME!!!!

  • Posted By: martialguy @ 12/06/2008 10:09:50 AM

    I think gay people should have... their own state, just like the Mormons who loves to have multiple wives in Utah. I am thinking...Alaska?

    • Posted By: dwmusic @ 12/06/2008 11:11:01 AM

      martialguy no doubt your comment about us having our own state is tongue in cheek, but what would you do without all our taxes? And the labour we unstintingly commit to our communities, unencumbered by the exigencies of child rearing? While you raise kids, we can keep working. And if all you heteros go off and killed in another war, we can (and have) at least provide the wherewithall to keep the human species going, despite it not being in our natural orientation to do so. Looking at a global demographic, there's actually enough of us around (somethinig in excess of 300 million homosexuals worldwide) to form our own superpower. I am tempted by this thought (tongue in cheek again:).

  • Posted By: Motorinstructor @ 12/06/2008 10:54:30 AM

    Recently California, a liberal state, defeated gay marriage. By an large. America does not want this and the more it is shoved down our throats the more backlash will result.

  • Posted By: theworldisnotenough @ 12/06/2008 10:43:01 AM

    Sigh, didn't the media hype polls prior to the election in California? How may times did I hear that the time for gay marriage has come, you just can't stop it. So when it fails the media pushes pro gay marriage reporting, and runs a poll a few weeks later confirming their own suspicions. No wonder the media is dying. Gay marriage lost... in CALIFORNIA! Not Montana or South Carolina, not Kansas. in California ! That's 0 for 30 on the gay marriage front. But the media wants to continune to be pro gay marriage. The media is not a reflection of their audience, and is driving that audience away. Editoors need to start thinking circulation because the Big 3 is not getting a bailout and neither are you.

  • Posted By: dr. bob @ 12/06/2008 10:40:59 AM

    Marriage is a government licensed function available to same and opposite sex coupl;es. The Constitutions protect that and can not be changed by a popular vote. Those states that have altered the Constitution will be sued for discrimination and writing discrimination into a government sworn to protect against discrimination. The bans of same sex marriage and adoption will be thrown out as unconstitutionally invalid.

  • Posted By: g76monte @ 12/06/2008 10:31:18 AM

    i'm all for civil unions, because it is about rights. but this poll is absolute garbage, EVERY TIME this issue has been VOTED ON, traditional marriage WINS out.

  • Posted By: CherrieBerrie @ 12/06/2008 10:08:53 AM

    I live here in California, 2 hours away from the Bay Area, and I Blog on the SFGate Chronical web-site. I with thousands of others thought that Prop* would fail..We were very very wrong. However weWILL NOT GIVE UP THE FIGHT FOR EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL AMERICANS..I am a happily married Hetero Woman that is committed to the belieg that it is not the right of any group, be it a religious, or other, as well as the Goverment to mandate how people should live their lives. This is granted in our great Constitution for all people no matter their religious, political, or sexual orientation. Posted by Cherrie in Angles Camp CA,

  • Posted By: CherrieBerrie @ 12/06/2008 10:01:14 AM

    I live here in California

  • Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/06/2008 9:55:59 AM

    To any and all conservative Christians fighting against gay rights on Biblical grounds: LAWS BASED ON THE BIBLE ARE AGAINST THE FIRST AMENDMENT, specifically the Establishment clause.

    If you are attempting to write Biblical laws into the U.S. legal system, you are in violation of Constitutional principles. You are acting in a way that is utterly unpatriotic, as well as genuinely illegal.

    It's worrisome to me to watch so many people trying to "defend American principles" when they don't understand what those principles are and do not understand Constitutional law. To anyone reading this - I urge us all to uphold the separation of Church and State. Vigorously oppose any and all laws instituted on religious grounds. We all need to stand up and recognize that there are many ways to have a decent, loving, and fulfilling life!!!!

  • Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/06/2008 9:55:59 AM

    To any and all conservative Christians fighting against gay rights on Biblical grounds: LAWS BASED ON THE BIBLE ARE AGAINST THE FIRST AMENDMENT, specifically the Establishment clause.

    If you are attempting to write Biblical laws into the U.S. legal system, you are in violation of Constitutional principles. You are acting in a way that is utterly unpatriotic, as well as genuinely illegal.

    It's worrisome to me to watch so many people trying to "defend American principles" when they don't understand what those principles are and do not understand Constitutional law. To anyone reading this - I urge us all to uphold the separation of Church and State. Vigorously oppose any and all laws instituted on religious grounds. We all need to stand up and recognize that there are many ways to have a decent, loving, and fulfilling life!!!!

  • Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/06/2008 9:55:58 AM

    To any and all conservative Christians fighting against gay rights on Biblical grounds: LAWS BASED ON THE BIBLE ARE AGAINST THE FIRST AMENDMENT, specifically the Establishment clause.

    If you are attempting to write Biblical laws into the U.S. legal system, you are in violation of Constitutional principles. You are acting in a way that is utterly unpatriotic, as well as genuinely illegal.

    It's worrisome to me to watch so many people trying to "defend American principles" when they don't understand what those principles are and do not understand Constitutional law. To anyone reading this - I urge us all to uphold the separation of Church and State. Vigorously oppose any and all laws instituted on religious grounds. We all need to stand up and recognize that there are many ways to have a decent, loving, and fulfilling life!!!!

  • Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/06/2008 9:55:54 AM

    To any and all conservative Christians fighting against gay rights on Biblical grounds: LAWS BASED ON THE BIBLE ARE AGAINST THE FIRST AMENDMENT, specifically the Establishment clause.

    If you are attempting to write Biblical laws into the U.S. legal system, you are in violation of Constitutional principles. You are acting in a way that is utterly unpatriotic, as well as genuinely illegal.

    It's worrisome to me to watch so many people trying to "defend American principles" when they don't understand what those principles are and do not understand Constitutional law. To anyone reading this - I urge us all to uphold the separation of Church and State. Vigorously oppose any and all laws instituted on religious grounds. We all need to stand up and recognize that there are many ways to have a decent, loving, and fulfilling life!!!!

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