Breaking The Will

How waterboarding got the green light from Bush.

By Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball | Newsweek Web Exclusive
Dec 11, 2008

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  • Posted By: janeyre @ 04/25/2009 12:55:45 PM

    Two Draft Dodgers... Bush and Cheney, are you surprised? Both are criminals and should be held accountable for their crimes. How many have died in Iraq?

  • Posted By: johnmsahady @ 04/22/2009 12:38:11 PM

    Clinton was put through the ringer for his private indiscretions. Why is it that George W. Bush, the torture authorizing commander-in-chief, is not being mentioned for prosecution? The employment of American torture and humiliation techniques makes us hypocrites in the eyes of the world. It encourages the torture of captured American soldiers. It enrages our enemies and increases the chances that they will plan and execute more attacks. We have always known where Osama is. We should have taken the fight straight to him instead of playing dark, back-room games with helpless captives. When we had him stuck in Tora Bora, we stopped the bombing and let him escape. Instead of following him to Pakistan, we made war in Iraq and lost more Americans than Osama killed. In order to restore our nation to the status it deserves as the world's greatest, Bush should be behind bars.

  • Posted By: Jack999 @ 04/22/2009 6:34:23 AM

    So you want us to become terrorists in order to defeat terrorism? Sorry, but we either survive upon our principles or we fail as a nation upon our principles, you seem to be all to willing to sacrifice your principles and the Constitution and everything this nation was founded upon in order to save your life, and that my dear is just disgusting.

    If your way of life is not worth dying for then it most certainly is not worth killing for. You just seem to think we need to kill our way of life to save our lives. I'm sorry, but I will not sell my soul to save my ***. You may be comfortable with Nazi-esque philosophies and ethics, but some of us still remember why America is a great nation. And for our sakes stop trying to flush it down the toilet.

  • Posted By: GoodIntentions @ 01/02/2009 5:50:27 AM

    I am sick, tired and ashamed of candy tailed left wing liberals always coming to the rescue of the bad guys. There are two certain things on this Earth: good and evil. Whatever has to be done to condemn and dominate the evil-minded, so be it as far as I am concerned. These souless, and I say that because they do not own their souls, terrorists are practically inanimate objebts to me. Whatever happens to them, they deserve. I have brothers and sisters in Christ in Iraq and other parts of the world. That my goverment tried to come to their rescue makes me proud. They do not deserve to be subjected to some of the horrors they have experienced. Sometimes I think that certain Americans are only opposed to some issues in order to make their own sins seem less relevant. We are a society that owes a great deal of introspection to the fact that we all need to be far more accountable for our own sins and less quick to provide shame and excuses for means that aim to battle pure evil. I am not saying, " An eye for an eye", I am simply pointing out that while terrorists may take on human form, they are certainly purely evil.

    • Posted By: Jack999 @ 04/22/2009 6:32:03 AM

      So you want us to become terrorists in order to defeat terrorism? Sorry, but we either survive upon our principles or we fail as a nation upon our principles, you seem to be all to willing to sacrifice your principles and the Constitution and everything this nation was founded upon in order to save your life, and that my dear is just disgusting.

      If your way of life is not worth dying for then it most certainly is not worth killing for. You just seem to think we need to kill our way of life to save our lives. I'm sorry, but I will not sell my soul to save my ***. You may be comfortable with Nazi-esque philosophies and ethics, but some of us still remember why America is a great nation. And for our sakes stop trying to flush it down the toilet.

    • Posted By: QuarterCenturyVet @ 01/16/2009 3:03:23 AM

      Dear GoodIntentions When GOOD people employ EVIL such as torture, killing innocents or "whatever it takes to get the job done" they become the EVIL Guys ie: the terorists. I seem to have learned in church that the Road to Hell is paved with GoodIntentions. Which way are you headed?

  • Posted By: SSG Nastov @ 02/26/2009 4:58:35 PM

    Torture works...period. It's called WAR, not "patty-cake"
    97Delta20 Interrogator Desert Storm trooper

    • Posted By: Jack999 @ 04/22/2009 6:29:37 AM

      So you want us to become terrorists in order to defeat terrorism? Sorry, but we either survive upon our principles or we fail as a nation upon our principles, you seem to be all to willing to sacrifice your principles and the Constitution and everything this nation was founded upon in order to save your life, and that my dear is just disgusting.

      If your way of life is not worth dying for then it most certainly is not worth killing for. You just seem to think we need to kill our way of life to save our lives. I'm sorry, but I will not sell my soul to save my ***. You may be comfortable with Nazi-esque philosophies and ethics, but some of us still remember why America is a great nation. And for our sakes stop trying to flush it down the toilet.

      What are the United States Consituitions and Geneva Convention for? Why must the International Court had to convicys and hang many German and Japanese War prisoner for?

    • Posted By: sdeaglesfb @ 03/12/2009 11:35:03 PM

      hmmm.... and we wonder why these people hate us so much

    • Posted By: sdeaglesfb @ 03/12/2009 11:31:55 PM

      hmm...and we wonder why these people hate us...

  • Posted By: C. MacLean @ 12/12/2008 12:51:06 PM

    "...the abuses at Abu Ghraib in Iraq were not, as administration officials initially contended, the result of a "few bad apples" but in fact the result of deliberate administration policy. But there is still a host of outstanding questions about that policy and how it was created."

    There are no questions - it was created by evil, cowardly men for political reasons. Period.

    There is no excuse for torturing people. Ever.

    The argument that torturing one person to potentially save the lives of many is ridiculously flawed, particularly when you are torturing an innocent person. It is a known fact that the "intelligence" retrieved when you torture is worthless - no less an expert on torture than John McCain recalls in his biography that in order to stop the torture from the North Viet Namese he gave them names: of the Minnesota Viking Front Four.

    Why ban torture? (1) it doesn't work. (2) we get unreliable information. (3) it invites torture of our prisoners of war. (4) in a panic, the accused will blurt out the names of innocent people to save himself, causing more torture of innocents.

    and (5) IT IS MORALLY WRONG.

    Impeach Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzalez for war crimes. Most likely Tenet, too. They are evil and cowardly and deserve to be held accountable.

    • Posted By: Vladimir Enlow @ 04/22/2009 1:08:56 AM

      Nothing more need be said.

    • Posted By: schneider115tr @ 01/21/2009 12:59:13 PM

      You've got it right on all counts.

  • Posted By: HoustonTeacher @ 02/14/2009 11:09:13 AM

    GeeTee siad , We are telling the world to go ahead and torture our sons and daughters --- fair is fair, right?
    What is the name of the prision the terrorists hold their captives in? Our soldiers and citizens if captured are drug from the back of cars or have their heads cutoff with a butcherknife while the goons video tape it for broadcast., you imbecile.
    They hope to win the war by counting on chichen shi__ to proclaim we must defend our nation from those who have attacked us because its "an invasion" of their peaceful land. Shitup, BeeGee until until you find a brain. Or run for office in the democratic party like the rest of our nation's imbeciles. HoustonTeacher

    • Posted By: Desert Runner @ 02/25/2009 8:58:09 PM

      God forbid that you are a real teacher as you abviouslly have a deficiency in understanding or making an argument with out turning to 4th grade name calling. The issue here is moral standing and effectivness in acheiving a purpose (in this case information gathering). I find the actions you descrive (beheadings and dragging in the street) abhorent. But not justification to sink to their sick level. What is it you want? to win? or to waste your time w the fleting emotion of revenge?

      • Posted By: ******* @ 02/27/2009 2:55:12 PM

        Censorship works. Unfortunately it worked to well here in the U.S., It was mostly intended for children, now most Americans have a childish mentality towards everything, especially world events. Technology made his world a small place and there are a lot of bad people in it, and not rated R movie bad, but a lot worse. Our teams are top notch highly educated professionals not 18 year old grunts; they have an extensive military background that supports their actions. It???s not revenge; it???s not hate, its proven action with results. It???s not in your child???s history books. Reading about it wouldn???t make you understand anyway. Wars are not fought by dueling gentlemen who follow rules, they never have been. Quit interfering and allow the professionals to do their work.

  • Posted By: sallyjane @ 01/07/2009 8:03:08 AM

    Let's see...we throw water om them and we're the bad guys.They cut off heads and a party is thrown, ummmmm? something is wrong with this picture.

    • Posted By: QuarterCenturyVet @ 01/16/2009 2:51:53 AM

      sallyjane anyone who would liken waterboarding to throwing water on them would also equate RAPE with an act of LOVE

      • Posted By: MaurerPower @ 02/18/2009 6:17:24 AM

        I somehow doubt they think it's simply throing water on them. I imagine the grammar was chosen to illustrate that a 'faux' drowning exercise, while aggressive, is still something I would prefer to have done to me as opposed to having my head slowly chopped off. Watch any of the Al Jazeera beheadings, and I'd imagine you opinion would change quite fast on whether waterboarding as really THAT evil. Remember, noone dies or has their head 'accidentally' fall off...

  • Posted By: GeeTee @ 02/13/2009 1:16:17 AM

    As an American citizen, I believe that the old "shoe on the other foot test" is most appropriate in determining whether or not one should promote willful blindness of well settled standards of conduct as if America, the invaders of foreign nations, are the targets of terrorists.
    In other words, look at it this way... if a jack-booted invader kicks in your door (in hometown USA) and performs an illegal search of your home??? or worse yet, rapes your children or starts shooting members of your family at random... would you be inclined to offer a meal to the invader or blow their brains out of their head in defense of your home?
    Now let???s put the shoe on the other foot... what if you are the one kicking in the door of a family in a foreign land? Would you be expecting a steak and a generous offer of some 'freedom' fries? No? How surprising, huh?
    Well, same goes for torture... Bush and his minions knew they were VIOLATING international standards that the USA instituted for the same reasons many Americans are trying to justify with their arrogant ignorance... why not tell the world that the same applies to our fighting boys??? go ahead torture our sons and daughters--fair is fair, right?
    Instead, it is our duty as Americans to make those criminals (at home) own up for their crimes... and my bet is that the hysterical hubbub of terrorism will disappear and the world will welcome the return of the USA back to a nation of integrity in the eyes of the world.

  • Posted By: GeeTee @ 02/13/2009 1:15:59 AM

    As an American citizen, I believe that the old "shoe on the other foot test" is most appropriate in determining whether or not one should promote willful blindness of well settled standards of conduct as if America, the invaders of foreign nations, are the targets of terrorists.
    In other words, look at it this way... if a jack-booted invader kicks in your door (in hometown USA) and performs an illegal search of your home??? or worse yet, rapes your children or starts shooting members of your family at random... would you be inclined to offer a meal to the invader or blow their brains out of their head in defense of your home?
    Now let???s put the shoe on the other foot... what if you are the one kicking in the door of a family in a foreign land? Would you be expecting a steak and a generous offer of some 'freedom' fries? No? How surprising, huh?
    Well, same goes for torture... Bush and his minions knew they were VIOLATING international standards that the USA instituted for the same reasons many Americans are trying to justify with their arrogant ignorance... why not tell the world that the same applies to our fighting boys??? go ahead torture our sons and daughters--fair is fair, right?
    Instead, it is our duty as Americans to make those criminals (at home) own up for their crimes... and my bet is that the hysterical hubbub of terrorism will disappear and the world will welcome the return of the USA back to a nation of integrity in the eyes of the world.

  • Posted By: NJSPTeacher @ 02/08/2009 9:03:37 AM

    Although I personally don't believe that we should violate either the spirit or the letter of the convention Let's face facts, this is all in all a war. Our civilian laws and constitution should not apply when determining treatment of detainees. These are not civilian offenses. It is time for people to wake up and realize that the ACLU and Hollywood have given us students without discipline, the romanticizing of crime, more rights to criminals than to ordinary citizens and an extreme sense of entitlement to almost all aspects of American Society. That is why you have clothing for little girls that looks like hooker outfits, criminals with HBO and songs that contain words of hatred toward Police and authority.

  • Posted By: Trooper101st @ 01/29/2009 8:55:41 AM

    Sometimes you have to use "extraordinary" measures to crack a hard nut. Thing is, is the intel true, or will he tell you ANYTHING you want to hear? Different people, different methods. Personally, I think they should put all those psycho-moslems on a boat from GITMO and use it for target practice.

  • Posted By: ynottac @ 01/24/2009 4:46:07 PM

    I am a 38 year old black man and small business owner. I have to say I am thankful that President Bush kept this country safe after 9/11. He made some mistakes but he did many positive things. I believe that terrorist want to kill as many people as they can, male, female and children. The government, when dealing with enemy combatants, should use whatever means necessary to extract vital information that will hopefully keep me and my family safe.

  • Posted By: mikewadestr @ 12/11/2008 11:02:50 PM

    If waterboarding was so successful, then why are we still fighting 2 wars that have no end. What this charade has done is reduced the greatest army on earth down to a bunch of perverted pansies. How anyone can be proud to serve the US armed forces today is beyond me.

    • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 12:01:16 AM

      You act as if we have water boarded thousands of people... we haven't. Water boarding was used only on three Al Qaeda terrorists, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Mohammed not only confessed to orchestrating the 9/11 attacks, but also on-going terror plots against the United States. At his hearing, he also admitted to the brutal murder/beheading of journalist Danial Pearl.

      Though we no longer use the practice of water boarding, don't think for a second that it will have any effect on how terrorists treat their captives.

      • Posted By: DoctorLady @ 12/12/2008 8:04:54 AM

        Actually, the tragic truth is that American citizens have waterboarded thousands of people and outsourced the torture of thousands more through rendition. That is the problem. President Bush broke the law and ordered others to break American law. The experts in the military told him that it would NOT provide actionable intelligence, but it would break the men psychologically. Don't forget that thousands of the men tortured were not terrorists and have since been released. There were many reports of people falsely claiming a neighbor was a terrorist because of the reward money or old grudges, and there were cases of mistaken identity. President Bush did not support our troops and he did not respect our troops. If President Bush trusted our troops, then he wouldn't have approved torture. Bush blamed the NCOs and junior enlisted who carried out his directives instead of taking responsiblilty for his failed and illegal policies. The vast majority of our military personnel are honorable and against torture, but the President's actions (and those of a few bad apples following his policies) have brought shame to our otherwise noble service.

        We should have used carrots instead of sticks because carrots work and sticks don't. The FBI and US Army proved this years ago. That is why torture is illegal.

        • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 8:25:09 AM

          Do you have a non-biased, credible link for your information on the thousands of people we water boarded?

          Carrots? To terrorists? Lol!!! Why do you run on so? If you'd do a little research, you would see water boarding is no longer used by our military.

          • Posted By: Diva433 @ 12/12/2008 10:52:45 AM

            Do you madam? Other than this article, of course. pleas post them, so that I may read over them and prepare another comment.

            • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 2:56:27 PM

              "On September 6, 2006, the U.S. Department of Defense released a revised Army Field Manual entitled Human Intelligence Collector Operations that prohibits the use of waterboarding by U.S. military personnel."

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

              • Posted By: schneider115tr @ 01/21/2009 1:29:09 PM

                So?? You can post all the regulations you want, but if they're meant to be ignored, they they're meaningless windowdressing.

              • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 12/12/2008 3:36:50 PM

                That doe snot change the fact that we DID engage in said torture in the past as part of GITMO. The US lost its standing in the nations of the world because of it and the Bush admin IS legally responsible for our people using it.

                SAying that it was done in the past as an excuse is like saying, well he murdered her ten years ago so we should not hold hiim repsonsbiel Garbage logic.

                • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 4:08:26 PM

                  Are you from here? Obviously not... you're from that country that's never made any mistakes.

                  We're just as guilty for not doing it as we are for doing it. Great logic on your part!

                  • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 12/12/2008 4:56:47 PM

                    I am a third generation native born US citizen.

                    I never said that we do nto make mistakes. Waht I have been saying all along is that the Bush Admin engaged in crimnal conduct becuase, as the report showed, they authorized the use of torture. It does not matter whether some advisers said it worked or not. It does nto oamtter that it was not offically illegal in US military manuals until 2006. Simple common sense and a kowledge of history would have shown morla leaders taht it was torture and wrong. It is one thing to make a mistake and admit it and apoligze for it. But Bush, Cheney and crew (who are ostly stillin power) have made excuses, not mea culpas. THAT is the issue.

                    And my perspectinve on this is strengthened by knowing dozens of current and former high ranking military personalle, ALL of whom opposed (and some opposed at the time) the use of waterboarding. Some of them are experts in the field and have said that torture is never the most effective means of gathering info even in tight time constraints.

                    We should never have done it. That is the issue. If you could read intelligently you would understand that.

                    • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 5:13:51 PM

                      And I never said I condoned torture. You have to remember that what you and I think, and what Bush should and shouldn't have done isn't the issue. Did he break any laws or violate the Geneva Convention? I've read the GC, and I could have missed it, but havn't seen the term 'terrorist' anywhere. Some experts will disagree with you regarding the effectiveness of waterboarding. In the end, stated facts doesn't mean one agrees with any given issue.

                      By the way, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I can't read intelligently.

                      • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 12/13/2008 8:38:54 AM

                        Well, as I said before, there are many interenational law experts (and several military law experts as well) who disagree that the Geneva Convention is not applicable to terrorists. As I pointed out, the very definition of war has changed so those who are defined as "enemy combatants" ARE apparently covered by the GC.

                        My point about being able to read is that all you say is that we have stopped doing it. That does not excuse the US from doing something illegal in the first place.

                        I have no problem with the argument that you might, (mistakenly) think that waterboarding was EVER a legal option in recent years, but when you use the excuse that it is now prohibtted as some sort fo excuse for actions that were clearly against international law when they were sone, THAT is when I challenge your intellect.

              • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:01:44 PM

                That's nice. It says nothing about CIA personnel, or extraordinary rendition.

          • Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 10:30:16 AM

            The only facts you have is what the RNC has told you. Gee, what a credibile reference to reality that is these days.

            • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 2:59:44 PM

              Yash, see the above link.

        • Posted By: cflare @ 12/12/2008 12:21:18 PM

          The burden of proof is on DoctorLady.
          She's made several claims that aren't even supported by the OP.

          Besides, an earlier comment by DL says that the use of torture wasn't a few 'bad soldiers' but was practiced by ALL American TROOPS. Therefore this is in stark contradiction with this post.

          Either all American soldiers willfully participated, or Bush forced a minority of the soldiers to torture.

          Also, the military is split on its use. It's hard to be all against torture when you just saw your friend beheaded on national television with a dull knife.

          Also, it'll be better if you get a little dirty and get this over with, than extended it for 100s of years because you tie soldiers up with a bunch of laws.

          If you were truly utiliarian, you'd agree that small enemy collateral over a few years is better than large global civilian collateral over decades. If your Christian, God approved wiping out whole societies that had gotten so evil with child molestation, etc. We're talking about a country that killed half its civilians and buried them in a pit, and a terrorist organization that flew planes into civilian buildings and blows up hotels as it's strategy.

          How many more innocent civilians must die before you decide to wipe these abominations off the face of the earth.

          You've been protected by your "American media"; how about you travel around the world and look at africa, where they're kiling the adults and taking the children to brainwash as little human bombs. How about you travel to India, Pakistan, Afganistan, Iraq, Isreal, etc. were car-bombs are a part of daily life.

          No, you safely drive to your jobs, drink your little wine at fancy restaurants, and live your little smug American lives, while the rest of the world rots in hell... then complain when your government has the guts to ignore BSPC and stop chopping some heads off.

          Well, live in your little wonderland my American friends, because one day all the hell around the world will eventually reach your shores, and you'll finally realise the stench that you've closed your nose to.

          • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 12:39:58 PM

            "Also, it'll be better if you get a little dirty and get this over with, than extended it for 100s of years because you tie soldiers up with a bunch of laws."

            Oh, quite. Far better to have them act like barbarians.

            • Posted By: cflare @ 12/12/2008 12:57:45 PM

              I'm not talking about acting like barbarians.
              I'm talking about how every bullet now has a war-crime attached to it. As if our soliders can't fire a gun at all without facing court martial.

              Quite nice of you to straw man one small portion of my argument and neglect the whole.

              My argument is about reality. Because most people never leave the states, they have no idea about the state of the world. They have no clue how much collateral damage these terrorists are causing just to kill a handful of Americans. If anyone at all paid attention to India, the terrorists weren't there to kill Indians. They killed almost 1000s of people while trying to kill a few Americans and some Jews.

              Like I said, I'm seriously praying that they do a similar attack on China ground. Not saying I want Chinese to die, because I love the Chinese to death (awesome hospitality), but I'd like to see China get drawn into the war on terror, because their military isn't tied with so many politically correct laws.

              Yes, I do agree some restrictions should be placed on soldiers to protect innocents. However, far too many soldiers die because they can't fire a bullet due to this and that. It's a shame when soldiers can't defend themselves in war.

              Yes, I don't agree with torture. However, I see no fault with some methods we have used before, as long as the captives recieve every degree of medical attention they need. For example, growling dogs.... comon.... please. Hoods over heads, seriously. Water down a throat, HELL NO. Like anyone can believe water down the lungs simulating drowning won't have some permanent lung damage. I've taken basic CPR and I know that's a lie.

              • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 1:27:29 PM

                "I'm talking about how every bullet now has a war-crime attached to it. "

                Ridiculous. Hyperbole does not help your argument.

      • Posted By: cflare @ 12/12/2008 12:06:01 PM

        Since when did we ever sign an agreement that applied to terrorists. Last time I check, the Geneva convention was between countries. Since Al Quaida doesn't align itself with a nation, suicide bombs, cuts our CIVILIANS heads off with a dull knife over the course of an hour, is hated by all of the civiians in the middle east, FLEW PLANES into our buildings, and tried to take out the white house..... Since when did the Geneva convention ever apply to them.

        If they can recover to the equivalent health condition as before, then the torture didn't do permenant damage, then I'm ok with that kind of torture.

        I'm going to prophecize that as soon as Obama works out all his military cuts, intelligence cuts, and pulls soldiers out of the middle east, we're going to be hit with another devestating attack like 9/11. Then people will get pissed off again, reunite, and do something other than cry like pansies over the torture of three people that gave us critical info on upcoming attacks.

        Did you people even notice that because we were able to stop an attack on New York, they had to kill our citizens in India with MASSIVE MASSIVE collateral damage.

        I just can't wait until they do the same thing to vacationers in China. Yeah, go blow up a few Chinese hotels... When that happens, we'll still be crying about pulling soldiers out while China does the job for us in a matter of 2 years, because they don't have hippies in China.

        Then there won't be no cries for multilateral support.

        • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 12:38:59 PM

          "Since when did we ever sign an agreement that applied to terrorists. Last time I check, the Geneva convention was between countries. "

          Then you didn't check at all. Re-read articles 4 & 5.

          • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 2:51:05 PM

            Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see the word 'terrorist" anywhere.

            • Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 3:03:12 PM

              That would be called premeditated ignorance. It's a repub thing.

              • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:00:37 PM

                Apparently, Shanshayla doesn't understand that terrorists fall under both "insurgent" and "unmarked forces" by very definition. All terrorists are insurgents, but not all insurgents are terrorists. It's a nuance that I fear is over the head of the average Hannity fan.

                • Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/13/2008 12:19:12 PM

                  He does understand he just lives with premeditated ignorance. You can't fix a$$hole.

            • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 3:57:49 PM

              Your inability to read and understand plain English is not my problem.

      • Posted By: ladybastet @ 12/12/2008 3:42:49 AM

        Proclaimed like a true neocon! God help you people! You make me sick!!!

        • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 8:56:23 AM

          Stop reading something into my post that isn't there. I didn't say I condoned the practice... I stated a few facts, and yes, they were facts, including the fact that we no longer use water boarding. (and show me a credible source where we have water boarded 'thousands") Then you call me a neocon and say I make you sick?

          It's funny, no comment from you about the terrorist I mentioned that sawed off an innocent man's head while being video taped, and orchestrated the deaths of 3000 people on 9/11. Nary a peep. I guess that means I can read into YOUR post that you condone that practice? Of course not.

          Put on your glasses and use your head before you make ignorant, assumptive statements.

          • Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 11:12:25 AM

            Actually ladybastet's post is more accurate than any of your fact-based propaganda posts.

            • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 3:02:31 PM

              Only in your liberal, apologist mind.

              • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:02:23 PM

                Which is better than no mind at all, which is the appearance your posts give.

          • Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/12/2008 10:39:41 AM

            We're already going after those terrorists in Afghanistan with extreme prejudice. What more can we do? Are you angry that we don't want to hurt them in retribution and revenge as you do, even though we recognize that we need to defend ourselves and root out the Taliban and al-Qaeda?

            don't support torture in that conflict either - notice I said "that conflict", as neither group existed in Iraq prior to our going in there. By now, however, it's becoming more of a big muddle.

            I wouldn't believe too much of the hype about what we do or don't do anymore - an attempt at joining the military showed me just how many cover-ups there are in those organizations. Remember, the information about Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo was not reported by the Bush administration voluntarily. Regardless of waterboarding, in the larger debate on torture, I can still guarantee you that the conditions at Guantanamo constitute inhuman and barbaric treatment on a number of levels. Innocent people are getting hepatitis, jaundice from the poor food, sick from the lack of sleep, slowly suffocated from exposure in those black hoods.

            I find no words to express the magnitude of the pain we've inflicted on many of these people, innocent or not. You ought to be satisfied with your pound of flesh at this point, yet you're more angry than ever.

      • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/12/2008 8:30:21 AM

        "You act as if we have water boarded thousands of people... we haven't. "

        If you do it even once under aegis of law, you have pretty much flushed American principles down the toilet.

        • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 9:17:31 AM

          By your logic America is history, and therefore should cease to exist.

          Happy now?

          • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 12/12/2008 10:10:21 AM

            Actually that is not what was being said. The idea is that the US MUST acknowledge that what it did was illegal, and apologize and make sure that no one like Bush or Cheney is ever allowed to rise to power again.

            Personally I would argue that they (and their accomplices) should be arrested and handed over to the World Court for prosecution.

            • Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 11:11:01 AM

              Like a master manipulator Shanshayla doesn't like it when his words are twisted, but it's OK if he does it. Sounds like a republican, doesn't it?

          • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/12/2008 10:03:27 AM

            Well, our standing in the civilized world certainly is.

      • Posted By: ladybastet @ 12/12/2008 3:41:41 AM

        Proclaimed like a true neocon! You people make me sick!

  • Posted By: Ethel @ 12/12/2008 3:16:25 PM

    "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." - Bush is a monster, and, in becoming so, he destroyed the reputation of the greatest country the world had ever known.

    • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 3:28:11 PM

      Well Ms. Ethel.... if we get another 9/11, mean old Bush won't be there to defend you.

      We haven't been attacked since 9/11... over 8 years. Would you please tell me why that is? And please forgo the nonsensical "the terrorists haven't wanted to" rhetoric.

      • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 3:52:41 PM

        Bush didn't defend you on 911. What the hell are you talking about?

        • Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 3:58:23 PM

          Uhhhh.... it wasn't Clinton that went into Afghanistan... in fact we were being attacked on a regular basis during the Clinton years... then Bush finally did something about it after 9/11. Hence, no attacks in over 8 years.

          I know... you must have missed all that while napping!

          • Posted By: schneider115tr @ 01/21/2009 12:57:36 PM

            Bush was hiding under the bed on 9/11 - too cowardly to defend himself, much less anyone else.

      • Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/13/2008 12:08:35 PM

        "if we get another 9/11, mean old Bush won't be there to defend you."

        And the reason people voted democratic is to protext themselves from W and his criminals. How did you miss that?

  • Posted By: cutoffyournosetospiteyourface @ 12/23/2008 6:57:56 PM

    If these techniques were approved, why are the soldiers from Abu Grabib in prison? If Bush had any decency he would pardon all of them.

    • Posted By: QuarterCenturyVet @ 01/16/2009 3:05:26 AM

      Pardon them HELL he should take their place in prison

  • Posted By: QuarterCenturyVet @ 01/16/2009 2:47:04 AM

    Bringing in the children of those being interrogating and tearing them apart limb to limb starting with the oldest child and working to the youngest one wound also be very effective in getting the subject to answer questions. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the sick basterds who supporter them would likly support that if it got results but most of the world would hang them for it. The US hung Japanese who used waterboarding during WW2. Time to build The Bush/Cheney Memorial Gallows and let them be the first two who are tried and if convicted hang them high.

  • Posted By: solar008 @ 01/14/2009 3:46:05 PM

    General Karpinsky has been detailing her experience at Abu Graib for years. None of you seemed interested in following her leads.

  • Posted By: solar008 @ 01/14/2009 3:43:57 PM

    Ask General Janis Karpinski. She's been trying to tell her experience with the Rumsfeld machine for years, none of you seemed interested in following her leads..

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