Who Is To Blame?

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  • Posted By: Machiavelli999 @ 12/11/2008 7:26:30 PM

    Like all other Austrian economists, this guy sounds morally seductive. But there are no facts, no evidence and no basis for any of his claims. Austrian economists, by their own admission, do not use mathematical models or evidence to prove their theory. They claim that human behavior cannot be modeled by models, but even if I agreed that's true, it would make me even more skeptical that it can be "inferred" as the Austrians seem to do.

    All major economists like Milton Friedman and John Keynes have looked at the Austrian theory and have concluded there is no evidence or basis for what it says. Read Chapter 3 of the "General Theory" by Keynes and you will read the ultimate smack down to the Austrian school of thought. The thinking that we deserve our recessions and we must accept them is not only wrong, its dangerous. Recessions must be fought against.

    • Posted By: larsky @ 12/11/2008 8:24:25 PM

      "Recessions must be fought against." Holy Snikees, did you really say that. Say it again. Come on, come on, say it again. So in your Utopian dreams when the government and other elites finally have their way with the world and the unsavories in business, then recessions will be eliminated and we will live in that 'Brave New World" that you apparently wish to be in. WOW, I sure don't want you at my back in a bad situation unless it's a marshmallow fight. You know nothing of human nature.

    • Posted By: mfenwick @ 12/11/2008 8:11:31 PM

      Ludwig Von Mises in his book Human Action equated economic freedom with personal freedom. The more the government regulates the economy the more it will regulate us. At no time in history has there been a purely capitalistic society, not even in 19th-century America. The railroads, the Wal-Mart of their day, were heavily subsidized by our government to spread Manifest Destiny to the West. In the late 1800s there was a movement to do away with the gold standard and instead use silver in order to prevent recessions. Recessions in those days were a helluva lot worse than the ones we experience nowadays. But because there was no Federal Reserve, no income tax, and little government meddling in the economy everything bounced back quicker. Human actions, day-to-day free-market choices make a sound economy. Perpetual debt, advocated by the Keynesians, puts off the day of reckoning. I have books written 70 years ago by Austrian economists that warn about the dangers of a mixed economy and what would happen if nations followed Keynes' advice.

  • Posted By: debbieqd @ 12/11/2008 8:23:01 PM

    Ayn Rand was anti-everything, wasn't she? I've read Atlas Shrugged twice. Her protagonists, all of them, evolve as "perfect," high-minded, ethical human beings with the purest of motivations. But, this is real life people! Mr. Fuld of Lehman Brothers took my life savings without even an apology. AIG used my AAA bonds to party. Rand's capitalism has failed miserably -- because there is no accounting in it for human GREED. Who will control that?

    I think what is wrong with America is that we are entirely too subservient to and too dependent upon big business -- almost approaching fascism. Now, we find ourselves at their mercy. After all, "they are too big to be allowed to fail."

  • Posted By: larsky @ 12/11/2008 8:16:54 PM

    In the end whether socialism or capitalism, human nature rules the day. Given a choice I'll take the freedom and free market of capitalism over socialism any day as I just don't quite trust those fellows and gals in government necessarily looking our for my best interests. I'd rather rely on a good old capitalist baron. But then again if they want to send me welfare checks every week out of THEIR bank account, who am I to complain. Just stay away from my bank account, not that there is much there to hand out. Great comment by the fellow who remarked about how little the uninformed masses know about Barnie Frank and Chris Dodds' dirty hands in this whole meltdown affair. They are why I 'd prefer to be left out of the government caring/sharing machine.

    And this just in...

    The 20th century experimented with every possible variant of socialism. We had democratic socialism in Western Europe, totalitarian socialism in Eastern Europe, and fascist socialism in South America. We had atheistic socialism and we had "liberation theology." We had the "scientific socialism" of the Soviet central planners and the chaotic jungle socialism of the Khmer Rouge, who executed anyone with an education. We had "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and socialism with African characteristics and socialism with Hindu characteristics.

    We tried it all, and every time it led to poverty and oppression.

    Those results have been proven with scientific thoroughness. There is no excuse for trying it all again.

  • Posted By: wniddery @ 12/11/2008 8:04:38 PM

    So many have commented on Greenspan's "hands-off approach", but this is absurd on the face of it since his very position as Fed chairman means he was very hands-on by definition, even to the point of calling himself "Maestro of the economy". The day he accepted his position at the Fed it was clear he had rejected, no only Rand's philosophy of Objectivism, but his own previous writings that clearly came out against the existence of entities such as the Fed.

    Had he actually been an Objectivist, he would never have accepted that position, thus to attribute his actions as chairman to Rand or her philosophy is absurd. The flaw he claims to have discovered is not in Capitalism, free markets, or Objectivism, but in his apparent belief that, no matter what interference came from government, "self-interest" would somehow serve altruist goals and do the "right" thing for "society". In other words it's now clear his earlier association with Rand never cured him of collectivist, altruistic convictions.

  • Posted By: Harry123 @ 12/11/2008 8:03:10 PM

    This is not capitalism. It is credit-ism. Capitial is the outgrowth of savings. We don'g have savings, We keep borrowing and postpone payment: personal, state, and Federal. We run out of money here, so we borrowed from the foreigners. We piled up more debt than any time in the history of the world. Rand never advocated living on borrowed money. Greenspan always bailed out the Credit People with more money and lower rates. He is the worst central banker in history. Fred M. Starkey: This should be obvious.

  • Posted By: dlsimp @ 12/11/2008 7:55:28 PM

    Dr. Brook is right on the money............where no one can fail, no one can succeed.........as we head more into socialism kiss good bye to the great investions of the future, like present day cell phones, computer chips, cures for diseases, great works of music, etc..............because they will never be created because government will not let people be rewarded for creating them............let us be all equally shabby! Except of course, leaders that are marching us into socialism. Just ask Stalin and Mao........they weren't shabby........Thanks alot! From ds in San Diego

  • Posted By: larsky @ 12/11/2008 7:24:59 PM

    The 20th century experimented with every possible variant of socialism. We had democratic socialism in Western Europe, totalitarian socialism in Eastern Europe, and fascist socialism in South America. We had atheistic socialism and we had "liberation theology." We had the "scientific socialism" of the Soviet central planners and the chaotic jungle socialism of the Khmer Rouge, who executed anyone with an education. We had "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and socialism with African characteristics and socialism with Hindu characteristics.

    We tried it all, and every time it led to poverty and oppression.

    Those results have been proven with scientific thoroughness. There is no excuse for trying it all again.

  • Posted By: srjytrj @ 12/11/2008 7:21:31 PM

    Nonsense. Alan Greenspan stopped have anything to do with free market ideology or Ayn Rand long before he became the chairman of the fed. His policies were not free market and this problem was caused by government intervention in the economy. If Ayn Rand had been listened to this would not have happened.

  • Posted By: psykey @ 12/11/2008 10:53:24 AM

    I am pleased to see the perniciously stupid philosophy of objectivism so thoroughly discredited. It is nothing more than an apology for naturalism of the most amoral character. Capitalism, like communism has indeed failed. Workable, sustainable monetary and social systems will always involve elements of both systems in the context of an ethos and regulation in support of that ethos.

    • Posted By: skysi @ 12/11/2008 6:43:49 PM

      That's a nice smelly flow of meaningless verbal poo you inserted here. Eeh, who and how exactly discredited that philosophy, may I ask?

    • Posted By: Bill Smith @ 12/11/2008 10:57:38 AM

      Why do you support systems based on theft and murder?

  • Posted By: gator59 @ 12/11/2008 6:33:13 PM

    If this person does not see unregulated default swaps as a problem then I doubt that I could rely on his judgment about anything.

  • Posted By: cogitare @ 12/11/2008 6:26:19 PM

    It would be possible to dismiss the blaming of the present economic crisis on the "free market" if it was only the carelessly uninformed masses who were advocating for this scapegoat. When major media outlets feed into this puerile hysteria however, the only rational conclusion is that their publications are simply polemic defenses of socialist political theory.

    The present housing crisis is a distortion of the free market caused by the Bush administration's myopic and ideological meddling with the institutions providing mortgages to the public. In a free market, no bank has an incentive to make loans to people who cannot pay them back.

    It is the responsibility of "unbiased" media outlets to lay the blame where it is -- government intervention -- instead of encouraging more of the very behavior that caused this situation in the first place.

  • Posted By: dhirtz @ 12/11/2008 3:07:38 PM

    Government regulation is like a referee becoming involved in a boxing match. One guy is getting his ass kicked and the ref jumps in to help the loser win. His proper role is to make sure it is a fair fight according to objective rules. The stock market is like everyone in Vegas betting on the match. When the ref steps in to help the loser, every thing gets screwed up. Supply and demand is simple. Balance.

    • Posted By: docroc67 @ 12/11/2008 6:25:23 PM

      Supply and demand do not apply (or certainly not cleanly) in an economy dominated by giant businesses whose annual gross income are larger than some counties' budgets. S&D doesn't apply when corporations make things we do not need and then try to manipulate us to buy them. S&D don;t apply when futures markets determine the price of essential commodities and prices fluctuate in ways that are clearly NOT related to S&D.

      The central idea that free market cheerleaders can't seem to understand is that multinational megacorporations are not the same as nor bound by the same economics as your 19th-century small town. Microsoft is not the same as your great grand-dad's blacksmith shop. We no longer have anything remotely like a balanced ecology in the economic world, so expecting the economic world to reach some sort of happy equilibrium on its own is not reasonable and not born out by the last 100 year's history.

  • Posted By: The Sparrow @ 12/11/2008 11:35:43 AM

    Michael Shermer of Scientific American magazine makes a good argument for Rand being a cult leader, and for Objectivism, a cult.

    Frankly, I take Objectivism about as seriously as I take Scientology, which in some ways resembles Objectivism (i.e., its alleged use of "science" for what ultimately is an irrational purpose).

    See: http://www.spiralnature.com/phil/objectivism/unlikelycult.html

    • Posted By: skysi @ 12/11/2008 6:20:23 PM

      Unfortunately, Shermer doesn't have a clue. The guy takes Ayn Rand's simple and unique philosophy and tries to discredit it by creating elaborate and verbose deductions and inductions around it. It's easy to be a septic. You don't actually have to create anything. All you have to produce is verbal diarrhea :o)

  • Posted By: carminejd @ 12/11/2008 6:13:59 PM

    One could say, the two fundamental roles of government are 1. to enforce a rule of law, that is hold us all to our agreed upon contractual obligations that allow our economy to flourish and 2. to protect us all as a nation from sedition within and attack from abroad. An ancillary role is to operate as a promoter of individual liberty via education, highways, bridges etc. for the sake of the benefit of the general economy. The better each is at producing value the stronger the nation is as a whole. Your smart kid, your highways, reduces prices I pay for products I want, and his smarts increases his income your highways increase your neighborhood income. We both win. So, if my taxes do not in some direct fashion support my own interests it is theft. Now, we can also give government the role of a special insurance provider, this is Rawls' view, when I fall into a hole the government will pull me out,and I am taxed to assure that safety. But just like any insurance I essentially pay in hopes of losing my money, but I also choose the policy I want. No wreck no pay off. But I also don't buy insurance unless I own a car.
    So did government keep those on Wall Street from cheating on their contracts??? From turning rubbish su-prime mortgages to AAA securities and bonds, no. Bad government allowed for theives to be rewarded. Thank you very much Barney Frank and Fanny and Freddie, and now GM, and Chrysler will scam us too. Thank you Obama and Bush together. Greenspan actually understood this in principle: Government oversight of one's agreements is not the same as government intrusion into one's business. In a nutshell the economic mechanism that devolved into the sub-prime crisis is a fault of too much bad government rather than too little government. More is NOT good, GOOD is good.

  • Posted By: bg1654 @ 12/11/2008 11:52:45 AM

    Bioshock was created with failed utopia/dystopia in mind. They could have chosen communism or any other ideal, but the game's story IMO was a man who had strong conviction in his belief system and brought it to fruition then attempted to sacrifice everything, including his belief system, to retain power.

    Yes a sequel has been confirmed, but I believe Levine will not be the writer for it, which may remove some of the intellectual creativeness from it.

    "everyman a king" is what America was founded on. What part of "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." do you not understand? A king would have no power over another king.

    Anytime your give authority to "someone smarter than you are" you give away your freedom and become a subject/slave. You throw away your self responsibility, most likely because you want someone to take care of you, instead of forging your own way. Doing so reduces you to nothing more than a child. The world isnt your mother and will not treat you nearly as kindly. "Every one a king" is the only way things will be fair for everyone, to succeed or fail on their own. Attempting to become a god is attempting to assert dominance on others, breaking the "every one a king" ideal.

    @Dausuul: Yes the federal reserve is partly responsible for our business cycle. What creates the boom/bust cycle is government intervention. Since govt intervention preceeds the fed reserve it is not responsible in whole, but is merely another incarnation of it. You want scientific evidence for Objectivism, but fail to see the need for scientific verification that the boom/bust cycle was simply always there? You say you "grew up" and realized the world was a bit "more complicated" than Ayn Rand makes it out to be? Perhaps it is simply too complicated for you. For someone who seems to like science so much you have no problem making conclusions when (population) n=1.

    Greenspan was certainly NOT hands-off. Greenspan/Fed Reserve price rigs the dollar by setting the interest rates. The lower the rate the "cheaper" the money. Greenspan set the rate at a 50-year record low of 1% for a very long time, which caused a lot of borrowing and spending. For those that dont know Fractional reserve banking is allowed by govt law to lend out 10times the money they have from depositors and other assets. Once lent out these banks can claim this debts as assets and lend out even more money thereby increasing the money supply. Easy money = easy spending = boom. Excessive debt/no savings = bust. Govt intervention = boom/bust cycle.

    Now banks are failing because of retarded business decision... er wait, I mean they are being bailed out. Awesome... more govt intervention to solve the problem that govt intervention caused. Where do y

    • Posted By: Dausuul @ 12/11/2008 2:54:55 PM

      "Yes the federal reserve is partly responsible for our business cycle. What creates the boom/bust cycle is government intervention. Since govt intervention preceeds the fed reserve it is not responsible in whole, but is merely another incarnation of it."

      What is your factual basis for this claim?

      "You want scientific evidence for Objectivism, but fail to see the need for scientific verification that the boom/bust cycle was simply always there?"

      Evidence that the boom/bust cycle was there before the Fed? Pick up a history book, or just do a search on Google. See in particular the Panic of 1797, the Panic of 1817, the Panic of 1837, the Panic of 1857 (for a while there they came like clockwork every 20 years), the Long Depression of 1873 to 1896, and the Panic of 1907. Unless you wish to claim that these events are all fabrications of a conspiracy of historians, that's my evidence. Still waiting for you to provide evidence of... well, anything.

      • Posted By: skysi @ 12/11/2008 6:10:09 PM

        Dausuuul, if you want scientific evidence, stop reading the liberal bull history. Read the Austrian School economists: Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich von Heyek, Murray N. Rothbard. Even Milton Friedman would be fine. Then come back here

    • Posted By: bg1654 @ 12/11/2008 12:16:29 PM

      Last Sentenc should read:

      Where do you think it will lead?

  • Posted By: Rolandmc @ 12/11/2008 6:06:46 PM

    Excellent questions to an excellent interviewee. Brook argued a side I normally never get to hear and he made some great points! This is the type of diversity of view that we need to hear more often, the general public would be much better informed.

    My thanks to both Newsweek and Dr. Brook.

  • Posted By: thoughts1 @ 12/11/2008 12:18:58 PM

    I believe you can't pinpoint the blame on one person. I think the main cause was greed acted on by numerous people.
    Many took advantage of economic policies for the purpose of self increased wealth. This can not be pinpointed on any one individual but on many at different aspects. Two small examples: 1) Mortgage originators closing mortgages that people could not afford for the life of the loan. 2) Purchasers who took out loans they could not afford based on hopes of either later increased income, flipping the property before rates adjust or refinancing before rates adjust. There are many other examples. Outlandish bonuses....many times over Senior Execs may find a way to save the company money and have big layoffs and then take a big bonus for their 'helping' the company....(perhaps they could've foregone the bonus and kept a few more employees employed and their families with income...) Many other examples ....greed, greed, greed.
    Many who point at specific people may be looking to point the finger away from themselves and say 'I had nothing to do with it.. it's his/her fault.
    With respect to Barrett Sheridan's article, Greenspan is not to blame. Many took advantage of the economic policies and scenario to earn a quick dollar and neglected concern about the future and others. This is how I see it... some may agree, some may disagree.

    • Posted By: skysi @ 12/11/2008 6:05:16 PM

      Yes, that's how you see it. You see the way things happen in a regulated financial market. Regulations put many people and businesses in a disadvantaged position. To survive those people and groups have to something..

  • Posted By: Jinjymd @ 12/11/2008 5:49:03 PM

    If anyone wants a short work that will help perspective on this subject and possibly blow your mind: "The Law", by Frederic Bastiat, written in 1850 in France, it reads today as if it were written for us. His logic is compelling.

    • Posted By: Jinjymd @ 12/11/2008 6:01:25 PM

      Full text is available free on the internet, just google it.

  • Posted By: dougfromeagan @ 12/11/2008 5:58:02 PM

    The real truth about how we got to this financial mess is not being reported by the liberal mainstreet media. Certainly not by Newsweek. If you doubt me, ask your self if Newsweek has ever linked Barney Frank or Chris Dodds to this mess? What! you say? You are not iformed by Newsweek or other big publications or by big television AT ALL! Here is another person for you to Google. John Maynard Keynes. Barney Frank said "Keynsinism" was our way out of this mess. One last person to Google. Milton Friedman. - Ta Ta, my ignorant friends.

  • Posted By: Class of 58 @ 12/11/2008 5:48:33 PM

    Economic theories and "schools" are only as good as the moral fiber of their subscribers. Capitalism, tempered by ethics, is a great system! It fails when it is manipulated by liars, cheats and thieves, and that's what our Congress is all about lately.

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