The Abortion Wars Get Technical

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  • Posted By: lanzone @ 12/19/2008 9:33:41 PM

    Women today do not need to have an abortion to experience depression and or suicidal thoughts, the sad fact that women are losing their rights to govern their bodies is enough to inflict feelings of worthlessness. Furthermore, only when a women has found herself in an "existing relationship" (voluntarily or involuntarily) is she extended the benefit of healthcare where she, more than likely, could not have afforded independently. With laws like this, social opinion will favor the idea that a women's worth is based on her reproductive capabilities and or accomplishments. Tragically, many women will begin to share this opinion too.

    • Posted By: darincoveyjc@cox.net @ 12/20/2008 1:13:25 PM

      Amazing how a person can seem so passionate about the right for somone to govern their body and then rip that same right away from the unborn child...

  • Posted By: crwcpa @ 12/10/2008 11:15:50 AM

    Important question to the author. Do you have a soul? If so, when did you receive it? I believe that abortion should be LEGAL and stay LEGAL. But, we should be honest about what is happening during an abortion. So, again, do you have a soul? and if so when did you receive it? After you were physically born? at conception? A human life is taken during an abortion if you believe that a soul is received at conception. Be honest with your readers about your soul. Do you have one? Let's drop the euphemisms, "reproductive choice" etc. Abortion is killing a human being. Again, I believe that it should stay legal and be widely available. I am just honest about the reality of what happens during an abortion.

    • Posted By: Nesta12572 @ 12/12/2008 3:38:59 PM

      If you actually believe in the concept of "soul" then you would know that one does not receive a soul. One is the soul, what is received is the physical housing, the body. Within belief systems that support the idea of soul, abortion is not "killing" anything, it is simply removing the physical housing. Belief systems that espouse the concept of an everlasting soul claim that the soul, what is actually the person, cannot be killed.

      • Posted By: darincoveyjc@cox.net @ 12/19/2008 8:47:59 PM

        By your logic then, if we murder our 4 , 5 , or 6 year old children it's ok...? because they really cannot be killed... you need help...

    • Posted By: Nesta12572 @ 12/12/2008 3:38:20 PM

      If you actually believe in the concept of "soul" then you would know that one does not receive a soul. One is the soul, what is received is the physical housing, the body. Within belief systems that support the idea of soul, abortion is not "killing" anything, it is simply removing the physical housing. Belief systems that espouse the concept of an everlasting soul claim that the soul, what is actually the person, cannot be killed.

  • Posted By: BIAWanker @ 12/10/2008 1:36:45 PM

    So MEN are the ones who get to decide weither or not I can have an abortion, and Christianity is thier defense?
    "Why can`t I decide what I can and cannot do with my body?"
    "Because Jesus says so"
    You know, this would never have been an issue if men were the ones giving birth, having to live with the circumstances of either failed birth control, RAPE, INCEST. If they were faced with having to decide weither or not to have an abortion, the result of having been raped by their father as I have, then it wouldn`t be an issue. And using Christianity as a crutch is just.. well, illogical as religion is in itself, but it`s also irrisponsible.
    And having doctors recite a script that is medically untrue, I just can`t believe that this is what America stands for. "Let's put our Christian faith on top of everyones shoulders, and jeapordize a womans health because we`re so gay for Jesus"
    Makes you wonder who the real terrorists are

    • Posted By: darincoveyjc@cox.net @ 12/19/2008 8:40:50 PM

      you are free to do whatever you want... we don't want to force you into any religion. you can reject Jesus, thats your right. we do want to protect innocent children, thats it ! ( inside or outside the womb ) something wrong with that...?

  • Posted By: Tammy _724 @ 12/07/2008 9:25:48 AM

    Why should women have to "find another pharmacy" of "find another doctor" when it is their constitutional right to receive these services! What if you went to the gas station and the owner refused to sell you gas because he didn't like your gas guzzling car? Sure you could find another gas station, but wouldn't you be furious? Womens' rights should be protected, not discounted.

    • Posted By: AliciaCarla1955 @ 12/19/2008 2:11:40 PM

      Really, where in the constitution does it guarantee the right to and specific medical care?

      Doctors do have the right to refuse to provide an specific treatment to a patient for a lot of reasons. I think it is reasonable to allow a doctor to refuse to perform an abortion if that is in violation of his beliefs.

      Pharmacists are different. They dispense medication based on a doctors prescription. They should never second guess the doctor and they should NEVER under an circumstances refuse to provide a properly prescribed medication that they have in stock. If they do not feel that they can do this, they should seek a new profession.

      BTW, if you owned a full service gas station it would be your right to refuse service to any particular person. You simply need to post your objections, like "No shirt, no shoes, no service" signs.

  • Posted By: kayper @ 12/13/2008 2:12:13 PM

    If women can choose, why can't health care providers? They are people with choices too! Women who want such services will certainly be able to search for providers that have chosen to provide these services.

    • Posted By: AliciaCarla1955 @ 12/19/2008 12:09:20 PM

      Most health providers take an oath to help people. I would accept that a doctor can choose to refuse to provide a particular service, but he or she is still under an obligation to provide complete accurate information.

      As for a pharmacist they should fill any and all prescriptions regardless of their beliefs. If they can't do that they should find another profession.

  • Posted By: TyreeL @ 12/12/2008 4:41:50 AM

    Blah. I apologize for the typos. It's clearly a sign I need to go to bed.

  • Posted By: TyreeL @ 12/12/2008 4:41:00 AM

    There's no reason a doctor should be forced to be provide services he doesn't believe in, such as abortion. We can't ignore the rights of the providers because the women have rights to. They aren't being forced not to have the service or not to make the choices they wished to make. Forcing the providers to provide the services would be doing just that to them. On the other hand, I don't believe fighting abortion with inaccurate statistics is effective. There's a lot of ways to help 'fight' abortion, but that would involve funding family planning clinics, abandoning abstinece only eduction (despite being a Christian, I cannot suppor this) and increasing services to poor women. But those would involve more tax dollars than a law that allows workers to say no.

  • Posted By: amycnote @ 12/10/2008 4:37:14 PM

    Just say no to sex with pro-lifers!

    • Posted By: Marc Morales @ 12/10/2008 9:09:58 PM

      Very interesting. A religious fanatic who is trying to use evolution and gene selection to eliminate a group of individuals. I always find it interesting when someone chooses to use reason and science on a selected basis, for their own purposes, without implying acceptance of the overall argument. Those people are the worst because they sit on the fence and can't make up their minds. At least be completely ignorant and disagree with all science that contradicts the Bible.

      On-the-fence-Christians, if you want to subscribe to reason and evidence don't hold on to random ridiculous passages because they sound right and/or that guy on Sunday morning tells you to. It only announces your hypocrisy and how incomplete and incompatible your ideas of the world are. Changing a religious fundamentalists understanding of complex social issues is like dragging a child kicking and screaming through the store except this has taken a couple thousand years and we're still not done. The main reason fundamentalists skip over the parts of the Bible that recommend live beatings, burnings, cannibalism, slavery and all the other equally ludicrous aspects is because it's become socially unacceptable to continue believing in them. This transition from a dangerous fool to confused charlatan was brought about by those of us who favor genuine advancement of knowledge, respect for the scientific method and prefer to challenge authority (the most patriotic thing you can do by the way) rather than follow like sheep.

  • Posted By: millirtime @ 12/07/2008 11:58:37 PM

    "It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." - Mother Teresa
    A baby and it's mother are two seperate human being with two unique souls. They share a relationship in which the child recieves nourishment and comfort from the mother. Human life is scientifically proven to begin at conception. If it's not a baby, you're not pregnant. Babies are not a mass of cells, tumors are. Tumors need to be treated, not pregnancies, which are normal, natural and healthy. There are no pregnancies by accident, even rape, though devestating, is not an accident and does not excuse killing the child. I know a young person who is the product of a rape and adoption, who is a good, succesful human being. Had he been aborted we never would have known his goodness. Read this article from "Confessions of an ex-abortionist: http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html

    • Posted By: cpmondello @ 12/08/2008 7:52:37 PM

      Did you miss MTs diary where she stated she didnt believe in a god?

      • Posted By: JackAramove @ 12/10/2008 3:58:27 PM

        After seeing the filth in which people live in and to see the horrible conditions they are living with, MT certainly had a few questions about god and whether God gave a rats a-- about the wretched human species. Its easy to believe. Anybody blind enough not to see the truth in front of them can believe in anything they want. Its sad that most of the conflicts in the world today has some religious element ot it, whether it is muslim-hindu, muslim-christian or evangelical-educated clash.

  • Posted By: doctor871 @ 12/07/2008 6:21:31 PM

    This article is so riduculessly slanted I can't believe anyone takes it serious. I don't hear pro-abortion people whining about misinformation when they are trying to prevent doctors from being required to present ALL INFORMATION INCLUDING INFO ON ADOPTION, instead of just abortion info. Hows that for informed consent.

    • Posted By: tutink777 @ 12/10/2008 10:46:12 AM

      It is not a docotrs place to talk about adoption as that is not a medical choice. A doctor is supposed to give you medical options and when pregnant there are two .. abortion or pregnancy and delivery. That is all a doctor is an expert about and all the information they should give (True information is best). Adoption is a legal amtter. Want to talk about adoption, go to a lawyer. By the way, I placed a child in a n adoption but it was not my dctors place to tell me about it.

  • Posted By: csberti @ 12/08/2008 12:20:42 AM

    I love how all Christians become the "evil" people in comment sections like this. Kill them all, the Christian Taliban, the enemies of essential liberties and wanting to strip away America's freedoms. I know several people who are pro life who aren't Christians. You don't have to believe in Jesus to believe that a baby in the womb is still a living being. And just because I believe killing an unborn child is equal to killing a born child or an adult and it should be illegal does not mean that I am trying to strip away America's freedoms. It always comes back to the slippery slope effect (oppose abortion, oppose firing a certain weapon). I could care less if people agree with my beliefs, if they want to drink or do drugs, if they want to love someone of the same gender or they want to stay home on Sunday to watch TV. I love the fact we can logically debate our differences in public or online, but want to kill me because I believe in freedom for all including the unborn child?

    • Posted By: tutink777 @ 12/10/2008 10:40:05 AM

      So you are against the death penalty, all wars, and for the restrictions of guns? Just checking.

  • Posted By: lloydaphelion @ 12/09/2008 4:46:40 AM

    LibertyBelle, abortion is not pain medication. It is, and I hate to say it, terminating a life. Now while you felt it appropriate, should a doctor who feels that to participate in an abortion would go against the very nature of their profession..y'know..preservation of life..Hippocrates' Oath...be ordered by the state to train for, cooperate with, and preform on demand abortions?

    • Posted By: tutink777 @ 12/10/2008 10:31:59 AM

      There are already laws in place to protect doctors who have objections to performing abortions. What Bush has done, is squeeze through (without fanfare or Congress's okay) new rules taht say doctors, pharmacists, any medical worker can refuse any type of procedure if it wiolates their moral conscience. So a racist doctor could probably try to not perform life saving surgery on an African-American. Does that seem like a good idea to you? Also, allowing pharmacists to reject giving birth control to patients whose doctors prescribed it is not only wrong, but takes away the doctors expertise and gives it to a pharmacist. I would not worry too much as miost of this would be ruled unconstitutional once it gets to the Supremem Court, especially that BS statement they are requiring be told to women seeking abortion. That is criminal to lie to a woman or girl who has alreadt had to make the toughest choice ever and has probably already become much more informated about abortion thatn she ever wanted to be.

  • Posted By: TheMorrigan @ 12/09/2008 9:31:46 PM

    This is not a theocracy, it's a democracy (actually we're a republic, but most of the people foaming at the mouth won't know the difference) and laws that have only religious validity have no place here. For those supporting this, go live in Iran where you can have a theocracy. This is simply the most poorly thought out, dangerous, and scary law ever to have been passed. Also this is not a "Christian nation", bojack. You should also know what you are talking about and I recommend you become familiar with the Treaty of Tripoli written by your beloved founding fathers.

  • Posted By: JW1950 @ 12/09/2008 8:47:58 PM

    Roe V.S. Wade was not about Abortion as so many people belive it is about the right to have medical privacy.

  • Posted By: Cates @ 12/08/2008 3:31:42 PM

    I question the patriotism of anyone that puts their religions beliefs before American values and the rights of their fellow Americans. If you want to live in a restrictive theistic state then move to Iran or Israel and keep your ugly gods out of our constitution.

    • Posted By: bojack27 @ 12/09/2008 4:44:46 PM

      You are lacking in knowledge... I suggest that you look at every state constitution which highlights the belief in God. Also know that even the Supreme Court rule that this is a Christian Nation.... If you want to be godless then by all mean be godless but at least know what you are talking about.....

  • Posted By: cpmondello @ 12/08/2008 7:45:17 PM

    Please support the following organizations to assure America does not become a theocracy, by keeping religion and politics separate, which will help end hatred, racism, oppression and stop the destruction of this great country Fundamentalist Christians have been trying to destroy !!!

    American Humanist Association - www.AmericanHumanist.org/

    American United for Separation of Church & State - http://www.au.org/

    Council for Secular Humanism - http://www.secularhumanism.org/

    Freedom From Religion Foundation - http://www.ffrf.org/

    Friends Committee on National Legislation - http://www.fcnl.org/

    Interfaith Alliance Foundation - http://www.interfaithalliance.org/

    Military Religious Freedom Foundation - http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/

    Secular Coalition For America - http://www.secular.org/

    Thank you in advance,
    Corey Mondello
    Boston, Massachusetts
    www.CoreyMondello.com

    • Posted By: bojack27 @ 12/09/2008 4:42:14 PM

      Our most important resource are are children in which you support destroying.... without them there is no America to fight for....

  • Posted By: beamen @ 12/08/2008 11:03:05 PM

    Would this also mean that a doctor or nurse could deny a woman care in regards to complications from an abortion?

    • Posted By: Kidpyramid @ 12/09/2008 2:07:27 AM

      No, The Hippocratic oath says to first, do no harm. If a person is in need of life-saving treatment a doctor may not say, "Sorry, but you brought this on yourself."

  • Posted By: Kidpyramid @ 12/09/2008 2:04:58 AM

    "Whether we like it or not, the right to birth control, emergency contraception and???under most circumstances???abortion is still constitutionally protected."
    There is one big flaw in this statement. A right is something we are born with. If you must ask permission then it is a privelege:
    You need a prescription for birth control/emergency contraception-privilege.
    You must ask a doctor to perform an abortion-privelege.
    The constituion guarantees to protect our rights to life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness, all rights we are born with. Abortion and contraception are not rights.

  • Posted By: Kidpyramid @ 12/09/2008 2:00:49 AM

    "Whether we like it or not, the right to birth control, emergency contraception and???under most circumstances???abortion is still constitutionally protected."
    There is one very big flaw in this statement. A right is something that one is born with and cannot be taken away. A privilege is something you need permission to do:
    You need a prescription for birth control and emergency contraception-a privilege
    You need to ask a doctor for an abortion-a privilege.
    Our constitution guarantees to protect our rights to life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness, all rights we are born with. Abortion and birth control are not rights.

  • Posted By: lloydaphelion @ 12/09/2008 12:41:21 AM

    I really appreciate her insight at the very end - being that doctors may very soon become obligated by law to preform abortions or facilitate them in any way, and against their deepest convictions..
    Lithwick can have her 'informed consent' laws if she wants..but know that there is a vast difference between having to look over and sign some paperwork and having to be involved with an abortion procedure. Whats so wrong with the notion of "right of conscience?" is it just too inconvenient?
    If you want to see a truly radical piece of legislature go read the last three sections of the 'Freedom of Choice Act' instead.

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