"YES AS BAD AS THE USSR"
You must be very proud.
Breaking The Will
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:52:17 PM
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Posted By: bigjohnv @ 12/11/2008 9:45:31 PM
hey these so called dirt bags that kill hundreds and also the 9/11 attack on us and you people are worried about a little water down the pipe. come on now get real what do you want to give them a message to get them to open up their traps?
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Posted By: NJ-BJ @ 12/11/2008 10:21:31 PM
The problem is these are wrong techniques. The Chinese and North Korea designed these to force our soldiers to confess to anything. The soldiers you saw on TV back in the 1950's confessed to the US bombing children, etc. This technique is not designed to get the truth; something you need to find Bin Laden, but to get a person to admit anything you say, whether it is true or not.
Torture makes people say ANYTHING to get the pain to stop; regardless whether what they say is true or a lie. If you want a blanket confession use torture. If you want truth, use other methods.-
Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/11/2008 11:04:48 PM
And what methods would those be? Murdering terrorists don't respond to "asking them nicely."
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Posted By: karela @ 12/12/2008 1:57:10 AM
The top U.S. interrogator wrote a book about interrogation. He and his team had the best results of anyone doing interrogations of terrorist suspects. They never used torture. He says that it is the least effective way to get valuable information. Why do we always assume that the most brutal methods work best. They don't, and it's been proven.
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 9:22:16 AM
I don't condone the practice.. But I did ask a simple question... But I am wondering... if it's as useless as you claim it to be, why is torture still being used after hundreds of years?
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Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/12/2008 10:06:44 AM
"I don't condone the practice.."
Bullshit. You've spent the entire thread exclaiming that the only choices are torture and "having coffee with the terrorists".-
Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 10:34:17 AM
Yes Doc, he's full of it and everyone, including him, knows it, just as W knows he's just a RNC puppet dep down inside, though he would never show it publically.
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 3:18:57 PM
Stop being a liberal apologist long enough to someone else's view. You will twist anything and read anything into what you want so that it looks the way you want.
If anyone here is full of it, it's you and doc.-
Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:09:11 PM
"Stop being a liberal apologist long enough to someone else's view."
There is no profit in considering the views of barbarians.-
Posted By: Pocolodi @ 12/12/2008 4:21:10 PM
Okay.... you've made your comments it's horrible and you hate the practice. Why are you still here? Certainly it's not because you think I condone the practice. I don't. I have simply stated facts. You? You drone on and on and on....
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:24:59 PM
I think you forgot to change screen names. LOL.
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 4:41:03 PM
Lol? No mystery here. Poco's my husband. I'm having trouble posting with FireFox and switched to IE. He stays logged in on that browser, and I forgot to login with my un.
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/12/2008 9:49:01 AM
Because people have a pathological need to inflict terrible suffering on others and many of them want nothing more than to see people they dislike suffer horrible pain?
Torture has always and always will produce less effective methods than due process. Generally people who argue for torture's effectiveness are ignoring a lot of the data from the ground.
Perhaps you just want to harm people? In any case, we've used torture on plenty of innocent people in Guantanamo. Please explain, no matter how guilty any terrorists we've picked up are, how it's fair to torture any innocents in the pursuit of honest justice.
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Posted By: farneyblakeley @ 12/12/2008 4:05:54 AM
In a country where Football and Mixed Martial Arts are top entertainment you ask that question?
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/12/2008 11:07:36 AM
Hey, I love MMA and I don't support torture. MMA is a fair fight. Those guys are in there voluntarily and there are ground rules, which is everything the Iraq War hasn't been.
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Posted By: cflare @ 12/12/2008 12:45:33 PM
Ground rules and Geneva were thrown into the window (haha), when the terrorists did on 9/11.
Not saying we should torture. Just saying, don't be surprised when soldiers capture a suspected terrorist and beat them into a little sh** on the ground.
I find it funny that people who have never experienced war can look down on a soldier that does something wrong under that much due stress and seeing his fellows blown into smithereens.
Again, not saying we shouldn't punish our soldiers for doing wrong. I'm only saying, you have to realize that war is dirty, and no one can stay clean in a war.-
Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:10:17 PM
"Ground rules and Geneva were thrown into the window (haha), when the terrorists did on 9/11."
So, your constitution just wasn't strong enough to handle a crisis? Shame, that.
Just stop pretending to be a force for good in the world, okay? -
Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 12/12/2008 3:45:29 PM
Except that the pris0oners being waterboarded are NOt being waterboardied int eh heat of combat. They are being tortured (and regardless of when the US decided to call it torture, it was always torture) under controlled circumstances. BIG difference.
Also, just because the Geneva Convention may or may not specifically state terrorists (and there are many reknonwed international legal experts who say it does cover terrorists since it was meant to cover war and the defintion of war has changed to the point where terrorism IS an act of war, even of there is not a recognized nation involved) does nt excuse the use of an interrogation method that is undeniably torture.
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Posted By: karela @ 12/12/2008 1:56:53 AM
The top U.S. interrogator wrote a book about interrogation. He and his team had the best results of anyone doing interrogations of terrorist suspects. They never used torture. He says that it is the least effective way to get valuable information. Why do we always assume that the most brutal methods work best. They don't, and it's been proven.
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/12/2008 11:11:57 AM
Yup, torture degrades the quality of information, as the many false positives from people looking to escape the pain make it difficult to trust any information obtained by that method. Intelligence officers the world over will mostly tell you that due process is the way to go.
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Posted By: lvUSAproud @ 12/11/2008 11:21:07 PM
if you think this ok then don't open your mouth when you hear about all the ways our men and women are tortured. People like you live in every country in the world. It is wrong here and wrong there. Lets not set low standards, we are suppose to be above that.
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 12:05:07 AM
Sorry to disappoint you, but terrorists will slit your throat in a New York second if they get the chance, no matter how we treat them.
BTW, the military no longer uses the practice of water boarding.-
Posted By: farneyblakeley @ 12/12/2008 4:07:24 AM
Why do you assume the person is addressing what the terrorists think of us? The question you mental midget is what do we think of ourselves and how are we viewed around the world???
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 9:10:12 AM
You're laughable! It's a known fact that these people preach hate to their children from birth. You think they want to play nice. I think Bill Clinton tried thought that.. .over and over and over.
By your logic, 9/11 was our fault. Facts really bother you, don't they?
Where do you come off with your arrogant assumptions? I again mention some facts, and you associate me with Ann Coulter? Tell me where one word of my post was off base!
It's beginning to appear you prefer coffee with the terrorists....-
Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 10:35:43 AM
OReilly, Coulter, Limbaugh, all sprinkle a few facts on their propahanda in order to appear legitimate. The end result is the same.
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Posted By: Diva433 @ 12/12/2008 2:57:21 PM
If you want to use facts Mr. or Mrs. Shaylashan, then please actually state some instead of giving your personal opinions. Your posts might just cease being commented on if you do so.
Again, give something to this discussion, I am thisty for knowledge.-
Posted By: Pocolodi @ 12/12/2008 4:19:22 PM
I have stated facts, and posted links Mr. or Mrs. Diva, which is more than you've done. You simply don't care to see them. Some hard facts on where we were and where we are regarding water boarding:
"On September 6, 2006, the U.S. Department of Defense released a revised Army Field Manual entitled Human Intelligence Collector Operations that prohibits the use of waterboarding by U.S. military personnel."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding-
Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:24:32 PM
Whoops! Looks like someone got their multiple screen names confused! LOL.
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Posted By: Diva433 @ 12/12/2008 3:02:32 PM
You act as if you will not be teaching your children to hate Muslims because you think they are terrorists.
I agree, by the way, that you truly are the least arrogant person in this discussion.
I applaud your decision to be so withheld, and prude on the issue that is being discussed.
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 9:14:36 AM
Once again, I stated a fact. I simply commented that they will behave in a barbaric manner no matter what.
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Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 12/12/2008 10:05:00 AM
Just because they are barbaric animals does nto mean that we need to even start going down that road ourselves. The US was supposed to be better than that. All that these techniques ahve done is put our trrops are greater risk AND totally voided any right that the US had to call others on human rights violations. It is a matter of relative guilt. One expects the Arab nations and religious extremeists to act like animals, and use vile and barbaric methods. One does nto expect a civilized nation at the top of the game to use ANY form of torture. Mild tortue in the US's hands is the same as severe torture in Arab /Extremeist hands because they have no place among the civlized nations anymore.
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Posted By: cflare @ 12/12/2008 12:40:07 PM
How do you think America got to the 'top of the game'. Certainly not by using 'civil' methods. The Japanese in WWII, anyone?
We make mistakes, this is obviously one of them. If you want to throw Bush in prison, you'd have to throw Congress in, and half of your American presidents as well.-
Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:07:45 PM
"How do you think America got to the 'top of the game'. Certainly not by using 'civil' methods. The Japanese in WWII, anyone?"
Aer you suggesting the Americans were in the habit of torturing POWs during WWII? You have evidence of this? No, it was Tojo's forces that tortured prisoners, and now Tojo's regime is where it belongs...on the ash heap of history.
"We make mistakes, this is obviously one of them. If you want to throw Bush in prison, you'd have to throw Congress in, and half of your American presidents as well."
Sounds like a plan.
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Posted By: Diva433 @ 12/12/2008 10:49:32 AM
Please state a relevant fact to the discussion that you have started in your reply then. Please continue explaining why you think torture is effective, and you stated that it was earlier, when several posters that are in our armed forces have told that they are trained to lie when tortured.
It is the same in every country, and I seem to vaguely remember news of alqueda saying something along those same lines. Torture does not work. It just makes angry countrymen (From all over the world) feel better. It convinces them that the person they are torturing is now truly paying for their supposed crimes,; whether they committed them or not and whether or not they have been tortured previously. In other words, a person that is believed to have committed a crime against you personally or your country is not truly punished until YOU (general you. I'm not talking to anyone personally in that statement.) punish them. I know from personal experience how that feels and I can tell you (again general) truthfully that I would never torture. I would want to die for making another human go through so much pain, because trust me nearly drowning hurts and terrifies beyond all belief; again personal experience.
So getting back to what I said at the beginning of my post please don't post random facts and leave your argument behind. If you start something please act your age Mr. or Miss Shanshayla and finish it. It really doesn't support your argument that torture is ok because terrorists would slash a person???s throat in a minute if they were of American or European descent. So would Serial killers in your (general) state. Again, it is human nature to kill and torture, but just because we can does not mean that it is effective. Killing every guy that reminds you of your ex-boyfriend would not help you get over him; and torturing every Muslim that we believe to be a terrorist will not reverse 9/11, give us credible information on Alqueada, or make us truly fell any better after all of the losses we've suffered, and after all of the hard times that we are going through now.
Just because some of us think torture is wrong does not mean that we think terrorists are wonderful people or that we do not want them to answer to what they've done and be punished for it. We also do not think silly ideas like having tea or coffee with terrorists will yield results. We just think torture yields unreliable information, and is something that a human being should not be put through.
I hope those of you who agree with this torture aren't angered by this post, because I'm sure you are wonderful people. You have the right not to change your (general) opinion; I just hope that you (general) do. I also hope that everyone has learned a bit more about the human mind today. if not then I still enjoyed writing this post and I hope that everyone reading it has a wonderful day/night depending on the time you read it.
sincerely, Diva -
Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 10:23:12 AM
An irrelevant fact, but a fact, indeed.
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 10:24:50 AM
"BTW, the military no longer uses the practice of water boarding."
So what? If a bank robber defended himself by stating "I no longer rob banks", he'd still go to prison, yes?-
Posted By: cflare @ 12/12/2008 12:37:29 PM
That's different.
It's more like saying someone robbed banks before we decided it was wrong to rob banks.
In which case, he didn't commit a crime.-
Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:05:53 PM
Odd, considering you prosecuted Japanese officers for waterboarding. Also, your amendment VIII forbids such activities as a restriction on your government, not a right claimed by the people.
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Posted By: Diva433 @ 12/12/2008 2:49:23 PM
in your statement you're saying that it was "before we decided that robing banks waswrong" and you're comparing this to the torture situation correct? We as a global community have already decided that torture is wrong, and illegal EVERYWHERE. This has been the case FOR DECADES. so no, it is not different.
so in affect the people who ordered this torture saying "I'm not ordering that torture currently," have already committed the crime, and should pay the price for having committed it, just as the geneva convention records state they should be punished.
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 1:13:20 PM
"BTW, the military no longer uses the practice of water boarding."
Oh and the military under W has been so honest with US citizens we just have to believe that's true.-
Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 3:11:45 PM
You want this to be true so bad that you want Bush to admit to the continued use of water boarding. They told the world they used water boarding, and have also said they've stopped. Please offer a link to the continued use of water boarding... don't tell us what you want to believe!
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:04:15 PM
They said the US military has stopped. That still leaves the CIA, and rendition.
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Posted By: Diva433 @ 12/12/2008 10:55:59 AM
Please state a relevant fact to the discussion that you have started in your reply then. Please continue explaining why you think torture is effective, and you stated that it was earlier, when several posters that are in our armed forces have told that they are trained to lie when tortured.
It is the same in every country, and I seem to vaguely remember news of alqueda saying something along those same lines. Torture does not work. It just makes angry countrymen (From all over the world) feel better. It convinces them that the person they are torturing is now truly paying for their supposed crimes,; whether they committed them or not and whether or not they have been tortured previously. In other words, a person that is believed to have committed a crime against you personally or your country is not truly punished until YOU (general you. I'm not talking to anyone personally in that statement.) punish them. I know from personal experience how that feels and I can tell you (again general) truthfully that I would never torture. I would want to die for making another human go through so much pain, because trust me nearly drowning hurts and terrifies beyond all belief; again personal experience.
So getting back to what I said at the beginning of my post please don't post random facts and leave your argument behind. If you start something please act your age Mr. or Miss Shanshayla and finish it. It really doesn't support your argument that torture is ok because terrorists would slash a person???s throat in a minute if they were of American or European descent. So would Serial killers in your (general) state. Again, it is human nature to kill and torture, but just because we can does not mean that it is effective. Killing every guy that reminds you of your ex-boyfriend would not help you get over him; and torturing every Muslim that we believe to be a terrorist will not reverse 9/11, give us credible information on Alqueada, or make us truly fell any better after all of the losses we've suffered, and after all of the hard times that we are going through now.
Just because some of us think torture is wrong does not mean that we think terrorists are wonderful people or that we do not want them to answer to what they've done and be punished for it. We also do not think silly ideas like having tea or coffee with terrorists will yield results. We just think torture yields unreliable information, and is something that a human being should not be put through.
I hope those of you who agree with this torture aren't angered by this post, because I'm sure you are wonderful people. You have the right not to change your (general) opinion; I just hope that you (general) do. I also hope that everyone has learned a bit more about the human mind today. if not then I still enjoyed writing this post and I hope that everyone reading it has a wonderful day/night depending on the time you read it.-
Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 3:13:35 PM
Running over someone in your car is certainly effective if you want to kill someone. That doesn't mean I advocate it.
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 10:18:26 AM
That's idiot logic. At some point anyone will say anything under those conditions. You know you will never be released, what does it matter what's you confess to? Look at the confessions coerced from US soldiers when they have fought in SE Asia. What's their confession worth?
Think for yourself sheeple, don't just repeat the repub b/s.
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Posted By: blackspeak @ 12/12/2008 7:58:05 AM
I am all for waterboarding, if America is all for beheading US troops, on video. Whats good for the goose should be good for the gander.
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Posted By: roroes @ 12/12/2008 4:21:38 PM
You are a troglodyte, to put it soft...
America has to stand for human rights and for actual use of brains and intelligence, not brutal force.
Brutal force is so passé, like from the Ice Age you surely come from.
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Posted By: stevenchao @ 12/11/2008 10:07:37 PM
bigjohnv is absolutely correct. Since this interrogation method is so effective and legal, we should apply it to our standard practice. We can use it on possible crimal to confess on their crime. We can use it on gang members to fess up their leaders. We can use this technique on drug traffickers to give up their bosses. Heck we can use it on our politician to see if they are telling the truth or not!! Hey, I know, I can use this on your boy who is dating my daughter!!!!
I think we have something here. Lets roll with this.-
Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/11/2008 11:09:08 PM
Really? None of the people you mentioned, including the boy who dates your daughter, killed 3000 innocent people by flying commercial jets into buildings. But please, you sit down with them over tea and crumpets and ask them politely how they intend to hit us again. I'm sure they'll tell you everything you want to know.
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Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/12/2008 8:32:23 AM
And, on the other hand, you want to lower us to their level...animals.
How nice.-
Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 9:11:33 AM
Where did I say that?
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Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/12/2008 10:04:50 AM
You're advocating torture, and saying that the only alternative is "tea and crumpets".
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 4:11:24 PM
No, I didn't. That was one alternative. Do you have others?
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Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 12/12/2008 10:07:24 AM
You said it when you mentioned that the terrorists engaed in the acts they did. Inteligence would require one to recognize that regardless of how vile a crime committed, there is never justification for the government to engage in torture.
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 10:11:58 AM
And how many innocent Iraqis have been killed by W? Way more than 3000.
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 4:10:43 PM
You couldn't address the issue in front of you if you were forced to. We were discussing water boarding, not Iraq. This is so common for you. When cornered, divert!
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 12:42:37 PM
If it's effective AND morally sound, then why not use it on your regular criminals?
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 3:03:49 PM
You're half right. Where did I say it was morally sound?
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 4:03:14 PM
I notice you didn't answer the question. Hardly a surprise, from the party of Palin.
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Posted By: ladybastet @ 12/12/2008 3:47:26 AM
DEAR JESUS! What are you Ann Coulter's best coffee shop bud? There is something SERIOUSLY wrong with you!
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 9:03:52 AM
Facts really bother you, don't they?
Where do you come off with your arrogant assumptions? I again mention some facts, and you associate me with Ann Coulter? Tell me where one word of my post was off base!
It's beginning to appear you prefer coffee with the terrorists....-
Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/12/2008 10:05:33 AM
"It's beginning to appear you prefer coffee with the terrorists...."
False dilemma. We are not required to choose between terrorist freaks and turture freaks.-
Posted By: cflare @ 12/12/2008 12:34:57 PM
Looking back through Shanshayla's posts, she never does condone the use of waterboarding.
She's only stated three things.
1. That the terrorists committed 9/11.
2. That the only KNOWN use of waterboarding occured to three terrorists and the public info is that we stopped using it.
3. That there's no factual basis the for the accounts that we've supposedly used it on 1000s of innocents.
Therefore she's her false dilemma isn't between torture and terrorists. Her false dliemma is between choosing to renounce all forms of intel, using only peace talks, and the decisions we've made thus far to use waterboarding a few times and quit. Which isn't a false dilemma.
She's asking you to choose between no intel, and some intel. She's not asking you to choose to torture or peace-talk.
So your false dilemma argument is actually a straw man, because you're misrepresenting her to make it look like she committed a false dilemma, then knocking down her argument with your false dilemma.
In retrospect, you're forcing her into a false dilemma.
Here's how:
You've asked her to either believe that we've tortured 1000s of innocents with water-boarding, -OR- she's a barbaric neo-con.
That's sounds more like a faulty dilemma to me.-
Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 12:41:02 PM
Who has said that the only alternative to torture is peace talks?
Oh, yes. You and her. As was stated, a false dilemma.-
Posted By: cflare @ 12/12/2008 1:01:30 PM
Oh yes, my post explecitively stated.... torture, or peace talks.
NO I DID NOT.
Counter-intel, intel, survel, all forms of intel that is not torture and hella-better than peace talks.
Her statement is that three uses of water-boarding does not consitute an epidemic of torture... and you claim she means torture or peace talks.
That's simply not true. Then when I offer a third option, you claim I'm also stating the same faulty dilemma.... get off of your straw man tactics, please.
You're creating a worse faulty dilemma than you CLAIM Sham is.-
Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 1:28:41 PM
Your own words:
"Her false dliemma is between choosing to renounce all forms of intel, using only peace talks, and the decisions we've made thus far to use waterboarding a few times and quit. Which isn't a false dilemma."
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Posted By: arturro47 @ 12/12/2008 12:56:28 PM
There is nothing wrong with the use of the aformentioned methods as lon as you admit it and strongly defend your principles. However, the goverment is preaching one thing and doing another. You can not hope to be perceived as the ultimate moral authority and defenders of freedom and human dignity, when in a blink of an eye you are willing to retract all your statements and break all the rules, just to maintain the status quo and tip the scale in your favor. Once you have taken a stand, you have to stick to it and treat everyone the same. Hypocrisy, plain and simple. Its all about the best interest of the state, ita always has been.
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 3:53:37 PM
"There is nothing wrong with the use of the aformentioned methods as lon as you admit it and strongly defend your principles. "
In using those methods, America betrayed their principles.
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Posted By: Larry Linn @ 12/12/2008 3:39:37 PM
In Vietnam, sometimes we would sit around during dinner and create lies, which we would tell, if we were captured and tortured by the NVA. We thought that if one of us were captured, others would become POW???s as well. My favorite one was that the Photography/Mapping air craft which would fly at night with strobe lights. We would claim that those lights were actually X-Rays which detected troops in underground tunnels. We would advise the NVA to have their troops flee out of the caves, out into the open so that the caves would not be detected. All of us knew that we would support this under torture, so that our enemy would be confused. When I was at Ft. Ord hospital recovering from being shot, another wounded vet, said that they would make up stories together as well. I have less that absolute faith in what is coerced from POW???s.
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 3:05:45 PM
http://www.newsweek.com/id/173651
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Posted By: arturro47 @ 12/12/2008 1:10:57 PM
What do we expect from a country which still puts people to death( Capital punishment anyone). There are no exceptions or excuses for people with strong moral backbone. We betrayed everything we believe in. Its gonna tak a long time for us to rebulid foundation. Apathy and lack of interest on the side of the publlic opinion, that is the biggest problem and tragedy.
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Posted By: LiberalsLoveLogic @ 12/12/2008 5:27:29 AM
My how we have devolved in the past 50 years. We denounced these techniques in the 1950s and emplow them today. Then again, bach then we were always "the good guys." No we are the "get our way or else guys." This is without a doubt cruel and unusual treatment. The only way the Bush Administration was able to get away with it was by doing it on foreign soil, hence Guantanamo. This will go down as one of the most shameful episodes in U.S. history and George Bush along with it as one of the most shameful Presidents the American people have ever know.
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/12/2008 10:29:25 AM
I think there's great hope. I marvel at the fact that the rest of the world still cheered on any American presidential candidate this year or that they realize that just about half the country completely opposes this. I feel a tremendous excitement that they still know that there is a large part of the country that does want to see us achieve peace, prosperity, and kinship with those nations across the world who are interested in doing this, and hold out hope for the rest. Because we can work on this now - those in power in Congress and the Presidency now have stated their desire to return to international law and compassion.
We all can help heal America's foreign policy. Keep supporting multilateralism and better global cooperation and compassion and oppose torture around the world. Remember, the Republicans ran McCain this year because they HAD to run a moderate to have any hope at all of winning the election. They were down to their core. They had alienated moderates and independent-leaning voters nearly universally and these kinds of actions are the reason why. Most of the country isn't on board for this.
We will have to face the consequences of Iraq, just as there still will be a reckoning for Vietnam as well. We will have to look into our crimes squarely in the eye and see what we must do to atone, or face the consequences to our own psyches. These things go deep.
But with Obama's help and that of the other progressives involved in this, I think we can do it.-
Posted By: cflare @ 12/12/2008 11:54:21 AM
Vietnam wasn't a crime.
The crime was how the soldiers were treated when they returned home.
We're still perpetuating this criminal mistreatment and degregation to returning soldiers today.
We still haven't learned from Vietnam.
War is war. The only reason Vietnam was the first to recieve such backlash, it because it was the first to have reporters get live video and stay so close to the action. If we had the same information technology during WWI, you would have considered that war a crime too.
The fact is that you live in a country that had spilled blood to stay on top in the world. There is no way a nation or power can be in the position we are in without war.
So stop acting like America just recently became barbaric and that your enlightenment ideals are the way of the future. There's been much research into how effective passivism is at maintaining peace.... news flash, it's not.
There is no such thing as a blameless 'good guys' nation. However, when you compare our history to north korea or iraq.... those places were the 'TRAVESTY'..... yeah, we're pretty clean in comparison.
But don't you ever think we were or will ever be 'wholly good'.-
Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 1:01:29 PM
Vietnam was a crime beause they wouldn't let the troops win, they wanted it to drag on and on.
It's a shame that staying-on-top hype has ruined your humanity, assuming you had any to begin with.
History is full of acts with the theory that "the ends justify the means." It's as flawed today as it was back then. Only morons repeat the mistakes shown in history. Them and C average students from Yale.
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Posted By: DoctorLady @ 12/12/2008 7:51:21 AM
First, we can all agree that waterboarding and other "exreme methods of interrogation" are torture. The issue is whether or not the USA can or should use torture. Legally, we Americans cannot. However, those who broke the law and ordered others to break the law claim they thought torture was effective. However, the military's own psychologists spent decades teaching our own soldiers, sailors, and airmen how to resist it by lying. At West Point, the US Army Military Academy, Professors teach future officiers that torture is ALWAYS illegal, wrong, and INEFFECTIVE. If ordered to torture, it is an unlawful order, and you must refuse it. The UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) is very clear on this. Torture is wrong and it doesn't work.
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 8:20:10 AM
Do a little background.... we don't use the practice anymore.
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Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/12/2008 8:28:38 AM
That's like saying, "We've taken a break from beating our wives".
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 12/12/2008 9:15:53 AM
Show us a credible link, not what you want to believe.
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Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/12/2008 10:02:38 AM
A credible link to what?
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 10:44:26 AM
Gee you've offered as many links as he has. It appears you're even.
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Posted By: cflare @ 12/12/2008 11:45:37 AM
The OP has the burden of proof, since he made the original claims.
The respondant simply asked for proof.-
Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 12:51:14 PM
Doesn't alter the fact that Shan applies a double standard.
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Posted By: Mimi611 @ 12/12/2008 12:31:28 PM
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld should be tried as war criminals. It doesn't matter what contry one is from....war crimes are war crimes.
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Posted By: jnakhoul @ 12/12/2008 11:39:25 AM
theres a big difference between soldiers being used as test rats and opposition soldiers who are willing to die for a cause they believe in. waterboarding would be 100 effective on me because i don't give a damn
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Posted By: edburns123 @ 12/12/2008 11:18:52 AM
The mere fact that the United States implements any type of torture is a travesty and brings great shame on what was once a great nation.
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/12/2008 10:48:58 AM
God, I miss the 90's, when the biggest discussion about inhumanity involved Rodney King and some thuggish L.A. cops, or O.J. Simpson and a Ford Bronco.
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Posted By: BOFORCE @ 12/11/2008 11:51:14 PM
CIA+MOSSAD+MI5=ALQUAIDA(The simple mathametics of terrorism)....Al quaida is false flag terror organistaion.....the poor people who are caught as terrorists don't know the reality of Al QUAIDA.
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Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/12/2008 10:45:00 AM
Bush failed math.
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/12/2008 10:25:57 AM
Home of the free, land of the brave. Or words to that effect.
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Posted By: oscarlei @ 12/12/2008 5:35:48 AM
This is not new. American forces occupying the Philippines in the early 1900's also employed various torture on Filipinos fighting American occupation.
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/12/2008 10:20:56 AM
Indeed. This war has a lot of similarities to that conflict, particularly if one takes a look at William Randolph Hearst and Rupert Murdoch and their media companies' roles in fostering these war.
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/12/2008 10:00:23 AM
Those advocating for torture on this thread have failed to answer something satisfactory here: what condones the use of torture agaisnt those people who turned out to be innocent after all? Even the Bush administration admits that a sizable portion of our detainees have not turned out to have committed truly serious offenses against America.
So what makes it right that we tortured innocents while attempting to extract information from those who were not? Can anything really excuse the torture of innocents, no matter what the offenses of the guilty were?
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Posted By: sieg6529 @ 12/12/2008 9:35:59 AM
so waterboarding is only wrong when it is done to Americans, not by Americans? Whether or not torture is effecitve is irrelevant; it is beneath us as Americans in the 21st century. Leave such barbaric behavior in the past, where it belongs.
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Posted By: Larry Linn @ 12/11/2008 9:55:47 PM
Why would anyone balme former Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld? He is a chickenhawk, appointed by President Chaney, and Vice President Bush. He knows nothing about warefare.
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Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/12/2008 8:32:56 AM
Neither did Himmler.
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