Gay Rights 2.0

FreeAsCanBe would like to pull the door closed behind her, so that others can be as FreeAsSheSeesFit.

It doesn't matter that your world view is based on your religious beliefs or that you profess to love everyone. You are asserting that there is only one way to live, and that is the definition of *fascism*.

In the whole of human history, there have never *not* been wars or a failing economy somewhere in the world, and it isn't the fault of science or a lack of a particular morality. In fact, modern history shows the overt Bible thumpers are the ones most likely to lead us into war.

It doesn't matter how many people you know that have rejected their inclinations and toed an arguable line. As long as there are others who wish to live their nature, you don't have the right (as an American) to keep them from it. They are the way God made them, as are you.

The only thing that affects you is what you choose to let affect you, and if you choose to be offended because a group of people refuse to be persecuted further then please understand: your grandchildren will feel the same way about you that I felt about my ???N-word??? spouting grandparents.

wired differently vs wired wrong. big difference. different is not abnormal/going against nature.

For the wired argument, maybe it is not that gay people are wired wrong; it may be that they are wired differently. And the only way to win over a majority who wants to oppress those who are different is to remain visible and to educate. Ignorance and intolerance are what emboldens people to brutalize.

Hmm. Good one rogerhall. There is also killing and murder in nature. Let's make that OK too!

What they demand is recognition for choosing hell . If a guy really has it for another guy then for God sake do not destroy his body. Be good to one another and help it each other get to light!

Just let them do their buttpounding and lipstick loving, who cares?

KittyKat, do you wear pants? Most women do. Should we make it illegal to wear pants? After all, they are men's clothing.

We practically insist on idols these days. In fact, one of the most popular shows on TV uses the word in its title. Our President told us to shop to beat the terrorists, and many of our "brands" are modern day idols, are they not?

Additionally, fornication, adultery, drunkenness, mixed-fiber clothing and shrimp are all perfectly legal. (Those last two are next to your Leviticus verse.)

While you did acknowledge our responsibility to love gays, you didn't post any verses on Love. In fact, since only 3000 characters are allowed per post, they wouldn't fit within a dozen posts; there are just too many.

Given that the Bible so completely admonishes us to love one another, and given that we don't make any of these other sins illegal, then shouldn't it be OK for gays to be included as equals in our society, even if you don't believe they will be treated that way in heaven?

BTW ??? most gay people don't feel trapped. Gays are born gay. If they choose to live a hetero-sexual lifestyle, they don't stop being gay (sexually oriented towards their own gender), they just stop following their natural inclination. Perhaps they can do that with the discipline that you offer, but most of them don't want to.

They just don't want to be persecuted anymore.

McClellan

I will respond in three posts rather than a reply because this site is performing poorly and I ran into a length limit. Please note that I am speaking for myself. I am not speaking for gay people. I am not speaking for all straight people who support civil liberties for all. If you attempt to extrapolate my answers into some sort of "gay agenda", then you will be wrong on at least two counts: I'm not gay, and I don't set an agenda.

Just to be clear: I am speaking for myself.

1. Personally, I would be open to additional liberties. In fact, the Bible and most of human history supports polygamy, and I believe in freedom for consenting adults.

Sibling relationships are a little stickier, but you should start with the understanding that siblings who grow up together are rarely interested in marrying each other. The only time this issue really comes up in our modern society is when siblings are separated at birth and later find each other as adults. It is called "Genetic Sexual Attraction" (although you should avoid reading too much into that phrase). It is very real, and usually very tragic. Still, we don't screen all prospective parents for genetic issues, and I'm not sure we should deny civil rights based on that issue anyway.

2. I believe this issue is usually overblown. Those who are gay-fearful tend to think that "children" will be taught sordid details, when in fact the only goal for "children" is to make the assertion that while most kids have one mom, one dad, or one mom and one dad, some kids have two dads, and some kids have two moms. The point of this assertion is that it is OK to treat someone with respect regardless of their background.

At the age that intercourse is taught (to "young adults", not "children"), then yes, all of human sexuality (as defined by consensual adult relationships) should be included. If your daughter isn't currently learning about the possible complications of anal sex, then she is being short-changed already.

3. I can't answer for the gay community, but let me ask this question in return: when being a "citizen" meant that you were white, should blacks have been satisfied by being named "freeman", or do you think they would really prefer to be completely included in a society of citizens?

McClellan

4. That's a tough question to answer, and our understanding of that is in rapid transition. Clearly, regardless of the answer, we must behave as if we have full responsibility for our actions, regardless of the reason we make them. Otherwise, we will absolutely slide into societal decay.

But to address the first part: people *are* born gay. I didn't grow up understanding that (and neither did my gay friend). We were both raised to believe that people "chose the gay lifestyle". It's just not so.

Ask yourself: when did you choose to be straight? What were the pros and cons you listed when working that decision out for yourself? Did you consider being gay for a few months, but then decided to "choose the straight lifestyle"? Of course not - you are straight because you were born that way.

Honest Answers to McClellan!!!!

1. Speaking on the basis of seperation of church and state alone, polygamy and incest is against the Bible. Not relevant!

2. Yes, safe sex should be taught in your daughter's school. She could be a lesbian, why not educate safe sex so she doesn't catch an STD!? Last time I checked homosexuals cannot reproduce.

3. Many gays are okay with a civil union, but why do you have to call it something else. Let me ask you something, are a member of an interracical couple? Probably not, and if you are you really wouldnt have any business preaching this way. Since you are probably not, what makes your heterosexual intraracial relationship worth more value than two men who love eachother, and want to make that commitment to eachother!

4. A lot of our behavior is biologically influenced yes! Nature vs. nurture! Can I ask you what highest level of education you have completed? Look it up!

5. Its NOT important to me or any gays for you to 'accept' them, but it is the government's responsbility to practice what they preach, which is a free country. Seperation of church and state rings a bell!

6. Next milestones? I dont know a gay president?

7. Your co-worker does not represent the entire gay community. Just like black criminals do not represent the whole black community. Your coworker may have some people skills to work on, but in the same token shouldnt be afraid of getting a job or not because an interviewer knows his orientation. Its the same concept of covering tatoos when you go into most job interviews. A lot of people dont like it and will judge you, where it at your own risk.

Anything else?

McClellan

5. I do not take offense at a Christian's interpretation. I take offense when that Christian persecutes others based on their interpretation. Interpret til judgement day; keep it out of my Constitution.

6. What have you been smoking? Since when have gays ever been a community or powerful? Seriously.

But in an attempt to take your question seriously: what point is there besides full citizenship? Reparations? Do you seriously think we will ever pay reparations to anyone?

7. It matters because it matters. When you are harassed for being gay, it matters. When you are ridiculed for being gay, it matters. When you are denied employment for being gay, it matters. When you are tied to a fence post or drug behind a pickup truck until you die, it matters.

It matters because some people continue to persecute gays.

I'll agree with you that it would be nice if we didn't have to worry about it, but that won't happen until people stop the persecution.

Ask American blacks why they are still twice as racist as American whites. Ask a lawyer why you cannot burn a cross on just anyone's yard. Hint: it's because it still matters.

I agree that your co-worker is begging for special ridicule, but perhaps he has a chip on his shoulder. Perhaps he wants everyone to understand that gay people contribute. Regardless of why, perhaps you can be empathetic to his desire to be accepted for who he *is*.

Thanks for your open questions. I hope my open responses help.

Roger

At the end of the day, what I do, say or participate in has nothing to do with how the world revolves or evolves...we all have to be responsible for OUR afterlife..I can not vouch for you, nor you for me..be concerned with saving your soul and let me save mines...it is so sad that even after the Holicoust, slavery, the Civil Rights movement, 9/11, the current war, the Titanic, etc..people are still concerned with the little things..most of these so called Christians would rather cut your head off than to embrace you as the human you are..people have more concern for animal rights than they do for the rights of other humans (gay/lesbian)..stop picking apart the Bible for your cause..their is only one interpretation on the Word..and no earthly human being can ever fully grasp that...live and let live and do right by the next HUMAN BEING!..that is what God truley wants...

Isn't it ironic to see so many so-called christians protesting how they're being stereotyped and unfairly painted with one big brush?

Yes, there are christians who good people and beleive equality and not trying to use their faith as a weapon to keep others down. I've met and known many of them.

Unfortuantely, I think they are a true minority or a silent majority in this country. Too often, extremists become the only voice or face of a group that they portend to represent. The "christians" who believe in exclusion and judgement are the ones have usurped the faith of Jesus Christ and have taken it in a direction that I am certain he would deplore.

If christianity was a political party, Jesus would be saying that he didn't leave the party; the party left him.

The Taliban and the terrorists of 9/11 came to represent Islam to many people in this country. The extremists of christianity have, unfortunately, come to represent the faith to many people.

HORRIBLE BASTARD !

He has said many untrue things.

Making up lies or assumption without evidence ---------- the weapon he uses.